DO NOT RESIGN. Do nothing. If they drop it great. Worst case they fire him and he gets unemployment.
Edit: also, admit to nothing. They’ll use it against him. And keep a paper trail.
They told him if he doesn't resign voluntarily they will fire him and then he will have to repay the relo package they gave him to move across the country to take the position
I'm an agency recruiter, and I can tell you that in my experience anyone who resigns before the term set out in the relocation agreement *WILL* pay back the relo package. Firings typically not.
Do not let him resign. There's something very suspect happening, and this company is 100% lying about that relo money.
Just read that it's 20k in relo? My spider senses say the company is hoping to get that back. If he quits, he will 100% be on the hook for it.
Also, usually when someone misspends a per diem, the first course of action is to ask for repayment. There's something really fishy here.
Track down all the documentation that's available, and send it all to personal emails/devices. He's likely not going to be working there in the future, but right now you/he needs to minimize the damage that's coming.
Texts to the supervisor confirming that the spending was done under their authorization, all the documents relating to the trip, the original employment agreement, the relo agreement, everything.
The truth, or something like it, will come out in the end.
I'm sorry this is happening.
If he uses Google maps you can often look at your history and see what stores/locations you have been to. If he legit needs to prove anything, dm me if he needs help
True. I often use Google maps location history to know at what time I was at what customer, so I can fill my paperwork.
If you've got location history enabled, you can know, with a reasonable degree of confidence, where you've been and at what time.
Be careful what you send to your personal accounts. This used to be great advice, but with DLP software more common, you can get in trouble for emailing business things to yourself. While it's not as convenient, screenshot things on your monitor with your phone.
Sending your own employment documentation to yourself cannot be held against you. It isn't private or confidential information if it is related to you own employment. This is fear mongering that HR loves to hand out.
I used to audit these types of expenditures in the past. You’d be surprised how many of the receipts you’ll be able to get copies of if you reach out to the vendors. If he paid by card, his statement + google maps should be able to help him track down phone numbers.
Be sure to have the date of purchase (_not to be confused with the date it posts to your statement._ You’re going to want the date you actually swiped), the last 4 of your card, and if you know the exact amount that is sometimes helpful. If paying with cash that’ll be a bit different but you get the gist of it.
A little elbow grease and you may be able to catch them in their own lie bc they are definitely up to something. This is *not* how any of this works. I promise. Good luck!
$100 a day per diem for international hardly seems worth the cost to audit to me. You say you're an auditor, what's your experience say to that? I've never been told 'no receipts needed' for my travel, but it seems like a waste of resources just because the dollar amount is reasonable.
Of course my company just spent $10k to recoup $900 in overpayment, so I guess nothing should be surprising.
I’m not sure if $100 is a lot or a little but in my field there is nothing that isn’t audited and every account is reconciled down to the penny. Any cross-border conversions /currency exchanges are even accounted for as gains/losses.
Especially since, $100 may seem like nothing compared to the millions that are budgeted and spent but $100 across who knows how many people being paid per diem will absolutely add up.
As many people are pointing out here, the manager is likely in on it. Nothing about this is passing the smell test. Not clearly explaining to him that he needed to keep/submit receipts and then trying to get him to can himself over it…?? Also, if he didn’t sign some sort of agreement when receiving the per diem money outlining the what was required of him in regards to the money (ie making sure to have itemized receipts for all purchases. That all receipts much clearly show the date of purchase and total amount, etc) AND outlining what types of purchases are allowed (ie no alcohol or tobacco allowed. 20$/€ maximum /meal allowed, etc) -then I can’t see how he could possibly be heels responsible for not complying the on the very first time. *Much less* it being a fireable offense for breaking a rule that -as far as he knew- didn’t exist.
The whole thing is fishy.
Feels SUS; don’t resign! Don’t sign anything. Lawyer up. Normally before termination or in this case being asked to resign they would ask for him to show documentation that he spend it on what he claimed. They are just trying to sweep dirt under the rug it feels like. If he resigns he will be on the hook for a lot more than he should be.
He works for a shady ass company. No one important enough for billable international trips with per diems is ever questioned about this shit, unless there’s corporate fuckery afoot.
whole thing seems really fishy.
$100 per day as a per diem isn't really even that much for them to be making such a fuss over it. My suspicion is that they are trying to claw back the relocation money by forcing your husband to resign.
Yeah, this made my hackles stand up.
I once accidentally used my company card to buy gas since it’s the same color as my regular credit card. Boss called me and asked what was up, was so worried about getting fired. He laughed and said how people do it all the time and just pay it, no one cares. They just try to maintain a zero balance.
Being told to resign rather than pay is highly suspect.
Wow my work freaked out hard when I accidentally used a company card to pay for parking one time. I had to repay (no big deal $5) and then they took my work credit card away.
It generally costs more money to try and recoup the loss from an error like that than it does for the company to eat it and say “try and be more careful next time.” This is definitely a little over the top.
I think at that job they were unhappy about me exercising my rights under the ADA, but they couldn’t legally complain about that so they found any other tiny thing I did wrong to put the screws to me.
Isn't the point of a per diem that it's literally just for you to spend? At my husband's work it's fairly common for people to just keep the per diem and eat as cheaply as possible in order to get extra pocket money and that is completely acknowledged as ok to do. Otherwise they would get a company credit card and in that case they would have to keep receipts and justify each expenditure.
Also I'm pretty sure that standard practice with relocation is that if you resign you have to pay it, if they fire you they are on the hook for it.
Then why do they want him to resign. They can’t legally ask for that money back if they’re the ones firing him right?? I mean I’m sure they could add it to the list of things they make up.
Yup...it probably has nothing to do with his performance or per diem on the trip.
They are looking to scrape up cash however they can.
He should be sending copies of emails to a personal email and recording every meeting.
This is solely industry/employer based. Possibly state law as well idk about the latter tho.
My company has a set daily per diem and receipts are required, no alcohol purchases allowed to be reimbursed
Exactly. I’m not a recruiter, but what they are supposedly telling him sounds ridiculous. Is there a contract that outlines what happens in the event of firing versus resignation?
100% there should have been a contract related to the relo. If there wasn't, I would assume that the courts would treat that money as a bonus, making it non-recoverable.
(Obligatory "I'm not a lawyer")
I agree that this sounds backwards. Payback clauses are designed to prevent workers from getting out of their obligations, whether it’s relocation, tuition reimbursement, etc. The company doesn’t want you to get them to move you, and then have you change jobs.
But if the company decides that they are going to let you go, then they will just let the money go too. Unless they have a mountain of evidence of really serious malfeasance, they’re not likely to even bother with court.
Get an employment attorney ASAP.
The following should be considered fan fiction and not serious advice:
Usually getting the relocation money back from a termination requires an adversarial finding for the termination (read: your husband was incompetent, stole, committed fraud).
If, however, he resigns, then they can demand that money back.
It’s possible that you could win a fraud case against them over their promises they’re likely going to reneg on, but by agreeing to the deal in the first place you’ve already demonstrated you’re suckers who won’t consult an attorney, so why not get all that money for the asking.
Go watch Congressional testimony when someone ~~is suspected of doing~~did wrong, and all they do is repeat “I do not recall,” over and over again. Hub’s answer to all spending requests is that he was on a trip under the guidance of [supervisor name goes here].
I mean, I would consult an employment attorney, but if someone held a gun to my head and asked me to guess the shape of what would say, it would be, “Do not communicate with them further, I will inform them to route all communications through me,” but then secondarily, something like that.
Are they willing to put in writing that they're waiving the relocation fee in exchange for his resignation? Because, if not, I wouldn't trust that shit for a moment.
The opposite is much more likely -- they're asking for his resignation so they can claw back the relo money.
Just guessing but those paybacks usually require you quitting (hence their request for him resigning) or firing for cause (which they can’t do since he did nothing wrong).
They can always fire you. Employers have a lot more legal protection than employees.
However, they cannot fire you and force you to repay relo package. Generally, those clauses are built in a way where the repayment is only from voluntary resigning/leaving/etc. Firing is involuntary, and therefore they cannot force someone to pay for a contract that was broken involuntarily.
My relocation said if I quit I'm on the hook. If I am terminated I do not have to pay it back. Got let go from a job 7 months in. Not performance based but just reducing head count. I didn't pay anything back... In fact I got 3 month package from them. I ended up making more money on relocation and termination then I did working at the place.
The paper is almost always if you leave within x amount of time you are responsible for paying back relocation. Thus sounds like they are lying and trying to get a sure way of recouping that relocation package
Right?! What's the logic supposed to be here? "We're pissed because we think you ripped us off and we want you gone, but we're asking you to resign, which will totally let you keep 20k, because we're just so gosh darn nice." Bullshit.
He should not cooperate with any of this. You may want to consider an employment attorney very soon.
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense that if he can resign without paying back the relocation package but does if he is fired.
Either way, resigning is not in his interest. He will not get unemployment and if they aren't willing to fire him why are they asking for a resignation?
Yah they don’t send you on an international training then care about how you spent your per diem.
I’d say no thanks, I think I’ll keep working here. Then let them fire me.
I wonder if somewhere between reality and this post terms were mixed up. Usually per diem is paid to you and it's up to you to use it. So if you get $100 a day per diem, then it's up to you to eat. It's usually not in your best interest to use it all. Yet the post mentions "expenses".
That was our suspicion as well. It was especially strange that it has been a few weeks without any communication from his super at all so we had a feeling something was up. We just didn't think it would be this.
Please, please, please don’t let him resign. It’s never a good idea. He will be 100% on the hook for repayment otherwise, with little to no chance to fight it. Let them fire him please.
Most likely thing that happened here is his supervisor was pissed about something HIS boss did and thought that they could get away with saying "fuck you" to the company by overspending what the supervisor was told was allowed, and shit roles down Jill.
Maybe try r/legaladvice.
He could try asking why they want him to resign over something approved and encouraged by his supervisor. That he thought it was allowed since his supervisor told him to use the per diem there.
If you're in a one party consent state and can do so legally, secretly record all these conversations and their reactions. I'm not sure if you can on private property, bit I think you can? I'd ask r/legaladvice this too. Or you can just email it.
The reason they want him to resign is so that they can avoid unemployment and lawsuits probably. Up to you how much resistance you give them. Personally, I don't actually understand what benefit resigning gives anyone.
It wasn't even that. He'd have a week where he'd go in for several hours a day a few days in a row and then a week to ten days just sitting in his shitty 1-star hotel. And yes, he's still there. It wasn't entirely the supers fault as the company they are contracted to do work for was responsible for providing training on their process, etc. That being said, had everything been coordinated better upfront, the training could have been completed in a week rather than him being gone for 2 months
Wait, the company they are contracted to work for failed training, and stretched out a week session for 8 weeks?
And you stated the other employee left and your hubby is the only one still working, aside the supervisor?
This sounds like they lost their contract and are trying to reduce the bleed by getting 20k back.
At maximum, on a prorated amount, after 7 months, you would be looking at about 8000. That would not drag this to litigation for that amount.
Let them fire. When they keep the last paycheck, take the info to the labor board.
If he is already locked out of his work computer, email, and office… he is fired. They are trying to save face.
Just my two cents
Yeah, unfortunately a lot of companies may be having second thoughts about the money they spent hiring people last year and how much salary they are paying.
Per diem doesn’t mean no receipts. Legally, the company can have processes in place to require receipts.
However, this just sounds all fishy. $100/day and they are letting him go? There is definitely more to this story than what’s being presented here.
Don’t sign anything they’ve drawn up.
Especially, a resignation letter. There could be noncompete garbage in it.
You want to explore options with an attorney. For about $35, you can call your local bar association to get someone to talk to you to see if you need an attorney, and if so, what it’s going to cost.
I know someone who traveled overseas on per diem, had no idea they were supposed to use public transit and racked up a decent bill.
If there’s an employee handbook defining what is required for spending proof, that would be helpful. Typically, it’s only meals and transportation and beyond that would need to be repaid.
There isn't a handbook and they didn't require any receipts. Only asked for him to submit an expense report, the details, format, and content of which changed several times during his time abroad.
I thought the whole point of a per diem was to give a set amount so no receipts or expense claims were required. Otherwise isn’t it just a daily limit??? At least that’s the meaning in my country. Maybe consult a lawyer on that point
That's always been my experience too. Per diem = it's your money, keep it, spend it on hookers & blow, whatever. Expenses = keep receipts, report everything and some/all gets reimbursed.
Agreeing with the person who suggested a quick consult with an attorney.
Receipts are required by every company ever because the IRS accepts an assortment of reports like expense reports and credit card statements but those must be backed up by supporting documents. Even if he didn’t have to submit the receipts, it seems odd that they wouldn’t insist that he keep them and be able to produce them if needed, which is still odd.
Guidelines for per diem expenses are very well defined.
I just returned from a trip and have six different per diem amounts dependent on the city, five being international. None of the cities had less than $100 /day, most were over ~$130.
Seems like giving him carte blanche to do whatever and the resulting fallout seems like a set up.
That there isn’t an employee handbook and with the reporting process changing, they may be in violation of a few of your labor laws in ways you might not be aware of as well.
I’m assuming the charges are on his company card. They can’t verify the existence of some of the stores? They are suggested fraud!?
I would document everything you can and contact an attorney for advice. Don’t sign anything
If they thought they had nothing to worry about, they would have just fired him. This isn’t the joint chiefs for fucks sake. The fact that they are trying to force a resignation, tells you what you need to know… they are worried about liability. And the relocation payback is a bluff. I’ve been relocated many times and I promise you it costs far less than it would to sue you for it. Besides giving up your right to sue, by resigning, you also are giving up unemployment benefits. If you apply for that and they contest it (by saying he was fired for cause) then you can appeal that decision
I had a female coworker who asked me to join her and a much more senior and respected individual in our company for an afterwork get-together out of the blue during our break, I couldn't make it to the get-together and told her to just go and have fun. Well something happened during that get-together and I was dragged into HR a few days later. I told them what I know, but they were concerned about her. On reflection, she did feel apprehensive about the get-together.
He was asked to resign, and instead of resigning, he went on vacation. She was also asked to resign and she did. They cleaned out his office while he was on vacation and removed access to his badge. Since our industry was small then, he was blacklisted and even after I had joined a competitor, his story is known there. He should had resigned.
I found out that they went to a hotspot where other employees like to frequent, and he was hitting on her hard and made her felt very scared. She told her co-workers about it the next day, and they told her to go to HR.
I couldn't speculate but her manager helped her found a new job at his previous place of employment. We ran into each other a few other times, and she had moved on.
Just wanted to chime in about your resignation comment, when the HR investigation was completed on my former boss and they found out about all the harassment and shady stuff he’d been doing they asked him to resign rather than fire him. He gave a few months notice and it was awkward as heck since the HR director told him what I had reported so that was great. Anyway just wanted to mention that I wouldn’t chalk up too much about the whole not firing thing
Slow down and take breath.
As what many users have said, this action is wildly suspicious. Asking to resign and not having to pay back a relocation is very unusual if termination results in the payback. That's a very odd conflict.
Is there a job contract? Are there terms in that about the relocation? Was there a specific document signed for the relocation package that spells out what happens if there is a termination or resignation?
This very, very odd what you have described. Most of us have the gut reaction there is about to be some massive fraud.
I have a feeling your husband will resign and the company will still demand the relocation money with the threat of a lawsuit. But since he resigned he no longer has any standing for unemployment or to fight the demand, as I suspect there is something buried in the relocation agreement that a resignation results in a pay back (pretty common).
I really, really think you need to at least consult with an Arizona licensed attorney that specializes in contracts and employment law. You can search for one here:
https://www.azbar.org/for-lawyers/practice-tools-management/member-directory/
Do not sign anything. Start communicating in writing (email is fine). Make them put their demands in writing.
The fact that 6 weeks later they are playing this game is another red flag. If this was such a big deal, why wasn't it addressed immediately? What happened to the supervisor that gave him instructions on what he could do?
That’s the whole point of perdiem. You no longer have to submit receipts for food etc. if you give me $100 per diem how I spend it is my own choice. Something is really, really fishy here.
Moreover, to argue over $100/day per diem internationally is rather petty. Airport prices are insane. You might have to do laundry, take taxis, eat at resturants, buy all water consumed. While certain countries are perceived as "cheap" you're often charged the American business traveler inflated prices.
If inappropriate, the first step would be to not reimburse for anything they deem non-reimburseable: bribes and sex trade (yeah, that seems extreme but this is an example of a legit hard "no" regardless of what was promised).
To fire someone for spending too much is usually based on payouts that later are determined to be habitually fruadelent and/or mischaracterized.
This, I have never been in a company that required receipts for per diem. That is your money to do with as you please. I knew people who would bag their lunch to keep more of the per diem.
“Let me consult my lawyer and I’ll get back to you” is what he should say. Agree, don’t resign. Also, read the paperwork he signed! A lawyer might truly be the best option.
>“Let me consult my lawyer and I’ll get back to you” is what he should say.
exactly! Especially when they start using the fraud word. OP's significant other could wind up in some legal mess... civil action... maybe even charges. A lawyer would be the best bet.
They said if he doesn't submit the letter and voluntarily resign, he will be fired and have to repay the relo package they gave him to move across the country 7 months ago for the position.
I'll also throw in there he works in semiconductor manufacturing. He has over a decade of experience. They told him he'd be hired on at a certain pay rate and then his official offer was a couple dollars an hour less than what was initially promised. Then they hired on a guy with an engineering degree but 0 experience, newly graduated from college, at over 100k salary. He knew nothing and lasted about 4 weeks before he quit. That left my husband as their only employee who is now being asked to resign.
TBH this was what I was imagining, too. Like, they're not offering him any GOOD choice, just a bad one and a worse one. That makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end.
Honestly if it's semiconductors and they deal with China in any way it becomes a massive problem after the Biden order on preventing Americans or American companies doing semiconductor work for Chinese firms
Shit, 20 years ago when I got per diem it was handed to me in cash.
Later, when I did accounting, I learned there was a threshold. Anything below a certain amount per day, based on location, and didn't require receipts. It was also split by room and board (food).
It's a pretty low threshold. Our room was paid for so we got $25 a day for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Sounds like the financial comptroller fucked up and/or they're trying to screw over your husband.
Per Diem doesn't require receipts; expenses do. If they told him it was per diem they can pound sand.
This. I don’t travel for my job but I get per diems one weekend a year for our union’s annual meeting. The whole point of per diem is small amount of cash at a set rate either ahead of time or reimbursed after the trip which requires no documentation. No accounting department wants to wade through your receipts for sandwiches, fast food, parking, ride share, or public transit, etc. Especially for 2 dang months.
Yep. When I last went to a conference I think it was $10/$15/$25 for breakfast/lunch/dinner didn’t require receipts. I’d eat on the cheap a couple days & then eat at a nice restaurant one night.
Call your congressman and let him know the semiconductor manufacturer is trying to force a resignation from its only remaining employee. Those companies have been VERY heavily subsidized and I guarantee you heads will roll if they fucking things up, especially in the states depending on them for jobs.
You only have to pay back relocation if you resign or are fired usually, in the hiring paperwork there will be full details but do not quit!! And find all your proof because firing for cause is also another possibility for pay back..... but you need to fine the contract first!
How much was the international trip costs versus the "it doesn't look good costs"? I am with the other guy that is saying they are clearing costs.
I would feel bad if someone had to confirm the existence of a gas station/convenient store/road side food thing I expensed as lunch.
Red flags all over this. Your husband is still in Taiwan! after all the numerous problems and he's now the only employee of this company! I would seriously check if the company still exists and even if it does if they are trying to shaft your husband in order to recoup £20k they are either unscrupulous bastards or the $20k is going towards saving or getting as much money out of a company that is in serious trouble. I'd also check he has a guaranteed flight home.
Per diem does not require justification with receipts, only reimbursement does, and there are guidelines. So he should not have been submitting any receipts for per diem, just a count of days x$100.
Download a copy of the handbook, anything he signed (offer letters etc) and consult with a lawyer but do not blindly resign. Unless there's a specific reason to not be fired (licensing issues typically) force termination.
Side note, when terminated in AZ employers are required to pay final salary within a specific amount of time or the employee is entitled to 3x the final pay (used to be 3 business days I think it's 7 now but it's on the local labor website).
I have worked and travelled for multiple companies. When travel expenses paid per diem then you not only do not require receipts, you don’t even need to spend any money to receive your per diem. So the idea that he has to be careful what he spends on is bullshit.
The only time I have had to watch what I spent on is when I travelled and wasn’t paid per diem.
Total bullshit do not quit. Make them fire you.
His per diem was "use it or lose it". They only paid out for what you spent, asked for you to submit the expense report, but did not require receipts. The one time I travelled for work, I was given a per diem with very strict rules about what it could be spent on, even down to what hours on your travel days were eligible to be counted toward your per diem, had to submit receipts, and even with the detailed reports and receipts they required I still had to deal with expense disputes.
Yea, I worked a job that paid per diem, was for a university and was $46 a day plus lodging. We bought a pack of hot dogs (we chose to camp out of preference so cooked them over a fire) and some buns. Cost is $5 for a weekend, still got the $92 in our checks
Yep. Same here. We get a flat per diem and you submit for reimbursement after your trip. You just claim the per diem for as many days as you were gone. No receipts needed. Many employees won’t spend as much as the per diem but request it anyway. No issues. Just get your flat rate and go on with your work. This whole story is so strange. You get a per diem, no receipts required, but also provide an expense report. Why?
This is mostly correct, except that some companies use the term "per diem" differently that what you're used to. Many organizations limit your per diem to what's spent (so if you spend less than the available daily total it's forfeited money) and also limit it to food/lodging/travel expenses. I once worked for a company that would not allow me to tip over 10% on my company card. I maxed the tip at every meal and carried cash to supplement the total gratuity.
Seems severe for a $100 per diem. If the charges were iffy, a company would just not reimburse the employee. If a company charge card was used, ask the employee to pay for the inappropriate charges. I would consult a labor expert in your state.
Hmm. Something is off. He’s either the fall guy for something or he did some ish he aint telling you…no company with lenient policy that sends people to travel overseas doesn’t suddenly do this without either reason or there being a lot more to it!
The training was in Taiwan. He was alone without his wife and kids in Taiwan training for two months and now says hes being fired for buying his wife and kids presents.....🤔
I know this isn't as cool or satisfying answer as others...
An employment lawyer often does initial free consultation. Even if it's not free and it cost you 300 bucks, it's still potentially could save you 20K in relocation and also may give you the priceless benefit of sticking it to your company...
OP, they want you to believe they’re asking him to resign out of the goodness of their heart, and they don’t want to fire him because that would mean he loses money. What a load. Seriously, why would you believe that?
Dollars to donuts they’re trying to trick him into resigning so they can a) recoup his relocation amount, and b) not have to pay any unemployment.
Don’t resign. Get a lawyer instead.
Tbh, your husband is a naive fool to fall for that one. Always keep receipts and don’t take the piss. Managers are like stroppy children. They don’t know what they want.
Something is off here. They invest in him and send him on an international trip, and then want him gone over a few hundred dollars of expenses. The story doesn’t add up. Try to find out exactly what is going on. I suspect you don’t have the full story.
Sounds like you may want to have an honest conversation with your SO to make sure there isn’t something else. Sounds too clean for him to just resign and walk away. It’s he’s in the right there wouldn’t even be a problem with refusing to resign. Either way I’d probably start looking around
Per Diem is added to a paycheck or a company makes a separate direct deposit in to his bank account.
But there is no way in hell, a company can see how a per diem was spent. At the same time, you do not have to provide receipts how you spent your Per Diem.
Don’t resign. Get fired if anything. Ain’t no shame in it and make them pay unemployment. Also, note to future self. Always take a photo at min of your receipts when traveling for work. This will inevitably happen again
Per diem means you pay your own meals and the company gives you a flat amount of $ based on how many days you were traveling
It sounds like the husband instead used to corporate card to make purchases that would have been subject to the company policy on meals and incidentals, but some of the charges were shady.
I wonder if OP is really getting the full story from her husband
I also live in Arizona. Being asked to resign is a trick employers use to get out of paying unemployment. They will say that it looks better on a resume and will even offer to be a reference for future job. **Do not resign, let them fire you instead**.
Be sure to reference anything written that deals with what it or isn't covered by per diem. Verbal promises are useless unless there were other witnesses to back up what HR told your husband.
Also, I'd try crossposting to r/career advice if you haven't already. My guess is that the supervisor is getting flak form someone above him and is trying to put the blame on your husband.
What motivation would a company have to spend $20k in relocation and however much in training expenses for months in a foreign country just to fire the person over basically nothing? Something is missing here OP and I think it might have something to do with your husband. It doesn’t make any sense otherwise…
There is an obvious one: company is doing well in mid 2022. Market is good. A c-suite says "we need to hire x to do y and expand our business". They find said OP's husband, and he has the qualifications. Hes a perfect fit, but he lives in NYC or w/e. They relocate him to AZ and he begins work.
Things sour. Business does very poorly in Q4 2022. Prognosis is that 2023 will be even worse. C-suite gets a mandate from the board: all new employees need to be let go. Someone sees OP's husband has a relo package and contract of repayment. Sweet deal: fire one guy, but get back $20k or w/e. They go after him (they need to fire to get repayment) so they build up a scheme to do so with some nonsense about fraudulent purchases.
Um INAA, but if the term is perdiem, it should be paid in advance, in cash, and no receipts are required.
Sometimes it’ll be a check, and can lag behind the travel dates, but by no means is there an expectation of receipts.
There’s a difference between per diem and reporting expenses. In short, per diem is yours to do with as you see fit. You normally do not fill out an “expense report” for per diem. Per diem can be paid up front or can be paid weekly on your check per day you were “out of town.” Company reimbursed expenses will usually have guidelines and require the filing of an expense report at either weekly or monthly intervals. The guidelines for company reimbursed expenses should’ve been covered in training and a training and/or acceptance of company policy document should’ve been signed. Do not resign. “Sounds like” they screwed up. Usually a company would just refuse to reimburse the expenses they didn’t accept. I’ve been working with both per diem and reimbursable expenses for decades.
Its nice to see that you trust and support your husband, but have you considered that he isnt telling you the whole story? Ive seen some pretty shady stuff in my life involving expenses, but never saw anyone fired or forced out over a matter of $100. This doesnt pass the sniff test.
In any event, do not resign. Let them fire him. normally, relocation expenses only have to be paid back if you resign or quit within a certain frame, i.e.: 18 months i have seen. But it depends on what kind of agreements you sign. Some companies are making new hires sign a whole assortment of waivers, including non-disparagement. Best to see whats in the new hire docs before rolling the dice.
How much is the relocation package? To take money from an employee they either need to agree or they need to sue you and win.
Is this package worth the expense of a lawsuit to clawback the cost of the package?
They want him to quit so they don’t have to pay more in unemployment tax. If they fire him your husband can collect unemployment. If he quits, he can’t. As for the relocation money he needs to check the contract he signed. We relocated twice when I was married to my first husband. One contract said two years and the other said one year. If he quits he’s probably on the hook to repay the money.
LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER
LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER
Then get counseling for why you didn't immediately get a lawyer.
Others have already said it but it warrants repeating, do not resign. Sounds like they are up to something, as no sane business would ask for someone to resign because of oddities on how he spent per diem. For one, per diem is a simple way to pay for travel expenses that doesn’t require much of an approval process at all and doesn’t really require receipts. I can tell you from personal experience I have dealt with the federal government and per diem a lot so whatever they are up to, doesn’t track.
If there’s anything I learned from this sub, it’s to never voluntarily terminate yourself. Let them fire you so you’ll be able to get unemployment benefits. Never do any favors for companies.
Don’t resign. They have to fire him. You can’t get unemployment if you resign. They want relocation payment back also. DO NOT RESIGN. Sounds like they are broke AF and need money somewhere.
I would tell them that I need to speak to my lawyer before I do anything. And then definitely speak to a lawyer.
Good luck.
This sucks especially if he relocated for the job.
Isn't a per diem supposed to cover your own personal discretionary expenses for traveling as opposed to staying home? I work in film, always receive a per diem when working on the road, and have never once been told how I'm allowed to spend it or asked for receipts. I could pack my own dinners and just put it in my pocket if I wanted to.
This whole situation is fishy. He definitely shouldn't resign. Read his contract and the employee manual very carefully, check local labour laws, and let them do whatever it is they're planning. Your husband did nothing wrong. You might want to talk to a lawyer before making any decisions.
DO NOT RESIGN. Do nothing. If they drop it great. Worst case they fire him and he gets unemployment. Edit: also, admit to nothing. They’ll use it against him. And keep a paper trail.
They told him if he doesn't resign voluntarily they will fire him and then he will have to repay the relo package they gave him to move across the country to take the position
I'm an agency recruiter, and I can tell you that in my experience anyone who resigns before the term set out in the relocation agreement *WILL* pay back the relo package. Firings typically not. Do not let him resign. There's something very suspect happening, and this company is 100% lying about that relo money.
Just read that it's 20k in relo? My spider senses say the company is hoping to get that back. If he quits, he will 100% be on the hook for it. Also, usually when someone misspends a per diem, the first course of action is to ask for repayment. There's something really fishy here.
Yeah there was no request to repay, no request for the receipts or credit card statements, nothing.
Track down all the documentation that's available, and send it all to personal emails/devices. He's likely not going to be working there in the future, but right now you/he needs to minimize the damage that's coming. Texts to the supervisor confirming that the spending was done under their authorization, all the documents relating to the trip, the original employment agreement, the relo agreement, everything. The truth, or something like it, will come out in the end. I'm sorry this is happening.
Thank you
If he uses Google maps you can often look at your history and see what stores/locations you have been to. If he legit needs to prove anything, dm me if he needs help
Take this dude up on his offer
Username checks
True. I often use Google maps location history to know at what time I was at what customer, so I can fill my paperwork. If you've got location history enabled, you can know, with a reasonable degree of confidence, where you've been and at what time.
Print them out so they don't dissappear
Email the supervisor and immediately forward to your personal email
This! But BCc personal email. So there is no chance for them to say the email was edited when you forwarded it.
As I mentioned in a post above, be careful about DLP software and what you email to yourself.
Be careful what you send to your personal accounts. This used to be great advice, but with DLP software more common, you can get in trouble for emailing business things to yourself. While it's not as convenient, screenshot things on your monitor with your phone.
This should be higher up. Don't use their equipment. Take pictures with your own device and tell no one but your lawyer.
Sending your own employment documentation to yourself cannot be held against you. It isn't private or confidential information if it is related to you own employment. This is fear mongering that HR loves to hand out.
I used to audit these types of expenditures in the past. You’d be surprised how many of the receipts you’ll be able to get copies of if you reach out to the vendors. If he paid by card, his statement + google maps should be able to help him track down phone numbers. Be sure to have the date of purchase (_not to be confused with the date it posts to your statement._ You’re going to want the date you actually swiped), the last 4 of your card, and if you know the exact amount that is sometimes helpful. If paying with cash that’ll be a bit different but you get the gist of it. A little elbow grease and you may be able to catch them in their own lie bc they are definitely up to something. This is *not* how any of this works. I promise. Good luck!
$100 a day per diem for international hardly seems worth the cost to audit to me. You say you're an auditor, what's your experience say to that? I've never been told 'no receipts needed' for my travel, but it seems like a waste of resources just because the dollar amount is reasonable. Of course my company just spent $10k to recoup $900 in overpayment, so I guess nothing should be surprising.
With food and travel at the location it probably still costs the employee too .
Wouldn’t even look at during an audit - 6 years in public accounting
That's "fuck you" money. I may waste ten times as much money, but you are not keeping my $900, you sleazy [insert expletives here]!
Depends on the company. I've had expense reports that were 5 bucks get audited.
I’m not sure if $100 is a lot or a little but in my field there is nothing that isn’t audited and every account is reconciled down to the penny. Any cross-border conversions /currency exchanges are even accounted for as gains/losses. Especially since, $100 may seem like nothing compared to the millions that are budgeted and spent but $100 across who knows how many people being paid per diem will absolutely add up. As many people are pointing out here, the manager is likely in on it. Nothing about this is passing the smell test. Not clearly explaining to him that he needed to keep/submit receipts and then trying to get him to can himself over it…?? Also, if he didn’t sign some sort of agreement when receiving the per diem money outlining the what was required of him in regards to the money (ie making sure to have itemized receipts for all purchases. That all receipts much clearly show the date of purchase and total amount, etc) AND outlining what types of purchases are allowed (ie no alcohol or tobacco allowed. 20$/€ maximum /meal allowed, etc) -then I can’t see how he could possibly be heels responsible for not complying the on the very first time. *Much less* it being a fireable offense for breaking a rule that -as far as he knew- didn’t exist. The whole thing is fishy.
For one person, probably not Times thousands of employees, it's worth having an entire department that does nothing but review expense reports.
Feels SUS; don’t resign! Don’t sign anything. Lawyer up. Normally before termination or in this case being asked to resign they would ask for him to show documentation that he spend it on what he claimed. They are just trying to sweep dirt under the rug it feels like. If he resigns he will be on the hook for a lot more than he should be.
Seems like his boss set him up.
I am with you two, I think the boss used his corporate card at inappropriate places and is blaming this guy
Exactly my thought. Maybe even brought him along just to scapegoat sketchy shit.
Exactly what it sounds like. The boss used him as cover for his own misdeeds.
Agreed. Boss got caught with his pants around his ankles, throws his employee under the bus.
Sounds like the super he went with is in in the deal.
GET A LAWYER. NOW. Yesterday! Period.
You guys keep saying “get a lawyer now!” as if they work for free.
Do a free consult at least.
This. Many lawyers have a free initial consultation. It will cost you nothing and can only help.
Yeah that sounds shady AF.
He works for a shady ass company. No one important enough for billable international trips with per diems is ever questioned about this shit, unless there’s corporate fuckery afoot.
whole thing seems really fishy. $100 per day as a per diem isn't really even that much for them to be making such a fuss over it. My suspicion is that they are trying to claw back the relocation money by forcing your husband to resign.
Yeah, this made my hackles stand up. I once accidentally used my company card to buy gas since it’s the same color as my regular credit card. Boss called me and asked what was up, was so worried about getting fired. He laughed and said how people do it all the time and just pay it, no one cares. They just try to maintain a zero balance. Being told to resign rather than pay is highly suspect.
Wow my work freaked out hard when I accidentally used a company card to pay for parking one time. I had to repay (no big deal $5) and then they took my work credit card away.
It generally costs more money to try and recoup the loss from an error like that than it does for the company to eat it and say “try and be more careful next time.” This is definitely a little over the top.
I think at that job they were unhappy about me exercising my rights under the ADA, but they couldn’t legally complain about that so they found any other tiny thing I did wrong to put the screws to me.
Isn't the point of a per diem that it's literally just for you to spend? At my husband's work it's fairly common for people to just keep the per diem and eat as cheaply as possible in order to get extra pocket money and that is completely acknowledged as ok to do. Otherwise they would get a company credit card and in that case they would have to keep receipts and justify each expenditure. Also I'm pretty sure that standard practice with relocation is that if you resign you have to pay it, if they fire you they are on the hook for it.
First course is to ask for receipts…
Then why do they want him to resign. They can’t legally ask for that money back if they’re the ones firing him right?? I mean I’m sure they could add it to the list of things they make up.
I think they want him to resign so they can recoup the 20k in relocation they gave him.
This.
But then why send him on an expensive business trip?
Something may have happened after the trip where they wanted to reduce headcount or something like that.
Yup...it probably has nothing to do with his performance or per diem on the trip. They are looking to scrape up cash however they can. He should be sending copies of emails to a personal email and recording every meeting.
Maybe his boss had some sketchy spending and is using him as a scapegoat...
I’ve never had to explain how I spent per diem. It’s my money to spend or save however I want.
This is solely industry/employer based. Possibly state law as well idk about the latter tho. My company has a set daily per diem and receipts are required, no alcohol purchases allowed to be reimbursed
Exactly. I’m not a recruiter, but what they are supposedly telling him sounds ridiculous. Is there a contract that outlines what happens in the event of firing versus resignation?
100% there should have been a contract related to the relo. If there wasn't, I would assume that the courts would treat that money as a bonus, making it non-recoverable. (Obligatory "I'm not a lawyer")
I agree that this sounds backwards. Payback clauses are designed to prevent workers from getting out of their obligations, whether it’s relocation, tuition reimbursement, etc. The company doesn’t want you to get them to move you, and then have you change jobs. But if the company decides that they are going to let you go, then they will just let the money go too. Unless they have a mountain of evidence of really serious malfeasance, they’re not likely to even bother with court.
If you do take any action, make sure their promises are in writing from someone who looks like they have authority to make them.
Please get an attorney. It gives you power even if they never do anything.
They’re lying. Do Not Resign. If they fire him, he owes them nothing. Personally, it sounds like his boss set him up.
Get an employment attorney ASAP. The following should be considered fan fiction and not serious advice: Usually getting the relocation money back from a termination requires an adversarial finding for the termination (read: your husband was incompetent, stole, committed fraud). If, however, he resigns, then they can demand that money back. It’s possible that you could win a fraud case against them over their promises they’re likely going to reneg on, but by agreeing to the deal in the first place you’ve already demonstrated you’re suckers who won’t consult an attorney, so why not get all that money for the asking. Go watch Congressional testimony when someone ~~is suspected of doing~~did wrong, and all they do is repeat “I do not recall,” over and over again. Hub’s answer to all spending requests is that he was on a trip under the guidance of [supervisor name goes here]. I mean, I would consult an employment attorney, but if someone held a gun to my head and asked me to guess the shape of what would say, it would be, “Do not communicate with them further, I will inform them to route all communications through me,” but then secondarily, something like that.
To add to this, most employment lawyers work on contingency. You should be able to find someone to talk to you without up front cost.
AZ barred Attorney. Call an employment attorney by way of Avvo.
TX attorney here seconding Avvo.
Are they willing to put in writing that they're waiving the relocation fee in exchange for his resignation? Because, if not, I wouldn't trust that shit for a moment. The opposite is much more likely -- they're asking for his resignation so they can claw back the relo money.
Is there any documentation he got at hiring that said he’d have to do that?
Tbh I don't know. I didn't read the papers he signed. I'll have to see if he has copies.
Just guessing but those paybacks usually require you quitting (hence their request for him resigning) or firing for cause (which they can’t do since he did nothing wrong).
They can always fire you. Employers have a lot more legal protection than employees. However, they cannot fire you and force you to repay relo package. Generally, those clauses are built in a way where the repayment is only from voluntary resigning/leaving/etc. Firing is involuntary, and therefore they cannot force someone to pay for a contract that was broken involuntarily.
My relocation said if I quit I'm on the hook. If I am terminated I do not have to pay it back. Got let go from a job 7 months in. Not performance based but just reducing head count. I didn't pay anything back... In fact I got 3 month package from them. I ended up making more money on relocation and termination then I did working at the place.
The paper is almost always if you leave within x amount of time you are responsible for paying back relocation. Thus sounds like they are lying and trying to get a sure way of recouping that relocation package
Honestly someone is more likely to have to repay relocation if they resign. I’d get any communication they make in writing.
They cant make you repay it if they fire you. If you resign they can... They are trying to trick him.
If they could do that, they woulda done it already. Why would they ASK him to resign if they could just fire him and have him repay.
Right?! What's the logic supposed to be here? "We're pissed because we think you ripped us off and we want you gone, but we're asking you to resign, which will totally let you keep 20k, because we're just so gosh darn nice." Bullshit.
DO NOT QUIT/RESIGN. You will need to repay relocation stipend hands down. Anything is better than a guaranteed L.
He should not cooperate with any of this. You may want to consider an employment attorney very soon. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense that if he can resign without paying back the relocation package but does if he is fired. Either way, resigning is not in his interest. He will not get unemployment and if they aren't willing to fire him why are they asking for a resignation?
Yah they don’t send you on an international training then care about how you spent your per diem. I’d say no thanks, I think I’ll keep working here. Then let them fire me.
I wonder if somewhere between reality and this post terms were mixed up. Usually per diem is paid to you and it's up to you to use it. So if you get $100 a day per diem, then it's up to you to eat. It's usually not in your best interest to use it all. Yet the post mentions "expenses".
Exactly. Let them fire him. Then he can claim unemployment, keep his relo package and sue them for wrongful termination.
i feel like this supervisor purposely told him to spend on things he maybe they aren’t supposed to to get him tripped up
That was our suspicion as well. It was especially strange that it has been a few weeks without any communication from his super at all so we had a feeling something was up. We just didn't think it would be this.
Please, please, please don’t let him resign. It’s never a good idea. He will be 100% on the hook for repayment otherwise, with little to no chance to fight it. Let them fire him please.
So this. Let them fire him, then he gets unemployment. If he resigns, he gets nada.
This. DO NOT QUIT.
Most likely thing that happened here is his supervisor was pissed about something HIS boss did and thought that they could get away with saying "fuck you" to the company by overspending what the supervisor was told was allowed, and shit roles down Jill.
>shit roles down Jill I'm %100 making this my new email signature. *Kindest regards,* *Shit roles down Jill*
Maybe try r/legaladvice. He could try asking why they want him to resign over something approved and encouraged by his supervisor. That he thought it was allowed since his supervisor told him to use the per diem there. If you're in a one party consent state and can do so legally, secretly record all these conversations and their reactions. I'm not sure if you can on private property, bit I think you can? I'd ask r/legaladvice this too. Or you can just email it. The reason they want him to resign is so that they can avoid unemployment and lawsuits probably. Up to you how much resistance you give them. Personally, I don't actually understand what benefit resigning gives anyone.
AZ is a one party consent state, so it's a good idea
So is the supervisor who only did training for 4 hours a week still there?
It wasn't even that. He'd have a week where he'd go in for several hours a day a few days in a row and then a week to ten days just sitting in his shitty 1-star hotel. And yes, he's still there. It wasn't entirely the supers fault as the company they are contracted to do work for was responsible for providing training on their process, etc. That being said, had everything been coordinated better upfront, the training could have been completed in a week rather than him being gone for 2 months
Wait, the company they are contracted to work for failed training, and stretched out a week session for 8 weeks? And you stated the other employee left and your hubby is the only one still working, aside the supervisor? This sounds like they lost their contract and are trying to reduce the bleed by getting 20k back. At maximum, on a prorated amount, after 7 months, you would be looking at about 8000. That would not drag this to litigation for that amount. Let them fire. When they keep the last paycheck, take the info to the labor board. If he is already locked out of his work computer, email, and office… he is fired. They are trying to save face. Just my two cents
Could be as simple as "economic downturn shouldn't have hired him crap we're on the hook for this maybe we can get him to resign?"
That’s what I thought. Especially considering the calendar year just ended.
Yeah, unfortunately a lot of companies may be having second thoughts about the money they spent hiring people last year and how much salary they are paying.
A 100 bucks? Did he buy a star bucks or a dildo or something. If it’s a perdium it’s to spend without receipts. They’re trying to set him up.
** Per Diem. Perdium sounds like an obscure body part to me lol
I need a personal day, my perdium is acting up.
Per diem doesn’t mean no receipts. Legally, the company can have processes in place to require receipts. However, this just sounds all fishy. $100/day and they are letting him go? There is definitely more to this story than what’s being presented here.
Hanlons razor: don’t attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. Wonder if this applies more to the supervisor?
Don’t sign anything they’ve drawn up. Especially, a resignation letter. There could be noncompete garbage in it. You want to explore options with an attorney. For about $35, you can call your local bar association to get someone to talk to you to see if you need an attorney, and if so, what it’s going to cost. I know someone who traveled overseas on per diem, had no idea they were supposed to use public transit and racked up a decent bill. If there’s an employee handbook defining what is required for spending proof, that would be helpful. Typically, it’s only meals and transportation and beyond that would need to be repaid.
There isn't a handbook and they didn't require any receipts. Only asked for him to submit an expense report, the details, format, and content of which changed several times during his time abroad.
Contact a lawyer. For whatever reason, they’re trying to recoup the relo costs. This does not sound like it’s on the up and up.
Let this be a life lesson from an auditor: ALWAYS. KEEP. THE. FUCKING. RECEIPTS.
I thought the whole point of a per diem was to give a set amount so no receipts or expense claims were required. Otherwise isn’t it just a daily limit??? At least that’s the meaning in my country. Maybe consult a lawyer on that point
That's always been my experience too. Per diem = it's your money, keep it, spend it on hookers & blow, whatever. Expenses = keep receipts, report everything and some/all gets reimbursed.
Agreeing with the person who suggested a quick consult with an attorney. Receipts are required by every company ever because the IRS accepts an assortment of reports like expense reports and credit card statements but those must be backed up by supporting documents. Even if he didn’t have to submit the receipts, it seems odd that they wouldn’t insist that he keep them and be able to produce them if needed, which is still odd. Guidelines for per diem expenses are very well defined. I just returned from a trip and have six different per diem amounts dependent on the city, five being international. None of the cities had less than $100 /day, most were over ~$130. Seems like giving him carte blanche to do whatever and the resulting fallout seems like a set up. That there isn’t an employee handbook and with the reporting process changing, they may be in violation of a few of your labor laws in ways you might not be aware of as well. I’m assuming the charges are on his company card. They can’t verify the existence of some of the stores? They are suggested fraud!? I would document everything you can and contact an attorney for advice. Don’t sign anything
If they thought they had nothing to worry about, they would have just fired him. This isn’t the joint chiefs for fucks sake. The fact that they are trying to force a resignation, tells you what you need to know… they are worried about liability. And the relocation payback is a bluff. I’ve been relocated many times and I promise you it costs far less than it would to sue you for it. Besides giving up your right to sue, by resigning, you also are giving up unemployment benefits. If you apply for that and they contest it (by saying he was fired for cause) then you can appeal that decision
I had a female coworker who asked me to join her and a much more senior and respected individual in our company for an afterwork get-together out of the blue during our break, I couldn't make it to the get-together and told her to just go and have fun. Well something happened during that get-together and I was dragged into HR a few days later. I told them what I know, but they were concerned about her. On reflection, she did feel apprehensive about the get-together. He was asked to resign, and instead of resigning, he went on vacation. She was also asked to resign and she did. They cleaned out his office while he was on vacation and removed access to his badge. Since our industry was small then, he was blacklisted and even after I had joined a competitor, his story is known there. He should had resigned. I found out that they went to a hotspot where other employees like to frequent, and he was hitting on her hard and made her felt very scared. She told her co-workers about it the next day, and they told her to go to HR.
[удалено]
I couldn't speculate but her manager helped her found a new job at his previous place of employment. We ran into each other a few other times, and she had moved on.
Just wanted to chime in about your resignation comment, when the HR investigation was completed on my former boss and they found out about all the harassment and shady stuff he’d been doing they asked him to resign rather than fire him. He gave a few months notice and it was awkward as heck since the HR director told him what I had reported so that was great. Anyway just wanted to mention that I wouldn’t chalk up too much about the whole not firing thing
Slow down and take breath. As what many users have said, this action is wildly suspicious. Asking to resign and not having to pay back a relocation is very unusual if termination results in the payback. That's a very odd conflict. Is there a job contract? Are there terms in that about the relocation? Was there a specific document signed for the relocation package that spells out what happens if there is a termination or resignation? This very, very odd what you have described. Most of us have the gut reaction there is about to be some massive fraud. I have a feeling your husband will resign and the company will still demand the relocation money with the threat of a lawsuit. But since he resigned he no longer has any standing for unemployment or to fight the demand, as I suspect there is something buried in the relocation agreement that a resignation results in a pay back (pretty common). I really, really think you need to at least consult with an Arizona licensed attorney that specializes in contracts and employment law. You can search for one here: https://www.azbar.org/for-lawyers/practice-tools-management/member-directory/ Do not sign anything. Start communicating in writing (email is fine). Make them put their demands in writing. The fact that 6 weeks later they are playing this game is another red flag. If this was such a big deal, why wasn't it addressed immediately? What happened to the supervisor that gave him instructions on what he could do?
That’s the whole point of perdiem. You no longer have to submit receipts for food etc. if you give me $100 per diem how I spend it is my own choice. Something is really, really fishy here.
100%. If you wanted to spend all your per diem on Dan Flash Shirts and not spend any money on food, that is your choice to do so.
I can’t believe I had to scroll this far to get an ITYSL quote about per diem and Dan Flash.
the patterns are so complicated you might explode
But just $100? Not going to be very complicated. They got this one shirt that costs $1000 'cause the pattern's so wild
Moreover, to argue over $100/day per diem internationally is rather petty. Airport prices are insane. You might have to do laundry, take taxis, eat at resturants, buy all water consumed. While certain countries are perceived as "cheap" you're often charged the American business traveler inflated prices. If inappropriate, the first step would be to not reimburse for anything they deem non-reimburseable: bribes and sex trade (yeah, that seems extreme but this is an example of a legit hard "no" regardless of what was promised). To fire someone for spending too much is usually based on payouts that later are determined to be habitually fruadelent and/or mischaracterized.
This, I have never been in a company that required receipts for per diem. That is your money to do with as you please. I knew people who would bag their lunch to keep more of the per diem.
“Let me consult my lawyer and I’ll get back to you” is what he should say. Agree, don’t resign. Also, read the paperwork he signed! A lawyer might truly be the best option.
>“Let me consult my lawyer and I’ll get back to you” is what he should say. exactly! Especially when they start using the fraud word. OP's significant other could wind up in some legal mess... civil action... maybe even charges. A lawyer would be the best bet.
throw the supervisor under the bus
Are they asking him to resign so they can get out of paying severance? 🤔 If so they can go fuck themselves and they can fire him instead.
They said if he doesn't submit the letter and voluntarily resign, he will be fired and have to repay the relo package they gave him to move across the country 7 months ago for the position. I'll also throw in there he works in semiconductor manufacturing. He has over a decade of experience. They told him he'd be hired on at a certain pay rate and then his official offer was a couple dollars an hour less than what was initially promised. Then they hired on a guy with an engineering degree but 0 experience, newly graduated from college, at over 100k salary. He knew nothing and lasted about 4 weeks before he quit. That left my husband as their only employee who is now being asked to resign.
If he’s the only employee now, it sounds like the company is closing. They are looking to recoup any money they can (your relocation money!).
Yep. Shaking the cushions of immorality for any loose change before probably stiffing a bunch of vendors.
TBH this was what I was imagining, too. Like, they're not offering him any GOOD choice, just a bad one and a worse one. That makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end.
Honestly if it's semiconductors and they deal with China in any way it becomes a massive problem after the Biden order on preventing Americans or American companies doing semiconductor work for Chinese firms
Shit, 20 years ago when I got per diem it was handed to me in cash. Later, when I did accounting, I learned there was a threshold. Anything below a certain amount per day, based on location, and didn't require receipts. It was also split by room and board (food). It's a pretty low threshold. Our room was paid for so we got $25 a day for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Sounds like the financial comptroller fucked up and/or they're trying to screw over your husband. Per Diem doesn't require receipts; expenses do. If they told him it was per diem they can pound sand.
That’s what I was thinking. Isn’t a per diem essentially a “bonus” that’s intended to be used for food and incidentals?
This. I don’t travel for my job but I get per diems one weekend a year for our union’s annual meeting. The whole point of per diem is small amount of cash at a set rate either ahead of time or reimbursed after the trip which requires no documentation. No accounting department wants to wade through your receipts for sandwiches, fast food, parking, ride share, or public transit, etc. Especially for 2 dang months.
Yep. When I last went to a conference I think it was $10/$15/$25 for breakfast/lunch/dinner didn’t require receipts. I’d eat on the cheap a couple days & then eat at a nice restaurant one night.
Ugh, I think this is something he needs to talk to an employment lawyer about, tbh. Sounds sketchy.
Call your congressman and let him know the semiconductor manufacturer is trying to force a resignation from its only remaining employee. Those companies have been VERY heavily subsidized and I guarantee you heads will roll if they fucking things up, especially in the states depending on them for jobs.
Not a lawyer. I would expect resigning would require repaying relo package. And firing would not. Talk to a lawyer.
You only have to pay back relocation if you resign or are fired usually, in the hiring paperwork there will be full details but do not quit!! And find all your proof because firing for cause is also another possibility for pay back..... but you need to fine the contract first!
Def sketchy talk to an employment lawyer.
How much was the international trip costs versus the "it doesn't look good costs"? I am with the other guy that is saying they are clearing costs. I would feel bad if someone had to confirm the existence of a gas station/convenient store/road side food thing I expensed as lunch.
Don’t resign sounds like they wanna get away with his money and fuck you over
If the worst comes to the worst, please message me. We have already taken on 5 engineers for TSMC and will probably need more.
Red flags all over this. Your husband is still in Taiwan! after all the numerous problems and he's now the only employee of this company! I would seriously check if the company still exists and even if it does if they are trying to shaft your husband in order to recoup £20k they are either unscrupulous bastards or the $20k is going towards saving or getting as much money out of a company that is in serious trouble. I'd also check he has a guaranteed flight home.
Oh no no he's been home for 6 weeks. I'd be in a blind panic if this were going on and he were still there!
Thank God for that. I must have misunderstood. Still the company seems to be having major problems.
NEVER QUIT. MAKE THEM FIRE YOU. SPREAD THE WORD.
Per diem does not require justification with receipts, only reimbursement does, and there are guidelines. So he should not have been submitting any receipts for per diem, just a count of days x$100. Download a copy of the handbook, anything he signed (offer letters etc) and consult with a lawyer but do not blindly resign. Unless there's a specific reason to not be fired (licensing issues typically) force termination. Side note, when terminated in AZ employers are required to pay final salary within a specific amount of time or the employee is entitled to 3x the final pay (used to be 3 business days I think it's 7 now but it's on the local labor website).
I have worked and travelled for multiple companies. When travel expenses paid per diem then you not only do not require receipts, you don’t even need to spend any money to receive your per diem. So the idea that he has to be careful what he spends on is bullshit. The only time I have had to watch what I spent on is when I travelled and wasn’t paid per diem. Total bullshit do not quit. Make them fire you.
His per diem was "use it or lose it". They only paid out for what you spent, asked for you to submit the expense report, but did not require receipts. The one time I travelled for work, I was given a per diem with very strict rules about what it could be spent on, even down to what hours on your travel days were eligible to be counted toward your per diem, had to submit receipts, and even with the detailed reports and receipts they required I still had to deal with expense disputes.
That's not per diem then, that's just an expense account. Per diem is literally a payment to you with no strings attached.
Yea, I worked a job that paid per diem, was for a university and was $46 a day plus lodging. We bought a pack of hot dogs (we chose to camp out of preference so cooked them over a fire) and some buns. Cost is $5 for a weekend, still got the $92 in our checks
Yep. Same here. We get a flat per diem and you submit for reimbursement after your trip. You just claim the per diem for as many days as you were gone. No receipts needed. Many employees won’t spend as much as the per diem but request it anyway. No issues. Just get your flat rate and go on with your work. This whole story is so strange. You get a per diem, no receipts required, but also provide an expense report. Why?
This is mostly correct, except that some companies use the term "per diem" differently that what you're used to. Many organizations limit your per diem to what's spent (so if you spend less than the available daily total it's forfeited money) and also limit it to food/lodging/travel expenses. I once worked for a company that would not allow me to tip over 10% on my company card. I maxed the tip at every meal and carried cash to supplement the total gratuity.
I wouldn't resign, let them fire, so he can get unemployment
Seems severe for a $100 per diem. If the charges were iffy, a company would just not reimburse the employee. If a company charge card was used, ask the employee to pay for the inappropriate charges. I would consult a labor expert in your state.
Hmm. Something is off. He’s either the fall guy for something or he did some ish he aint telling you…no company with lenient policy that sends people to travel overseas doesn’t suddenly do this without either reason or there being a lot more to it!
The training was in Taiwan. He was alone without his wife and kids in Taiwan training for two months and now says hes being fired for buying his wife and kids presents.....🤔
Supervisor blew 50k on hookers n blow, trying to pin the costs on you.
The supervisor or the husband. People get asked to resign over something scandalous, not over the cost of food.
Don't admit to anything. Deny everything. Don't sign shit. Don't resign.
I know this isn't as cool or satisfying answer as others... An employment lawyer often does initial free consultation. Even if it's not free and it cost you 300 bucks, it's still potentially could save you 20K in relocation and also may give you the priceless benefit of sticking it to your company...
OP, they want you to believe they’re asking him to resign out of the goodness of their heart, and they don’t want to fire him because that would mean he loses money. What a load. Seriously, why would you believe that? Dollars to donuts they’re trying to trick him into resigning so they can a) recoup his relocation amount, and b) not have to pay any unemployment. Don’t resign. Get a lawyer instead.
Never resign always get fired
Tbh, your husband is a naive fool to fall for that one. Always keep receipts and don’t take the piss. Managers are like stroppy children. They don’t know what they want.
So much More to the story
Something is off here. They invest in him and send him on an international trip, and then want him gone over a few hundred dollars of expenses. The story doesn’t add up. Try to find out exactly what is going on. I suspect you don’t have the full story.
Sounds like you may want to have an honest conversation with your SO to make sure there isn’t something else. Sounds too clean for him to just resign and walk away. It’s he’s in the right there wouldn’t even be a problem with refusing to resign. Either way I’d probably start looking around
Per Diem is added to a paycheck or a company makes a separate direct deposit in to his bank account. But there is no way in hell, a company can see how a per diem was spent. At the same time, you do not have to provide receipts how you spent your Per Diem.
Don’t resign. Get fired if anything. Ain’t no shame in it and make them pay unemployment. Also, note to future self. Always take a photo at min of your receipts when traveling for work. This will inevitably happen again
Per diem means you pay your own meals and the company gives you a flat amount of $ based on how many days you were traveling It sounds like the husband instead used to corporate card to make purchases that would have been subject to the company policy on meals and incidentals, but some of the charges were shady. I wonder if OP is really getting the full story from her husband
I also live in Arizona. Being asked to resign is a trick employers use to get out of paying unemployment. They will say that it looks better on a resume and will even offer to be a reference for future job. **Do not resign, let them fire you instead**. Be sure to reference anything written that deals with what it or isn't covered by per diem. Verbal promises are useless unless there were other witnesses to back up what HR told your husband. Also, I'd try crossposting to r/career advice if you haven't already. My guess is that the supervisor is getting flak form someone above him and is trying to put the blame on your husband.
Your husband isn’t being forthcoming with what happened.
What motivation would a company have to spend $20k in relocation and however much in training expenses for months in a foreign country just to fire the person over basically nothing? Something is missing here OP and I think it might have something to do with your husband. It doesn’t make any sense otherwise…
There is an obvious one: company is doing well in mid 2022. Market is good. A c-suite says "we need to hire x to do y and expand our business". They find said OP's husband, and he has the qualifications. Hes a perfect fit, but he lives in NYC or w/e. They relocate him to AZ and he begins work. Things sour. Business does very poorly in Q4 2022. Prognosis is that 2023 will be even worse. C-suite gets a mandate from the board: all new employees need to be let go. Someone sees OP's husband has a relo package and contract of repayment. Sweet deal: fire one guy, but get back $20k or w/e. They go after him (they need to fire to get repayment) so they build up a scheme to do so with some nonsense about fraudulent purchases.
Um INAA, but if the term is perdiem, it should be paid in advance, in cash, and no receipts are required. Sometimes it’ll be a check, and can lag behind the travel dates, but by no means is there an expectation of receipts.
There’s a difference between per diem and reporting expenses. In short, per diem is yours to do with as you see fit. You normally do not fill out an “expense report” for per diem. Per diem can be paid up front or can be paid weekly on your check per day you were “out of town.” Company reimbursed expenses will usually have guidelines and require the filing of an expense report at either weekly or monthly intervals. The guidelines for company reimbursed expenses should’ve been covered in training and a training and/or acceptance of company policy document should’ve been signed. Do not resign. “Sounds like” they screwed up. Usually a company would just refuse to reimburse the expenses they didn’t accept. I’ve been working with both per diem and reimbursable expenses for decades.
Its nice to see that you trust and support your husband, but have you considered that he isnt telling you the whole story? Ive seen some pretty shady stuff in my life involving expenses, but never saw anyone fired or forced out over a matter of $100. This doesnt pass the sniff test. In any event, do not resign. Let them fire him. normally, relocation expenses only have to be paid back if you resign or quit within a certain frame, i.e.: 18 months i have seen. But it depends on what kind of agreements you sign. Some companies are making new hires sign a whole assortment of waivers, including non-disparagement. Best to see whats in the new hire docs before rolling the dice.
How much is the relocation package? To take money from an employee they either need to agree or they need to sue you and win. Is this package worth the expense of a lawsuit to clawback the cost of the package?
Nah make em fire him and get unemployment
They want him to quit so they don’t have to pay more in unemployment tax. If they fire him your husband can collect unemployment. If he quits, he can’t. As for the relocation money he needs to check the contract he signed. We relocated twice when I was married to my first husband. One contract said two years and the other said one year. If he quits he’s probably on the hook to repay the money.
Something stinketh here. Sounds like he was set up.
Or the OP is not getting the full story from hubby
LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER Then get counseling for why you didn't immediately get a lawyer.
Others have already said it but it warrants repeating, do not resign. Sounds like they are up to something, as no sane business would ask for someone to resign because of oddities on how he spent per diem. For one, per diem is a simple way to pay for travel expenses that doesn’t require much of an approval process at all and doesn’t really require receipts. I can tell you from personal experience I have dealt with the federal government and per diem a lot so whatever they are up to, doesn’t track.
DO NOT RESIGN. If he does hell have to payback the relo money and he gets no unemployment!!!
Never EVER resign. Make them fire you. They are trying to get out of paying unemployment tax.
If there’s anything I learned from this sub, it’s to never voluntarily terminate yourself. Let them fire you so you’ll be able to get unemployment benefits. Never do any favors for companies.
Nah I'd let them sack me then go for unfair dismissal.
Your husband and his boss got up to some shenanigans and now the boss is trying to clean house/cover his ass.
Don’t resign. They have to fire him. You can’t get unemployment if you resign. They want relocation payment back also. DO NOT RESIGN. Sounds like they are broke AF and need money somewhere.
I thought the whole point of a pier diem is that you just can spend it on whatever? Like why would you even need to do an expense report
NEVER FUCKING RESIGN FROM A JOB.
I would tell them that I need to speak to my lawyer before I do anything. And then definitely speak to a lawyer. Good luck. This sucks especially if he relocated for the job.
Isn't a per diem supposed to cover your own personal discretionary expenses for traveling as opposed to staying home? I work in film, always receive a per diem when working on the road, and have never once been told how I'm allowed to spend it or asked for receipts. I could pack my own dinners and just put it in my pocket if I wanted to. This whole situation is fishy. He definitely shouldn't resign. Read his contract and the employee manual very carefully, check local labour laws, and let them do whatever it is they're planning. Your husband did nothing wrong. You might want to talk to a lawyer before making any decisions.
Feels SUS, maybe the supervisor spent money on some questionable activities and is trying to place the blame on your husband.