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>Also, the more we label the things that make us seperate from one another, the more separated we become as a whole. The paradox is that the people who are pushing for these labels are doing so in the name of inclusion.
I've said that many times before, i fully agree.
I really think people are forgetting personalities exist. I have a friend who is Alexigender or something, basically they change from female to male to nb but don't know what they are going to be on any given day. My issue is though, every 6 months they say they're a new gender identity or sexuality. They are such a wonderful friend, i care a lot about them and I'll always support them, but i really don't get it and don't fully agree with it
Cause my issue is, I'm a gay male, but I'm not massively into sex, don't really like nude guys. Also i have a few things that are "womens" clothes (no one can tell their womens, they're generic clothing but from the womens aisle), I'm getting a floralesque wallpaper, i prefer floral/fruity notes in smells, i know nothing about sports and cars, and i love baking. Does any of that mean i am not gay or not a man though? No. I'm still a gay man, because of my personality I'm my version of a gay man. Not an asexual, homoromantic, gender fluid person.
I completely agree with this. Non binary is part of the cult of narcissism, it’s an attention seeking trend and extremely cringe. It borrows terms like “coming out” from the language of LGBT people which is offensive because those people are genuinely oppressed and marginalised whereas being “non binary” is a fake oppression created by people who clearly do too much navel gazing. It’s an ideology and a desire to make yourself seem special or unique, when in reality being gender non conforming and/or androgynous has been around for a long time.
as a kid it always bothered me when i was treated like one of the boys. i didnt see myself as a typical boy, nor did i wanna be a girl. i just wanted to be me and not labelled. and it is still like that. so does that make me non-binary? i guess it should.. but i still prefer 'he' over 'they'. that feels alienating and weirdly impersonal to me. i feel like my sex does not in any way define who i am or how i should be treated. but i do understand that non-binary is a real thing and that some people just dont identify with 'he' or 'she'. in the end who are we to ever judge how someone feels? of course it is a trend right now, which to me is always kind of an insult to people who actually feel that way..
I just stay away from this particular issue because I don't understand it but don't want to insult anyone that feels genuine about this.
My lack of understanding doesn't mean it's not real for them.
I think nothing.
Fear of offending is creating a massive social divide in society.
It's almost like as a marginalized group who had to justify our existence to people who "didn't understand us" taught folks nothing.
If you don't understand something, do research or admit you're too clueless to have a strong opinion. Having strong opinions on topics you are openly ignorant about is what bigots do.
Anyway, I agree. I don't understand entirely, but I support wholeheartedly. Make life easier for the next generation, not harder.
It's almost like being a marginalized group doesn't mean you are required to suspend your faculties of reason and/or validate everything under the sun.
Ah yes the old school method of, "I got mine, fuck you".
Validating someone's identity requires almost nothing. Be better.
>Validating someone's identity requires almost nothing. Be better.
It's not a human right to have your "identity validated". Mindlessly supporting something you admit to not even having bothered to look deeply into out of a misguided desire to want to be inclusive of everything is not the woke, progressive stance you think it is.
That's how you wind up with male rapists being put in women's prisons, male athletes on women's sports teams, lesbians being sexually harassed into sucking dick and gay/gnc children being put on puberty blockers and sterilized.
Lol time to get out my woke bingo card. Nobody is required to entertain any delusion. I don't entertain the delusions of creationists and I certainly won't start now with so-called "gender" when sex is objectively binary and immutable.
you really fucked yourself by using the words “objectively binary” because like, lmfao no it isn’t.
Homie tried to sound smart. They're just one of those idiot gays who while on PReP will end up contracting some other kind of incurable superbug. He already made 100+ comments in random subreddits to bury his transphobic tirade.
Learn your history kids!
Meanwhile before you were born they locked us up for same sex attraction and let us die in droves during the last pandemic.
Just 40 years ago, to the majority of people, sexuality was seen the exact same way you're speaking about gender identity.
Enjoy your short sighted life.
I feel very similarly. I don't necessarily understand it, when I first had some people in my life using gender neutral pronouns was about 10 heads ago? Mostly Ze, Zer, Zirs back then. I found it kind of strange, but the people using them weren't hurting anyone and it wasn't very difficult for me to adapt.
In more recent years when folks started using they/them I found it pretty easy to adjust. I'm not attached to language things or pronouns and I prefer to refer to people by what they prefer.
I've known some people that are very femme or very masculine that use they/them. I don't necessarily understand it... But I never felt I needed to understand in order to respect.
It's not real honestly... In nature as we know it there's male, female and nature makes mistakes from time to time when you end up born say with both genitals or you may be a female in your mind but your body is a male or vice versa nature does make mistakes. But this no gender stuff is just a bunch of people forcing their wants and beliefs on everyone else. The government goes along with it to appease them because they hope they'll get their votes when it comes time for the next election.
Yes finally someone that thinks like me lol! I fully agree. I also feel that it creates a victim mindset and division between people vs unity.
Nature gave us two things - male and female - for a reason. It goes along with the rest of the universe ie yin yang, negative and positive. In life there is no grey area except for one offs that happen rarely. If you don't like what you're born with , suck it up. Maybe we should just count our blessings every day to be alive and see the sun.
I hope this me me me fad ends soon it's beyond ridiculous. Yeah everyone is their own individual and that's fine but these small groups are totally overpowering the majority of the rest of us with these crazy demands. The wants and needs of the few people are not more important than and do not over power the wants and needs of the many people. We all need to get along and coexist. Yes there's never going to be a perfect coexistence but there can be something that's acceptable and mostly comfortable for just about everyone.
So you don't believe in them.
What's your point, do you propose that we discriminate against non-binary that want to be acknowledged as non-binary?
I think choosing tolerance and acceptance is the right path.
Where anywhere in my response did I say to discriminate anyone? Be who the hell you want to be but don't force your wants and beliefs on others. It's fine to explain them to people but shoving it down everyone's throat is way too much...
The thing is, no one's individual personality corresponds 100% to prescribed gender roles; therefore, **everyone** is non-binary. And if everyone is non-binary, it's not really a term that provides any particularly meaningful distinction.
I'm all for gender non-conformity. What's curious to me is why GenZ seems to have such a strong need to find new boxes into which to put themselves. That, to me, is the social phenomenon that bears investigating. The GenX ethos was about rejecting labels. GenZ seems to be frantically inventing new labels and clinging to them. There has to be some underlying reason for that.
Fantastic take. The corrolary of NB is a kind of gender essentialism. The logic is that a person stops being a man or a woman because they do something that doesn't conform with their gender. I thought our whole point was that men can still be men and like the color pink or do ballet or something. This all seems like a step backwards to me. NB also seems to conflate gender with emotions/feelings. I don't "feel" male. I hardly ever think about it. My gender identity operates silently in the background. I feel like people who claim NB think they are NB only because they don't have this burning conscious thought of "I am a man/woman" everyday. But hardly anyone does.
Also, NB plays on some of the most fundamental assumptions and stereotypes of each gender. Am I a man because I feel aggressive one day? Am I a woman because I cry another day. Do I negate my own gender by merely doing something perceived as gendered?
I struggled for ages with being a "man" and wondered, due to this uprise in different genders and such, if i wasn't a man. But i realised no, i just had bad connotations of what it meant to be a man due to many bad men in my life, so i was happy being me, but not like them, that was nothing to do with being a man. It is all quite backwards, non-gendered things are entirely gendered. And to show how similar we are we are desperate to find all the ways in which we are different.
>I thought our whole point was that men can still be men and like the color pink or do ballet or something.
>Also, NB plays on some of the most fundamental assumptions and stereotypes of each gender
We're on the same wavelength, so let me phrase it as a question: Who is more obsessed with gender and how everything (style, behavior, feelings, etc...) must be gendered than the people who promote these new gender identities? Who demands that it all be formalized such that any breach of gender etiquette becomes some kind of mortal social sin?
And you've gotten to the heart of it with the mention of stereotypes because, as far as I've been able to think through the question, you can't really define gender identity without basing that definition on rather startlingly old-fashioned gender role stereotypes.
Bingo! But it's being "progressive" to reinforce this bullshit. Fuck off
Because they want to be seen, heard, and recognized. In an era of social media where normality gets drowned out in favor of viral clips/videos/outfits/bodies/etc., there is a stronger need to stand out from the crowd that is fueling the brains of this generation. Again, I blame social media for all of this.
> Again, I blame social media for all of this.
I worry about sounding like too much of a grumpy old man, but I do think that those of us who grew up in real life -- because there was nothing else -- are far less neurotic about all this. Getting validated by large groups of people wasn't something that commonly happened to many of us, so it wasn't something we felt we needed. We weren't constantly trying to turn our lives into media products to be consumed by our peers.
Before social media, all you had to care about is what your family and close friends, maybe town thought of you. The people immediately around you.
now people think you have to care about what the entire world thinks of you. Crazy.
Oh God…I’m only 26 so now I feel conscious of sounding like a grumpy old man lol.
But I absolutely agree nonetheless. I never grew up with the mentality to chase after validation from others. I only validate myself.
Unironically it's related to capitalism and the marketing of identities
This x 100.
I completely understand the non-binary identity and honestly it’s not that absurd to use they/them pronouns. We already regularly do that whenever we’re not sure of someone’s gender but still need a pronoun to refer to them.
What I don’t understand are the miscellaneous genders and neo-pronouns. I think neo-pronouns are functionally just nicknames. And to be blunt, I don’t appreciate people co-opting lgbt acceptance in order to essentially ask people “hey I don’t like being referred to with pronouns, they’re too vague, so could you just use this abbreviated nickname instead since it refers specifically to me and not other people?” and honestly, that would be fine, because it has nothing to do with gender. Sure, you could be non-binary and ask this of people, but it’s not really about being non-binary because if it were, you’d opt for they/them like 98% of other non-binary people and leave it at that.
Does anyone remember the Internet era of 2014-2018 when there was a trend of young women identifying as bisexual, but when describing their sexuality, many of them would just flat out say “I’d never have sex with a woman or date a woman romantically because I have no desire to, but I’m bisexual because I can appreciate feminine beauty and sexuality” and it just kinda left everyone else straight, gay, and bi just kinda sitting there scratching our heads? You know, because that sounds oxymoronic? There was no difference between those bi women and straight women, and yet they still tried to draw a distinction between themselves and other straight women. In reality, it turned out that all of them just had an obsession with being different. “I’m not like other girls” but as a sexual orientation, basically.
I get *the exact* same impression from xenogenders and neo-pronouns. Functionally and pragmatically speaking, there’s no difference between those and non-binary. By definition, you don’t fit the globally hegemonic gender binary; ergo you’re non-binary. So what’s with xengendered people trying to draw a new distinction when there is no demonstrable or descriptive difference? It seems like a whole bunch of people who don’t like the fact that they/them pronouns are becoming normalized so they need something fresh to “identify” with. Doubly infuriating when you ask these people about lgbt politics and they go on a diatribe about the atrocities of gender roles and Harry Styles wearing a dress, meanwhile conversion therapy is still legal in over 30 states. Meanwhile suicidality among lgbt youth is still sky high. Meanwhile transwomen are getting routinely assaulted and murdered with no justice, even in supposedly lgbt-friendly cities like NYC or LA.
Idk. If you wanna be a gender abolitionist, just say that. If you think gender roles are outdated and cause more harm than good, just say that. There’s no need to identify with a unique gender to hammer that point home. Just seems like a huge waste of political advocacy for 0.00001% of the population.
I read your opinion here and find i agree with a lot. I thought maybe you'd be interested in an alternative take to OPs post, something that aligns more with yours. I refer to myself as non binary and use they/them pronouns. I like being recognized as both male and female in public, which i get a lot (sir, ma'am). I favor an androgynous look and i feel more human and happier this way, rather than being told im a specific gender all the time. Without a doubt, it's from very bad past experiences. I DID want to be the opposite gender from a small age and use to cry myself to sleep about it, but i think it's because my parents favored one over the other my whole life. This kind of trauma is really hard to overcome and not something you can just let go of. Ive taken horomones and it helped my trauma significantly, but i know i'll never truely be born differently. So im choosing to try and feel comfortable any way i can.I think a big misconception many cis people have is that NB people are *simply* gender nonconforming. In fact, many NB people are trans, such as myself. We have taken horomones but choose not to "transition stealthily into the opposite sex". I wish i was the opposite sex, but i don't mind showing how i was born and what ive chosen to do to myself. I think i love myself this way much more than i ever did before. I really hope this side of being non binary can become more accepted, because it's okay to look how you want to look.I, too, don't like the neo-labels, but it doesn't really affect me. And also, (because I'm bisexual) to preserve the LGBT label, I've started separating "LGBT" and "QUEER", for all that might matter. I do wish these labels were separate from LGBT because of the strong history and need for solidarity, not more labels. If you made it this far, thanks for the read and thank you for the genuine reply to OP.
Well, gender nonconformity is not a new thing, and has been around for centuries (often under what we call "third gender" concepts). Some examples include depictions of lord Shiva, as well as gender concepts in North American Indigenous communities.
Believe what you want, but it's not a new thing in the world.
Being gender noncomforming is not the same thing as identifying as non-binary. Non-binary identified people claim to literally not be male or female. Gender noncomforming people simply don't adhere to gender roles. A feminine gay man or a butch lesbian are both gender noncomforming - but neither claims to not be a man or woman, respectively.
Also, third genders such as hijra only exist in patriarchal cultures with strict gender norms. They're a way of moving gender nonconforming and/or gay males into a lower-status caste in order to maintain the gender hierarchy. There is nothing progressive or liberal about it.
being gender nonconforming and being nonbinary are two completely different things though
... and the fact that people jump to gender nonconformity as a gotcha whenever anyone talks about gender identity should be a red flag for the ideology underpinning it all
> the ideology underpinning it all
if defying norms culturally prescribed upon your sex makes you not a man or a woman anymore, that means being a man or a woman is a matter of compliance.
That the concept of biological sex is a social construct that is a byproduct of the western colonialist system of gender, and a person's 'true' sex can only be described in terms of their gender identity, which is their supposedly innate sense of how masculine/feminine they are.
Yeah and those people who claim to not be a man or a woman are dimwits. I hate to be so harsh but after seeing this play out for years now, someone has to be honest about this nonsense. First off, what does it mean to "not identify as a man/woman"? What does that even mean? Because man and woman are not identities, they are sex class, it's literally in their definitions
* Man: (noun) An adult human MALE being.
* Male: of or denoting the SEX that produces small, typically motile gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
* Woman: (noun) An adult human FEMALE being.
* Female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
Notice how "identity" or "gender" has nothing to do with it and that's the main mistake of these lot of people's ridiculousness.
It just doesn’t change the fact that we’re a binary species. You’re either male or female. You either have a penis or a vagina. You have a Y chromosome or you don’t. The only possible biological third gender would be with hermaphroditism, and that does not apply to basically 100% of the people who make up their own gender. Gender and sex are linguistically interchangeable, they have the same definition, and you can be whatever you want to be, but much of that just doesn’t have any basis in biological fact or reality.
THIS. THANK YOU. Finally there are more gay men being truthful about biological material reality. But you're wrong about hermaphrotism, that actually is not a thing in the human species. There is intersex but that is not the same thing and plus, intersex people still fall within the male or female sex class. For example a person born with the intersex condition of Klinefelter syndrome would be a male because the individual possesses a "Y" chromosome (XXY) in his chromosomal makeup. Meanwhile a person born with the intersex condition of Turner Syndrome, this person would be female because they have an absense of a "Y" chromosome (46, XX) in their chromosomal makeup.
Thank you. But hermaphroditism absolutely is a thing in the human species. Genetics are fucking crazy sometimes lol
UPDATE: I woke up today feeling different, and I now identify as non-binary. There is nothing you can do or say to disprove me. My pronouns are Your Majesty/ Your Highness. If you don’t use them, you’re officially a transphobe. Sorry, I don’t make the rules.
NBs rely on gender essentialism to define their identities against. Just listen to any NB person talk about why they ID as NB, and you'll just get a heaping pile of stereotypes.
* [Jonathan Van Ness](https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2019/06/11/queer-eye-star-jonathan-van-ness-says-hes-non-binary/1417254001/): "I’ve been wearing heels and wearing makeup and wearing skirts and stuff for a minute, honey. I just like didn’t know that that meant — that I had a title."
* [Sam Smith](https://www.smoothradio.com/artists/sam-smith/non-binary-gender/): "I do think like a woman sometimes, in my head."
* [Demi Lovato:](https://www.npr.org/2021/05/19/998195086/demi-lovato-comes-out-as-nonbinary) "I was ignoring my truth, and I was suppressing who I really am in order to please stylists, or team members, or this or that, or even fans that wanted me to be the sexy, feminine pop star in the, in the leotard and look a certain way."
All of these people view women in the same way - as hyper-feminine beings who all love high-heels, skirts and makeup. If you're a male person and like these things too, then you're not really a man and must be NB. If you're a female person and *don't* like these things, then you're not really a woman and must be NB. It's just stereotypes through and through.
Very great point, and well articulated! They’re essentially reinforcing gender stereotypes even more so.
Even though I'm a month late, I'll still just say what I have to say.
You are absolutely right. It is not a real thing and never really was. It doesn't help that wherever I see a NB person's argument it directly contradicts another's.
Someone explained to me that gender is a social construct (which would be based on physical sex, since men are physically stronger than women, thus why men are expected, via "social constructs", to do the heavy lifting. They're more powerful), however, I saw a video where another NB person said gender is what you feel instead, which a lot of people agreed with.
I saw a Reddit discussion from a couple of years ago where someone asked how you would even biologically prove NB is real, to which everyone agreed and wondered how you could biologically prove NB since it is a "gender" (I guess a gender where you don't have one).
Yet I stumbled across another Reddit discussion a few days later where someone asked if NB is real, and a lot of the replies were links to biology and how NB is biologically possible.
That's the main reason why I'm so hesitant (downright in refusal basically) to acknowledge NB as a real thing. The arguments change from person-to-person, their entire existence is basically "label me a certain way, although labels are bad and gender is a social construct you should eliminate, also there are 75 different genders so please be respectful of them".
And every time you manage to disprove or question one of their arguments, they just insult you and dismiss you basically. And overall, I wouldn't care so much if you weren't basically pulled into this political discussion every time you went online.
And lastly, the main thing that tells me NB really isn't real, is the fact that the only NB people that exist have the same political beliefs. There are trans democrats, trans republicans, gay democrats, and gay republicans. But have you seen a NB republican?
It's really just a trend people set in 2014 that lots of celebrities capitalize on, and as a comment I saw here said, "lots of people didn't care about their gender or what it meant, but in 2021 they freak out if you don't use they/them".
And lastly, NB people stereotype what men and women are. To the point where it's downright *sexist*. "Oh, well, I'm a woman that doesn't wear high heels or make-up. I do like eating corn dogs and monster trucks, so that means I'm either genderfluid or NB!"
***TLDR;*** Sorry for the rant and basically essay at this point, but the short of it is no, NB isn't real, and a lot of their arguments contradict each other, and the way they dictate that they're NB is a very sexist set of stereotypes.
It just seems like a bunch people who want attn and to be 'special.' cos it appears playing this card is really all they got.
I find it strange that the same person can insist on declaring their gender to be some very specific label, and at the same time believe that genders are a social construct that should be ignored.
I agree. And don’t care what anyone else thinks.
I feel what you are saying. I am still young and have trouble accepting that I'm gay, currently more than ever.. sadly because of school I can't really go out of the way of these new pronoun bs etc. and I find it annoying that bc of such bs people find it harder to accept lgbtq. I'm so done with these people feeling special. I'm not if I like to be part of this weird cancel-culture.. why can't we all be friends
It's mostly attention seeking behavior these days, everyone wants to feel part of some "oppressed and misunderstood minority" to gain sympathy and attention. It's part of the narcissist plague that social media has potentiated during the last decade.
You are either a men or a woman.. if you have gender dysphoria, then you are trans.. that's the end of the story.. the rest is just nonsense at this point.
You can be the most feminine guy around or the more masculine female around but you are still either a man or a woman.Now it seems every kid that likes to do something that is not a macho stereotype from the 50's thinks he must be non-binary, same with the girls. It's like all the advancements of the 20 century that totally killed the stereotypes of what a man or woman should be never happened for Gen Z.. for them the concepts of men and women seem to be the same as in the 50s for some reason.
I also expect to be down voted for this, but I think that it is a valid gender identity but a lot of people adopt it for the quirkiness of it. There's some people that I know that I definitely feel how they struggle with their gender dysphoria and how they don't feel like they fit either gender correctly, and there's a lot others that just want something else to label themselves and feel different
This, a lot of others who want to feel different… and somehow “special”, and then want to be catered to as such, then cite discrimination. It’s exhausting when all we want to do as humans is love one another. Literally, I just want to love another person and enjoy my attraction to them.
*cough* Demi lovato *cough*
I personally think it is ridiculous 90% of the time.
Every girl that's dyed her hair and white gay on Instagram has she/they or he/they in their bio. It is meaningless at this point. Enby is the new emo if you ask me. I have met a few people who actually present as genderqueer but it seems 75% just want to sound more interesting. I've grown up with people that had zero thoughts about not fitting into their gender their entire lives but suddenly in 2021 can't function unless you use they/them. People are confused enough about the LGBT. We want to be accepted as normal but are now bombarding the public with new labels and terms every three weeks. What happened to doing away with labels?
Who is we inhave nothing to do with these freaks
I agree with you. My view is let people refer to themselves how they want. Sex and gender isn't important in most areas of life, but for those that are (e.g., sport), I still think it is vital that sex at birth be used. I draw the line at complaining that **other** people aren't using your preferred pronouns or even misgendering when they don't know you.
What's the difference between non-binary and agender?
Next time I see someone using they/them pronouns I’m calling them an “it”.
Idk, I just think these people haven't had that much human interaction in their life so they try to find something to bond with. Men and women are much more than their gender stereotypes and I believe these folks only reinforce said stereotypes but whatever, I'll just ignore them and move along, don't have time to deal with people collecting identities/sexualities like they're fucking Pokémon cards.
Of course not, and the idea is hugely sexist anyway. Ask those people what their definitions of ‘man’ and ‘woman’ are
Non binary is super in right now because it means absolutely nothing and requires no commitment.
You can literally be a completely and utterly straight and cis "non binary." Which 95% of them literally are. They saw LGBT people FINALLY getting deference in society and adapted non Binary for the same reasons a child throws a fit on a siblings birthday.
It's just **androgyny.**
You got my upvote 👍👍
My only issue is switching pronouns for only them and they get so unnecessarily ratchet when you may not always remember to use the one they essentially assigned for themselves.
Yeah I would never bother to remember to use specific pronouns for them. Especially if they correct people all the time. It is to ingrained in me to use she he.
Good for you. I think your refusal would just mean that non-binary folks won’t want to be friends with you. If that’s okay with you, then you’re all set. If you want some non-binary friends, you may want to work on this.
Same. Theres only two genders out there.
I feel the exact same actually 💯
I also struggle a lot to understand how someone is non binary tbh
The fact this is a 'reported post' is telling. This 'non-binary' cult thinks they have the right to silence people for stating commonly held opinions just because they don't like them.
I love the person who created this post.
As a gay man what bothers me the most about nb is the lack of knowledge of their part. I remember when being gay, lesbian or transgender has serious consequences deadly consequences even. As year progresses we fought very hard to be recognized and have rights, transgender people fought very hard to be allowed to legally change their sex box on government forms those were real battles that had to be fought. Now these people came with the they/them (which doesn’t make any sense in regards of vocabulary etc) and suddenly everything is offensive, everything is canceled… and if you disagree they want to literally eat you alive
You're so right about this. The extreme sensitivity of so many people who are delusional about their genitalia only makes the movement even more detached from reality.
To be fair like 99% of non-binary people use they/them/theirs pronouns, not neo-pronouns.
They, them sounds more like a personality disorder such as multiple personalities. Just FYI.
You know being gay was once considered a mental illness, right? Jesus, y’all are pathetic.
THEY left THEIR bag on the bus. I don’t know the gender of the person I’m talking about. Yet I am able to convey a single entity person under the pronouns they/them.
Could not agree more! It’s just a cry for attention in an age when attention is the highest goal. Mental construct at best, mental illness at worst
See this is where things get weird in the world of “gender identity.” With a transgender person, usually, the elements of “gender” they are most concerned with are those related to body appearance - which is the main connection-point between gender and sex.
How “femaleness” or “maleness” is “presented” in our society is less behavioral and more about body appearance. And body appearance is about sex and sexual attraction.
For instance, on the behavioral side: No one seriously doubts the “womanhood” of a female in our society who keeps her hair short, wears jeans, has short nails and does physical work. We also don’t doubt her sexual intent: She wants to attract people who are attracted to females.
On the side of body appearance, to continue with our example: It’s when a female tries to minimize the visibility of her breasts, add the appearance of a package to her pants, grow facial hair, it’s with these actions that *she* begins to transition to a *he.* *Her* sexual intent has changed to become *his* sexual intent: He intends to attract people who are attracted to males.
All the more abstract elements of “gender,” like clothing and grooming choices, mannerisms of gesture, intentions with regard to domestic roles, these things are “gender,” in the strictest sense,” but are not “gender-defining.” They are more social mores and custom, and these are made to be broken.
There is no such thing as a non-binary body appearance because there is no such thing as a non-binary biological sex (even intersex people generally look more male or female, and they are a rare physical anomaly). There is no non-binary body appearance, only a confusing one.
So what does it mean to be “non-binary?” We already established it can’t be about body appearance. And as soon as we move away from talking about body appearance, to taking about the more abstract elements of gender, this new gender identity breaks down: *Breaking the abstract rules of gender does not alter gender body appearance.* You still either look like a woman, look like a man, or create confusion. You can’t be something else here, only create confusion.
If a person’s goal is neither to look like a man nor look like a woman, but rather to merely create confusion, that person is not creating a “new gender identity,” they are merely being a child trying to get attention.
Lmao, the upvote to comment ratio is pretty much exactly what I expected from this sub. But I agree. But I’m not going to go around telling people that. I’ll respect people’s pronouns and all that, and tell them that I respect their identity and all that, but inside I’m rolling my eyes the whole time. I honestly think it’s just a phase for most people, and they’ll grow out of it, so I just ignore it and let them do them. Some people may never grow out of it, but like with all NB people I just think they’re desperate to feel different or unique.
what an ignorant statement
Ofc its not its just nonsense for people with low self
I agree with you 100%.
Non binary is an invention of the left
To the NB person who just deleted their comment… I never said that you don’t exist. Just that the concept you mistake for your true identity does not exist in objective reality. Anywhere. Sweet friend, you are more than a concept. You are the universe experiencing itself temporarily in the form of a human. You don’t become free from the boxes society places you in by inventing new boxes to exist in. You fuck the boxes off all together. The consciousness in me sees the consciousness in you. That’s true unity. Namaste, bish.
You do realise that you are employing the exact same tactics that were (and still are to some degree) being used against gay people, right? Here’s another one for you, to quote everyone’s favourite rhetorical genius Ben Shapiro (obv. joking) “Facts don’t care about your feelings”. The science is out, you saying you think that NB people are just this or that does not change anything. Your opinion is not only hurtful but also factually incorrect. As an enby person I’m honestly disgusted, coming out has been hard for me and I at least expected to be understood or accepted in a community like such but what do I encounter? The same bigotry I would expect getting from a 80+ year old christian conservative.
Completely agree, and there is no scientific basis for nb or the million other genders that are supposedly out there. It has never been a thing and never will be. People just want to be noticed and to do that, they have to be “different” to stand out from the crowd. That’s really what it boils down to.
I mean, it doesn’t exist outside the mind in the same way the current gender binary doesn’t exist outside the mind. Nb folks, in my opinion, are suggesting we move beyond the already “made up” idea of concrete black and white genders. Ofc biological sex is a separate issue, I’m not suggesting that’s made up. But our societal ideas of gender absolutely are.
> Ofc biological sex is a separate issue
Then can you explain why do transgenders try to look like the opposite sex?
>Nb folks, in my opinion, are suggesting we move beyond the already “made up” idea of concrete black and white genders.
The only thing their doing is reinforcing gender stereotypes associated with both genders.
It isnt and most "3rd fenders" were describing men who were either homosexual or didn't fit the standart gender roles assigned to men.
How is this downvoted? You're right.
I disagree simply because we should let everyone identify themselves the way they please. What concerns me more is the worrying amount of transphobia and bigotry in these comments. Y’all should touch some grass…
I didn’t ask a question. Also, “no” is not enough reason to hate on people unless you’re five and under.
"hate" y'all are dramatic. You don't know what transphobia really is, you are ignorant.
You're expecting to be downvoted for an extremely popular opinion in this sub?
Non-binary isn't a real thing. Every sane rational human being agrees with that statement.
let these people have their short moment on earth, because the ultimate joke is on them, typically these people make being NB their whole personality, they dont talk about anything ells and they never do anything meaningful, all they do is bitch and give themselves undeserved high fives, but the ultimate joke is when they die they will have nothing to show for their life, they will have made no achievements and will be lost to time, and instead of their tombstones saying here lies such and such they were good because such and such, it will say "here lies such and such and they were (insert a million pronouns)" and thats it, thats their whole tombstone it will not say anything about the life they made because......they never had one.
all these lim lam tim flops pompom zer zims zams need to get a fucking life.
Nah, us straights are pretty cool with gay bros. We don’t like anyone who makes their sexuality their personality.
How is it homophobic to dislike people who base their entire personality off their sexuality?
Trans isn’t a real thing either. Just men/women with hormone and/or mental situations.
I think gender isn’t a real thing let’s start that conversation yeah? ABOLISH GENDER ACCEPT FREEDOM!
The amount of ignorant discourse in this comment section is appalling. I really thought as queer people would we be more accepting towards those who also do not fit the norms of society.
Let’s not forget our struggle and those who fought for our right to be for ourselves today.
If you don’t believe in it make that your own problem but respect others how you’d want to be respected and that includes using the correct pronouns.
So if one doesnt accept a made up concept it is “ ignorant”? I disagree! Just because we are gay doesnt mean we are not intelligent. If one needs attention, great. Just don’t try a d sell it as some sort of universal truth.
What’s made up is the manifestation of cultural origins, mechanisms, and corollaries of gender perception and expression. But I guess we accept those as the universal truth because???
Queer is a slur. Keep it out of your mouth if you're going to call others bigots for stating facts about material reality.
Someone using a term you don’t identify with is offensive? Guess that’s how any non-binary person might feel reading this entire comment section of people calling them delusional and saying they don’t exist. I’m a gay man. I identify with the term Queer. Actually grateful our community is reclaiming it. But I also respect that YOU do not identify with this term and that is perfectly okay.
I can’t believe I had to sort by controversial to find this one sane and rational comment. 🤦♀️
Masculinity and femininity are inherently subjective and made up in the first place. Everything is made up so I don’t give a fuck what someone identifies as, at the end of the day, it’s about being respectful and working to understand each other. Conservatism quite literally gets us nowhere and that mindset is exactly why no one wanted to support gay people, because they don’t understand us. Live and learn. I’m not nb but I have had many friends who are. The only reason it doesn’t make sense to you is because you’ve never tried to understand. Gender is a construct, it’s made up by society, you adhere to the societal expectations of gender and some don’t want to. Just like you don’t want to adhere to societal expectations of sexual orientation.
If you aren’t here to support trans and non-binary people, then don’t consider yourself lgbt. You’re gay or bi or whatever. But we are a community that struggles and fights together and for each other. Trans and non-binary people have fought for our rights and it should be responsibility to help understand them and fight for their place in society too.
Why call other people's feelings bullshit? They do not impact you negatively in the slightest. If they have to work that out let them. Why being so ignorant and dismissve about the internal states of other humans? You can just be kind and nice. There is absolutely nothing to loose. You are not a victim here , you victimize by calling their challenges bs. If you cannot support, just don't bother. It is very easy to not be a problem.
They do effect us greatly! I, a gay man who grew up in the AIDS era,suddenly have less relevance then Caitlyn Jenner? Who grew up a straight white Republican asshole but is suddenly a role model for our community? How does that not impact me?
She is an awful transgender woman. She is not nonbinary nor a role model.
And who says that if one group experiences tolerance that it is taken away from others? You are not less relevant because you grant others to live their life as they please as well.
> She is not nonbinary
How do you know?
Feelings are not a gender. Neither is personality. I say that with respect.
Are you confusing Sex and gender? Because gender is by definition a social category and self Definition. And gender Identity even more refers to a person's internal sense or role. I would say these count as feelings.
So I guess you are mistaken or am I misscomprehending something?
This comment section is depressing. Expected more from my fellow gays.
Sadly there IS a difference between men and women and intersexual... but it's sadly just a biological one.
Lolling at the 5 upvotes and the 150 comments. This should be good.
I mean a lot of NB people end up later coming out as trans.
Just as a lot of bisexual people end up coming out as gay. But being bi isn’t invalid and people are legit bi.
What if NB is to trans as bi is to gay?
Wow guys… I expect more from the fucking GAY COMMUNITY. Why do you guys think it’s okay to invalidate other people and their experiences just because you think it’s a phase or it’s not real? Non-binary people are under the umbrella of transgender because they do not identify with their physical appearance but may not identify with the other binary gender either. Please guys, before you invalidate others, do your research, make friends with people who use they/them pronouns. Become educated before you’re blatantly transphobic.
Spot the teenager. Lol
Does being a teenager make me any less wrong? I have multiple non-binary friends and have dated a few as well. At first I didn’t understand the whole concept but I fucking asked questions and came to understand it.
Bring a teenager doesnt make you *less* wrong, it makes you *utterly* wrong.
At least I can spell check 🤷🏻♂️
>Does being a teenager make me any less wrong?
It makes you significantly more wrong, in fact.
Why would it? I have the experience and can understand the point of view that non-binary people take whereas you seem to be a bigot set in his ways.
I wouldn't call myself a bigot, I just don't humor children. If a teenager wants to "be nonbinary" then whatever, I did all manner of embarassing things at that age. It's the same as screaming "it's not a phase, mom" when really it's just some kid struggling with society's expectations. Oh you don't fit traditional masculinity or femininity? It couldn't possibly be that literally everyone who was ever a teenage felt like that at some point. No, it must be be that you're some magic mid point. It's fine to struggle with your feelings of how you fit into the world, but expecting people to validate those feelings isn't something that is fair to expect. In your own words, can you describe what it is to be nonbinary? What concrete actions come with that? What makes it more real than a teenage girl who is struggling to find herself and latching on to labels to find find group to belong to?
Don’t let the conservative, middle aged, sad gay man ruin your day
Spot the bigot
I swear to god every day I come into this sub thinking you guys couldn’t get any dumber and yet I’m proven wrong every day
Please point out exactly where I’m wrong, thank you.
If it makes the person feel better is it all that bad though
Only when I’m forced to share in their delusion.
And? So what? It no butter off my biscuit either way. And trust me, homophobes aren't going to distinguish between you and them, so why does it matter what people who were never going to accept us think?
My question is if there's a plurathera of genders is there more just the penius and vagina? Or are there genitalia out there I'm not aware of and if there isn't how do you determine that theirs more then 2 genders? It's all very confusing.
I wish labels had less weight and weren’t as necessary as they seem to be. You be you, let me be me, without question, without judgment. Male, masculine, female, feminine, straight, gay, neither, etc., are just words that people today give a lot of weight and sense of identity. In my ideal reality we could just be, period. Be you, whatever that means. Be you, be human and be accepted by default, as long as you bring no harm upon others, there should be no question about you, your identity, your preference. I am all about individuality and self-expression, but I feel like the historic oppression and toxic masculinity and femininity have resulted in a generation obsessed with acceptance, identification combined with hyper sensitivity. I understand where it comes from, I understand the desire, but I also see how unhealthy and debilitating the reliance on identity can be. The pendulum has swung from a time when the average human had limited basic rights and seeming different resulted in being burned in public for the suspicion of dancing with the devil, to a time that you can pretty much do and dress as you want, contribute positively to society or not without repercussion, and be obsessed / hyper-prescriptive about identification labels, with expectations of acceptance. I get the desire to have identity, but feel that the importance of labels can carry a weight that should be unnecessary. My wish is that we reach a place where all can be accepted without question or judgment by identifying as human.
You motherfukers on this subreddit get worse and worse. Like every time I think that you've hit the bottom of the barrel you show us your bigotry and you show us that you have yet to hit the bottom. You don't like transgender people on this subreddit you don't like non-binary people you don't like people of colour. You people are absolute fucking monsters
Reality exists outside our minds. We perceive it, we do not create it. Yes, we can create things that are real and perceive things that are not real, but perception and reality are not the same.
Okay, keep it to yourself next time.
As a gay man I'm honestly embarrassed by the the non-binary extension of the community. I feel I am taken less seriously because of the people who aren't comfortable with their own bodies.
just what i needed, people who are supposed to be there for me once again letting me down.
These are the kinds of crappy takes that you should keep to yourself
LGB is having a tough time. The identity faith was bound to lead to barbarism.
It's no surprise tho, been heralded for decades. Read Philip Reiff.
im very sure it doesnt really affect you as a person nor lgbtq-issues in any relevant form. but for those people, not feeling like we expect men and/or women to be, is important. and it needs very little politeness and compassion to let these people be how they want to be.
"I think that being gay isn't a real thing" jfc.... let people live their lives, this post is a huge step backwards lmao. Truly a sad post, yes let's marginalize and invalidate an already oppressed demographic, that's never led to anything bad
How are non binary people oppressed.
This post is a prime example
People saying negative things on the internet is actually oppression. This explains a lot about people under 25.
An internet post???
oppression is when people are mean to me
You're wrong, and this is bigotry
This is absolutely unacceptable, how the hell are you being upvoted? Transphobia is not acceptable. You should be deeply ashamed of yourself, and quite frankly the fact that you haven't been banned for this post makes me question if this subreddit is even worth being a part of.
Lol this is pretty tame for this subreddit. It sounds like you wouldn't like it here just a heads up.
Well I've been here a while and this is the first time I've seen blatant hate speech be one of the hot posts. I've messaged the mods and will be leaving if they don't promptly take care of this.
If you think this is hate speech I urge you to unsubscribe. You definitely won't like it here. The mods won't remove anything either. The sidebar pretty explicitly spells that out. So fair warning.
You don't know what transphobia really is about, you are ignorant.
Absolutely incorrect. Trying to invalidate a shit ton of trans identities is 100% transphobia.
NB people have nothing to do with trans people. Take a nap.
You're so close to an actual point. You're right, non-binary doesn't exist anywhere beyond one's mind. Get this: neither does male or female! Gender is a human concept and nbism is no different.
Also, male and female definitely exists beyond one’s own mind. Have you heard of genitalia? Chromosomes?
gender is a social construct based on a generalization and correlation of traits and behaviors with genitalia
You don’t become free from the boxes society places you in by inventing new boxes to exist in. You fuck the boxes off all together.
Does your sexuality exist outside your mind
Yes, sexual arousal is measurable.
I mean, absolutely. Lol. I’m gay because I fuck other men. That’s a thing that happens in reality.
NB similarly do their nb things in absolute reality.