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nagurski03

>I do feel like the cheapness of death is being overused. I really agree with this. The final episode had 4 death fake outs and a 5th that could maybe count. That is way too many to keep viewers invested.


M3rr1lin

Yeah, and its super weird that Rafe talks about preparing for us to lose people who don't die in the books. They aren't really doing a great job thus far.


helloperator9

No, it looks like Uno, Loial and (obvs) Nynaeve survived. This feels like a story-telling issue rather than a story issue - we've had to have the showrunner confirm out of show that Loial is alive. To me it was bad make-up and direction on Nynaeve - Egwene should have noticed Nynaeve was still alive. They could have easily shown Nyn was on the brink of death, breathing raspily and then have Egwene actively try to heal her, maybe failing at first, getting desperate and then heal her. As it was the make up looked like she really was dead and so the audience was like 'She's dead!' then 'no, she's alive and fine!' and was just confusing. I'd have been much more on board if they could have given us grief, then faint hope, desperation and then relief.


rollingForInitiative

I think what also made it seem like a death scene coming was the speech Nynaeve gave, it was a really typical goodbye speech. If Nynaeve had just dropped suddenly, and then Egwene had been shocked and Healed her, it wouldn't have seem as much as a fake death.


helloperator9

Yeah, they prepared you to think the character was about to die. Then made it look like she was dead. Then she wasn't dead? It was poorly done, I hope it wasn't time compression, it didn't seem that way, because they had two scenes where Nynaeve was basically dead, they could've used that time to tell a better story where Nynaeve expected to die but the audience know she's not dead.


rollingForInitiative

Yeah exactly! Big difference between Nynaeve/Egwene thinking she will die, and the audience. The former is fine. The latter is ... well I will not say it's bad, but they're definitely using it too much.


helloperator9

Yeah I want to be shouting at the screen, "she's not dead doooooo somethiiiing!!!" rather than thinking how will the show do xyz in season 5???


nagurski03

If Uno survives, that would bring it to 5 and a half fake outs. Moiraine, Nynaeve, Loial, Uno and Ishamael are full fake outs. Rand stabbed himself in the dream, but I don't think we were supposed to assume that he really died.


LegendofWeevil17

Plus Lan and other Aes Sedai in earlier episodes. And Thom and Nynaeve that non-book readers would assume actually died


thorbearius

For me, the pacing issue is the biggest problem. In my opinion that is what sank episode 1 and 8. All in all, I think the show has been pretty good and that the potential is there for it to become great. I am so sad Barney left the show because he stole each scene he was in. Such a bummer ☹️


NotSoSalty

We should have spent at least 1 episode with Thom and the boys. Thom gives excellent exposition and is a pseudo father figure for both of them that is extremely important to their character development.


sufficiently_tortuga

I'm giving Ep8 a LOT of leeway for having to deal with the sudden departure of a major character and dealing with COVID right at the end of shoots I liked the show overall but mostly because I'm trying to separate the show and books into clearly different things. But if theyre choosing to continue major changes like that last episode, it's hard to enjoy it as a retelling rather than a fan fiction "based on the story" of WoT. I can't speak for none book readers. Maybe Amazon doesn't care since they seem to be appealing to a wider audience. That might backfire on them if they don't actually know where they're taking their new story. It might end up like Song of Ice and fire, except in this case they're choosing to ignore the story that's already been set.


imawaffle

I'm decidedly not giving them ANY leeway for either issues. Covid messing with production times and scheduling? Delay the episode/season. Barney isn't coming back? Replace him and continue. It'll be a hell of a lot less jarring than what we got. Have Donal come out of the baths at Tar Valon and be like "man that bath was great, I feel like a new man" then look at the camera for 2 seconds and off we go. This is an exclusively streaming show. What rush are they in to get this out immediately? Shit with all the animated episodes, they could pump those out for a good long while and give them time to delay, schedule, and edit. The onus is not on the audience to forgive issues like they had. It's their job to work around it, or at the very least let the audience know what the hell is going on. Amazon has a whole system set up for getting info to watchers through Xray. Put a note that says, "man sorry Covid messed up this scene, we'll make it better later since this is streamed and we can just upload a whole new edit"


LegendofWeevil17

Also here is a way better way to deal with Barney leaving; Mat is too sick from the dagger and only a bunch of Aes Sedai can heal him. So he stays in Tar Valon to rest / heal instead of going with the others. This solution changes nothing about what they shot while also not massacreing the character


becooltopeople

I would add "immersion" to the bad. The show struggled to feel cohesive from scene to scene and episode to episode, as if it was trying to force plot points instead of letting them play naturally. I think this is from a lack of writing polish. "Janky" is a word that comes to mind. For the same reason, the world felt vast and empty to me, there was no sense of a continent full of different nations and cultures. Even Fal Dara, with its distinct look and feel, only weakly conveyed a sense of its own militaristic, duty-obsessed culture. Agelmar's folly helped with this but it's the same as above - it felt like a plot point being shoved at me rather than a story unfolding. Jordan may have been too keen to chew the fat, but the show is far too shy. They need to let their world simmer more. I think this flaw can be vastly improved in season 2.


Waniou

This is a lot of it for me here. They really need more world building, especially around the lore of the Dragon. Why is the Dragon Reborn such a big deal? Why should we care?


LegendofWeevil17

Which frustratingly is perfectly explained by the book prologue. You could adapt the prologue in about 5 minutes of screen time then finish with a voice over of this: “And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” There you go, perfectly explains the dragon


DjCim8

>They need to let their world simmer more. Couldn't have said it better.


rollingForInitiative

Before the show, I remember someone saying that every episode should start with some sort of map view, following the wind to wherever the episode takes place. Something like that, with a map, would've been nice to show people the scope of the world. There's so much traveling going on, I feel like it might've been nice to illustrate their travel on a map as well.


artillarygoboom

It doesn't help that every scene attempts to maximize ethnic diversity. The world just feels like a big mishmash of cultures with no real separation. It's fine to have diversity but to create it for the sake of it is stupid. It needs to be brought in as the small town group travels abroad. Not instantly from the start and then have it everywhere they go.


keithmasaru

I like their reasoning, though. The Breaking scattered people and cultures became big melting plots.


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keithmasaru

yes…but the racial makeup of those nations would be made up of many different backgrounds with people wandering around.


Betancorea

They tried to go too hard with diversity with Fal Dara. Having it Asian themed is great but suddenly you have random Caucasian soldiers present seems off. Not a big deal but a bit jarring. Just make the Borderlands Asian, the Aiel pale and red haired, the Domani dark skinned, etc etc. Makes it easier for the audience to differentiate the different peoples. There's nothing wrong with a lack of local diversity in an age where travel is restricted to foot and wheel for the majority.


gmredditt

I think this is a difficult thing to achieve, particularly for extras. Especially difficult when dealing with COVID. In the show's defense, they write this into Thom's dialogue with Mat: (paraphrased) "you can usually only tell where someone is from by their clothes or speech, but red hair is pretty much never seen outside the Aiel Waste". edit: fixed a typo


lala989

I agree completely. The diversity is amazing, having every race in each country including the ones who are supposed to be ethnically specific is ridiculous. I noticed the same thing with the white, Indian and black women soldiers all supposed to be native to Fall Dara. I know it's a choice but it really blurs the lines of any kind of national pride to this world- and that is actually really important to all the characters.


keithmasaru

National pride shouldn’t be based on skin color.


lala989

I'm talking about the nations in the book, I'm not an expert on what each look like but they are more or less unique in style and culture if not looks.


keithmasaru

I think the point is that the culture of the post-Breaking nations could end up being made up of people from many different pre-Breaking locales, therefore the new nations would have a more diverse ethnic background.


lala989

That's a good point, for sure. Thanks.


Consistent-Annual268

Adding one more issue: frankly film school level atrocious screenwriting technique. I'm not talking about the cheesy and contrived dialog in some places (my God it was terrible in places), but rather a very poor use of setup and payoff throughout the season. Few examples: 1. We burn 6 episodes on setting up a DR mystery, then reveal it in episode 7 in a 30s montage using ALMOST NONE of the previous clues to reveal the answer (even worse, they replay some previous scenes just blatantly pointing out that they lied to the audience by withholding information about Rand channeling and Tam's fever dream) 2. We burn 2 episodes showing warders' interactions and the warder bond, then...? When did it come into play again? 3. We show Lan and Stepin practicing forms in Ep 4, then never see them using any in the battle within the very same episode 4. We invent and kill Perrin's wife to make his choice between violence and non-violence more visceral, and we make him learn about the Way of the Leaf. In the end we pay this off by him...digging a hole and running away from darkfriends?


rollingForInitiative

>We burn 6 episodes on setting up a DR mystery, then reveal it in episode 7 in a 30s montage using ALMOST NONE of the previous clues to reveal the answer I'd say that's because there were almost no good story-based clues. It's great that non-book readers got to try and guess who the Dragon is, but it felt like the clues and people's speculations were mostly meta-based rather than lore-based? Lore-wise, Rand had the "maybe Aiel" and "super strength". Egwene could channel, but then Nynaeve could channel more. Perrin had some wolf-thing, Mat had a dagger and could maybe channel because he was sick. But much of the rest was stuff like "Rand has nothing going for him/Has protagonist vibes" or "it would be Rand because a book from the 90's would have the white guy as the main character" or "they probably made it Egwene because a female protagonist is popular" or "Perrin has a very tragic backstory" or "Mat had a moment with Logain". A lot of the clues we saw also assume that the viewer doesn't know what the One Power can do, which also feels like a very meta thing. Hiding Tam's fever dream I don't mind because it would've been such a dead giveaway ... but what I was missing, at least, was the use of some sort of lore stuff. What if we'd gotten a part of the prophecy in episode 1? Even something they made up for the show, that could fit any of the E5 at the start. And then had clues based off that, instead (or in addition to meta information). They said they wanted the prophecies to be vaguer in the show, fair enough - what if we'd gotten to see Moiraine talk to Lan about it, speculating, and people could've speculated with her? Then the final piece could've been something Min said, after Rand had his epiphany. I don't know. Something like that is what I was missing. Most of my issues with the season boil down to something like this - an idea for a change that I can appreciate, but executed poorly (or not to my taste, sometimes).


M3rr1lin

Agree a lot here. 1. The DR thing was fun, but the montage didn’t hit as well for me as some others who liked it (I think Brandon really liked how they did that). My biggest gripe with this is that the whole baby born on dragonmount thing had no build up to it. Show only watchers have no clue why that is significant. 2. This is hard because I thought it was overall really well done in those episodes, but I think the payoff is much later. In my opinion it took away too much from the core story they needed to tell, and while it’ll be important to set this stuff up having it done in the middle two episodes of a short season was an error in my opinion. 3. I didn’t really notice this as much. I don’t think its really that big of a deal. 4. Perrin was grossly underutilized. They had this super big moment for him in episode 1 and did a semi-good job through episode 5 showing some conflict and introspection with the way of the leaf. But then we just lose him for episode 6 (he has like 5 words to say) and episode 7 he’s used pitifully for that dumb love triangle. The violence thing just comes back at the very end. I will blame some of this on Barney leaving and them needing to figure out how to write around that for the last two episodes..


cornofears

> This is hard because I thought it was overall really well done in those episodes, but I think the payoff is much later The thing is, they did have the chance for some payoff in ep8. Moiraine went with Rand to the Eye fully intending to die; the conversation between Lan and Nynaeve could have referenced that. I appreciated the nod to the books with Lan's monologue, but it didn't really make sense in the context of the show. A callback to Stepin would have felt much more cohesive.


Chesus42

Also in the books when he's giving that speech it's a "I want you but I can't have you" sort of thing, on the show it came across as a "I may have just had you but I can't have you.... for reasons I'm not going to make clear."


-cyg-nus-

We needed Lan's line about only having the widows black to give her, and maybe 2-3 lines about why that is. Then this scene isn't awkward at all.


Fenix42

So much of the show is fixed with 1 or 2 lines. Add a "we have no choice, the dark one is winning" to the LTT scene and it's amazing. Add in 1 or 2 lines about the horn and episode 8 gets way better. A few lines form about the Eye from Loial and it's not blpull d out of thin air.


Chesus42

They could have cut some of the time they spent showing the channelers doing their weird spastic gyrations while linked. Or maybe not tell us that the gate won't hold so many times.


BlueHeartbeat

>the channelers doing their weird spastic gyrations I cannot get out of my head Egwene arms open shaking her titties, that scene looked so bad lmao.


zedascouves1985

Change what Moiraine said in the Blight from. "Don't touch anything" to "Touch only what I do" and it fixes a glaring issue lots of people have pointed out, as they keep touching stuff in that set!


skyeguye

They tried to make the relationship more developed, but in doing so they made Lan a fuckboi. It's the sort of really shallow "adaption" that created Perrin's wife.


zedascouves1985

Something that irks me even more with the love triangle scene. If Perrin follows the Way if the Leaf, as is told in episode 8, why was he menacing to Rand in the argument? Did he intend to follow with that threatening attitude? Him following the way of the leaf came out of the left field for me due to that. He didn't seem peaceful at all in that interaction. The show chose cheap melodrama that's dumb and quickly solved to showing something new about the characters, like Perrin maybe saying to the others if he was the Dragon he still wouldn't use any violence even against the Dark One.


Consistent-Annual268

I won't so easily forgive #3 though, it occurs within a self contained episode under the control of one writer and director of the episode. It's the kind of setup and payoff in-episode that is very basic film school level screenwriting technique. They created, then fully squandered, a FANTASTIC opportunity to show off the prowess of warders by showing them actually in battle and how much better they are than even an army - for Pete's sake this was the "warder" episode, give them something to do!


Semarin

Agreed. Lan is the greatest swordsmen in the land. Would any non book reader know that from having watched the show? Nope. How do we go 8 episodes without fitting that in?


Betancorea

Not to mention zero discussion on Rand's Heron-marked sword despite randomly showing it from time to time. They could have had Lan make a passing remark on Blademasters then show some background scenes of him guiding Rand through the movements to indicate training. But no. Gotta Mary Sue Nynaeve and Egwene instead


Noblman_Swerve

EotW didn't establish him as the best swordsman, he was the best Warder. Which also wasn't told or shown in any way tbf. I'm not sure he is the definitive best swordsman, if I recall the only reason he did his thing in the last book was because Galad kinda paved the way for him, and he had like one arm at that point.


helloperator9

I think this shows three things for me: 1/ TV writing isn't as good as author writing. The plotting in episode 8 was good in broad brush strokes. So the horn was kept safe in Fal Dara, Dark Friends knew it was there but not exactly where, Trollocs attack not just as a distraction but to get the defenders to reveal the Horn, at which point Darkfriends steal the Horn. Cool. But in the books, the hunt for the Horn is foreshadowed again and again with Thom, it's clearly a big deal in world. In the show, we get two lines, just enough to say 'this thing is really important!' And it didn't feel punchy because at the same moment Nynaeve is dead/dying and who cares about some magic object being stolen compared to that? So they wanted to accelerate some book 2 plot points (and apparently most writers except Rafe wanted to delete the Horn altogether) and so this weird compromise happened where Padan Fain explains his motivations to Perrin then saunters off. That whole last 15 minutes felt very 'TV writing' even if it was good set up. 2/ They really are thinking about the whole book series, not just season one. Apart from Nynaeve we don't get a sense of how amazing these characters are going to become, their arcs in the books are very long, and they won't get huge cumulations of character arcs in each season. Perrin did not have a pay off in season 1, Rand had a small pay off, but the show hasn't demonstrated the scale of his power yet, and maybe we'll see that more in season 2. I think Mat's arc will be even longer, he probably needs to get darker and tempted by the shadow before he can start to be heroic. Egwene has more to do next season too, with the WT and Seanchan. If Egwene, Perrin, Mat and Rand had all had an epic moment already, it's not clear how in the next 7 seasons their development will ring true. They'll already be competent and self-assured. 3/ People love the Aes Sedai stuff. The non-reader reactions I watched and listened to really loved Pike and Henney, they were fascinated by the warder bond and wanted to know more, the Aes Sedai factions, maneuvers all felt great. Let's face it, five villagers enter the big wide world pursued by evil with a destiny to fulfill worked better in 1990 and before Game of Thrones and if they lent into that not many people would be interested in the show beyond readers. But going back to 1/, the plot points and writing for the Aes Sedai/Warder stuff was not that great, even if the actors nailed it (Stepin being the case in point - it was great TV but was only really there to demonstrate the magic system and Aes Sedai. If you don't think the Warder/Aes Sedai theme will go anywhere then it might be worth remembering that the two top billed actors for this show are an Aes Sedai and her Warder, and season 2 is going to have to invent a side plot for Moiraine since she's hardly in book 2.


Soda_BoBomb

Mat being tempted by the shadow is by far the stupidest thing they could do for him. Completely against his character, it's so dumb.


helloperator9

I can't see how they won't push that a bit further in show. Personally I'd like if we open with the Reds catching him, then being forcibly healed, which changes his face and leaves him without the darkness but with an earned suspicion for Aes Sedai. But I hav a feeling they'll make Mat more grim, make him do some bad things, maybe encounter some Darkfriends, then heal him. And whilst book Mat is a good person, I'm rereading the Eye of the World at the moment and dagger-Mat is a pretty dark version of Mat so it doesn't feel uncanon yet, only if they remove the second healing scene and say this dark version of Mat is his character.


phooonix

Love your comment, thank you! The show has major problems separate and apart from the books.


Gusari

Perrin instantly showed me they dont want to challenge the audiance. I love perrins arc because of his struggle and how relatable it is. He is the naturally strongest and only one that even toys with peace as an idea. I love this struggle and my god they just nuder it by friging him. He now has no battle left, its just trauma, of course he doesnt want to use violence now, he murded his wife. Thats his identy.


helloperator9

That's a weird characteristation. It was clear to me that ep 8 was about him starting to overcome his grief, his sense of being a passenger, and wanted to do something, and almost ready to take the final step to violence. That shows me they've done a good job showing his trauma and that he couldn't just overcome it in the space of a couple of episodes, it's seeped inside him and something he will struggle with on a day to day basis, even after picking up an axe again. In TV they don't have inner monologues so they've done a decent job of setting Perrin up to actually do stuff next season (when we get this Elyas/Hurin hybrid guy).


Soda_BoBomb

I think you maybe missed his point just a little, this isn't an attack, just saying. For me, ans what I think he was trying to say, is that in the books Perrin doesn't want to use violence because it is his choice, his morals, his values that make him not want to do it. But, he also wants to protect what he loves from harm. It's a conscious decision he struggles with trying to reconcile his opposing morals. In the show, because of societies current obsession with trauma, they take that agency away from him. Instead of it being about his choices, it's about his trauma. Now, instead of a conflict of morals, we have him being damaged by murdering his wife.


Gusari

Thanks for being better with word than I, that describes it great


helloperator9

No worries, maybe I did misinterpret but the point was a bit odd, how's he fridging himself?? For me the characterisation is partly about morals though, he's traumatised because he's a good person, he's not excusing himself, and he sees violence as something which is inherently wrong, even if by ep8 he's getting to the point of 'wait, Trollocs exist, how can we be non-violent?'. And like you said, they used trauma because that's a big currency in TV drama that audiences can get behind. Like you, I'd have preferred he killed someone else, maybe one of the Luhan's, because that feels like something he could get over. I imagine they preferred the wife thing because it'll make it easier to make his relationship with Faile feel more significant, and for Egwene to tranistion away from Rand??


Soda_BoBomb

Well, would he still be so against violence if he hadn't killed his wife, or is his aversion to violence only because that happened?


helloperator9

Dunno, all we know about Perrin before he killed his wife is he's a blacksmith, a good mate and a husband who (kind of?) loves his wife. They didn't establish anything about Perrin and violence.


Distillasean

Amazon should have given them more than 8 episodes and I predict if they don’t give them more than 8 in season 2 these problems will only magnify. 1-7 were good but episode eight really shook my resolve and enjoyment of the show. The Rand and Ishy interactions were great and I’m so glad they ditched the Green Man but the rest of it was a bin fire. They even ruined the epic Seanchan arrival with that pointless tidal wave. I’m hopeful for season 2 but Rafe and the team need to stop making changes for the sake of changes and really tighten up the VFX and world building. I don’t need it to be a carbon copy of the book but I need the changes to be sensible and enriching.


emarinpendaloan

Just wanted to say that I see a lot of people saying there was no reason for the Seanchan to create that tidal wave, but it's just the show's version of the Seanchan attacking the Watchers over the Waves, who are an organization with very little screen time in the books but are named in the Karaethon Cycle. They have watchtowers along the cliffs of Toman Head and are supposed to be keeping an eye out for the return of Hawkwing's descendants. For *reasons* in the books, the Seanchan punish the Watchers by attacking their towers and then killing them one at a time, iirc because they "forgot what they were looking for" or something.


estein1030

They should have showed watchtowers then. As it was it looked like they summoned a tidal wave to kill a little girl on a beach.


emarinpendaloan

I don’t agree that it looked like they summoned that wave to hit the girl. They certainly couldn’t see her from that distance. But I do agree that they should have shown the watchtowers.


tajniak485

Giving them more time wouldnt change anything since they didnt use properly time they were given, the sheer amount of filler left them no place to adapt book


BlueHeartbeat

A lot of the issues all seem to stem from the same origin: inexperience. The writing is very amateurish in many parts, the understanding of the characters and the world appears superficial from its implementaion, and even the cinematography is not as good as it could be. I finished Witcher s2 yesterday and the two shows have allegedly the same budget, but the framing and sets in The Witcher look much more believable than here, meaning the budget was not allocated as competently. Every problem in season 1 of this show seems to directly relate to the main producer. It looks like there are a number of issues but they all share a single thread. He's the issue.


GetawayArtiste

I'm with you on the casting except for maybe Perrin. Someone needs to tell Mark to close his mouth, he leaves it half open all the time. Perrin is described as pensive not dumb looking


CompleteSpinach9

FACT also posture


Deviate_Taco

I might get down voted, but im going to disagree with the nyn/lan romance being stronger in the show. She'd been with them for a few days, a week at most, before the logain episode. Then she sees him almost dead and let's out a wail that allows her to unlock mass healing because of her love for him? Yeah, they sorta flirted in the woods, but that definitely shouldn't have led to what happened at the end of the episode. Their woods flirting is about as serious as egwene flirting with aram in eotw.


CompleteSpinach9

I like your comment. Lan struggling while Nyn puts herself in danger a la white cloaks was always one of my fave pieces of groundwork in EOTW and I would’ve liked to see something akin to that in this season. I do wonder if they wrote Nyn to have such a visceral reaction to forest flirting because as a woman that had always been identified as “somebody’s boss”, she’s never actually been hit on by a grown, sexy man that isn’t afraid of her.


TeddysBigStick

In the books there is also the fact that she has not aged since she was 15 or whenever she first started channeling so everyone still views her as a kid/wisdom who is not mature enough for her job.


Clawtor

Also they have sex and then Lan says they can't be together and givex her a flowery speech. Wtf Lan.


Soda_BoBomb

But it's not the full speech, it's only a part of it so they can point to it as a direct pull from the book, but leaving out part of it kinda changes what he was saying especially since they had just had sex.


Deviate_Taco

Wait, did that happen in the show? Cause they don't do the do until after they get married in like the 6th or 7th book.


Clawtor

Yes it happens in ep 7 I think.


Deviate_Taco

So everybody's just getting it on all Willy nilly now, are they? What is this, game of thrones?


rollingForInitiative

I think it's still way better than in the books, where they look grumpily at each other until the Blight, where Lan basically says he's unworthy to marry her and she needs to love somebody else and Nynaeve cries. I find it much easier to believe that she'd get very angry about someone that she's started liking (not necessarily loving) almost dying before her eyes. He's the one she's connected with in all the chaos.


tpatter7

The book version is much harder to show. It starts with a reluctant respect, and slowly builds into an actual caring. It's a far more subtle situation, especially with the differences in character between book and show versions of the characters. You have to read between the lines. While personally I find the book version much more nuanced and profound, the show version works for a screen adaptation. I very disliked Lan using that line in the show. In the book, he told her to love someone else because he's bonded to Moraine, his life is fighting the DO, he has nothing but an empty title to his name (the way he sees it), and he isn't in a place to settle down and really be with someone. He's trying to protect her. In the show it felt like he used her and then is discarding her, in a pale imitation of the book version. My issues with the Logain sequence are completely unrelated to this, so not gonna start on that. Those stem from them turning the hard magic system into a very soft one.


Deviate_Taco

I think the problem is that in the show we ha e seen the actual interactions between the two of them, but in the books we mostly only saw it through Rands point of view, who at the best of times doesn't catch on to clues very well. (See Min sitting on his lap kissing him and he still isn't sure if she's into him)


rollingForInitiative

We did actually get a few Nynaeve and Perrin PoV's with those interactions, but the only hint there is that Lan wants to go back for her. But then, RJ really leans into the whole "the boy pulled the girl's hair, that means he's in love".


strugglz

>downside of casting someone like Rosamund Pike. She’s just going to suck air out of the room for the other characters and she’s going to demand more screen time and juicier parts. Actually this fits well with Moiraine. That's exactly what an Aes Sedai does when surrounded by farm folk. [BOOKS]>!Part of her arc is dealing with the fact that importance-wise she is shunted off to the side while still she struggles to maintain some kind of control over the EF5, in particular Rand.!< Other than that it's a good review.


ZaelART

No, I don't think this is in the sense of the show world. I think it is a meta statement. I get what you're saying about her acting and presence, which is correct. I think the comment isn't taking issue there as that is good. It is more that she is literally sucking time away from other stories. Example: They stilled her in the finale because they needed to create a new plotline for her character for next season. Otherwise she isn't doing much and they can't keep a big name with a big pay check on retainer. They have to give her screentime whether the story demands it or not. Which has and will keep creating issues.


phooonix

True. I for one won't mind more morraine though.


Deviate_Taco

I will if it once again causes others story plots to suffer in order to give her screen time. Have moraine front and center for the first season in order to make the dragon reborn a mystery? Sure. Now that that's over, we have a lot of shit to cover in the next 2 books and we already have to cut a lot more. We don't need even more stuff cut so she can have an original plot.


artillarygoboom

Agreed. If they wanted a Moraine focused show then they should have done New Spring first. Not Eye of the World. It is the wrong book to have a lot of focus on her. While she is a big character, she is definitely a supporting character in the first book and is never larger than that in the series. It is detracting from the other characters that are the actual main characters.


Consistent-Annual268

A good summary, but I'll strongly rebut your very first "good" point. The show does certainly NOT have a high production quality. One of the most frequent complaints is that the costumes are overly colorful and clean, that the interior shots look bare and stark, and that the lighting is flat and way too even. All this adds up to the show looking like a stage play with cosplay costumes, especially for interior daylight shots. There has been plenty said about the show looking like a CW level production, so yeah, this one is a hill I'll die on.


jakelong66f

Yes. This this and this. It looks cheap, overly saturated and too bright all the time. There is no contrast between highlights and shadows, there's no proper or consistent color grading and let's not even talk about the VFX.


sk4v3n

Yep, even Shadow and Bone looked more “real” in this sense and I bet that the budget was far less for that show. I guess the czech crew is not that experienced, hopefully this will get much better


zedascouves1985

No, it seems that this is a stylistic choice made by Rafe. Witcher and Carnival Row are also filmed in Czechia and don't give that feeling.


sk4v3n

I think the Witcher mostly filmed in Hungary just like Shadow and Bone


[deleted]

Those complaints are more in the realm of cinematography and color grading than in production design.


Consistent-Annual268

Production design (costumes and sets) are core to these complaints though. Cinematography is the other half of the same coin. Unless I'm misunderstanding what production design means? (I admit I'm not fully versant in filmmaking terminology so please correct me if you can explain it more clearly.)


[deleted]

IMO the problem is not with the sets, but rather the way they are being lit and shot. The costume complaints i dont really share honestly. Not everything in fantasy needs to be the dreary, muddy game of thrones look. I liked the costumes for the most part and felt that aspect was faithful to the books.


Consistent-Annual268

The sets are bare and empty though. Yes they are being poorly shot, but they aren't even that compelling to look at in the first place. Check out Books and Bianca's review of Ep 5. She does a fantastic analysis of the White Tower scenes (admittedly is a mix of design and cinematography, but she covers both very well).


[deleted]

I dont think the sets are bare and empty. All the fal dara sets looked good. The town and bar in ep 3 looked good. Streets of tar valon and interiors looks good. Aes sedai tents looked good. Tinker wagons and camp looked great. This is all my opinion obviously but i just dont think the sets were bad at all as a whole.


Consistent-Annual268

Yeah I keep picturing Tar Valon interior with its narrow short corridors, bare walls and serious lack of novices and accepteds. The other sets do indeed look fine and I'm not giving them credit.


[deleted]

Sure that one was a bit barren. But thats just one set. What others did you feel were lacking?


Consistent-Annual268

Hard to say. The others you mentioned do indeed look fine...but there is this quality about them that makes them "feel" like sets. Maybe it's purely the cinematography's fault, but only a few of them felt like actual building or city interiors. There was something that screamed movie set in most of the shots.


[deleted]

I think a big part of it is the pace was often so fast we barely got to know these places. All the tinker stuff felt good to me because it was slower, we had time with our characters just being there and interacting with the environment. Same with the town and tavern in ep 3, it felt like a real place because the show lingered there a bit.


DjCim8

I think it's mostly the lighting. It's really plain and boring, and makes sets "look like sets", rather than lived in places


csarmi

The white tower has very few novices and accepted, to be fair. That's one of their main issue.


phooonix

Concur.... I'm not a film guy but for production quality "I know it when I see it"


Lochrin00

The 'Colorful and Clean' aesthetic seems like a deliberate response to GoT and a lot of it's imitators. The whole 'Real is Brown', everything is dirty aesthetic has been a little overdone for a while. Same for the lighting. In GoT, especially in the final season, the show was so dark- *literally* dark, not just tonal dark- that I could not tell what was going on. They *may* have gone a bit too far in the other direction, though.


Consistent-Annual268

The lighting can be bright without being flat. It's the most basic of lighting that they teach in film school. For Pete's sake, there are many many YouTube channels showing how to do a basic lighting setup to cast proper contrast onto your subject's face.


theCroc

People both wore colorful clothes AND kept them clean in the rennaisance era. The image of the brown sack clothed peasant covered in mud is a hollywood invention.


d_faktor

Thank you for you constructive opinion. I think I agree with most of the points, good and bad. Through the season my main problem was pacing, in some episodes it was ok, but a lot of stuff feels rush. I really hope Amazon can give showruners more screen time in future. To the end of the season I have only one big problem with plot - with all this Dragon Reborn mystery we lost a lot of Rand personality and his power as DR too. I really think they should leave at least one of it in the show and give some screen time to develop it. I do believe we’ll get some super powerful Rand moment in the second season, hope it will not be too late. I enjoyed show in general too. Before the last episode my rating was 7.5/10 and I really wanted to give show 8, if final was good. But it wasn’t on the level of 4,6,7 episodes for me, so I think it would be right to give 7/10 to the S1 from me. And I’m looking forward for S2, hope we’ll get S3 confirmation soon.


12ozMouse_Fitzgerald

I strongly disagree about the mystery of the Dragon Reborn part. As book readers it seemed unnecessary to us, but it *completely* hooked every non-reader I knew. They went back and forth and most came to different conclusions (I had one friend who was absolutely *certain* it was all 5 of them). As a show hook, it undeniably worked for non-readers.


twoshotsofoosquai

I think the idea of doing a mystery was fine enough, it just wasn't executed well which makes us compare it unfavorably to the book. There were several flaws with how they did it: \- The mystery came at the expense of character development. Because they wanted to remove attention from Rand to make it a bigger surprise, they left him underdeveloped especially compared to the girls and to some extent, next to Mat. Perrin also got shafted because getting too much of his wolf storyline from the books would've made it too obvious he wasn't the Dragon, according to Rafe Judkins. \- The above leads to a lot of people not caring for Rand, and being disappointed in his reveal. \- They relied too heavily on hiding important information. The reveal came with the most important clues that had been hidden (the fever dream, although they still didn't explain why that was even relevant because the Dragon Reborn prophecies weren't mentioned clearly because again, they wanted to hide information), and Rand channeling saidin was added in after the fact. That's a cheap way to do a mystery. \- Most people who landed on Rand as the Dragon pre-reveal either did it by process of elimination or because "he has main character energy", which... fair enough, he stands out, which in and of itself is a clue, but the others being "too obvious" is a bad way to land on the right answer as well. After a good mystery, people should be even more excited by the reveal, and be able to look back and see the clearly defined trail of clues, and it should be fun to rewatch every time despite knowing the truth. I can't see this mystery having that rewatchability, especially with the hidden information.


M3rr1lin

I should have been a bit clearer. I think the mystery was good, but it really impacted Rands character. So it’s a bit of a cost/benefit thing. Maybe it worked well enough and season 2 can just get going that in hindsight it was the right move. I was just thinking I would have kept mystery but maybe toned it down a little bit to allow for more character development without being constrained by spoilers


artillarygoboom

I think they're going to need to nerf the magic that is being used by everyone in order to elevate the power that will be used in the future. They can't keep it as it is. It's hurting the threat level of the Forsaken and Rand.


12ozMouse_Fitzgerald

Now that we have our Dragon Reborn we can get into more character development for Rand. I personally felt he was by far the most well developed of the EM5 in the show - they showed his anger issues, the scene with the Darkfriend they establish the heart of his character ("I've always just done what I thought was right, then moved on to the next thing and tried to do right again") as well as establishing his work ethic with the wood chopping, his devotion to Mat and the other EM5 is shown repeatedly, the fact that he has a big heart and always believes in his friends, and how selfless he is. They have the building blocks all there, and as he has his solo adventure in season 2 we'll have a lot of good opportunity for character development. The rest of the EM5 got way less characterization IMO. I will never understand for the life of me how everybody seems to think they could cram all the necessary info, plot, and get 7 fully developed main characters in 8 episodes. There are more seasons coming, and a lot more time for deep character development.


ForgottenHilt

Rand doesn't really start off with anger issues though. He develops anger issues in the early books because no one listens to him, no one tells him anything, and people who he should be able to trust treat him like a leper. Moraine and the lords he encounters all try to use him, manipulate him or ignore him. Even when he's right or does something great he gets told he's an idiot. I'd develops anger issues too if I was in his shoes. Every time we get inside someone's head who knew Rand before the books start say how kind, gentle and good he was (stubborn too) but anger isn't really mentioned. The show has started him on the anger issues way too soon.


12ozMouse_Fitzgerald

With them skipping all those scenes in Fal Dara where his isolation and anger issues really kick off (I agree with your reasoning on how it starts to really develop), I think it's reasonable to introduce it a little earlier in the show. They didn't go overboard at all, just hinted at it. But they definitely started establishing it earlier. However I feel they also did a good enough job of establishing Rand as a kind and caring person too, so it's not like they sacrificed those elements of his character just for anger issues. Rand's selflessness is on full display in the climax of the season. We know in the show that he's a good person, it's ok to introduce some flaws a little earlier IMO.


Soda_BoBomb

Anger issues? Early Rand? Also, having him run from a tavern maid who stole his father's sword?


12ozMouse_Fitzgerald

Yes, they certainly introduced the anger issues earlier than in the books, but clearly we're skipping the part at Fal Dara where Mat and Perrin treat him like shit, which is really what sets him down that path IMO. I will miss the scenes of Lan training him and I'm not sure how they'll handle Rand learning the sword (I hope it's not LTT memory powers but I do wonder if that may be it), but I'm 100% *not* going to be upset at missing an episode or two of the Rand getting treated like crap by his friends. That part always made Perrin and Mat a lot less likeable for me, but did endear me to Rand more. My read of the tavern maid part was Rand panicking - it's not like Rand was gonna fight a woman, we know that much - he just had no idea what to do. Keep in mind he's never been on the wrong end of a sword before except for the trolloc in his house, this sort of violence/threat is very new to him. I actually thought him going for the knife at first was more out of character than him not trying to fight back. And we didn't get to see how Rand would ultimately have solved that situation because Thom kills the Darkfriend before Rand gets a chance. Notice that Rand is still upset at Thom for killing her - we know a big theme in the books is Rand definitely does not approve of violence against women for any reason.


Soda_BoBomb

I agree he wouldn't have attacked her with deadly intent, but he absolutely would have stood his ground imo. And yeah, not against less of his friends treating him like crap although I blame Egwene and the Aes Sedai more than anyone else for Darth Rand


FakerInTheDisco

They could start by not wasting 2 episodes on a doomed warder and a Logain plot line that is relevant to nothing.


rollingForInitiative

I wrote this in another comment, but my issue with the mystery was that it relied more on meta stuff, like who has what going for them, than any in-world information, prophecies or riddles about who the Dragon could be. There should've been more in-world clues, like getting to see some part of the prophecy, imo.


12ozMouse_Fitzgerald

I expect the Karatheon Cycle to feature prominently in season 2. In the same episode Rand picks up a copy of the KC in the Inn's library at Tar Valon, Siuan says "our prophecies are very clear" to counter Moiraine's doubt. I think now that Moiraine knows for sure he's the Dragon, she's going to start exploring prophecies and we'll get some of the good stuff from the Prophecies of the Dragon. We still have time.


phooonix

Concur here which is why the reveal was sooooo disapointing.


Soda_BoBomb

Sure, but was it needed? I don't think so personally.


Kerrah

JJ Abrams style Mystery Box techniques work while the mystery remains, as you described. How did your friends react when the truth was revealed, though?


12ozMouse_Fitzgerald

They're all quite invested. I had a long conversation with one last night who is absolutely *convinced* Padan Fain is Ishamael, had to hold myself back discussing that one. Won't stop asking questions about Perrin and is most excited to see his story next season. Another is still convinced the other four of the EM5 are part of the Dragon somehow. He's fascinated by the Age of Legends scene and asked a million questions about the Breaking of the World and how we got from AoL to where we are in the show. He loves the setting for that alone. Yet another is obsessively going back and forth between "the tidal wave was so dumb" to "I really need to know who those crazy looking fuckers on the ships are!" It's honestly kind of weird how much he's fixated on that one point, but he figured out who the Dragon was really early and didn't care about the reveal. My mom cried when Loial got stabbed and made me look up spoilers to see if he was alive for her. My sister is super into Lan/Nynaeve (tbh I think it's mostly Daniel Henney there though) and is fascinated and excited for more White Tower among other things. A couple other friends I haven't spoken in detail to texted me asking when the next season was coming/if they've started filming yet, so I'm looking forward to their final analysis. Finally, two others are binging it together this weekend and I'm excited to hear their thoughts, because based on literally everyone I know who's watched the show i think they'll enjoy it. Most non-readers seemed to pick up that WoT isn't only about Rand/the Dragon Reborn. They are invested in more than just the Dragon as a concept, they are into the characters and world. And most importantly, they seem to understand not everything can be explained in one season - the anticipation for next season is due to so many unknowns that are still there. Finding out Rand is the Dragon was not the end of the mysteries.


FourLeafViking

Solid review. I largely agree with your take on it. Season two is gonna be critical. I so much hope for it to be epic:)


account312

>Coupled with #1 above, by playing at the mystery of TDR we aren’t allowed to explore Rands character as much because its all too much of a spoiler. I actually like the mystery, since its a mystery in the books (in the fact the characters have no clue). It is not known to most of the characters in the book but that is not the same thing as it being a mystery. No one was wondering if they might be the dragon reborn or which of them was the dragon because the issue simply was not raised. Tweaking things to inject and focus on that mystery necessarily moved focus away from other aspects of the story, which I think was a mistake. >I’m not entirely sold on how soft they are making the magic system. Power levels are inconsistent and they are using the power to move plot along rather than be constrained by the rules. I’ve always viewed WOT magic as closer to Sanderson hard magic than to Tolkien soft magic, and the show in my opinion is a bit closer to Tolkien. *The eye of the world* was incredibly soft. Moraine called lightning and fire and did large scale illusions and long term tracking spells and more and there was essentially no mention of the mechanisms other than the occasional vague mention of being more tired from making a wall of flame because she's not as strong with fire. And Rand instinctively channels several times without even being aware he's doing it.


cc81

They are adapting the series though. Not eye of the world.


account312

Sure, but the series frequently used the power to move the plot along. There were plenty of deus ex just solve the problem by introducing (or even accidentally discovering) a new weave moments. Having someone do something without really knowing how isn't exactly canon breaking and it makes sense to reserve the explanation of the underpinnings for when they go off to magic school, of one sort or another. Now, omitting Nynaeve's block or making egwene a good healer or never getting around to actually explaining channeling at all would be a problem.


zedascouves1985

Only some characters showed how they felt about being the Dragon. Mat mostly. He considers the possibility preposterous, says they don't have wings, and then when he gets sick starts making suicide pact with Rand, so it's clear he doesn't like it. Rand, after the montage of ep 7, we get he was reluctant and didn't want it as well (though we don't get to see why). Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve, the show never addresses their attitude towards it. They could've shown Egwene's ambition or Perrin refusal to be a lord there, or hints of it. They could've shown Nynaeve's angry facade hiding insecurity. But the show didn't.


The_Steelers

I just don’t agree with any of the good points. I found the show to be altogether a miserable experience to watch. I felt like they weren’t true to the facts or the spirit of the story. I want the Wheel of Time story I know and love, and this ain’t it. I won’t be watching season 2.


OtherOtherDave

WRT playing up the mystery of who TDR is: It’s not a mystery in the books who the main protagonist is going to be, and it’s not much of a leap to get from that to who TDR is.


csarmi

Not to you anyway. It wasn't clear at all in book one where they were going.


nothing2021

Ep6 additional oath scene sums up everything wrong with the show


reztek2

The Worst: They took major plot points and gave them to side characters as throwaway lines. Ishamaels reason to join the dark giving to some darkfriend in a miner town? Bullshit. And even worse, Rands epiphany on top of Dragonmount from Veins of Gold to Logain as reasoning for thinking he is the dragon? One of the most important moments of the books, the decision between light and dark for Rand and they just fired it out in season 1 for Logain? I know he is a famous actor and shit but that is just dumb.


ballsacksnweiners

Egwene’s acting is not good, unfortunately. Not to mention they have her crying in every single scene. Rand and Perrin and Nynaeve I can get behind, but they also made Rand and Perrin incredibly boring and weak in the first season. Really not sure if I’m gonna tune in next season.


themechatron

>Going into episode 8 I was sitting at a strong 8-8.5/10. However with how weak episode 8 was I have to drop it to a 6.5-7/10. I think the show has a passing grade, but its not getting any awards. There was still a lot to like, but not hitting the ending really hurts. This is where I'm at. I still haven't re-watched episode 8 (watched it on my phone at my in-laws lol), so it may improve upon re-watch somewhat, but it was a big letdown. I also agree with your notes on losing Barney and then COVID impacting production providing a double whammy on the end of the season. I'm willing to grade on a curve a little for that, but... dang I wish the end had gone better. I'm still excited for season 2, but episode 8 (and to a lesser extent episode 7) turned an 8.5-trending-up into a 7ish-hope-next-season's-better.


MrNewVegas123

The problem is, Perrin barely struggles with violence in the shown. Let me find the post that explains why


Candide-Jr

The problem is that he doesn't even commit any acts of violence beyond the accident in the first episode. It's truly astonishing that when they had a ready-made moment for him in the books when he kills those Whitecloaks, and then agonises over it, that they would just... not bother adding it in, when it was perfectly easy to do, and obvious to anyone with a single braincell that Perrin in the show is in dire need of some development, action, agency, interest etc. Just idiotic.


LegendofWeevil17

And him killing his wife can’t even really be considered violence. It’s an accident. In the books: Perrin starts becoming one with the wolves, he gets excited about killing and that scares him. He thinks about killing Egwene so that she doesn’t have to die a horrible death by Ravens. He has extreme power to kill and his wolf side loves killing and that’s at odds with his kind side that doesn’t want to commit violence. In the show: Perrin accidentally kills his wife. Then doesn’t commit any more acts of violence until he turns into a wolf man (??) and hurts a white cloak. Then gets mad at Loial about the way of the leaf for some reason? I think it’s pretty obvious which one is more compelling


Candide-Jr

Exactly. I mean it really does just beggar belief.


MrNewVegas123

https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/rq7y25/perrin_a_book_readers_perspective_on_why_hes_okay/hq8x8g9?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3


sloppybro

The audience for the show seems to be non-book readers (which I recall having been confirmed). I, personally, welcome the changes. I prefer modifying the plot to cut out some of the chaff (which there is a lot of) in the books and some retooling to a straight 1:1 adaptation that doesn’t keep me guessing at all. They do want to appeal to non book readers so I’m certain all the EPIC scenes will be depicted. I’m not going to cry if they get rid of the Valan Luca arc, for example. I understand a lot of the hate I see here but the changes don’t really bother me since I’m coming at it with a different perspective. Overall I’d rate it a 6/10. Better than I thought it would be but certainly no early/mid series GoT.


Rinscher

Well both my wife and my friends came at it with a fresh perspective and found it a confusing mess at worst and kinda meh YA entertainment at best. Which hurts my soul as a longtime book fan who was hoping this series would get them all engaged enough to read the books.


M3rr1lin

I don’t really get the YA thing.


Consistent-Annual268

The pointless love triangle in Ep 7 and Rand pining over Egwene for multiple episodes is pure YA.


Lleland

Not to mention the "teens" being distrusting of the "adults" and displaying this petulantly in 1-3. Because they didn't spend any time exploring how the TR folk view Aes Sedai, nor any actual inter character dialogue aside from outbursts, it doesn't feel like earned suspicion, more of a "no I will NOT eat my vegetables!" tantrum.


Candide-Jr

Exactly.


M3rr1lin

That’s like saying GOT season 1 is YA because of Sansas cringy obsession with Joffrey. The big difference is they did that and then shoved tits in your face.


Rinscher

Comparing Sansa's naive obsession with a prince as a child to grown adults having a love triangle involving someone who just axed their wife makes you sound way more defensive than objective here.


Rinscher

They got major YA vibes from the love triangle stuff.


M3rr1lin

Sure, its a bit eye rolling, but it seems a bit extreme to label a whole show as YA based on that.


Rinscher

I'll tell them you said that I guess.


sloppybro

Nuclear take: the series itself is essentially YA, the prose is PG. I started reading them when I was 11. I think any adaption is going to reflect that, no matter how well it’s executed.


FernandoPooIncident

Absolutely. The first two books were even published in YA editions.


Willywilkes

Especially the constant “oh other EF male totally understands girls and I know nothing” trope - it was so juvenile and such a distraction. I get a little “humor” in each of them thinking the other is more confident but it was overplayed and a major turn off for me, and that’s as a mid30s YA fan who only started the series in Nov 2019.


Candide-Jr

Yes, but there are plenty of mature elements. The disappointing thing is that instead of grasping onto and focusing on those mature elements, themes, character arcs etc., the show has gone the other way generally and made the characters even more YA than they were even in the first book in some regards.


Cryptic0677

>The audience for the show seems to be non-book readers The issues with this show are not directly related to changes from the books, or rather they are but it isn't specifically because they changed things, it's that they are badly implemented. If this show is for non-readers (it has to be), then they did a really piss poor job of exposition on who these characters are, their motivations, and the worldbuilding. It's a bad sign when you need to add in quickly put together animated shorts to infodump lore that you need, but otherwise wouldn't get. My wife who has not read the books was initially intrigued but by the end told me she doesn't know really who the characters are besides Moiraine and maybe Nynaeve, and certainly doesn't care about them. And she wouldn't have understood many important things (like Rand's birth, it seems very random if you don't know the prophecies of the Dragon, or the flashback to LTT) unless I had been there explaining the backstory. I felt like I was having to explain key information to her that the show left out every couple minutes every single episode, and that is the enormous failing. They also really overplayed certain power levels here that just are going to hurt later payoffs. The healing Egwene did of Nynaeve is on the face of it fine but it will make the later things Nynaeve accomplishes way less impressive.


[deleted]

Nice write up OP, i largely agree, although for me episode 1 was worse than 8. Criticism is good, and i hope Rafe and co hear it and take some steps to address it while also improving other aspects of the show that fell a bit short. But i also think the show had some really good elements and I still believe it has the potential to be great. It sucks the last episode was a flop because it leaves a bad impression and will dominate any conversations around the show. But season 2 is coming and all we can do is hope its good. Theres a lot of hyperbolic doom and gloom around the show. I get it, but lets remember this is a series that survived Crossroads of Twilight. That book is straight up awful but in the grand scheme of things, its just a speedbump. Lets hope thats how we will look back on episodes 1 and 8 in a few years.


MrFiendish

I liked everything that was in the books, and disliked everything they added that was not in the books. I understand having to edit and adapt for visual media, but there were so many things they added that didn’t need to be in it, and so many things that would have been really cool that they left out. And I’m sorry, the mystery of who is the dragon reborn is just lame. It wasn’t even a mystery in the books.


csarmi

Not to you. We aren't really told what the dragon even is, and it's not clear at all that it would be one of our guys, let alone who.


gmredditt

I think this is an honest and accurate review even if I disagree on a few aspects. Thank you for posting it. I would recommend calling out the fight scene at the start of episode 7. This scene deservers awards. It's among the best fight scenes ever aired on television.


M3rr1lin

Omg yes. Thanks for pointing that out!


TheSwordThatAint

Your list has a lot of subjective statements listed as declarative.


M3rr1lin

Art is subjective, there is no right or wrong answer.


Deviate_Taco

I'd say the art school declining hitlers art was a wrong answer.....


account312

You only say that because you didn't see the atrocities he inspired after going to war with full command of his paintbrush.


neverfearbeginning

It was the right answer. Hitler's art wasn't good by academic standards. Do you seriously think it's the art school's fault that the Holocaust happened? Because that's what you're implying.


Deviate_Taco

What I said was a joke there mate. A bit of dark humor. I really hope you didn't take it that seriously.


qwerty8678

Honestly, on the point of constructive dialogue, it holds no purpose. It's two groups of people educating each other and showrunners going completely their way anyway. It's frankly tiring to see posts like this. No offense to OP intended. But there are 3 ways to look at it 1. You wanted the story in the books being told. I think we can all conclude that's not happening or is the intention. You have a right to be upset and you are getting the worst of the deal. Show is bad, and these forums have been terribly difficult to book readers wanting a faithful adaptation. 2. You have made peace the story is not similar but adaptation wise still ok..enjoy it if you like it. If you are unhappy, constructive talk is going to be of no help. 3. You have not read the books. No expectation on adaptation. Good bad, it's just a show. I am of the camp that if this show ends its wouldn't matter to me. If this show continues on in the way it is, people watching only the show are going to get a dilute and distorted version of WoT that is poorly handled. The possibilities for recovering are there but nothing in interview by show runners suggests they intend to change the course (of all things I have heard milking of egwene perrin, and affect of stilling/shielding on bond). Edit:. It is almost amusing here how quickly book lovers who find it hard to enjoy the show or find it a bad adaptation are downvoted here. The OP starts by talking about toxic behavior, but this discourse isn't changing anyone's mind as is obvious in this very discussion.


Ragna_rox

I globally agree with your review and the scores you give for the show pre and post episode 8. I'm a bit afraid for season 2 because they'll basically cover books 2 and 3, and I don't see how they'll do this while bettering the pacing. I'm still hopeful because I want the show to work, so we'll see how season 2 turns out.


M3rr1lin

Yeah I agree. I think in order to get pacing down they need to not try to do so much. Luckily a lot of TGH and TDR is walking around.


Squeekysquid

You said everything that I would have praised and everything I would've criticized, but better than I would've done.


xenya

Good post, and thank you for calling out the toxic behavior. It's something I've seen in show after show.. we get a show and it's not perfect so the fans tear it apart and then wonder why we didn't get another season. It has issues, but overall the show was good.


Gavorn

So far my biggest complaint is Rand keeping his bow strung at all times.


randsedai2

the average score for the show is 7.4 on imdb. If i had to rate the wheel of time book i would give it a 6/10 its the worst in the series for me. Ending is still confusing after 10 rereads and so many early bookisms happen that make 0 sense. Overall the show quality is on the level of the book. What does everyone else rate EOTW book?


M3rr1lin

I don’t thin it’s the worst one for me. It’s definitely on the lower end of the bell curve though. I’d probably say a 6.5-7/10. Basically the same as what I think of season 1 of the show.


artillarygoboom

I think maybe book 8 was the lowest rated book for me. If I'm remembering clearly. Could be wrong.


DearMissWaite

EOTW book is a solid 6 for me on re-reads. I loved it as a 12 year old, tho.


km1181

The bad: everything The good: nothing


DearMissWaite

You're always free not to watch!


Manofleisure75

Mostly agree with your assessment. For me the writing and editing are sub par for the money spent on the show. Ep1 and Ep8 (both written by Rafe....hmmmm) were the weakest for sure. They definitely need better writers for the show to be successful. The other thing was the pacing. This show really needs at least 10 eps to breathe and tell a coherent story. And hopefully use some more dialogue from the books!!! Not just the odd line here or there.


jak-o-shadow

Also, how small everything is. This is a huge world and cities have like 40 people at most in them. Taverns have maybe 10 people. Battles are way too small. LoTRs at least used cgi armies and it looked real. The engines are all made, they just need to use them.


drinkmorewatertoday

My main gripe and area for improvement is Loial. What is the point of having him if he doesn’t contribute anything but a small amount of exposition? Where did he go for Ep. 7? A 30 second shot of him and Rand in the library at Fal Dara, where he undoubtedly would be checking out their books, would tell me more about his character and confirm he’s still even there with the rest of the gang.


hunter00289

I'm pretty surprised I haven't heard more complaints about the softening of the magic system in general. I always felt that aside from culture building RJ's strongest point wad his Magix system creation. It's beautiful and interesting and unique but instead UT seems like rafe thought his audience was too dumb to understand it and that's a travesty and a huge point rafe should be docked on. Edit: personally the most frustrating thing in this show are theses no description explosions of "power" that don't seem to be any of the 5 that we know. I've heard people think it's balefire but if it is supposed to be it's not at all in amy way what is described in the books and saying it's balefire seems like a cheap excuse.


NoWingedHussarsToday

Is nobody going to mention how they changed entire situation when it comes to White Cloaks and Aes Sedai? WC are burning Aes Sedai left an right and nobody bats an eye? Even White Tower is basically "Oh well, it sucks but what can you do? Thank you for bringing back their rings, that was sweet of you, now let's talk about something else." How are we to believe Aes Sedai are these super powerful (in more than one sense) women when they can be simply seized and executed on a whim of some random thugs and reaction of their fellow Aes Sedai is "I'm glad that wasn't me." Personally that was the point where show started to go downhill for me.