T O P
AutoModerator

#[SPOILERS FOR ALL PRINTED MATERIAL, INCLUDING SHORT STORIES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_all_print) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*


participating

This biggest failures of the Shadow result from the quality the Dark One values most (which Verin explains to Egwene in TGS): selfishness. The Forsaken to not really work together, and at times actively oppose each other's plans. That said, just because Demandred recruited Taim, doesn't mean he told Taim much about his plans. He probably was given instructions to grow the Black Tower and use it to recruit Dreadlords, as well as a general order to keep Rand alive. Taim likely didn't know the kidnapping was a Mesaana plot and acted to keep Rand safe/alive because he was told to.


fgHFGRt

That sounds like a good reason. I just wish that small point was made clear. Have the forsaken get angry at each other perhaps.


fgHFGRt

Actually, if Demandred knew, why would he be stupid enough to not take back the order to keep Rand alive?


participating

In addition to /u/Voltairinede's answer. Demandred wants to be the one to kill Rand. He's not going to let some lacky like Taim do it, or let some other Forsaken take that glory.


fgHFGRt

It was a capture not a murder


participating

> why would he be stupid enough to not take back the order to keep Rand alive? Was just answer this part of your question. (Unless I misunderstood what you meant?)


fgHFGRt

Oops, what I meant is why did he not just tell Taim to let Rand be captured.


participating

Multiple possible answers (though no clear one). Maybe Mesaana didn't tell Demandred her plans, so he couldn't have told Taim. Maybe she did tell Demandred, but he didn't want Rand captured. He wants Rand close to his sphere of influence. (Again, they are all selfish and think they know what's best. They only thing they won't be selfish with is a direct order from the Dark One.)


fgHFGRt

Maybe that is it. It just seems really odd Demandred would save Rand though, (with Taim as a presumed proxy)


SoftBatch13

I've always seen it as a cover. Demandred hadn't built up enough power/influence by that point to show his hand. He had to show up to maintain the idea that he supported Rand and wasn't one of the Forsaken. If he doesn't show up, it's too easy for Rand to jump to the right conclusion about who he is.


yellsatrjokes

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule."


Voltairinede

Do you mean why did Demandred not order Rand killed? Because it would directly contravene the Dark Ones orders. (Not that stopped various Forsaken trying to kill him at various parts)


fgHFGRt

So if the DO really did order Rand not to be killed, why did Taim interfere with Rands Capture, which would not kill him.


Voltairinede

To raise himself up.


fgHFGRt

So he staged a capture, letting the only threat to the shadow to roam free to get a better standing in the black tower?


Voltairinede

I'm answering the same question in both threads so I'll leave this one.


QuestionablySensible

I mean, he could have been going to capture Rand himself, but Rand broke free himself before he could. And Taim did not want that confrontation right then.


fgHFGRt

Yes, Rand would likely have broken free due to the battle anyway. The ashaman just ended up destroying the Shaido, helping him preserve the rest of the army outside the dome.


OozeNAahz

You assume Demandred thought Taim would interfere. Could be he just assumed that because he wouldn’t have tried to save Rand, Taim wouldn’t either. One thing about selfish people is that they think everyone else is selfish the same way.


TopEmploy9624

Taim was Demandred when RJ wrote Lord of Chaos. RJs notes say that the Forsaken didn't know Sevanna's plans so Demandred intervened to stop her from capturing him


OozeNAahz

This is known? Everything I can find is that this is reader speculation.


SlipperstromBoone

http://www.theoryland.com/forums/discussion/8767/signings-and-secrets Here’s the confirmation, apparently from someone with access to RJ’s notes. Also includes an explanation of OP’s original question. SPOILER WARNING: Been a while since I read this post in detail but I imagine it has spoilers for the whole series.


OozeNAahz

You seem to read that differently than I do. First, you have RJ’s wife saying RJ explicitly stated they were not the same person. And you have a quote saying Demandred would show up claiming to be Taim… which pretty much means they are different people. And seems to read more like Demandred at a few points disguises himself as Taim to get shit done. Doesn’t mean they are the same person.


wRAR_

> And you have a quote saying Demandred would show up claiming to be Taim… which pretty much means they are different people. Of course Demandred is different from real Taim which we never saw.


OozeNAahz

How do you know we never saw him? That doesn’t follow from what you linked.


wRAR_

I haven't linked anything, but you seem to be missing the context of the notes quote, which talks about the first scene with Taim we see.


seitaer13

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule"


fgHFGRt

Letting Rand secure more power as the dragon reborn will not help that plan, even if it creates chaos. The result would be a United world behind the dragon reborn.


seitaer13

It absolutely does. The shaido dispersed, Tower sisters swearing to Rand, Rand distrusting all of his allies That absolutely causes even more chaos.


fgHFGRt

It killed a lot of shaido, but it was sammael that dispersed them.


seitaer13

Which is only a consequence of Dumai's Wells


gadgets4me

It was a consequence of them getting their tails handed to them at the battle of Cairhien as well. The were trapped and hemmed in, so to speak.


Voltairinede

It was a massive blow to the tower's prestige, cemented Taim's position, eventually got black sisters into Rand's inner circle etc.


fgHFGRt

It may have been the first, but it seems to me that the last two points do not seem like the kind of things you would stage a capture to get. It seems like a stretch.


Voltairinede

What do you mean 'stage a capture'? I mean I think people have said it already but there's no reason to think Taim was working with those black sisters.


fgHFGRt

I suppose he was not,but why did he free the only threat to the shadow?


Voltairinede

Because it was the option that would personally advantage him.


fgHFGRt

How?


Voltairinede

You can't think of why the white tower having Rand would be bad for the black tower, the main force dedicated to crushing the black tower?


fgHFGRt

That's actually fair


wRAR_

The Lord of Chaos is Rand, duh.


gadgets4me

I thank you misunderstand what Rand's "threat to the shadow" actually was. The DO (& Moridin) were trying to break Rand with mistrust and anguish, and turn him loose to spread chaos and disunion, and the capture accomplished that perfectly. The ultimate plan was to turn Rand, only capture or kill him as secondary, fall back position. Most of the Forsaken did not understand this. A very real interpretation of the "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" order is that Rand, and his emotional state, is the Lord of Chaos. The capture/torture served to drive a wedge between Rand and various organizations that should be uniting with him to fight the shadow, ingratiated Taim with him and created huge divisions.


fgHFGRt

Very interesting, I would have asked how this plot, and there plans related to turning him, but it's clear that they almost did in book 12 on dragonmount.


ventusvibrio

Bruh, the dark one plan was to make Rand thinks he’s the absolute representative of man kind. That way, the DO only have to break one person to break the world. Even in during the last battle, the DO was still trying to break Rand.


cavedog88

I think a key thing to remember is that the Chosen are either striving for the role of Nae’blis, which you can’t share with another, or at the least not displease The Great Lord. So, it better suits each of them to plot and plan their own games and webs, taking advantage of what they know or assume the others are doing. Keeping secrets or simply being vague aids their goals, and in a world where Compulsion can be used to squeeze information from anyone, the less they share, the better. As Moiraine said (I think), “A plan revealed, is a plan doomed to fail.”


becooltopeople

Taim is power hungry but the Black Tower is still just getting its feet under it. He has a small army of powerful channelers loyal to him but he's still not in a position to use that power without Rand legitimizing him. If Rand was captured by the Aes Sedai, Taim probably figured that they would use him as a puppet and they're definitely not friendly to the Black Tower - it would quickly be delegitimized by Rand himself (under orders from the White Tower) and Taim would become a fugitive. Showing off what he and the Asha'man can do against the Aiel was just icing on the cake.


fgHFGRt

Maybe that is the answer. Interesting, thank you.


Separate-Artichoke90

Dumai's Wells further pushes Rand into crazy/Darth Rand. It makes Rands allies and enemies scared of the destruction capable of the new black tower and its Asha'man all of whom will go mad andve able to do things like that without something like the three Oaths . It helps divide the tower and weaken Elida, the towers defeat and the failed kidnapping is one of the first things Alviarin holds over her and uses to control her. It also gave Taim a good bit of cover so he doesn't come off completely Evil and antagonistic towards Rand. He was very close to getting his cronies as Rands personnel guard. Not every victory means that you have won, and even defeat can be a good thing in the long run. After all the dark one is very pleased with how it worked out.


fgHFGRt

Interesting points. Do you think the entirety of it was intentional? Mesaana seems to have wanted to control Rand.


Samboni00

Let The Lord Of Chaos Rule


Nice-Awareness1330

If he was already on the dark ones side then. Similar reasons for the unexpected assistance with sammael. Rand alive uncommitted to the dark one but with the potential to turn is more valuable to the dark one the. A dead rand. Not sure he is ltt raves at all men who can channel even one's we know are on the side of the light. So I don't think that is a fair indicator that he was always a dark friend. If he was not turned then simple greed and or it was his job. Does not matter at the time the black tower could not stand with out Rand. They where in a land that did not want them no way to get money other then Rand and could not realy defend them selfs. If I was in the market to turn taim I would have waited till I had gotten the most out of his zeal for the light and wated for the shine to rub off and then make a offer. His orders could have simply been use the dragon to rase new dread lords fake subservience till he is no longer needed or told otherwise.


Suncook

The shaido were a wild card and the Forsaken were under orders not to let Rand die. And a Rand with PTSD who had major reason to not trust Aes Sedai also played into letting chaos reign.


DenseOntologist

It pushes chaos and pits Rand forever against Aes Sedai, from the point of the DO. Taimandred is helping to turn Rand to the shadow while ensuring that he gets to build up dreadlords in the Black Tower. He also doesn't want Mesaana to succeed. Agreed that the plot lines are a little messy here, maybe even very messy. The bad part of that is RJ waffling on Taimandred and also being not great at writing villains. The good part of that is that the DO's minions are all self-interested and scrabbling for power, which means that they mess up each others' schemes.


fgHFGRt

Hey wait a second, demandred (I like how you call him taimandred) certainly does not want the dragon under the control of another chosen. They WOULD damage each others plans, would they not? I failed to consider that. Putting that along with some other reasons I have heard I think I have my answer. I think the main problem with some of the writing here is that RJ does not make some of the shadows plotlines very clear. It epukd have been interesting too see how the shadow screwed up there plans like that. Although it did nit screw up Demandreds plans. He wanted rand to himself at the last battle. His position as the dragon is important to his position in Shara.


Ok-Nature-4563

The forsaken fight and kill each other as much as they do the light, don’t forget that


wrenwood2018

This is an issue throughout the series. There are video games level situations where minions challenge the heroes or don't engage them directly. Yeah obviously the logical thing would be to just murder anyone who opposes you. Why take the wonder girls through the ways to just collar them? It would have been easy for a forsaken to just be there to shield and murder them. I will admit it lessens the Forsaken a ton. Having no real deaths of course characters make them a joke or 80s cartoons." I'll get you next time" level of threat.


JMer806

By book 6 it is very well established that the DO and Forsaken do not want to kill Rand. That’s why they continue to toy with him up through at least his fight with Sammael (and why Moridin helps him fight Sammael).


three-one-four-one

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule." Now the Dragon Reborn absolutely does not trust the White Tower; the Aes Sedai are furious because of the oath of fealty; Everyone thinks he has sworn fealty to the Amrylin; he almost lost the Aiel... Rand has to be at the Last Battle if the DO is going to kill time, so there is really no downside for Taim to save him at the last minute


ChocoPocket

Ah! Because chapter 54 was already written and 56 needed to happen. Or - something to do with seven eating nine


fgHFGRt

Lol I like this one


CupofTuffles

If Demandred, then he wants to defeat LTT, not have someone kill him, not have him handed over in a box. Demandred needs to know he is superior to LTT, and I think would absolutely free Rand so that he could defeat him later, fairly. If Taim, this is a good opportunity to show his asha'man the weakness of their Dragon. He can appear to be the dutiful m'hael, show the world his power, and put a wedge between the asha'man and Rand. No one benefits from a dead Rand at the moment, mostly due to their own egos, and no one wants Tar Valon to have him.


moremommapoorpoppa

I always took this as something that was explained during Rand’s battle with the DO - the dark one never wanted him dead, but to turn to the DO’s side by hurting him, confusing him, making him doubt all that is good and thus turning away from the Light. Taim saving Rand, then betraying him as a dark friend/forsaken was work towards that end. So was the kidnapping, meant to show him Aes Sedai can’t be trusted and break his spirit. As Verin said, the dark one is not easy to understand. As others hear have said, let the lord of chaos rule. It’s never explicitly said as this is the reason, but that’s always what I thought about it.


Malbethion

There are a lot of reasons. First, the Demandred-Mesaana-Semirhage “alliance” was more basic. “We don’t attack each other until the rest are overcome”. Nothing so complex as sharing plans. Second, the tower’s plan failed before Taim arrived. The Shaido would have overcome the Aes Sedai, or Rand would have escaped / been rescued. The only third option would be for Rand to get killed in the fighting which violates the order to keep him alive. Third, capturing him does not “let the lord of chaos rule”. The shadow must *break* the dragon, not kill him. If Rand dies, this turning is a draw - which fails to achieve the Dark One’s goals. Fourth, it is unclear how closely Taim was being monitored or directed. He escaped the Aes Sedai as a darkfriend, but he may have simply been following a more general plan to corrupt the Dragon’s efforts and make new dreadlords. He weakened the Tower’s public standing considerably by his efforts, and alienated some aes sedai from Rand. Just like Erza nuked a forsaken in book 9, Taim may well have been ignorant to the role his actions would take in defeating a plot led by other darkfriends. Or he may not have cared, since he wants glory for himself.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

RAFO. You say to the guy in the middle of his 3rd read through? Much helpful very teaching.


Tin__Foil

Ah, I missed that line, I’m glad you were here to be randomly rude about it.


[deleted]

Any time friend.


Separate-Artichoke90

I think so he definitely stalls and alienates his close friends afterwards. Which works for the Shadow and I don't think that Elida would have able to keep her self from gentaling him. Which I think is against the Dark Ones wishes, an intact but angry insane dragon at Tarmon Gai'don.


ALL_CAPS_VOICE

They figured that the Dragon Reborn in the White Tower could potentially backfire hard. The Shadow does not want the Tower and the Dragon working together. Additionally, the goal of traumatizing Rand and ensuring that he will not work with the Aes Sedai was accomplished. Demandred is quite proud of himself and the Dark One seems to agree.


ventusvibrio

Because Taim was ambitious. He knew about the plan of kidnapping the dragon and used it as a mean to win Rand’s trust. Rand never came back to the black tower after the Well and even defended Taim when Logain accused Taim of being a dark friend.


JMer806

I always wondered how Taim even knew where Rand was. I don’t remember it ever being explained.


wRAR_

https://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=60#25


JMer806

Oh interesting! Thank you for that. I’m not surprised RJ had an answer in his pocket but I do wish that had been explained in the text somewhere.


wRAR_

Many things are like that.