T O P

If people can't afford home ownership & they can't afford the rising cost of rent then where are they supposed to go ?

If people can't afford home ownership & they can't afford the rising cost of rent then where are they supposed to go ?

justanotherreddituse

* Live in a den or living room where you have 3 people in a 1 bedroom + 1 den. * Your parents. * Rooming houses though they are declining in number. * A van parked somewhere. * Shelters. * A tent in Moss Park, Trinity Bellwoods, etc. This is why I believe housing is the largest problem in Canada and needs to be fixed.


KishTO

Agree 100%. In the next election, I will vote for whatever government has the political will to actually do something about it. I admittedly was once a Trudeau fangirl, but that person is clearly not him.


Excessumamy

I think this requires politicians to have experienced living in one of these situations, which I don't think many have :P Though someone please prove me wrong \^\^


KvotheG

A lot of these MPs, particularly the downtown ones, live in luxurious condos in their ridings. This includes NDP MPs, who you would think they would fight for something like this. But, a politician stops caring once they make 6 figures and getting that sweet pension.


justanotherreddituse

Jack Layton lived in a co-op and was a fan of those. That's a very viable alternative for middle to middle high income people where the government doesn't end up owning it (unlike TCHC) or a private entity owns it.


ebolainajar

Co-ops are actually extremely expensive upfront because the big banks won't give you a mortgage. The only way is to go through a credit union and even then you have to have half upfront or something crazy.


lemonylol

Housing wasn't even a major concern of most Canadians in the last election. Most parties didn't even have a policy for it. The unfortunate truth is that at the moment, the majority of Canadians are homeowners, and therefore got theirs. Nobody will care about the others that don't because our democracy is flawed and our country is desperately pretending like the boomer Canadian dream is sustainable for everyone.


PisseArtiste

They'll have to care eventually - someday they will need to sell those homes, and eventually there won't be much of a market.


kongdk9

Trudeau had policy. Let in alot more ppl, including educated ones, ones with money (point system) that will buy property in the shorter term. Even the poorer ones scrimp and save and move up eventually. Someone like me bought an investment property shortly after he came into office. The gains from that one property more then wiped out the mortgage on my primary property. I'm a small time player. Imagine the real rich? Inflate current assets to pay off fixed (lower) debt from the past. I also have several other properties with 50% ownership which I'll be taking advantage of (buyout, etc). Basically, policies = asset inflation.


allyfiorido

They're expected to either move out of the city, move back in with their parents, put a unreasonable percentage of their income towards housing or live in sub-standard housing with an insulting amount of roommates. None of these options are sustainable in the long run.


lemonylol

Yep, moved back into my parents' with my wife and son a couple of months ago. My wife and I both have stable careers well above minimum wage. And everyday I just browse home and rental listings and watch as they pass what was considered high in Toronto 5 years ago...up in Sudbury...


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peachycreaam

The thing is, where do you even go (out of the city)? Even 2-3 hours outside of the GTA is expensive as Toronto to buy and not too many rental properties. My mom works with someone in Nova Scotia and they said average houses are going for 800k in their cities now. The best thing to do is leave the country IMO.


bestjedi22

Idk man and it’s frustrating beyond belief. I am a transplant from another province and I love Toronto but rent and the cost of living is way too expensive here and as a result I’m not sure if I can stay. It’s ridiculous to see that rent is just as expensive in downtown Toronto, Markham and Mississauga. I don’t want to live in some suburban hellscape that is far away with poor transit. It’s unfortunate but I am considering pulling the plug because it is just too much.


lemonylol

I don't even want to live in the city, I *want* to live out in the suburbs, and it's still so fucking expensive.


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AdviceOrBust88

Unfortunately, they don't expect you to live on that wage.


Babyboy1314

I think many people LOVE the lifestyle Toronto provides hence the high cost of rent


ryanstartedtheflame

Yeah. We need more bigger cities similar to US


lemonylol

What you mean our cities that are just two main roads meeting at a smart centre aren't good enough?


ryanstartedtheflame

Hahaha. Never have I been offended by something I 100% agree with


thestoplereffect

The high cost of rent is from an artificial supply shortage, not from the lifestyle.


holysufferindyin

What exactly makes the shortage artificial?


usuallygone

Lots of areas zoned for R1 single family homes, huge suburban lots, etc. They restrict supply. The only development that happens is enormous condo buildings that can overcome the zoning pushback against building more housing. Sometimes called the yellow belt https://www.thestar.com/business/real_estate/2019/03/16/why-its-so-hard-to-get-housing-into-torontos-yellowbelt-neighbourhoods-and-how-experts-say-it-can-be-done.html


Babyboy1314

its also from insane demand because people love the lifestyle and want to live in Toronto


Last_Establishment99

Sure, you have great restaurants and opportunities for tons of different activities and loads of different and often very oblique interest groups and so forth but beyond that... ? I guess all of that is pretty good, actually (if you can afford it of course). I lived in Fredericton for a couple of years. It was super cheap, but meeting people with whom I had anything in common outside of work was virtually impossible. Toronto is the anti-Fredericton for better or worse.


Gracilis67

This is scaring me. I want to move to Toronto but not for owning a property. I don’t mind living with housemates. I’ve also seen 1-bedroom apartments that have gone cheap for $1500 and while I *could* afford the price, it won’t leave me any room to save for a potential down payment later in my life. At the same time I don’t want to stay with my parents any longer. I just want to move on with my life. I’m single so I don’t have a partner to live with.


nervousTO

Korea has a term for just saying fuck it to the future and living in the present in terms of spending money on things. While this is more geared to Ubers, I treat it the same way. Sibal Biyong. You only get one life. I had more luck and happiness dating once I left my parents'. If you don't like it, you can always go back.


victorianmood

Me rn. Moving out cause I mentally can’t take it anymore


millerjuana

Rent is easier to control than housing prices it seems. Maybe with some proper rent control then there will be a good amount of affordable units. Renting all your life doesn't sound fun, but I guess that's the way things are going now :/ I plan to rent in the city but buy some rural property in central to northern Ontario. I've fully accepted that I won't be able to afford anything once I start making good money, if I ever do.


syncpulse

It's worse than you think. My wife helps people find rentals and she's saying that many landlords won't even consider someone who has lass than a 700 credit score right now.


victorianmood

Depends. Mine is 646 and I got accepted by my landlord despite them turning down 7 people before us. They liked our story and gave it to us.


KvotheG

Some of my friends have already moved out of Toronto, such as Hamilton, Pickering, Windsor, etc. These areas are also getting more expensive as more people from Toronto move there. A better question would be: who the hell is moving INTO Toronto? Some people will argue that it’s rich foreigners, but that was debunked by multiple banks that show that only accounts for less than 10% of the housing problem. A more realistic reason is that it’s basically younger couples buying property in Toronto and the GTA with significant help from their family. They’re all generally well-off (you have to be) making at least over 6 figures in order to even qualify for a mortgage in TO. And in some cases, even that isn’t enough. A lot of it is really house flippers buying multiple properties just to sell them when the value goes up, and this sucks because as long as people are buying, then the developers have no reason to lower their prices. It sucks that people who actually grew up in Toronto are being priced-out of their own city. Toronto actually used to be mixed-income in many places downtown, and I’m fortunate to have grown up in this city. But I’m scared to be priced-out of my own home with the direction that everything is going. Would I leave Toronto if it meant cheaper housing and more money for the cost of living? I don’t have to right now, but I guess when I’m ready to start a family, something like that will really matter and make me reconsider. Tbh, I’m hoping for a housing crash. Yes, the economy will suffer in the short term, but we will recover. Let’s be honest, real estate in Toronto is severely overvalued and is due for a price correction. But no federal government has the balls to deal with the consequences of forcing a price correction in housing. I know some people will be mad about this opinion, but Toronto real estate cannot keep increasing in value as long as salaries are stagnant, and Lord knows those aren’t going up.


sodium_intake

You’re correct. Toronto has artificially high prices. Factor that with the double land transfer tax … it’s hard to buy in Toronto. The amount of (non mortgage) money you need to buy is insane.


toomiiikahh

You are still coming out ahead compared to the east end where property taxes are WAY more than Toronto...


uoftsuxalot

How much do you think young couples are making, or an even better question, how many young couples do you think there are ??? The median household income is 80k in Toronto. You can appear “not foreign” on paper very easily. There are ways for rich people to get citizenship/PR immediately (look into investor programs). You can also buy/create a shell corporation and avoid your “foreign” status. Also 10% isn’t a small amount, that needs to be closer to 0%.


asscoat

Immediately is a bit of an exaggeration. In Ontario, there was [1 applicant](https://www.ontario.ca/page/2021-ontario-immigrant-nominee-program-updates#section-3) nominated for the entrepreneur stream in all of 2020, applicants (or the applicant) would then need to apply at the federal level and have their application processed which would take an additional 15-21 months. Directly at the federal level, the "start-up visa" takes 12-16 months to process. Simply put, Toronto real estate has been undervalued for a very long time - sure there are foreign investors who are buying up condos and houses but as you say these are the minority.


uoftsuxalot

Look into Quebec’s program. Also look into snow washing. It’s not the average Canadian buying these homes, it’s someone much richer.


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BrockH82

Yup, that new fund looking to buy 1B in rental housing in Canada? They’ll just double (hyperbole disclaimer) their purchasing power with a crash. For reference: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-condo-developer-to-buy-1-billion-worth-of-single-family-houses-in/


Andrenachrome

It wasn't debunked. What was found was 10% of foreign ownership was found. That doesn't include where ownership is obscured by being incorporates. You are also missing the vast amount of money laundering occuring. https://globalnews.ca/news/6608644/canadian-real-estate-abysmal-anti-money-laundering-grades/


eskimoafrican

Yeah I think that the foreign ownership is vastly underreported. Money laundering is easier than ever with crypto. Canada is known to be a ML swamp.


lemonylol

I can imagine that coming into account but I heavily doubt it's underreported more than a couple points. Blaming foreign buyers is just an easy scapegoat, when in reality it's a number of factors in combination. Like you can ban all foreign home ownership tomorrow, and local speculators, flippers, investors, and retirees trying to play casual landlord, will just eat up their share immediately.


reversethrust

I know a bank manager that has 4 investment properties, in addition to her home. She’s underwater by $1600/mo from her rent. I can’t imagine an increase in rates going well for people in her position.


I_Ron_Butterfly

A potential scenario is rates rise so fewer people can afford to buy and are forced to rent, driving rents higher. Rarely do these aspects exist in a vacuum.


magicbook

It doesn't have to end well. They can always sell. There is no guaranteed profit.


datspookyghost

What are your thoughts on why the market didn't crash when covid happened? If it were to crash, wouldn't that have been the time?


responsiblenatures

The people who owned and could afford homes were probably the least affected by the pandemic financially. Every landlord I've had owned over 5 properties. For them, it was worth it to hold on to the property and forgo renting at a lower rate on the off chance someone tried to take advantage of the no-eviction rules (or at least, a lengthier process for eviction). The homes that were for sale probably got purchased by people or companies looking to expand investments. My thoughts, anyway.


AlmostNothing2203

The market didn't crash because most people that can afford a house didn't lose their jobs. They started spending much less and saving more. And because people suddenly started to value space over location for housing. And the historical low interest rate for home ownership....


ThaDude8

Trudeau said it straight out last March ‘No Canadian will lose their home over this pandemic’ (I’m paraphrasing). To that end, they dropped interest rates (again), and those that owned and planned on staying put renegotiated mortgages, those that were ready to move out of the city for more space could now afford to create bidding wars in the smaller markets and bring Toronto prices (bankrolled by astronomical selling prices) to those smaller communities. I’ve been saying what the OP stated since about 2015, they need to raise interest rates and let the market crash if that’s what’s going to happen. Mommy and Daddy taking out new mortgages to pay for their kids down payments needs to stop! This has gotten completely out of hand and someone needs to grow a pair and fix this situation!


datspookyghost

Which is why I'm inclined to think this shit ain't crashing lol if the shit we've been through didn't cause one, what will?


ThaDude8

No doubt, this is a huge boon for those people that have access to millions of dollars, for realtors, real estate investors, lawyers. This is exactly what they love to see! Also, doesn’t exactly take a crystal ball to know in 2019 that if there was a potential crash that the BoC was going to lower interest and flood the market with capital, this has been going on since the 2008 financial crash when interest rates were first lowered dramatically. Those with access to capital and steady work were able to access MUCH more mortgage money from the banks, and drove up prices in Toronto. When they lowered interest rates again with the start of the pandemic the exact same thing happened, those who were already financially stable/ well off, were able to access more capital and save or take out big mortgages again. Canadians have been fed a lie that housing prices should NEVER go down, and those that make the rules (politicians) predominantly own at LEAST one property, so they are not the least bit motivated to do anything that could drop those values. Thus we see a situation where the populace knows this doesn’t make sense, but the minority are completely being left behind. So to answer the OPs question as to what happens when you can’t afford to buy, and rents are raised to the point you can’t afford to rent… first you live in your car, then you take to the streets. Or you move back in with parents, have roommates for the rest of your life, there are options, but they aren’t very appealing…. I would argue that Canada may be losing its middle class faster than anyone cares to admit.


eskimoafrican

Haha they won't. Too much money involved. Not that I disagree with you but they won't.


youngtsen

Strangely, I talked with one of my alumni in Oct 2019, about the real estate status in Toronto. He has a career in real estate investment, and shared the view that Toronto RE market is the best he had ever seen. Basically, people around the world and around the country coming to Toronto for work. This is strong demand. Building new homes just taking too much time and can never meet the ends, at least for 10 years. I asked, what will happen if there is a crisis? He said, bank of Canada will act ASAP to put money into the market, which inevitably ends with higher housing price. So, every thing happened like he expected.


CDNChaoZ

It did "crash". Rents are down like 25% in some places. But no, if a global pandemic doesn't budge prices, there's very little chance real estate will crash in this country in the near future.


berniegfn60

Bullshit. Rents are sky high country wide now. No one is falling for the raise 80% and reduce 25% scam anymore.


datspookyghost

I was referring to prices of property, as opposed to rent.


eskimoafrican

Mostly because interest rates were kept low. They are actually making lending stricter by increasing the stress test from 4.79% to 5.25%. I also wonder if Lumber prices had anything to do with it, whether projects were so delayed/expensive that it was driving buying of properties? The people most affected were service industry employees, the regular 9-5PM employee shifted from office to home. Nothing will be done to fix it from the government side. I recently bought a condo (my first purchase) and my lawyer told me that the government was definitely not going to pause home sales due to COVID. Everything else can be shut down, but that. Think about the amount of money they make on land transfer tax. They want prices to go up and they want more sales.


BDR2017

Hol'up! You can OWN property, as opposed to rent?!


4_spotted_zebras

Property prices didn’t drop because the Federal government gave banks money to allow [mortgages to be deferred](https://www.canada.ca/en/financial-consumer-agency/services/mortgages/mortgage-deferrals.html). No one screamed hOw WiLl We PaY fOr iT or any similar relief for renters though.


CDNChaoZ

Agreed. But just goes to show that Covid-19 DID have an impact on real estate: it drove rental prices down and detached prices up in GTA suburbs.


eskimoafrican

Yes because who are the renters? People moved out of the city to family etc... Rent vs Own are vastly different.


berniegfn60

What planet you talking about? Because rents did not go down here on planet Earth.


lemonylol

Isn't a lot of home purchasing just paperwork and meeting people one on one? And now when you have a ton of people who have the means, wanting to get a bigger place to WFH, it'll just make up for any losses caused by COVID anyway.


Raccoolz

If real estate crashes, it takes the economy down with it, that means layoffs and lower wages. So even though house prices might drop, affordability won’t improve for the average person. Then as the economy starts to recover, jobs come back, higher wages come back, house prices go up again, and the cycle continues. There is a key change that happen to Toronto that can’t be reversed. In the past 25 years, it’s shifted from a cheap sleepy industrial city to a top tier magnet city. Combined with the commodification of housing and you have our current situation, there isn’t likely a way out.


eskimoafrican

Nailed it. Let's not also forget that international students are a $25bn industry in Canada. We are increasing numbers yearly. Where are we going to put all these students when they start working? There is a huge supply issue. There will be no correction. Even if interest rates drop and there is a correction. Some people are sitting and waiting for that and will just buy up.


peppa_pig6969

> There will be no correction. Even if interest rates drop and there is a correction. "I take full responsibility. It's not my fault that it happened!"


eskimoafrican

Haha busy day. What I mean to say it would be a short correction. Not longstanding.


gordee78

Exactly this. I know there is much consternation on reddit because of home ownership -- it IS tough. I know it isn't easy. But the point is that Toronto is transitioning from a mid-tier city with mix of industrial / mfg to a top tier city in North America that is primarily knowledge and services based. SO yes many people are finding themselves displaced if they cannot re-tool for software, tech, medical, financial careers. Those salaries are VERY high and there is real wage inflation here (especially last few years) where restricted stock compensation has been significant.


toomiiikahh

>I’m hoping for a housing crash So are the investors. There are billions of dollars ready that are made from the ridiculous stock market just to swoop in when people can't afford it anymore and they will.


paksman

Much of Reddit cannot take the bitter truth that its much of a supply issue rather than anything else posted here. They wanted to fantasize a scenario where a mythical housing bubble is ripe to burst... At best it's only gonna cool down or fizzle.


Freddydaddy

>Some people will argue that it’s rich foreigners, but that was debunked by multiple banks that show that only accounts for less than 30% of the housing problem. I'd say 30% (yes, I know the quote is "less than") is a massive number of foreigners fucking with the Canadian housing market.


BEWARETHEAVERAGEMAN

The government provides stuff like schools, hospitals, public transportation, and infrastructure, which makes value go up. If foreigners are investing their money in real estate, it is only because real estate is a good investment, so you can bet non-foreigners would be interested in buying too. The solution is a land-value tax on the unimproved value of the land. Foreign investment is a symptom of the nearly riskless profit due to government expenditure being absorbed by landowners. It is a regressive system where rich landowners have their taxes returned to them through increased land value. /r/georgism


fluffymuha

I agree, I don't see how this is suddenly "debunked". 30% is literally a **third** of the market. Fucked up by international buyers.


zakalewes

It's not anywhere near 30%. In Vancouver during its hayday they could only account for about 10%, and most of that was from the US. Foreign ownership is a bogeyman to a domestic issue.


kremaili

It doesn't take a high percentage of sales to set new price floors in a housing market. Just one or two sales at a higher level will push the whole neighbourhood to match that level. It's hard to gauge how big of a problem it is, but realistically it's a problem we shouldn't have to deal with. edit: quote wrong post


zakalewes

I think you replied to the wrong person, but I agree. RE pricing is really sticky. Easy to go up, hard to down, unlike other more liquid markets.


kkfl

While I don't disagree that a third of the market having massively deep pockets would have a disproportionate effect on housing prices, we don't need to speculate on an unknown problem when it's blatantly obvious that record-low interest rates and record-low demand are driving price increases. Those two factors are certainly more impactful than foreign buyers. As a millennial, I know more people (including myself) participating in the market this past year than all previous five years combined. The FOMO is 100% real.


affectionate

> They’re all generally well-off (you have to be) making at least over 6 figures in order to even qualify for a mortgage in TO. you don't have to be making 6 figures to qualify for a mortgage, but in that case, you have to have a big downpayment i put down about half of what i offered as downpayment and am paying about the same amount in mortgage + maint. fees as i did at my former place, where i paid rent.


baystreetsx

Lol hoping for a housing crash. Keep dreaming buddy


gordee78

I'll say it again for all the GenZ's here .... hope isn't a plan.


berniegfn60

Ya? You don't think it can happen? You the Dreamer Sparky.


baystreetsx

I guess you’re right. how much of a correction is reasonable in your opinion? 10, 20, 30, 40%? Also what contributing factors do you see in play.. do you expect it to crash like the San Fran market?


gordee78

One has to realize that this is demand driven. I know Reddit is filled with many younger individuals who are still developing their career so it is hard to hear. But yes many of my friends who are marketing execs, software developers, engineers, doctors, lawyers, dentists -- yes they are all buying homes and having kids etc. There is definitely demand. Everyone is envisioning some economy where just investors own properties in the city -- and that really can't be farther from the truth. I'm in mid-town and we are all homeowners ... all with kids and daycare costs, car lease payments etc etc. I don't think salaries are stagnant at all. I Know many people in tech in toronto and these kids are making 80k, 115k, 135k with stock etc. And they continue to jump from company to company every several years for more $$$. So salary inflation is a thing. Same for those in banking and finance. Toronto was just named finance capital (next to New York of course). Netflix just announced Toronto HQ. Of course we are a medical HUB of Canada. People are "hoping" for a crash. I'll just say hope isn't a plan....


dsizzle2-0

This is correct. The majority of people don't realize that Toronto is the tech hub of Canada now. Everyone I know who is working as a designer, developer, product manager etc are all making above 100k. Factor in that remote work is now popular and you have people working for remote companies making even more (200k+). Keep in mind that many of these people are even in their early 20's. With that being said, it still costs a lot for a downpayment and to just qualify for a mortgage with some house prices. It's tough but people are still doing it and I don't see that changing considering some bigger tech giants are moving in which will raise salaries and demand within tech.


dark_forest1

You don’t need to make a shit load of money or have rich parents to buy - you just need to be disciplined, save and do your research . I just bought a house downtown and neither my wife nor I make six figures - nor do we accept money from parents. It took a lot of self-control and careful saving over the course of a few years. Realizing that Toronto didn’t owe me a house was an important first step to becoming a home owner. I was literally working at Starbucks when I first came to the city 10 years ago.


Ghostyle

While I applaud your situation and I don't know the fill details there are so many factors at play. People having to support parents, student loans, working in fields that are meaningful to them but not high earning (eg wr can't all be business or STEM).


dark_forest1

We’re on the same page here. I just don’t like people labeling me a trust fund kid or multi-millionaire because I managed to make it work. As you put it - it’s not that simple. Saying you need rich parents to buy is the same as saying needing to support parents is the reason you can’t buy IMO. It’s like saying crushing student debt is keeping you back - would you be better off without student debt (and your degree)? Maybe? I dunno. My point is that home ownership is absolutely possible if you make it a priority.


Ghostyle

I agree. I think there is a growing cohort of people that will not be able to buy without parents support which is sad. Personally, my partner and I purchased a 1 bedroom condo in 2019 without parents support so I do agree it's possible. I'm surprised you were able to get a house though.


lost_man_wants_soda

I moved into Toronto I like it


Raccoolz

Roommates. This is the way it’s always been in Toronto, especially downtown. Then in your 30s, most people get partnered up and now have dual incomes and can afford something.


coyote_123

It's always been that way for people in their 20s almost everywhere, not just Toronto.


Orchid-Analyst-550

I went from living with roommates in my 20s to living with a partner in my 30s. Pretty much all my friends did the same.


Afraid_Sprinkles123

yeah, any big city really.


attainwealthswiftly

I believe in other countries you can’t buy property unless you are a citizen. Why can’t Canada implement this?


eskimoafrican

>I believe in other countries you can’t buy property unless you are a citizen. Why can’t Canada implement this? $$$$$$$


berniegfn60

Because greedy fuck scumbags control the country.


imapersonaswell

A more communal living situation? (that means roommates)


I_MELT_STEEL_BEAMS

Not everyone here is a 20-something.


NewYogurtCity

There's nothing wrong with not being in your twenties anymore and living with roommates. Especially in a city as expensive as Toronto.


I_MELT_STEEL_BEAMS

Good luck being a single parent in Toronto then.


NewYogurtCity

So, living with roommates = stuck being a single parent? If you have an SO then you can obviously just split the costs with them as you would do with a roommate. Depends on your circumstances, but you will have to split the costs with someone to live in the city either way if you're middle-class.


I_MELT_STEEL_BEAMS

You can't really live with roommates AND have your children around either. If you're a single parent in TO, you're fucked.


typingfrombed

In NYC people have roommates well into their 30s just as an example. Toronto is not there yet—not by a long shot. But it’s not an impossibility.


maxver

I know people in Toronto 35+ that live with roommates (they don't even like) and they do it because of much lower rental costs $500-800 for a room. One of them even earns 90k/year.


Sector_Corrupt

Yeah honestly this idea that you must live alone after a certain age is weird. I don't think I've ever lived alone, I went directly from roommates to living with my wife.


I_Ron_Butterfly

Living alone is a huge luxury. I’m general against the “entitled” tag because things are really tough right now, but the expectation of having a whole home to yourself at a cheap rental rate is an exception.


peppa_pig6969

>Living alone is a huge luxury No it's not. I mean, it currently is, but I don't get why the idea that it's cool and we should just lower our collective expectations is being pushed. How is it a luxury to have your own living space? And aside from like San Francisco what other city has gainfully employed people living in rooming houses long term? >a whole home to yourself You mean my 500 sqft apartment? Yeah just basking in luxury over here guys. The opulence is just too much. You realize that like..30-50 years ago people with no education walked in and got a job that allowed them to buy a house, cars, support a whole ass family right?


typingfrombed

Oh yeah totally. I’m not suggesting that torontonians don’t live with roomies in their 30s. Just more that in NYC a luxury 1bd condo costs $3.5-5k a month in a prime location. In Toronto it’s still possible to find luxury 1bds in core for under $2k. So it’s more achievable to live alone in Toronto for the time being anyway.


jaimonee

Yeah my buddy moved to San Fran to work for a big tech company, sold his downtown Condo in Toronto and moved into a house with 5 other dudes there. They all make good money but can't afford to go out for a beer.


ath1337ic

Um, anywhere else with a lower cost of living, or higher wages relative to COL, better entrepreneurial opportunities? Given Toronto is one of the most expensive cities in the country I'd say pretty much anywhere in the world would be an option.


TroLLageK

Easier said than done my dude.


ath1337ic

The question didn't include a threshold for 'easiness'. If you're unwilling to consider other options beyond living in one city forever you'll just have to roll with the punches and deal with whatever happens in that city, like it or not.


peppa_pig6969

I don't like punches :(


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Goolajones

It is an ignorant way to think about things for sure. To suggest that people must just find an brand new environment, leaving their friends, jobs, connections, memories, sense of community, their doctor, their dentist, the places they have always known, and just go someplace else so the city can increasingly become a playground for the worlds elite to play real estate investment game’s is short sighted. It’s arrogant, it lacks empathy, it is void of humanity and shows how clueless you are to that proven fact that socio-economic diversity is essential to urban vibrancy. When the poor leave, businesses close and it’s a tragic cycle to the bottom. Who do you think will make people’s coffee, cash them out at the grocery store, drive their taxi, stock the shelves at the hardware store, cut their hair, or clean the spaces those wealthiest enough to remain here enjoy frequenting. Everyone relies on the work minimum wage workers do and we can’t expect them to commute from Windsor. Seriously, think about how stupid that idea is purely from an economic standpoint, since it’s clear you have much more concern for money than people. I also want to add that for a certain part of the population, it just isn’t feasible to move to a currently affordable suburb or small town. If someone can’t drive, either for legal, physical, or mental issues that prohibit it, or just have no ability, or interest in driving a car need to live around high density public transit. Some people rely on specialist or assistance for certain aspects of the live that are only available in the city. Minorities, either ethnic, gender, sexuality, religious etc can develop isolation based mental health problems when they have no one they can relate to or identify with within their community or may even face harassment and threats if they continue to live as the only minority. The city tends to allow for minorities to find their community, this can be really important if a person is going to thrive and maintain mental health. Students are also struggling to survive in this city, however this is where school exists. For many specialized programs this is the one and only option in the country for their field of study. Surely we can’t just stop allowing students to attend school because they can’t afford to live in the city it’s located in. They are trying to invest in themselves and their financial future. Some of the cities poorest couldn’t event leave the city if they wanted to. They’re socially isolated here and would not even have a way to physically move their belongings or their own body to another town. Without a car, friends/family with vehicle access, enough money to even rent a truck, the physical ability to lift boxes, no internet to look for a new place, etc. There are people who can’t leave because they take care of someone else who would have no one else if that person left for a new currently affordable city. Custody of children by divorced parents could force someone to remain living in the city. With the kids court mandated to go back and forth between parents every second week, one parent leaving the city may mean they forfeit the majority of the custody for the sake of keeping the kids in their school, or not having the ability to drive the distance weekly. So many reasons why the entire concept of moving is just not feasible for some people, so many reasons why it’s really dumb to just tell people if they can’t afford to live someplace, they need to just move.


shortforaddie

Very well said thank you! Reminds me of when I was a child I used to see things about areas where there was war or extreme poverty and I'd think "why don't they just move". Point being it's a very child like way to think. We should be trying to fix the problem so people can stay. I'm one of the ones being forced out and I'm furious. I love Toronto. I have a vibrant life here with friends and activities. But we can't afford to stay and therefore we're out at the end of the month and I'm heart broken. It's a very cold response to just tell people too bad Toronto is too expensive just move. Also we're being villanized by the people in the small towns for coming in and buying up their property that they feel entitled to. It's such a lose lose situation.


milkradio

Thank you for taking the time to say all this because I fucking hate when people say “just move” as if it’s really that simple and then I get too incensed to thoughtfully reply.


toqs347

Really well said. I think the advice to move should be directed to highly mobile professionals with in-demand skills who move here and are shocked at the raw deal they are getting - high real estate and other expenses, low salaries, generally unfriendly and sad population scared of their own shadows etc. Folks, you did not do your research well - if you don't like it, get out. People with long time roots in the city, people who can't move without significant impact on their wellbeing should get to stay and shouldn't be asked to move.


ForeverYonge

Good rant. Somehow San Francisco is still standing, coffee is still sold, etc. People commute literal hours to get to work. The apocalypse won’t happen. It will get worse here, at least in the short term. No quick fixes. Long-term, only massive rezoning of huge swaths of the city to low rise multi-residential and at-right construction, together with more public options, will fix the supply side.


bkwrm1755

An hour or two away isn't much cheaper, plus you need a car. In a lot of cases it ends up being more expensive.


pblack177

COL is getting just as expensive anywhere else. Home ownership 1-2 hours away from Toronto can easily be just as hard as in Toronto. People don't want to be uprooted from their lives and forced to move out of the city they've always lived in? How dare they not just suck it up and move 2 hours away from everything they know, their friends, families, lives, etc.


apoliticalapocalypse

Wait till this guy finds out that some people move all the way across the entire world for better opportunities.


pblack177

I understand that people do. Do I think people should have to move out of their cities because investors buy up all the available properties and artificially inflate prices? No, I don’t think they should


justanotherreddituse

It's not so easy to immigrate to other countries unless you have very in demand skills or lots of money. Those that do have in demand skills have been moving and it's contributing to our brain drain.


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pblack177

That’s a great personal story but what’s good for you may not be good for the hundreds of thousands of others who are priced out of the city they call home due to circumstances beyond their control


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pblack177

What happens when it’s too expensive to live anywhere in Canada because of foreign buyers and private investors? Are we not “entitled” to live in the country we are born into? Why? And if so? Why doesn’t that apply to our cities or provinces?


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pblack177

My point is you say we are not “entitled” to live in Toronto just because we grew up here, spent our entire lives here, have all of our friends and family and connections here. So really, what’s the difference? What makes us entitled to live anywhere? And btw I’m lucky enough to be a condo owner in Toronto (bought with a partner, we make just over 100K combined income and had a lot of savings, no family help, but we both saved for years and years and lived frugally) my concern is for others in this city


ath1337ic

I'm not sure what peoples expectations could be if they're only willing to expand a couple of hours beyond one specific city. When you voluntarily subject yourself to a captive audience situation you're probably not going to have a great time.


Fanboysblow

Revolt


berniegfn60

That is coming.


MerseySideAlt9

Leave toronto. Period.


Ray_alali

Become homeless, thanks to our amazing government. Aside from housing, that’s already too damn expensive, I already know I’ll probably end up in the next few years because: you have groceries, gas that sits at 1.33 in the city atm, you have insurance that’s sky high, debt that needs to be paid off. Enough or should I keep going?


shortforaddie

I think one of the solutions should be extreme tax on multiple homes. Once you're in the market you can keep buying and buying with the equity. Homes are now just for investment, not to live anymore. Why does someone need 4 or 5 homes? Any house you want to buy after your second should have extreme restrictions. I haven't actually done any research on this and have no idea if it's feasible, it just seems to me part of the problem is everyone is trying to get in and make money so the people who just want a home to live in that's their own are screwed. But I talked to Adam Vaughan and I'll tell you their sympathies are not with first time home buyers. They won't do anything to negatively impact housing prices for those that already own.


danp444

the solution is less government regulation on Canadians and more towards foreign investors. foreign investors come to Canada and buy as many houses as they can and sometimes don't pay tax on the houses they purchase because they don't live in Canada. we also need to loosen zoning laws for residential housing so were can build more houses if we do this, even Canadians that buy a house to flip for a profit won't be that of an impact on the housing prices.


lemonylol

What statistics are you looking at to come to this conclusion?


Canada_girl

The 'easy internet points by scapegoating sccaaarry foreigners' book


gentlewarriormonk

Flipping houses for profit in this market is seriously unethical and needs to be made illegal.


NoviLii

Also really disruptive for other residents, the constant noise and mess of renovations. There’s constant noise of home reno’s in my neighborhood, one house is excavating their basement right now and there’s mud all over the street and in front of their place. They don’t care though, cause they’ll fix it up and be gone in a year.


blastfamy

I think your problem may be with capitalism, not home flipping?


berniegfn60

You should have a look at your problems.


Ive_got_work_to_do

*this guy is a commie*


landingpagedudes

The issue is there is no protection or framework to prevent unaffordable housing. We need to look towards Berlin and Singapore as models and stop letting our politicians mingle with lobbyists.


UJL123

Move to somewhere where the cost of living is lower and the wage is equivalent. For example if you are a manager of a mcdolands downtown and renting in dt toronto. You could just as easily rent in a different town/city like Niagara falls doing the same job with rent and other cost of living being much lower. ​ If you work in Toronto, you don't really have to live in Toronto. That was one of the biggest lessons I've learned and it saved me a lot of money in the long run. As long as ( monthly rent in a different city) < (monthly rent in toronto + Monthly go train cost) then you'll come out ahead. In general other cost of living like groceries are cheaper when you move away from Toronto.


aards

I’m curious though because housing costs in niagara are soaring and have been for years. Even hamilton is right on par with rental prices as they are here in the city. When does it stop if people continue to move out to more affordable areas, which increases demand in those towns and the cycle repeats This isn’t necessarily to you. Just thoughts


justanotherreddituse

I too have taken the GO train to commute. Other areas are hardly cheap and life really, really sucks when you're spending 2 hours each way getting to and from work.


UJL123

Although rent is not the only cost of living expense, it's probably one of the biggest one. If you take into account other cost of living expenses like food, entertainment, childcare etc it usually ends up lower as well. ​ The important thing to remember is to look at cost of living as a whole, not just the rent.


T98i

Isn't that essentially a 33% paycut also? Like let's say you're being paid $1,000 for 8 hours of work (for math reasons). That's $125/hour. Now you're only being paid $1,000 for 12 hours of work. That's $83/hour. Now you're earning only 83/125 = 66% of your income if only you lived closer. That's a 33% paycut. That's huge.


justanotherreddituse

Kind of. You can read or shitpost on reddit, etc when you're on a train, if you get a seat so it's not entirely a lost cause. Between walking from the GO station to work and home, and possibly taking other transit your time you can do that may be quite limited. You can't take care of kids, cook, do chores, etc which are all necessary or have a social life.


IvoryHKStud

But then you'll have to spent 1-2 hours a day commuting (assuming remote working is not possible)... At the end of the day, it is a trade off exercise, and people just have to find the right balance that fits them. It might not be ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world where everything works perfectly.


I_MELT_STEEL_BEAMS

If you live in Niagara and work in Toronto, your daily commute is a lot more than 2 hours even on a good day.


Xoron101

>monthly rent in toronto + Monthly go train cost If you value your time at $0. This pandemic has taught me that commuting isn't necessary and chewd up a huge portion of my weekdays. There's only 24 hours a day Monday to Friday. I spend 8 hours sleeping, 8 working and there is 8 remaining. The last thing I want to do is chew up 2 hours of that last remaining 8 to commute. I'm really hoping that the pandemic has opened employer's eyes that employees can work remotely and not have to live near their office. Then that opens up opportunities for homeownership in lower col area and remaining employed in Toronto (or anywhere really)


usernamegoeshereish

Come to Alberta. I bought a townhouse (no condo fees) that was liveable but in need of a bit of work for $208,000 in the suburbs of Edmonton.


trimyster

I bought 20 years ago, thank god, or I could never afford to live in TO. I assume my kids will have to leave the city, unless we can somehow split our small house into apartments, and they don't mind living above and below their mom.


BeavTek

Don't worry. You'll have your pod and plenty of bugs to eat soon enough.


UnoriginallyGeneric

Outside Toronto. We rent a house. If the owners sell and we're forced to move, we may have to look outside Toronto for affordable rentals. Now; we're in a good position because my wife and I work in industries that are predominantly everywhere (she's an assistant manager in retail; I'm an MHE/forklift operator) but I feel bad for people who are forced to move and have specialized positions that pretty much require them to live in the city.


boothbygraffoe

You go to r/Socialism


cdnincali

"If they're to die, then they should hurry up about it and decrease the surplus population" - Denzil, probably


BDR2017

California! super nice to the homeless! Californa-na-na! Super cool to the homeless! Right by Matts house! You can chill if you're homeless! But seriously my city near T.O banned camping in public parks and solved OUR homeless problem almost completely. /S What I am getting at is those who can fix it don't care and the people they displace are an eyesore that hurts the value of the place they have been displaced from for and by the new owner.


p11109

A box on the street. That'll also be $300k. Would you like to pay in full or mortgage it?


Last_Establishment99

Some other, more affordable place of course.. where else? Either that or get roommates. I'm not saying it's just or fair, it's just how it is. Until it changes.


slowpokesardine

Rents are not rising though beyond the set rate every year generally. In fact the rent:price ratio is incredibly in favor of renting being the optimal option instead if buying in most HCOL cities


berniegfn60

Rents are rising 50, 80 ,140% across the country.


smallsociety

The Shwa.


I_Ron_Butterfly

Is the cost of rent actually rising though? I hate to get in the way of another Toronto shitslam, but it seems it’s actually down dramatically, by as much as 40% in some neighbourhoods. Source: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/these-toronto-neighborhoods-see-rent-prices-drop-by-nearly-40-per-cent-1.5443713


Ghostyle

It's down compared to previous years but previous years were high. With COVID "wrapping up", immigration picking up and students moving to Toronto...all signs point to increasing rents


I_Ron_Butterfly

Sure those are all potential issues in the future. Or not, who knows. But if someone feels pushed out by rising rents while they’ve actually been in decline for 18 months, I’d suggest it may be an issue on the other side of their ledger.


[deleted]

Camps organized by the government to handle all the undesirables.


unFATHOMABLEok

The streets. Edit: Or back in time.


StupidWienerPilot

Move to Thunder Bay


siopao888

Saskatchewan.


mrjackdakasic

Move out of downtown toronto to somewhere where they can financially afford?


Lug-Shot

Cobourg has decent home prices but quite far from city. Good luck man I hope this issue is addressed ASAP


GoreyHaim420

Move. Or die.


PterodicktylCloaca

Die