By - Icerman
Could you name the app? Due to certain circumstances, I’m immunosuppressed and losing disability I’m being forced to drive for one of these food service apps, I don’t want to work for a shitty one that treats it’s workers badly.
[Someone else took a guess](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/s7ok1j/ceo_said_if_you_want_to_work_from_home_go_work/htbscyp/):
> OP regular in r/Calgary so I'm gonna guess Skip the Dishes / Just Eat / Takeaway.com
Ahh ok got it.
I work for Skip the Dishes / Just Eat / [Takeaway.com](https://Takeaway.com) (JET). I've created a new account for this so I can't be tracked down or anything.
I can confirm the CEO said something really similar to this in an all hands a few months ago. I remember it enraged me. I will also be leaving when they do it, just wanna grab my bonus first 😅
They want to force everyone back to the office 3 days a week minimum ASAP. No good reason for it other than that they for some reason spent money on more offices during the pandemic. They tried to back it up with a survey recently where one of the questions was how often we'd like to work in the office: 3 days, 4 days, 5 days? No other options. There was so much resentment and kickback from the staff they ended up taking it down.
Not OP, but I used to work for Uber corporate and it was the most toxic environment I've ever been exposed to
Realized within 2 weeks that the environment was actively harmful and sat around on my hands for a few months before getting laid off. Best career choice I ever made
Anyway, upshot is Uber is absolutely terrible from top to bottom. Just avoid their apps entirely
Currently working for an Uber subdivision and they all talk about their "awesome corporate culture" and "we're a big family" but it's still super toxic.
Also corporate culture is the most nonsensical term.
Yo they are saying they are a big family. They didn’t say they were a big family that wasn’t full of backstabbing Assholes that hate each other
I don't think a single food service app is treating it's workers fairly. My personal guess is door dash for this, but it could be any of them frankly.
Yeah I mean the core model of all these delivery apps is exploitative and inefficient as hell. Destructive for everyone except C-Suite and VCs. Devs/biz dev people make good salaries but are still exploited, in the same way that pro athletes might make bank but are still exploited
While the CEO's "work elsewhere" comment is what broke the camels back, the first mistake was setting an expectation that employees in cities without offices were to establish a 1-year relocation plan without assistance.
So you hire me, tell me remote work is all good, then backpedal and tell me I have to relocate. Its your stupid policy so its your stupid responsibility to help your employees do that.
Honestly, is that anything other than bait-and-switch?
"Work elsewhere"... Like doesn't he realize developers are in high demand.
Pretty much all workers are in high demand right now...
However, grabbing the best talent requires sacrifices on the business side. The recruiter we use basically told my management that by not offering work from home we might as well throw away the top 20% of the talent because they wont even entertain an interview with us. Of course our management countered by offering more money for our open positions and the recruiter said it wouldn't really make a difference. The top talent is demanding WFH.
I'm glad it's finally come to that, I've been dreaming of this world for a long time
Were seeing the true post recession market now. The pandemic just sped the process up. People want to work but they also want to work for a fair price. Companies can no longer get away with doing the bare minimum cause people were desperate to work. In my opinion all the pushback on the stimulus checks and extended unemployment was because our politicians knew this would be the outcome and they didn't like that.
Next do the 4 day workweek
I'm working on it, darling
The thing is, these managers who used to make their paychecks wandering around sticking their heads into offices and cubicles to "manage" people are realizing that they don't actually do much to justify their inflated pay, so they're trying to restore the old system before *their* bosses realize how little they do and remove their position.
They fit the bullshit job classification of "Task master". Overly managing and dealing with people who otherwise do not need to be managed. The middle management sector has been one of the fastest growing sectors over the last 35 years. Its in a bubble and its something that there isn't a ton of demand for. There are labor shortages in the economy but not of managers, we have far too many managers.
Pop the bubble!
He's a CEO, so no, he probably doesn't know. They're all scam artists.
The bait and switch is so real right now.
I'm not *really* looking for new work, but with the software scene being what it is you get constantly pestered by recruiters for being an experienced developer, so I've agreed to have conversations with a few companies here and there who seem like they might be cool.
In every case I've been super up front with the recruiters that I'm currently 100% remote and not interested in changing that, and I've been consistently reassured that the positions are fully remote... until you get into an interview with the manager and they start talking about how they'd *really prefer* you came into the office a couple times a week...
It's pretty annoying to waste my time like that, I don't know what they think it's going to accomplish honestly.
Seen some job postings on here that are listed as full remote, but right in the description mention mandatory office time.
"Remote Work" is now just a hashtag, a keyword to get recruits into your pipeline. I just hope every person looking for 100% remote who gets dragged into these ruses calls them out to their face. Maybe if enough people explicitly tell them why they don't want to work there, the employers might realize it's them and not the recruits. Maybe. High hopes there. They'll probably blame Reddit, socialism, or some other stupid scapegoat.
I really don't know why fraudulent job listings are legal.
My favorite that I've seen popping up up indeed is promises of future equity and compensation.
They blame it on the workers with the "Nobody wants to work anymore. They all just want to sit at home and collect unemployment."
No. Nobody wants to work for you with your job postings full of lies, your shitty wages, and your abusive management practices.
Yeah losing over 800,000 people, many being in the working class, is going to affect the workforce.
The funny thing is, in order to fill those jobs up they should allow more legal immigration, but don't tell the conservatives that.
Its funny. My boss has one of his directors lined up to help me with a likely job interview next month cos he really wants me to get promoted.
Like...he's doing everything he legally can to see me earn more.
That's how you get loyalty.
I just saw this exact thing, I had filtered out any jobs that weren’t full time remote and one was listed as such. The first line in all caps was “THIS IS A 100% ON-SITE ROLE NO WORK FROM HOME OPTION” so I reported that shit to the website as a fraudulent job.
As a Gen-Xer who refuses to work in the office anymore or consider any position that’s not 100% remote I find their attempts to blame it on younger generations a reflection on how out of touch the management at some places are.
Especially older managers. I always get a chuckle when they accuse Millennials of getting participation trophies - because 7 year olds participating in sports had any say in the matter. "Haha! We gave you participation trophies!" When did that ever make sense?
Not just IT. Happened to me. I got an offer for a senior level position for a chemical mfg company. I currently live 8 hours away from headquarters. During the interview process I told them many times I want relocating and did not wish to uproot my family.
When I was offered the job it said I had to relocate. Ha. Turned it down on the spot. F them.
At least they told you before you took the job. The _really_ shitty companies, like OP's, will hire you as 100% remote, wait a few months, and _then_ tell you they want you to relocate to their office in Shitsville.
Maybe I'm a spiteful asshole but if this happened to me I think I'd just tell them ok sure immediately start looking for other work, and then just... never show up to their office.
Take another job without telling them. then when they ask you where are, say you "relocated" to another job.
>they'd really prefer you came into the office a couple times a week...
Are they offering housing a couple times a week in the city and transportation there?
Otherwise, why settle for that?
Yeah it's definitely a shady bait and switch. I imagine you could keep working (half assed) and refuse to return to the office. If they eventually fire you it would add to your unemployment case that they lied/backpedalled and placed unreasonable burden on employees to move.
Edit: a word
I'm not a lawyer, or anything, but it kinda feels like, and I hope I'm pronouncing this right: constructive dismissal.
Constructive dismissal is usually a pretty high bar. In the past things like pay cuts and removing benefits have not qualified as constructive dismissal, because the working conditions have to be "intolerable" or the employee basically has to have no other option but to quit. However, the issue of being forced to come into the office after being allowed to work remotely is relatively new, and a pretty strong case could be made that it is constructive dismissal.
>first mistake was setting an expectation that employees in cities without offices were to establish a 1-year relocation plan without assistance.
Yep, I laughed at that. "just move lmao"
As a hiring manager who fought corporate to win a permanent remote situation for my employees, I target these shitty companies for poaching my new talent.
Quite a few of the hires we've made in the past six months or so have been people who cited "mandatory return to office" as their reason for wanting a new job.
“If you won’t let your employees work from home, someone else will.”
Casual Fridays… oh the incentive of wearing a pair of jeans instead of trousers, where will it ever stop!
I prefer casual every day from home, thanks
Beyond casual. Business casual is nice jeans, a button down and hard shoes. Home casual is sweatpants, a t-shirt, and slippers.
My wife has been WFH for 2 years, she works in her PJs and is happy as a cat with a truckload of catnip.
Her company gets it.
When my mom started WFH 20 years ago she invested in nice pijamas and called it officewear. The nickname stuck and I've absolutely done the same in the last 2 years.
Doing this. My collection of fuzzy pants are now officewear.
A t-shirt? Slippers? Slow down there, mister fancy pants.
You wear actual clothing? I have tape over my work laptop's camera...
I'm not wearing any pants.
Minimalist casual 👍
I worked at a place you had to donate to United way to get to wear jeans on Fridays. I didn’t know this and started wearing jeans and was asked where my donation sticker was. Wtf I have to spend my own money for casual Fridays?
Every corpo job I worked had something like that in place.
CVS you had to give 10 bucks for a Jean Pass or "earn" them. TJ Maxx we had to donate 10 bucks to the "party fund" which was a joke cause the food bought with the money cost nothing. Fedex Office, We were once given Jean Passes instead of raise.
I thought my fedex office/print was the only one doing jean passes in place of raises lmfao after that fiasco and my mangers openly mocking the loss of life at a BLM protest, the straw broke the camels back and I literally walked out mid shift when I heard them cackling about the deaths of protestors in the back office while I dealt with a rush of people with the new girl they hired and they refused to come out the office and help.
I told the new girl “I wish you the absolute best of luck with this line, but I know you hear the conversation in the back, and you see the colour of my skin. I’m out. Hope you like jeans on weekends instead of proper pay raises :) if not, I suggest you leave ASAP.”
She quit a week later and went back to her old job and we are still cool to this day lol
*”Would you like to round your purchase up to the nearest dollar foe X charity?”*
When I worked for General Motors, we were forced to sit thru every United Way presentation and management harrassed us until we set up an automatic donation. GM got recognized for being a leading in charitable giving because they could prove they supported and obtained X amount of payroll deductions to United Way.
Still pisses me off to this day. I have always been charitable, but prefer to choose which organization gets my money.
Instead of casual fridays how about I have every day PJ and work from bed day
My canine coworkers would miss me too much boss
Love how many companies are talking about record earnings and unprecedented growth—which took place during WfH—and are now saying it's not productive or efficient. Is it really just people with commercial leases who don't want to look dumb?
Literally yes. My company was about to open a new office right when the pandemic hit so they've been trying to get us back in it on and off this past year. It's still mostly empty and they look stupid. Plus a bunch of the VPs keep showing up to meetings in tiny rooms with mediocre ventilation without masks ... which is against policy. Fuckers.
My company just sold off 75% of our office space and told us we're permanently remote. I am *very* fortunate that I landed with them right before the lockdowns hit my state. Granted, it's a small company, but management actually treats us like human beings, and met with each of us to get our feedback before they decided to go to permanent remote. Sorry to rub it in, but I'm probably the only happy employee on this sub lol
Nah man im sure there are more people like us on this sub than you think. I don’t think its rubbing it in, I think its important to be here to show others that there are companies out there that genuinely care and treat their employees right, and that they shouldn’t have to settle for their current employers bs.
The old school managerial mentality of only being able to manage you when they can see you. They watch metrics like time clocked in instead of work performed. Unsurprisingly this doesn't lead to any sort of actual productivity, but appearances are everything.
When I'm at work, 90% of what I do is making it look like I'm busy. I get all my actual work done relatively quickly, but my job does have a component of being present. Without that, I'd never have to be in the office.
You know it's a comic because the Boss offers "more money" as an incentive to get people back into the office.
I thought it would be an xkcd lmao
Me too, it usually is. But I liked this onetoo
I don't understand why corporations won't jump on the fact that they wouldn't have to rent offices anymore. That's a lot of extra cash for their yachts.
Not just renting itself but all the maintenance and IT guys. Cleaning crew, etc.
It's the same nonsense with single payer health care. Why isn't every employer in the country saying "you know, medicare for all works for me and my 10 employees...they get the healthcare we all need, I get rid of the headache of negotiating insurance plans"?
Because if healthcare/insurance is tied to your employment, it makes it much more difficult to tell your employer to fuck off/leave when you're unhappy. The ACA is the only reason I've been able to pursue self-employment, because prior to that I was uninsurable due to pre-existing conditions (not even major ones like cancer, etc - I'm talking asthma and migraines).
My older brother once opined that nobody gets to 45 without pre-existing conditions. I thought he was kidding. High blood pressure? High cholesterol? Pre-diabetes? There's all kinds of seemingly small stuff that used to get you a higher premium.
And we still charge older people more, even after ACA. It makes older employees less attractive because they raise the group insurance rates.
Plus health care administration is super profitable (plus the carriers make a ton of money). There are a lot of big players that expect big returns in those fields. And I'm sure they are no strangers to lobbying for their causes.
Most leases are going to be long term. For all you know it could be a 15 year corporate guaranteed lease (meaning they can sue the company for breaking the lease).
Aside from that depending on the situation they may have invested heavily in “tenant fit outs”. That’s basically the office building owner giving you what’s called a white box then you going in and making the space yours. When you have a long initial lease term with options to extend for sometimes upwards of 40 years that investment into the space itself makes sense.
I think a lot of c-level executives may have gone and signed off on or campaigned for new office investments and a lot of what they leaned on was pushing how important in person collaboration was. Covid was an excuse to ignore that but now 2-4 years later you have to go back and say all that stuff I said about in person collaboration was wrong let’s go remote.
To me I think that’s why some companies are still trying to live this lie that we need people at the office in person.
It's what's going on with my company. Fortunately they care enough not to force people to work non remote. But Covid started at a time when a lot of money was spent leasing and upgrading major buildings.
The majority of employees selected work remote, including nearly 100% of my team. One of the satellite locations use to have over a hundred people there, but now it's down to less than 5. They commented it's hella expensive to just leave it vacant because they still need someone to regularly come and maintain the building. The cost of maintenance for the several people not doing remote is no different than when it was at 100+ people.
In the eyes of the managers they see this is a sunk cost, but they at least understand forcing many of us to work back in the office is going to be met with a lot of resignations
It’s the logical thing to do is just see it as sunk cost. Forcing people like OP is just creating more sunk cost in employee turnover. Unfortunately a lot of management has too big of an ego to admit when they’re wrong and change course.
They could just market the building as a workers benefit. “A place with free coffee to work if you don’t want to or can’t work from home” while they wait for the lease to expire, then after its expired get rid of the “benefit” due to no one taking advantage of the offer. I would appreciate the options if the Internet at my house was down or something like that. And I’m sure some of my coworkers would like the option so they can hang out. Instead they are unnecessary tyrants about it.
For my company: IT now gets massive amounts of space for the work equipment they fix/set up. They are reconfiguring the rest of the office space for flex space that you can reserve when you need it.
Its not about money. Money for rent on the building goes to their buddies, that's fine.
Its about control. Its about making you feel the collar.
And for middle managers to justify their jobs.
Some middle managers are active, productive members of a team that serve a purpose. Others are dead weight that have their entire work load covered by the competent people they're "managing".
This second group are terrified of working from home, because if they're not *seen* in the office then they can't keep up the pretense that they're working 8 hours a day and should be paid a salary.
Oh wow. You’ve just described my two managers perfectly.
There's a problem in itself that you have two managers.
> Look, it doesn't take a genius to know that every organization thrives when it has two leaders. Go ahead, name a country that doesn't have two presidents. A boat that sets sail without two captains. Where would Catholicism be without the popes?
And 4 managers above them, and ...
Did you get the memo about putting cover sheets on the TPS reports?
Not if they don't know each other exists.... If they meet do they annihilate each other like matter and anti-matter? 🤔🤔
You're thinking of a manager and an antimanager. No idea what happens if two managers meet, presumably it's like bulls in a pasture and they butt heads until somebody is concussed and somebody is in charge
Yeah you can. I don't work in management but I've worked like 2 hours a day from home for a year and everybody thinks I secretly work unpaid overtime because once every week or two I'll answer an email at 8 PM
This is the way, you can up your game by answering it at like 2am.
I used to respond to my boss super late sometimes just so he thought I was working harder than I was. Of course, now I'm the boss and I work that late on my own. Not a win.
even smarter: schedule it to go out at 2am while you're sleeping!
Not exactly though. Randomize the minutes
'sorry about the late email, I've been working on this all night. I'll promise to send you the results before 2:17AM next time!'
Playing 3d chess my man.
Bonus if your home office is on the East Coast and you're on the West Coast. 5 pm email your time becomes 8 pm email their time.
I work under the idea that I get paid to be available for 8 work hours a day. If the business doesn’t have enough tasks to keep me busy all 8 hours, it doesn’t change the fact that I am still obligating my time to work and not sitting on a beach or camping in the woods. As long as I meet or exceed their expectations, I’m still keeping the business profitable.
I *hated* being middle management. I had a team with full responsibilities and things I needed to do to keep it all running; then, higherups would pile me up with bs busy work. When I pushed back, saying that what they needed wasn't on fire, what I was dealing with was, so it would take me a while to get to their bs, I was told I needed to delegate all my work to my team members. Who already had full plates. We could do our actual work in 40h a week but couldn't add on all the utterly unnecessary busywork that higher-ups needed to make themselves feel important.
My entire job was protecting my team from their bs, explaining why we couldn't increase both productivity and quality by 75%. In one meeting, I even explained why it wasn't possible for one person (one FTE) to do the amount of work of 2 FTE in the same amount of time. It's not humanly possible. I know X work takes Y hours. I have 20 reports proving it because you've asked me 20 different ways how long it takes to do X. It is not humanly possible to do X^2 work in Y time.
I said, “you can't have an increase of productivity and quality. It's one or the other right now,” and she looked me square in the face and said, “no, I'll have both.”
Spoiler: she did not, in fact, get both. Quality plummeted to the point of opening ourselves up to litigation. I was laid off because I was required to respond to every single email I received with a resolution in no more than 5 minutes from the send time (bs metric to “justify” laying me off). Fuck you, Becky.
Oh! I forgot to mention that my entire team, including my boss AND my boss’s boss, was located elsewhere (remote US, London, Bucharest, Manila). All of the people on other teams I coordinated with worked remotely in the US. I was denied working from home because I needed to be in the office “to coordinate with people.”
Might I suggest reading this book
I know this is out of context, but it is a great definition of some middle managers:
Consider the lilies, how they grow: they toil not, neither do they spin
I feel the the pandemic is really illuminating how many people are completely overemployed. Yet another reason we need universal basic income.
This is why the endless meetings.
Endless *status update* meetings. Not even product ones. One hour spent just updating some nitwit on the work that *you're* doing so that they can go to another meeting and act like they know what's going on...
I once looked at a project manager's timesheet to see what they did day to day, because I was managing their project and they only asked for a status update after 3 months.
Their request for a status update, a one line email, was booked as half an hour of work.
“Keep the management entertained with anything about work since no direction is available make them come up with something of value to the business and they won’t be able to think of leaving or revolting.”
All of that and more for control freaks who are attracted to middle management
I once had an office supervisor who was so micromanaging that she tried to dictate how often we could use the bathroom and at what times of day. I had to sit her down and delicately explain to her that due to my endometriosis I would absolutely need more than two bathroom breaks a day during certain days of the month… unless she was okay with blood stains on my chair.
She dropped the bathroom thing pretty quickly.
Now that her whole team is WFH I bet she’s losing her mind, ha ha
Holy shit lmao. Is she supervising an office or a chain gang? Some people go completely mad on so little power.
I suspect that there is also a strong push from the many powerful local real estate industries to keep their buildings paid-for and occupied. Especially since many large financial companies also have substantial property holdings and real estate can be held as equity by any number of different influential enterprises. Lots of seemingly disconnected sectors are outgrowths of real estate/property management.
It’s more then just their buddies, many companies have sister companies which are the property holding companies. So they basically just rent to a company held and owned by the same people who own the other. revenue generator machine.
I believe this is the biggest factor right here. The rich and powerful own office buildings and apartments in the city. Not only do they want to keep renting the office to the company, they want you to have to pay 3x the rent on that apartment close to the office. Not to mention the auto manufacturers and oil companies. A lot of CEOs stand to lose a lot of money if work from home continues.
I really agree its about control. Hard to browse LinkedIn and interview for better companies when you're in an open office where everyone can see and hear what you're doing.
WFH levelled the playing field and they don't like that the pendulum swung towards the workers, so they're doing everything they can to swing it back.
I looked at the deeds, all the buildings in this office park are owned by the same family that own all the companies in the office park.
Or they rent the building to themselves and keep it in house.
My company did close our office to save a ton of money, and we work remote full time. Although, I'm sure none of the money they saved will trickle down as more pay, because greed is just as prevalent as control is in the Corporate world.
High in the power trip summarize 80% of the posts on this sub, a lot of shitty managers/C-levels thinking they own the employee.
Some times it is about the money. A lot of cities and states attracted companies to them with tax incentives. Those incentives only payout if the people are working in the city or state. Example my friend was total he could no longer travel to client sites for implementations, a key part of his job, because his salary was essentially being paid by the state. If was out of state the company bhad to pay it.
That is the thing, all of capitalism is deadfully, hopelessly inefficient. That is because it is built from the ground up to be about power.
The 1-2 hours workers are gaining by not commuting are 1-2 hours they can spend enjoying themselves, relaxing, or, worse, looking for new work, unionizing, or protesting this awful system. Even if it’s not something they’re thinking about, it’s something in the back of their mind.
Immediately after getting off work, instead of spending an hour in traffic driving home, I like to take a one hour nap. I wake up refreshed and ready to enjoy my evening.
Agreed. My company is pushing to go to a "hybrid" model in a couple months. They sunk a TON of money into their office spaces before the pandemic (I'm talking renovating/branding their 3+ floor offices in 2 major US cities - had to be millions on millions) and it seems they made the call at the beginning of the pandemic they were worth holding onto and waiting it out. Now, even with omicron surging, they still want us to go back - probably just to justify 2 years of paying sky high rent on sparkling new offices that nobody is using.
Hey actually, the not renting the buildings anymore is exactly WHY they are demanding workers come back! Lots of people and corporations got really rich after the 2008 housing bubble burst. They bought up tons of properties and began renting the out. This includes commercial properties that are rented out for offices all over America.
If a majority of white collar American workers were allowed to work from home, thousands of office buildings would be left standing empty with no tenant to pay the rent. The corporations would then be on the hook to pay off their investments on their own.
This is inevitable no matter how badly current owners wish it not to be.
Whether it's working from home or increasing automation through more sophisticated software reducing the need for human beings inputting data in to said software, office buildings are going to become increasingly vacant to the point we will need to remodel them to become housing or serve another purpose than housing electronic paper pushers.
-an electronic paper pusher
Thanks for the article link. I’ve been reading a fair bit about this. This is a huge part of the push.
Access to this article might be blocked by a paywall. Here's a free copy:
>[They Want You Back at the Office - New York Times \(April 30, 2021\)](https://archive.vn/K6XUS)
Exactly. But as someone pointed out there is an aspect of control that they miss out on by having employees work from home. Plus some companies love to brag about having offices in certain buildings or office "around the world". If only they counted each of our home offices....then they would have lots more offices to brag about. My entire team works as part of home office and we are all remote...none of us even live in the same city as home office and we are spread across the country and it works perfectly fine.
I think its because WFH made many members of management realize that they don't actually do anything. It's way easier to justify an unnecessary mqnagement job if you can sit there in an office and be seen looking busy instead of having to come up with some sort of way to track your work from home.
> I think its because WFH made many members of management realize that they don't actually do anything.
I think you're right, but I take it in another direction. I think a lot of upper management, working from home, realized that they have a lot of free time during the day. They're sitting there thinking, "If I have all this free time, then employees must be sitting around not working for a lot of the day. That's time theft." So they want to wrangle people back into the office where they think they'll have no choice but to work.
The c-suite is getting parties and rewards spending money with CBRE or Sotheby's for renting from them. It's really about control though, knowing you're in the building and capable of bullying you at will.
They want to come in when they feel like it and push you around.
I was gonna say, I bet they all hold stock in CBRE and are buddies with those c-suiters. It’s all a game of “pass the dollars” to them.
Exactly, their stock holdings include a TON of real estate. It's stable and reliable....and also self funded.
But yeah, so often it's about making sure the free 'benefits' keep coming. Whether that's free trips, dinners, or straight up cash, it's cheap for a big firm to drop 500K on parties for 3M a month in rent from a large firm renting the entire high rise.
But… the team collaboration! How will we all talk together?! My managers love seeing the water cooler talk.
It's about control and lack of trust. They want to be able to see you're working, and if they can't see it with their own two eyes, you could be slacking off. And they want to be able to see if you're slacking off so they can tell you to get back to work.
A lot of companies use the collar to give fake benefits - they become uncompetitive without that control.
Also, a lot of managers/boss I've had are POS and their families hate them beyond their income. They spend so much time in the office because when they go home its to people that hate them.
Because their shareholders own the shares for the companies that own the buildings. They want the money flow back.
Bravo. I work remotely and actually enjoy my job, but, the day they tell me I need to return to the office is the day I make them fire me. Our team has been doing the job successfully and remotely since Mid 2020 - it's just about the illusion of control. Companies need to fully embrace remote work or face becoming obsolete.
One of the critical old-timer coworkers of mine was moving 20 hours away (edit: in actual distance, it is approximately 1,587km or 986 miles. She moved from a city near Toronto, Ontario all the way to Moncton, New Brunswick) to her new retirement location while we were remote, before anyone had any kind of plan on how to come back to the office. They told her she couldn't, and since she was probably just going to retire anyhow, she said "Ok. I quit." and then suddenly oh wait we can make an exception, oh what can we do blah blah.
It's so fucking funny to watch someone try to call your bluff when you're not bluffing at all and how fucking quickly they scramble in the next immediate sentence out of their mouths.
I just moved a few hundred miles away and dared them to fire me. I got a raise instead.
We had a guy move to hawaii and everyone's like.... uhhh ... how?
Haha that’s awesome. I think the work from home revolution is the best thing to come out of Covid. Most people I know are only working 4 hours a day and still crushing there jobs
Same, and I don’t have to iron shirts anymore
How would you make them fire you? As a software engineer I do the absolute bare minimum but even if I did nothing I still don’t think they’d let me go
Well, if they told me to return to the office, I'd just disregard that and continue to work remotely until they decided either to fire me for not coming in or decided that forcing me to come in wasn't worth losing my labor.
Yo how do I land a gig like that?
The WFH pandoras box has been opened and there is no closing it.
Companies that want to attract the best talent will at least have to offer hybrid working.
I work in software, and I’d say that the preference seems to be 80/20 remote to in office. Even those who still live nearby are saying they’d rather stay home.
I wouldn’t mind being in the office 1-2 days a week assuming the rest of my project team would be there.
It is useful to be able to do stuff face to face in my opinion. However it’s not absolutely necessary and I’d be fine with fully remote.
I just never want 5 days a week in office again.
That's just it, I went in a couple days this year, still spent most of the day on video calls, just in a cubicle that's smaller than my home office with smaller monitors and without my dog and cats coming to visit me.
I did enjoy seeing my coworkers again, but not enough I'd do it weekly let alone multiple times a week. I'm good with going in maybe once a month, realistically every few months when an actual good reason to meet I'm person comes up like I have been.
I once worked for a company that hired people with a remote first policy. Then the CEO suddenly got the bright idea to rent an expensive office in Santa Monica and demanded everyone uproot themselves to move there. Those who didn't were laid off with a severance package. Needless to say we took the severance package.
That company is now out of business as that policy caused many people to live. The talent drain was insurmountable.
Don't ever let anyone tell you the CEO is the smartest person in the room.
>Don't ever let anyone tell you the CEO is the smartest person in the room.
Often just the most power-tripping trustafarian in the room who was born and bred to exploit labor (and the planet) because they are too inept and lazy to run a business sustainably.
I'm a software QA and you DO NOT want me coding anything 😆
I worked on a team that said “we don’t need QA, all the QA on this team either needs to become an engineer in 6 months, find a different team, or you’re fired.”
Then they made the QA that busted their ass and become engineers do the QA work still and didn’t bump their pay because they were still doing QA work.
We must have worked for the same place
Some of the best developers I've worked with started out in QA.
Oh yeah no doubt I'm sure. I originally tried to go in as a dev and realized there are just people who it came way more naturally to than it did for me. I get how things work and that's good enough for me to know break them and help make products better and that's fine by me.
Why is there a need for office again?
Some companies own real estate that they can leverage when market conditions are right. It figures into their asset valuation.
Remote collapses that because it becomes a financial burden.
In other words, “they took a risk” and they don’t like losing.
I see. Thanks. I keep seeing articles on facebook saying how offices is going to make a comeback and polls saying how workers are eager to go back to office. I can't imagine anyone is excited to spend 3 hours daily just for commuting.
Those articles are trying to manufacture a narrative.
Most of the articles about the great resignation ignore the real reasons and try to manufacture narratives that point the finger anywhere but a shitty boss or toxic management.
Yeah the recent 60 Minutes piece about "The Big Quit" (not "The Great Resignation") only showed it from the perspective of the companies and pushed the "nobody wants to work" narrative.
Nothing from the perspective of the workforce, no mention of stagnant wages or manufactured inflation. Nothing about corporations posting record-breaking profits. Just a report on how workers are greedy and lazy and that *there's nothing the company can do, it's not our fault!*
I used to respect 60 Minutes despite most mass media being captured by corporatists, seems like they've been captured, too. But that's probably my fault, they wouldn't have had to sell out if workers hadn't been so greedy and lazy, right?
That 60 minutes report was garbage. Interview 4 business owners and the construction CEO flat out says: “Its a worker problem”. Just more propaganda to cushion the blow to the boomers.
Some fraction of 'news' is just advertising.
I have coworkers who were really eager to get back into the office (not managers)
I don't get it either. I've been to the office twice in two years now and both of those times were unnecessary.
But those people exist. They're just (in my experience) drastically over-sampled
Yup, I have one coworker specifically who can’t wait to get back in the office. I think it’s mostly the extroverts that want to go back so bad because there isn’t the stimulus at home, but of all the people I work with he is in the minority in wanting to go back.
Personally I’m more of a fan of Hybrid with heavy work from home. I sometimes do just need to get out of the house because being home all the time is depressing. But 90% of the time I would rather work from home, especially with early morning meetings all the time due to working with a team in India. I’m not a morning person, so no way in hell I’m getting up in time to get to the office to take a 6am or 7am call on zoom just so I can be there for the day. I’d rather go in either when there is really a reason to, or when I just need to get out of the house.
I'm a huge extrovert, and I will never work in an office again. I socialize outside of work. Working from home is just incomparably better. It's non-negotiable.
However, I have a two bedroom apartment to myself. I turned the second bedroom into my office. My coworkers who want to go back to the office usually have children at home or don't have an office. I think the real determining factor is if you have a separate space where you can focus.
One essay on how these articles are used to create talking points is called [The Submarine](http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html).
> *Why do the media keep running stories saying suits are back? Because PR firms tell them to. One of the most surprising things I discovered during my brief business career was the existence of the PR industry, lurking like a huge, quiet submarine beneath the news. Of the stories you read in traditional media that aren't about politics, crimes, or disasters, more than half probably come from PR firms.*
> *Where the work of PR firms really does get deliberately misleading is in the generation of "buzz." They usually feed the same story to several different publications at once. And when readers see similar stories in multiple places, they think there is some important trend afoot. Which is exactly what they're supposed to think.*
My company did a survey, everyone I asked afterwards said they put they wanted to continue to work from home yet when the results came out, apparantly overwhelmingly we voted to return to the office.
My company did a survey too and my director showed our 4 person team a graph of the results. It went something like this:
32% wanted full remote
28% wanted to come into the office 1-5 days a month
35% wanted hybrid, coming in 2-3 days a week
5% wanted full time in office
My director said the company was going with hybrid since it had the most votes, but I pointed out that the company giving both the options of “remote” and “1-5 days a month” split that voting group into two.
Of course a person who voted for fully remote would prefer to come into the office 1-5 days a month over 2-3 days a week, so effectively 60% of the company wants to come into the office 0-5 days a month, and yet here we are with a hybrid model smh.
My director told me I was crazy for suggesting to add the results together. Wish we had had ranked choice voting!!!
I've seen that narrative from talking heads on various news and business/financial shows. Almost always the talking head is some kind of C-level exec of a some company or other.
I've worked remote for almost 2 years, I never plan on going to an office again, and I don't know a single person that wants to do full time in an office. Those articles most likely aren't terribly genuine.
Used to commute 70miles twice a day in SoCal. Wake up at 4am. Met with a carpool, got to work at 6am. Worked till 3ish, got home around 6pm. Sometimes id get home later than that.
Family and illness was the biggest factor as to why I didn't just move (plus it was cheaper). I did this for 5 years. Managed to get a full remote job before the pandemic hit. Haven't looked back.
I am never returning to traditional office work.
> In other words, “they took a risk” and they don’t like losing.
This is the thing that radicalized me the most.
Rich people take risks with their money, fine I can deal with that.
But when the risk doesn't pay off all of a sudden they want to change conditions to recoup that loss.
No you gambled and lost, eat the loss, just like I would have to if I made a bad risk.
You can't individualize the gains and collective the losses.
Privatize the gains, socialize the losses.
The rich will always try and cheat to get ahead.
What was the company? I used to work at Grubhub, and it was total shit. Dickhead maniacal CEO who once said "I mean, you guys would work here even if we didn't pay you right? You love working here."
These people are nuts.
Wtf? That is really psychotic.
I seriously don’t understand by more companies just didn’t embrace WFH/remote as a competitive advantage after the first year of the pandemic. People are more productive and happier when given the flexibility to work remotely. You also aren’t tied to one geographical location for hiring, so you potentially could get better talent. Makes so much sense, but then companies are pulling the crap on people.
Its the real estate. Some companies even own the buildings they operate out of. The ones that rent usually have connections to the owner and WFH destroys those fragile relationships which is absolutely hilarious.
Typical. Mandatory meetings and forcing people to come to work is about stroking management's ego and the need for control. This is true for any large organization, not just corporations. I work for LA Unified, and every Tuesday we have mandatory Professional Development, faculty and/or department meetings. Sometimes these meetings go for one hour, sometimes two.
Almost all of the information delivered could be sent via email. Most of the time, they really have nothing new to report, just the standard reminders: get your grades in, take attendance daily, monitor your hall pass, don't let kids eat in class, make sure everyone is masked. The faculty loathes the nannyish behavior, but if you don't attend a meeting you'll be called into either the principal or assistant-principals office (we got five of them, don't ask) to explain yourself.
Just like a kid.
If you do work for the private sector, and you have some flexibility to work from home, never work for a place that demands you come into the office. Life is too short, don't waste it on a commute to work to live in a cubicle.
A smart CEO that went into an empty office would see this as an opportunity and size down the office so that they would pay less rent and other costs like water/electricity/maintance etc.
An old boomer CEO that went into an empty office saw that as a threat because he didn't have a chance to boss anyone around.
Yeah I’m pretty happy that our CEO just came out and said nope. Work from home permanently if you wish. We will do an everyone together town hall once a year and the company said they’ll even pay for those employees not near us to come as well. They’ve also opened up working in different regions too (this complicates things a bit due to taxes and other accounting stuff but they claim to have found a way to accommodate this).
Also able to do a modified 4 day work week.
Don’t mean to brag, but I do mean to point out that there are companies out there that don’t have their head up their asses about this.
Edit: Unfortunately, I can’t provide more details. If you Google though, I’m sure it’ll come up since our head of people made a point to address our modified work week quite publicly on LinkedIn. My point is just do your research and definitely take these things into consideration when choosing your next company. You can leave one place hoping to avoid bullshit if the next place has the same bullshit.
My work does our annual bonus in February. I'm just waiting to see how bad the mass exodus is after everyone gets paid. We've been given a break for Jan for return to office, but prior to that they were pushing really heavy for us to come back in to their super expensive prison like building. Should mention ton of us there are developers. They keep pushing collaboration and togetherness- like wtf, I work with these people. They ain't my friends. I dont care if I see them.
There are def some people swallowing the work Kool aid, but I've noticed most of those are people facing jobs or super extrovert people.
I wish they'd just let those of us that want remote to stay that way. Let the chatterboxes go in and fill the place up with inane conversations.
Oh and I should also mention, prior to covid we didn't even have enough space for everyone. We'd rotate days from home and in office cause there wasn't enough desks. Also they had shortage on parking, having people park at a different location with a shuttle to being them into work.
LMAO, do we work at the same place?
My workplace wants to go back to the office, but at least they are considerate of the current condition. They listen to the in-house doctors, and right now the doc is recommending everyone to WFH to avoid the plague. We've been WFH since 2020 and we've adjusted, but some of the higher ups are just itching to go back to the office.
OP regular in r/Calgary so I'm gonna guess Skip the Dishes / Just Eat / Takeaway.com
what i don't understand is how people are finding new jobs so easily. i can't find anything worth a damn near me and i'm in a popular area smh.
The fight over remote policy was a lightbulb moment for me. There is no economic argument for forcing people back into offices; offices are more expensive and people produce less and quit more. Remote makes the company more money.
It’s all about control.
If I was an investor I’d sue for destroying shareholder value, after firing the C Suite
Sounds like SkipTheDishes.
I heard JETs CEO said something very similar to all employees a few months ago in Europe banging the 'were not remote drum', and ALOT of the tech staff either already slid into new rules or are on the cusp of picking up other roles that do have at least 3-4days remote.
I keep hearing the same rhetoric. About collaboration in the office and we work better physically together. I work remote from my team anyways, what does it matter if I'm in an office or not?
And the icing on the cake is wondering why they can't "retain talent"... It's like watching somebody hit themselves, asking why does their face hurt.
We can say all day long, until we're blue in the face, that you told people to leave if they wanted to work from home and refuse to change your policies. That if you did hire remote workers, you could get the best talent because you would have your pick from all over the country or internationally. That the studies showed working from home improved morale, decreased stress, and made people's work life balance better. There's a lot that probably wouldn't be leaving even if thier pay was a little less than the competition, but you refuse to acknowledge that.
I wish I could do this. My job can EASILY be done from home. I got to the office to just sit here on the computer all day and interact with no one. My boss (who isn’t the decider of remote working) let us wfh on occasion if we ask so she knows it can be done and my department was wfh for a year before I started. But they just won’t budge and it seems like it will always be this way. I’ve been applying to other jobs simply because I want to wfh. I love my job a lot actually and would love to not leave but it’s frustrating. I’ve applied everywhere!