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Northern_Wind_Pod

I think this is accurate. We see many times in the books that skilled female channelers can still react and counter male weaves even if they can't "see" them.


Orangarder

A fireball is the visual cue:). The weave behind it….


logicsol

The shield is visibly distorted by Logains weave. The books give examples of weaves being countered before they even form effects, Rand vs Lanfear has a ton of this. So in that light, there is more here to inform Karene that she should take action that the books require for such an action to be possible. And while Lanfear is certainly more experienced that Karene, her actions establish this is indeed possible.


Orangarder

Uhmmmmmm idk about that claim you make. It is rare that saidin vs saidar happens to start. When does rand fight with lanfear? And rand is LTT. The most senior aes sedai of all from a time when men and women channeled together (lanfear too). How does that equate to ‘modern day’ aes sedai with next to no practice?


Trevita17

When does Rand fight with Lanfear? Seriously? Re-read TSR and FoH. Edit: Furthermore, Saidin vs. Saidar happens all the time in the books, and I don't know how you can say Kerene Nagashi has next to no practice. If they keep the rest of her background except for her demise from the novel, she's about 200 years old in the "present day."


Orangarder

During a time when men are hunted down for channeling…. And yes. When do lanfear and rand actually fight? and pretty easy compared to those of the previous age.


Caidos101

I don’t know how to spoiler tag for all books but umm, spoilers AMOL. There’s an example in memory of light where two ashamaan are about to weave at I believe Pevera? And she blindly uses spirit to cut their weaves without seeing them. While yes saidar vs saidan isn’t happening every day, aes sedai still understand how weaves work.


Orangarder

Mhm. Yet not on the level of those from the age of legends. Like Rand and the forsaken. And since its important the flair says book spoilers allowed. Which until the founding of the black tower and all that, it is specifically mentioned how many ‘false dragons’ are popping up around rand. Which is a stark difference from before his birth when they were few and far between (false dragons being male channelers using saidin). So where does any current day green get such experience with so few to practice against? Not that it is impossible to secure victory. But the claim is it happens all the time….. which is false


jarockinights

Lanfear gives Rand a good lashing in FoH, and he can't do anything to her because she keeps cutting off his weaves. This is before he his memories really start to take hold. Regardless, Cadsuane is used to hunting down male channelers herself, and clear the Reds do it quite a bit. What we also know if that you just needs weaves of spirit to cut off the weaves from male or female, it's exactly the same. So since its the same, the Aes Sedai can practice on each other (which they undoubtedly do).


Orangarder

Off hand i do not recall lanfear and rand in foh. But that example strengthens my point. Lanfear is from the age of legends. And rand as you say (with my paraphrasing) is akin to an inexperienced tiger. When he really fights its by instinct and LTT taking over…. Which leads back to knowledge and experience. (They probably trained together as well….) Outside of ‘rediscovery’ of lost knowledge (like countering with pure spirit for anything) most counters were elemental counters. Air at fire? No water. Lightning? Earth to make lightning rod. Etc. It isn’t that they are incapable, it is just that mo matter how epic the scene looked…. She is no forsaken level. You say they can train. But do they do so blindded as they can only train against each other using saidar. Which both aes sedai can see. So they are effectively shadow boxing. There is a reason they sent numbers after a single man who can channel. Not just to hold the shield after.


onlypositivity

> During a time when men are hunted down for channeling Yeah, which she participates in, possibly making her the *best* person to predict and respond there.


bb_ibi

Yup. As head of the green ajah and one of the oldest / strongest aes sedai (on par with Cadsuane), it definitely makes sense that she manages to counter logain's attack.


Orangarder

Right. Which they mention didn’t happen often until shortly before rand declares himself. So like 6 months?


bb_ibi

Huh? No. Wtf. Its just that there are 3 false dragons around at the time Rand declares himself (Logain, Taim and the man in murandy). That absolutely doesn't mean that there weren't many other false dragons/male channelers in the 3000 years prior. After all this is why the red ajah exists! In order to hunt down these male channelers, they would've had to build up knowledge and skills/techniques to counter Saidin.


Orangarder

Rand declares himself in the third book


Orangarder

Like how many of y’all have only read the wiki? And not the books?


Trevita17

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 10, The Stone Stands: \[Books\]>!They fight during the trolloc attack in the Stone, pinning each other to the wall. !< The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 52, Choices: \[Books\] >!They fight on the docks in Cairhien. Rand tries to create a dome so their fight won't hurt anyone, and then she tries to torture Egwene and Aviendha until Rand says he'll never love one of the Forsaken, so she decides to kill him, and he comes up with ways to kill her, but he can't bring himself to kill a woman even if it is Lanfear, and finally Moiraine has to tackle her into the twisted door ter'angreal to put an end to it. !< At the start of the series, Kerene is the second strongest of the Greens behind Cadsuane, and the third strongest overall behind Cadsuane and Meilyn Arganya. We're not talking about her going up against a fully trained channeler from the AoL, we're talking about her going up against a man from the modern day who, while powerful, has had no training aside from what he can puzzle out on his own. Training matters in this universe. Did we even read the same books?


Orangarder

Mhmhm. And all of them get to realize how little they know about the power when the age of legends knowledge comes back. And 2 people having a tat is not the series rife with constant saidin-saidar battles. As I said. Hell its like one post above…


Trevita17

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about Kerene and Logain, both of whom have present day knowledge, not AoL knowledge. You specifically asked for examples of when Lanfear and Rand fought each other. Twice, you asked. I gave you textual evidence. As for Saidin vs. Saidar battles, it happens much more often than just those two instances. If you really don't believe me, I invite you to pick up the books. Considering how in-depth your knowledge of the series is, it should be like a whole new experience for you.


Orangarder

Do tell me. Who uses saidin against saidar? Rand uses saidin. Has a spat with lanfear. Book 4 and 5 yeah? Ok. That took a while. Or was nynaeve fighting Sammel… wait who was the forsaken in book 2. Oh right… not a male. It takes quite a while for the whole saidin-saidar thing. And when men and women work together they wonder why they didn’t do it sooner…. Because they can’t see each other’s weaves. And y’all started with arguing me, because i said ‘ a fireball is a visual cue. The weave behind it…..’ Then yall going on that blah blah karene is the bestest ever and the world is full of lots of saidin-saidar therefore, when your supporting evidence happens 3+books later and is between 2 of the many people. Before rand did the black tower stuff it was just him doin the saidin stuff. He made the amnesty for male channelers. And then after that by another what 4 books do we actually get to see more saidin on saidar action. And my claim was that there is not much of saidin saidar at the start. Too whoever said spirit was always used as a counter that was some bs too. Nynaeve learned it from moghedian(an age of legends channeler) at the end of… book 4. Arrives in salidar like the end of book 5 and finally starts teaching some stuff through book 6. Aes sedai were not on a one to one level with males. Hence why they took numbers with them. Mainly because they couldn’t see what to stop. Pick a fight and close your eyes…. The point isn’t that it is unobtainable to win, but do you ever need some advantages


axxl75

Yeah the showrunners confirmed in general that they couldn't see opposite weaves (mostly in regards to all the complaints of Logain seeing Nynaeves but this would also have been part of that). She is one of the most powerful channelers around and the leader of the Green Ajah; the Battle Ajah. We know from the books that channelers can fight people of the opposite sex including dodging and blocking their weaves so obviously it's possible to do what she did. She wouldn't likely have had as much practice as say a Red who specifically tries to go after men who can channel but she would be very knowledgeable about attack weaves. I think you're right and I think anyone who isn't dying to find a reason to hate the show is on board with the understanding that she could probably feel the weave bring pushed through. It's also not as if she perfectly blocked the attacks; she threw up huge walls and missed one coming at her. If she could see them then she would've just done the minimum necessary to block them and probably could've saved herself.


DanishPastry13

Agree. I feel it was also very reactionary and her reaction was to save the two who didn't catch the attack. Because she was also working on a shield up till she saw the flexing. I'm really appreciating the show more on my rewatch. I'm so nervous and divided on my first watch trying to relate it to the books. The second viewing I'm able to catch more and enjoy it more like a casual viewer.


excelsiorncc2000

>I think anyone who isn't dying to find a reason to hate the show is on board That was me. Until I actually started watching it. I'm a convert. I love it so much I'm willing to admit I had a trash outlook. This bit is actually not a problem for me, at all. My problem is that physical axes can apparently breach shields, which makes no sense on either a book or TV level. I love the show enough to let it go, but it may be the biggest deviation yet.


axxl75

Luckily then then the axe thing isn’t an issue. The shield is against the weaves not a physical one; it’s not a physical shield in the books either. It breaching the shield isn’t a problem. Logain was fighting against the shield and it wasn’t locked I yet which is also something that happens in the books. Maybe not in this exact way but we do know that you can resist a shield being placed on you in a back and forth struggle. The way they did it visually worked for TV and honestly wasn’t different from the books anyway. Logain couldn’t touch the axes with the power until they breached the shield at such point he could use them as a conduit through which to reach outside of the shield. While this isn’t explicitly shown in a book scene, it also isn’t shown that this would be impossible. Him only being able to touch the axes after they come into the shield makes sense. He wasn’t shielded yet (we saw what that looked like earlier in the episode) so he was still able to channel.


logicsol

> My problem is that physical axes can apparently breach shields, which makes no sense on either a book or TV level. I love the show enough to let it go, but it may be the biggest deviation yet. Check the last 3 photos [here](https://imgur.com/a/q5fE3vN) I originally thought they were making shields physical, but after watching closely you can see it goes through the shield, but is blocked by Logain's weave. Edit: [Slow-mo Video version](https://streamable.com/nhdz84)


excelsiorncc2000

The shield shouldn't block the axes. It doesn't exist on the physical level. The axes should go right through - and kill Logain. But the axes shouldn't be slowed by the shield, and then breach it. Logain can't make weaves until the shield is gone.


logicsol

I'd agree with you if Logain was fully shielded, but he isn't here. Watch the scene when Moiraine and Liandrin switch off shields. Moiraine's shield fully settles into his skin before Liandrin releases hers. That's how the show indicates a shield is fully in place. Any time the shielding is actually visible, like in the scene with Logain, the shield is *not in place* but currently settling or being contested. This allows Logain to channel to an extent, with his weaves contained inside the shield. This is different from the books, but it seems to be their attempt to visually represent the fight between shieldee and shielder. They need some way make that internal fight visual, and this seems to be it. So you get the shield neither stopping or slowing the axes, because it's not physical. The Axes do go right through it. They just don't kill him because he does have a weave out. He is not just holding Saidin, but wielding it to fight the shielding and stop the axes.


excelsiorncc2000

That's not really how shields work. It isn't possible to contain a weave within a shield, because shields cut a person off from the True Source. I'm willing to accept some deviation from the book material for the show, because the show is largely very good. But the axes don't matter, either way. Either they go through the shield, which is fine. Or they go through the shield and stop at Logain's weave that can't exist, which is still fine. At least so far as they can't let Logain out. Or they're stopped by the shields, which makes no sense but at least doesn't create a contradiction. The problem is that they pass through the shields, which they should. Then they pass through a Logain weave that has no justification for even existing. But then they break the shields, which violates both ideas. Do they exist with respect to shields, or don't they?


logicsol

>Then they pass through a Logain weave that has no justification for even existing This does not happen. I don't mean the latter half of your sentence, but that the axes do not go through the his weaves. His weave stops the axes. >But then they break the shields The axes don't break the shield. He does something, who knows exactly what, to the axes from inside the shield. The shield breaks from what appear to be combined shock from the shrapnel and a push of effort from Logain, similar to how he broke the shield originally. It seems like it's using pretty consistent logic. A bit different from the books but internally consistent so far. Edit: I'll see if I can find a clip that illustrates this better than the picture. Edit2: [Zoomed in and 1/3 speed](https://streamable.com/nhdz84)


Cosmic_Dong

I think they have to change some things, some things just don't translate very well to the screen like "struggling to reach the source" for example. What I happened here was that Logain was already holding the power and the shield wasn't fully formed / settled yet. To visualise the struggle of shielding/being shielded I would assume that in the show they made it so that weaves still exist "within" the shield before it is fully in place. If this is the case, the scene/episode is logically consistent.


CheMoveIlSole

It's much better to stop extrapolating from the books to what the show is trying to do. We have to take the show at face value. Logain is clearly able to channel within a shield of saidar. He isn't reaching for the Source, per the books. He is able to access it and push against a shield. Shields, in the show, are broken with enough force. How much? We don't know. I don't think the show thought all that much about these details because they are unimportant to the show. When we get to a certain box, if we get there, I have no doubt a certain person will be constrained by a lot more women. That'll be enough to make the show consistent with its own logic.


DanishPastry13

Fyi I have read and love all the books.


Dicksz

I'm pretty sure it was mostly show convenience but she should still 100% be able to see the holes he punched and intuit what is happening


logicsol

There is actually a visual cue that she could see. I made a little album a bit back to (lightly)cover this from a book mechanic perspective. [Take a look](https://imgur.com/a/q5fE3vN) Edit: a note I didn't think was needed. The first 2 images are Karene related, the last 3 images cover a different topic. You should be paying attention to the first 2.(though the last 3 are neat too)


DanishPastry13

This is my first post here long time lurker. Love that you saw that and posted it. It just hit me on the rewatch. Didn't catch logain actually stopping the blades inside the shield.


AuditAndHax

Good breakdown. My only disagreement is that the "residue of saidar" is more likely just saidin with the corruption scraped off. It makes sense because there's no visual difference between them in the show (other than the taint) and we know from Winter's Heart that saidar can act like a sieve and scrape the taint off saidin.


DanishPastry13

I dont think she sees the spears at all just that the shield is being flexed and she anticipates Logains attack thats why she throws the wall out there.


logicsol

That is a possibility, though in that case I would argue that there may be an interference pattern as they react to each that could be noticable. That said, I don't think it's likely because the weave of saider being pushed through is a flat plane perpendicular to Logain's weave. I would think the weaves would need to be at a sharp angle, like a wood shaver's blade.


AuditAndHax

Picture it this way: Have you ever seen those cheap kitchen knives that have different colored blades? They're actually steel blades with a powdered enamel coating that's not as durable as real metal. That means, if you take one and stab it straight into a tin can (a flat plane perpendicular to the blade), then pull the blade out, you'll pull out a plain steel blade where the tin has scraped away the coating. Same with saidin/saidar. Logain's weave forces it's way through, but the corruption is scraped off. It doesn't have to be at an angle because it's more about the relative hardness of the materials (Source>DO)


logicsol

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree with it working that way. If it did, I'd expect SOME indication at some point in the series that the Taint was noticeably affected by opposing weaves of Saidar. The *only* time this occurs is during the WH events. >Same with saidin/saidar. Logain's weave forces it's way through, but the corruption is scraped off. It doesn't have to be at an angle because it's more about the relative hardness of the materials (Source>DO) The books give evidence that it's the other way around. Book 2, The tainted wound sucks in and absorbs the OP weaves sent at it. Technically, the True Power and the True Source should be on par with each other. Both Saidin and Saidar are one rung down. That's why I think that's(the scrape) a reasonable explanation when angled, or setup to cut, but not for a perpendicular push through. Like a sheet of paper, pushing through it will cause little more than *maybe* some abrasion, but the edge of it will cut if held at the right angle in the right way. I think it's the same here. Ofc, the show could be different, but I don't think that's what is at work in this scene.


randomguy0101001

Nice observation.


CheMoveIlSole

You didn’t include stills of her actual impalement. It wasn’t from an axe shard.


logicsol

That's because the axe part is a different scene. This album was made ~2 weeks ago to cover two different questions about the sequence. Only the First two images are related to the Karene scene.


CheMoveIlSole

The thread is about Kerene seeing Logain’s weave. You said “she sees a visual cue”. The visual cue you reference cannot be used to justify Kerene anticipating Logain’s attack.


doomgiver98

Did you read the captions?


chromeshiel

The visual clue is the distorted saidar being pierced in three spots. Something that could easily be missed but Kerene is an experienced green Aes Sedai, so her battle instinct should be unmatched.


CheMoveIlSole

No, that doesn't work. Kerene doesn't just anticipate exploding shrapnel. If she did, why wouldn't she, as experienced as you say she is, create a wall of air between herself and Logain? She sees a specific attack of the Power against her sisters and defends them. She sees Logain's weaves and reacts to that.


chromeshiel

I mean, we are all speculating. You're free to interpret it any way you like. But to answer your question, she saw or sensed an attack; just too late to defend adequately. Out of time, she instinctively protected the others at the expense of herself. Knowingly? Unknown.


CheMoveIlSole

That's a problem, though, don't you think? Should we be speculating about something that we know from the books is pretty important to the world dynamics?


DarkPhilosopher_Elan

Why do you think anyone is talking about shrapnel? You seem to be the only one bringing that up.


CheMoveIlSole

Because posters aren't distinguishing between what anyone can physically see and what someone who wields the Power can see (e.g. physical objects versus weaves of the power). You're right...people seem to be at a loss with respect to the difference


DarkPhilosopher_Elan

You are the only person mentioning or speaking about physical objects in here. Everyone else is talking about the shield of Saidar the parent poster [linked](https://i.imgur.com/EUQ3cSf.png). You are having a conversation only you are privy too.


CheMoveIlSole

You're right: I'm trying to answer the OP's original post. Did Kerene see saidin or not. Everyone else is talking about the shield of saidar but they aren't talking about why Kerene reacts the way she does. The other posters are making assumptions about what we, as viewers, clearly see but we cannot know what Kerene sees. From our perspective, we see something like spears of saidin piercing the shield. So, what does Kerene see? Posters defending the show contend that she doesn't see anything at all. She only senses something piercing the shield. Here's the problem: why does she react the way she does then? Why does she shield her sisters, in a specific way, but not a more general shield of air that would have protected all of them? Do you know? What's your answer to that little problem?


logicsol

The first two images display 2 different visual cues from right before Karene is staked. One is the Saidar shield being distorted, the other is a potential layer of saider over the spike as they are first made.


CheMoveIlSole

She sees saidin (the male half of the Power) formed into a spike hurtling toward her and her sisters. She creates a shield of Creator-only-knows-what to defend against that attack at the cost of her own life. If it was simply shrapnel she was defending against why wouldn't she just throw a wall of air against it? I think you know why.


logicsol

What are you talking about? Did you just skip over the first 2 topical images and focus on the other 3 that aren't relevant to this discussion?


TH3_R3D_QU33N

I don't get the impression they're interested in the discussion, as much as pushing their opinion about it.


CheMoveIlSole

Obviously, we're talking past one another. Be well.


logicsol

If you keep focusing on aspects you've been told aren't part of discussion, then yes, that will tend to happen.


CheMoveIlSole

Because you're eliding gaps in your argument. But, fine. Have it your way.


Equivalent-Tiger-636

Wouldn’t she recognize the shields bulging and even being broken? She may not see what he’s doing but she definitely knows he’s doing something. I’ve never been a fan of the men and women not being able to see the others channeling, I kind of wished they’d change that. I think it works make for more dynamic and epic battles with the one power.


DanishPastry13

That's exactly what im saying. My post may be confusing being its so far after the episode played. I was just giving a reason why she could predict his attack. Seeing as so many people were attacking the scene. I disagree I love the little things rand uses to tell women are channelling and the aes sedai never putting it together.


Equivalent-Tiger-636

Duh, you totally said that. I missed that for some reason.


thelastevergreen

I've seen 2 theories on this that I can agree with. 1. She wasn't seeing his weaves. She was seeing/feeling their weaves reacting to his weave and knew it was about to break. 2. He was manifesting large projectiles of shadowy magic energy... similarly to how Moiraine manifested a fireball....so she could see the physical projectile. Both work fine for me.


rwv

She’s a cannon fodder character that is inserted into the Eye of the World story to show exposition about Warder bonds, shielding channelers, to establish channeling strength tiers, and to a lesser extent foreshadowing for a future scene that involves a box. They have made good use establishing non-book characters and then sacrificing them for the overall benefit of the story. The fact that Kerene has a mention in the prequel novel (and that’s basically it) says the showrunners respect the existing literature, but are willing to adapt as needed to accomplish their storytelling goals.


_scholar_

Kerene doesn't see Logains weave, she sees wear their weaves on the shield are breaking first


DanishPastry13

thats what I meant. I made the thread. I think she just sees the shield being pushed and guesses that its logain attacking.


CatsEye_Fever

In my perspective, she sees the metal becoming compromised and knows it's likely Logain preparing a counterstrike.


DanishPastry13

I personally think its her actually seeing the shield being pierced and seeing the attack coming. ​ edit: i know she doesnt see the actual weave logain makes just its effect on the female weave.


CatsEye_Fever

Yes, this. You explained it better.


usernamedstuff

Ah, okay, I was going back and forth on this one, but the bulging makes sense. Good catch.


Hey_look_new

> it seems to me she just predicts his reaction and saves the two sisters still focused on shielding him. I think we have to assume that's what it was. the way it was presented was problematic (imo), just like Logain's exclamation that Nynaeve blazed like the sun... I would rather have had the VFX show her kind of slicing a wide path to sever the weaves, if that makes sense


CheMoveIlSole

Here’s the problem: she anticipates a specific attack against Moiraine and Liandrin. Why not guess that the attack was directed at the roof of the cave? Or the floor? Or only against herself? Just a lucky guess right? One that coincidentally results in her death. Oh well, guess that happened. No, the simple explanation is they needed to kill her off to enrage Liandrin and justify Logain’s stilling in that episode specifically. It’s shitty ends justify the means plotting.


rollingForInitiative

>Here’s the problem: she anticipates a specific attack against Moiraine and Liandrin. Why not guess that the attack was directed at the roof of the cave? Or the floor? Or only against herself? Just a lucky guess right? One that coincidentally results in her death. Oh well, guess that happened. Kerene is an old, experience powerful Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah. In the books, she's also one of the most respected and experienced Aes Sedai, so it makes sense that she'd have significant experience in combat. If she was in command over this mission, it likely wasn't her first rodeo. So she probably estimated the direction of the attack from the way Logain's weaves were pushing out. Combat instincts based on experience. His weaves very obviously pointed in the directions they were shooting - their own weave was pushed out a lot. We know that it's perfectly possible for women to fight men who can channel, and to guess or estimate where their weaves will be. Pevara managed to out-duel two Asha'man on her own, and Kerene is significantly stronger. She probably either couldn't spare the Power to shield all three of them, or thought she'd be able to but didn't have time.


CheMoveIlSole

No, that doesn't work. She anticipates a specific attack. It's not merely a matter of direction. As I have said in other replies, the roof above her is in the same direction. So is the floor beneath her. She clearly saw a specific attack and reacted to it by protecting her sisters. She sees spikes of, presumably air compressed by the power, flying toward the three of them. If it was a generalized reaction, why not create a wall of air between herself, her sisters, and Logain? You know why. The show needed to kill of Kerene in order to enrage Liandrin. Your book excuse also doesn't work. In the books, opposite sex channelers cannot see specific attacks against each other. They use generalized tactics in one on one combat. They slash weaves. They shield. They attack each other's physical location. In other words, absolutely the opposite of what we saw in the show. It's a cheap trick to get to a desired result. An unnecessary one at that.


rollingForInitiative

>No, that doesn't work. She anticipates a specific attack. It's not merely a matter of direction. As I have said in other replies, the roof above her is in the same direction. So is the floor beneath her. What, no? The spears that burst out of the shield aren't pointed upwards, they're pointed towards Moiraine, Liandrin and Kerene. They burst straight outwards, towards their targets. You can see this very clearly if you actually look. You can also see that she creates a rather large shield to protect - you can see a very large shimmering from it going far above Moiraine and Liandrin, so even if the spears were aimed higher, they'd hit the shield. >If it was a generalized reaction, why not create a wall of air between herself, her sisters, and Logain? That's *exactly* what she did? Except it seems she wasn't fast enough to cover everyone. But there is literally a wall of (presumably) Air that she uses to block the attacks. >Your book excuse also doesn't work. In the books, opposite sex channelers cannot see specific attacks against each other. They use generalized tactics in one on one combat. They slash weaves. They shield. They attack each other's physical location. In other words, absolutely the opposite of what we saw in the show. None of Kerene's tactics relied on seeing the weaves. She created a shield to block on attack. She guessed where he would attack, just like Pevara guessed where she could cut Asha'man weaves. Just the way you say they fight. Obviously they planned to have her killed, but how is that bad? She died a realistic death, fighting a man who can channel.


CheMoveIlSole

> The spears that burst out of the shield aren't pointed upwards What are the spears Kerene sees made of? What does she **see**?


s50cal

She sees the Shielding weave of Saidar being distorted as if a spear of Saidin was trying to burst through in the direction of the Aes Sedai


CheMoveIlSole

And her reaction is what? She doesn't know where those spears are being directed. Only that they are presumably being directed at all of the sisters present. So, why does she react the way she does? Is she fighting a shard of power wrought air? Why not throw a general shield of air against it that protects everyone? What if she's fighting something she perceives as a shard of the Power itself? Can you tell the difference based on the show alone? You can't and if you say you can we have a more foundational problem.


widget1321

>And her reaction is what? She doesn't know where those spears are being directed. Only that they are presumably being directed at all of the sisters present. Do me a favor. Go get a blanket or something. Then put your hand under it and poke a finger at it, pushing it out a bit. Can you see your finger? Can you tell basically what direction it's pointed at? If you are accurately doing what I'm describing, the answers should be "no" and "yes" respectively. That's how she knows where **something** is going. Now, since the person trapped in the shield is a man who can channel, her reaction is going to be based on the assumption that he's channeling something in that general direction. So she throws up some kind of shield to protect against some sort of force. All a perfectly reasonable reaction. She obviously failed to get enough up to protect herself in time, but got enough to protect the others. She didn't know exactly what was coming out exactly where, but she knew it was something likely channeled in their general direction.


CheMoveIlSole

> She obviously failed to get enough up to protect herself in time, but got enough to protect the others. Nope. We were on the same page until you wrote this sentence. This is exactly where you are making a leap in logic. Assuming Kerene cannot see saidin, all she knows is that the shield is being pierced. Not what kind of attack follows thereafter. Even if she assumes its a spike of...something...why doesn't she throw a general shield in front of her to protect against that force? Why does she specifically throw shields to protect her sisters instead? The honest answer is that this is where the show fucks up. It could be that she failed to protect herself in time. It could be that she saw saidin directed at her sisters. It could be...ad infinitum. To get where you are you have to make assumptions. I completely agree that those assumptions are valid possibilities. The problem is that they are not the only possibilities. You absolutely cannot rule out, based on what you yourself wrote, that Kerene actually saw saidin based on her reaction alone.


widget1321

Wait... Is part of your problem that she protected her sisters and not herself? I did make a slight assumption, yes. I assumed she was trying to protect all 3. It could also be that she didn't have to ability to get a shield up to protect all 3 and chose to protect the other two. Or she misjudged where/what direction the "whatever" was coming through the shield and only thought she needed to protect them. Or something else. And is the rest of your problem that you can't absolutely 100% say that she can't see them from that one scene? Of course you can't, that's true. You also can't 100% say any of a number of other things didn't happen that wouldn't make sense based on what the show has told us. The show has already said women can't see men's weaves. The show provided a visual cue for how she saw something happening to react to. Did it also need to explicitly say that in this instance she couldn't see the weaves? Will it need to do that every time a man weaves around a woman or vice versa in order for your to not assume that? The only reason to assume she could see his weaves is if you assume the worst. Do you also assume every Aes Sedai is lying? The show isn't perfect, but that's no reason to invent problems where they don't exist. Karene easily could have reacted the way she did without seeing his weaves, which follows the rules and logic the show has already established, so why assume the show has just decided to ignore that rule in this case?


rollingForInitiative

>What are the spears Kerene sees made of? What does she > >see > >? She sees or feels the shield of saidar bending, just like we see it bending and bursting in a specific direction. She presumably also feels that something is passing through it, and in which direction.


CheMoveIlSole

If you want to read my other posts I go into why this particular train of thought doesn't work. To summarize: "we see" saidar bending from a neutral viewpoint (e.g. not Kerene's viewpoint). We see shards piercing the shield. **We don't know what Kerene sees**. We have to interpret what she sees through her reaction because that is how the show chose to film the scene. That is a serious problem. This problem is then compounded by Logain's vision of Nynaeve's channeling. The show implies, in both cases, that saidar and saidin can be seen by channelers of the opposite sex.


rollingForInitiative

>We don't know what Kerene sees > >. We have to interpret what she sees through her reaction because that is how the show chose to film the scene. We know exactly what she sees. She can see the weave of *saidar* bending and bursting. She cannot see his weaves, because they commented on it in a previous scene. But seeing and presumably also feeling (since she's holding part of the weave) means that she can guess the direction. If you bring up Logain we even know officially what that was about because they even mentioned it: Logain could see the physical effects that Nynaeve created, not her weaves or *saidar* glow. She really does create actual light, because you can see the normal effects of a bright light on both Liandrin, Moiraine and Logain, including shadows from it. So no, none of it implies that you can see opposite sex weaves. I will give you that especially as a book reader the Logain scene is a bit confusing, since we know about the glow around women when they channel, but the show hasn't actually displayed the glow of saidar in that way.


CheMoveIlSole

You assume she cannot see his weaves. We don’t know that based on the camera perspective. What we know as neutral viewers is her reaction…which implies she sees saidin. Furthermore, your Logain explanation is after the fact clean up work by the show runners because the show itself is confusing. If you only watch the show, if that’s all you have to go on, you need to be honest with yourself about what you are assuming and what **you know** based on what the show itself presents to you. Indeed, the show **tells us** women cannot see saidin. It then **shows us** two scenes that seem to contradict that statement. Show vs. tell. I hope that helps. Your latter statement is spot on though and I think goes to the heart of the show’s problem: it is interested in aesthetics over narrative cohesion. Nynaeve needed a dramatic reveal, apparently, so we get a scene foreshadowed by Moiraine. Why do this? Does it advance Logain’s plot? Or Nynaeve’s plot. Was the visual trick necessary for that movement? No, it wasn’t.


rollingForInitiative

>You assume she cannot see his weaves. We don’t know that based on the camera perspective. What we know as neutral viewers is her reaction…which implies she sees saidin. No, we know because they stated outright earlier in the episode that women cannot see men's weaves. At this point I can only assume that you think the shield around Logain is made of *saidin*, since that's the only weave she needs to see or feel to guess what's coming. But it's actually made of *saidar*, by Kerene, Moiraine and Liandrin. >Furthermore, your Logain explanation is after the fact clean up work by the show runners because the show itself is confusing. No, they clarified a scene that was a bit obscure (yes, they could absolutely have made it more obvious what was happening). But if you actually look at it, you can see that Nynaeve's light actually creates shadows. So it's a visible light, not some sort of mystical aura that channelers can see. She created actual light, visible to anyone. Look, if you're so intent on disliking the show that you see things that aren't there, as others have explained again and again, I don't think there's a point to keep discussing this. I hope you come around so you can watch the show without such and extreme bias against it.


theCroc

Why on earth would Logain send his weave into the roof when he has three hostile Aes Sedai he needs to neutralize before they get the shield back on him? And before backup arrives. He was on the clock and had to be very direct. Kerene knew he was trying to take them out and acted accordingly. She also knew that the moment she diverts strength to place an air shield in front of them he would break through her part of the shield. Which he did, killing her.


CheMoveIlSole

Does the floor make more sense to you? It seems like you're being pedantic now. How about the walls? You pick any logical attack and ask yourself why Kerene couldn't have anticipated that as well. >She also knew that the moment she diverts strength to place an air shield in front of them he would break through her part of the shield. She knows that how? What information in the episode clues you into that detail? Because, where I'm standing, Kerene's **death**, and her sister's becoming unconscious, is what causes Logain to be able to break his shield. I won't even get into his ability to affect the axe at all (another idiocy).


tovarishchi

Why would anything make more sense than attacking directly at the aes Sedai in front of him?


NinjaJehu

I feel like if someone is casting in their general direction and they can't see the attack the safest and most reactionary option is to protect the front. As for the shield break, if they were barely holding him already then it makes sense she would assume that diverting any of that effort away from the shield would result in him breaking through. If anything, it feels like a mix of combat experience and luck. You could absolutely be correct in it being a case of lazy writing. But if fans are finding a way to rationalize it to make it more enjoyable then good for them. And I really don't think it's that much of a stretch.


CheMoveIlSole

You're right: but she doesn't do that right? She specifically throws a shield over her two sisters. She doesn't react like you would expect if you can't see an attack: a general defense trying to protect as much of the space in front of you as you can (e.g. a blast, or a general shield, of air). To your latter point: that's fine. It works for them. I suspect damn near anything will for the Dedicated.


NinjaJehu

>I suspect damn near anything will for the Dedicated. That got a chuckle outta me.


CheMoveIlSole

I try to be clever ;)


CheMoveIlSole

How about the ground beneath them? Or the walls next to them? You know why. Also, you're making excuses about how show logic works vis a vis shielding. Kerene "knows" that throwing a wall of air in front of them will cause Logain's shield to be overcome by him? **How do you know that**? The show is pretty clear: a channeler can break a shield by exerting enough Power against it (unlike the books, I might add). It is not clear, at all, to what extent Logain's exertion is sufficiently contained by Kerene, Moiraine, and Liandrin or not.


AuditAndHax

>The show is pretty clear: a channeler can break a shield by exerting enough Power against it (unlike the books, I might add). In the books, you absolutely **can** break through a shield with enough effort. I seem to recall one scene where someone tries to shield Rand and he brushes it off like nothing. I believe the description used was the shield "burst into tatters" or something like that. Not from a weave, just from him reaching for the Power. You can also stop a shield of Spirit with your own weave of Spirit. What do you think was happening in the Nynaeve/Moghedien battle? They were having a metaphysical arm wrestling match with weaves of Spirit. The problem you're running into is the disconnect between visual and non-visual medium. The books have a way of separating physical "force" from non-visual "effort." In the books, channelers can fight shields by "pulling harder" on the Source or "drawing deeper." Touching the power has no visual indicator, so how exactly is the show supposed to express this? Just have the actors make scrunched up "concentration" faces? That would just look like everyone's constipated 😜 Showing Logain's weave try to break through the shield is the best alternative. We see he's channeling but struggling to break free. We see the Aes Sedai are struggling to contain him. We **see it**, which is exactly what we want from a television show. For the sake of a visual medium, all internal, non-visual activities are going to have to become visual in some way or another. Sure, it might present a little confusion. Was he trying to break through with spikes of Air, or was that a representation of his grasping for saidin? Maybe they were spikes of Spirit woven *with* Air, so it was a little bit of both. Either way, we got to see it, so that's pretty fucking cool.


SageOfTheWise

I mean she guesses the attack comes in the direction the holes in her shield are burst through.


theCroc

And also its the logical direction. Any attack would be to neutralize the three channelers trying to shield him. Any other direction would just be wasting strength and making himself more vulnerable.


CheMoveIlSole

The roof above her head is in the same direction. The floor beneath her is too. Ditto for the walls on either side of her. She anticipated a specific attack.


SageOfTheWise

What do you mean? One is upward, one is downward, the walls are to the sides.. Bolts ripping through the shield upward or downward would be different directions than the forward direction they went. I mean yes, she anticipated the simplest most straight forward thing, that the attack would continue in a straight direction. If the attack had curved last second maybe they'd all be dead.


CheMoveIlSole

Bolts of what? Bolts that Kerene isn't supposed to be able to see? Or, are you talking about shards from the axe? If you are talking about those, physical objects she can see, **why did she not throw a shield of air between herself, her sisters, and Logain**? She obviously sees saidin, in a specific attack, hurtling toward them.


SageOfTheWise

The bolts of saiden. Yes she can't see or sense the bolts, but she can sense the holes they're making through her shield. That's my point. Same way you don't need to be able to see a bullet to be able to see a bullet hole and know that a hole aiming downward means the bullet didn't go to the ceiling.


CheMoveIlSole

Do you see what you are doing? You are filling in gaps. How do you know any of that simply by watching the show? By just watching the show, it is just as likely that Kerene sees the weaves of saidin themselves. At best, you're guessing. That's a problem narratively for the show. You shouldn't have to guess at all. You shouldn't have to fill in any gaps.


SageOfTheWise

>By just watching the show, it is just as likely that Kerene sees the weaves of saidin themselves. How? Why? Here is what the show already established by this point. Women can see Saidar, women can not see Saidin. Then they they show us, [directly on screen](https://i.imgur.com/isT30Ca.png), how the Sadin causes the Saidar to stretch in a way that shows exactly what is happening even to the women who can't see the Saidin. What am I making up? What are the gaps? Why is it just as logical from this scene that Kerene see's Saidin, when its already established that can't be true, and not at all needed to explain anything?


CheMoveIlSole

We see that from the viewpoint of the watcher. The gaps you are filling are what Kerene sees, or what Logain sees, or literally anyone that wields the Power. The show doesn't give us their perspective...it implies their perspective. It either isn't important to the writers/directors or they do a piss poor job of helping viewers understand what the characters are actually seeing.


s50cal

Bro this was all fairly obvious from the first watch, you're the only one making it complicated


CheMoveIlSole

Bro, no.


jay_dar

You don't wanna be wrong we get it, but based off the evidence shown you probably are. It's ok


CheMoveIlSole

I'm sorry but that doesn't explain why she casts a shield of...air?power?...to protect Moiraine and Liandrin but cannot do so more generally to protect them all. The most logical answer is not just that she sensed bolts of saidin piercing the shield. It's that she **saw the bolts of saidin directed toward her sisters**.


theCroc

But why would he be attacking the roof or the floor?


CheMoveIlSole

Because the Sisters are standing on it or beneath it. In other words, he could attack them in any number of ways.


doomgiver98

The show has plenty of things to criticize but here you're just looking for things to hate. You know female Channelers can fight male channelers in the book right?


CheMoveIlSole

You know that female channelers and male channelers don't fight directly against each other in the books right? You know that they don't react to specific attacks by the opposite sex because they can't see the specific weaves the opposite sex creates. Don't believe me? Google is your friend.


[deleted]

idk, how did Lanfear cut through Rand's weaves when she confronted him in book 5?


CheMoveIlSole

Lanfear was the most powerful female channeler anyone knows of, she lived for hundreds of years, fought in the War of Power, and certainly would have been able to ward off a clumsy attack from Rand by simply cutting his weaves. You know what she didn't do? Create a shield of air anticipating a specific attack from Rand that she couldn't see. Has Kerene ever fought a male channeler? Does she know how to cut threads of saidar? Did she guess a specific attack or did she "see" that attack and defend against it? You're filling in gaps to justify the result you want if you watched that episode and honestly believe Kerene did anything but see an attack and defend against that specific attack.


[deleted]

> You're filling in gaps to justify the result you want Youre doing the same thing. It doesnt seem like that much of a stretch that she anticipated his attack and threw a counter out in the most likely spot to block it. Its clearly established in the books female channelers can fight and defend against saidin even if they can't see it. I really dont think this was as big of a problem as you are making it out to be.


CheMoveIlSole

>Its clearly established in the books female channelers can fight and defend against saidin even if they can't see it. I really dont think this was as big of a problem as you are making it out to be. Give me a specific example from the books where a female channeler, or a male channeler, sees a specific attack from the opposite sex and defends against that specific attack. You won't find it. What you will find is opposite sex channelers slashing weaves of the Power *before they turn into the specific attack*.


[deleted]

Again, i just dont think this is a huge deal. Its a minor break in lore at worst that doesn't change anything crucial to the story. Slashing invisible weaves isnt something i see working out well on screen.


CheMoveIlSole

It probably isn't a big deal in the show. At some point, opposite sex channelers won't be able to see each other's weaves and it will make sense for that particular episode. But, it's emblematic of the problems this show is running into already. They didn't need to create this problem at all. They could have kept the book lore intact by simply having Logain blow up the floor beneath their feet. Or the walls next to them. Instead, they went for a cheap aesthetic that is visually interesting but undermines the plot. We see this again a few minutes after when Logain seemingly sees Nynaeve channeling. Or was it a light effect she created? Who knows!? You can't know simply by watching the show...that's for damn sure.


[deleted]

I understand where you are coming from. Personally these kinds of minor lore breaks dont bother me in of themselves, i was expecting a lot of these kinds of changes. But i get it.


CheMoveIlSole

Same but what I expect is for the show to adhere to its own internal logic. If women can't see saidin, and vice versa, the show needs to keep to that. Instead, it seems like we have two separate scenes that are done for visual effect only breaking what the show previously told us within the span of a single episode. If it is unimportant to the show logic, and story, then so be it. But, if it turns out to be important (as it is in the books) then I have a serious problem with these breaks. Regardless, thank you for your thoughtful replies.


Lleland

Story beats are written first and characters' actions are written to match rather than characters being developed and the story flowing from how they actually would act. It's already led to several contradictory moments.


Raiden32

Not really, but ok. It can contradict the book all it wants, it clearly is only using it as a reference and that’s fine, because the series is extremely entertaining in its own right. “It’s already led to several contradictory moments” Name even a few, and leave the books out of it.


Lleland

Good news, there's actually a video linked in this post that does just that! You could click it and see her examples instead of baiting someone. I am indeed referring to the show's characters contradicting their own actions/previous characterization outside the confines of the books. Off the top of my head, how about in this episode we see Moiraine very easily capably dodging the question from Egwene and putting an Aes Sedai truth to her answer yet she's somehow utterly incapable of doing the same when Liandrin questions her failing to execute her Blue duties? There is no reason for her to say "I cannot say" when she could have twisted the words (or even told a full truth! "I was looking for ta'veren and look now we have Nyn"). Was she flustered for some reason or was it just a story beat? In the last, how about Valda plainly asking Eggy if she's AS and noting that AS can't lie but not having the presence of mind to ask Moiraine the same? Did he think this small band of travelers would be able to resist this whole band of Whitecloaks when he's already been shown as capably dealing with AS or was it just a story beat? What about Moiraine's voiceover in the preview talking about the foolishness of LTT and company trying to seal the Dark One but now taking the EF5 to the EotW with them having no training and little talent? Has something happened that sped up the timeline despite traipsing about the tower for days which necessitates their immediate leaving or is it just a story beat? And that's just recent episodes, not to speak of the rushed mess that was E1 having EF5 go from suspicious/fearful to "yeah sure we'll go with you without any protest or asking for further answers" then back to "no we're not going any further because....well because we need to inject some drama that we forgot before!" [The crazy thing is this opinion wasn't shunned](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/qxcvni/bad_writing_is_the_shows_main_problem/) before the powers that be decided criticism of the show was just beating a dead horse, but somehow this sub as a whole has been blindly overlooking real critique as "well it can't be the books!" It doesn't need to be the books, but it should be good. Obviously things need to be cut, but those cut things shouldn't be important character elements in favor of otherwise meaningless backstory, as exampled in Bianca's latest vid where we have more time with Siuan and her father than Rand and his.


Serafim91

>In the last, how about Valda plainly asking Eggy if she's AS and noting that AS can't lie but not having the presence of mind to ask Moiraine the same? Did he think this small band of travelers would be able to resist this whole band of Whitecloaks when he's already been shown as capably dealing with AS or was it just a story beat? 1. His comment was sarcastic. 2. \[Books\]>!There's about 1600 Aes Sedai in the whole world, and half of them in Tar Valon, do you expect him to go around asking every woman if she's Aes Sedai? How many Aes Sedai do you think he comes across in a month of traveling? how about a year? It makes no sense for him to suspect she's Aes Sedai!< 3. Moiraine says they are going to whitebridge. A month later, coincidentally about how long it takes to walk there, Egwene is near tar valon. This means they lied in the first statement and it's suspicious enough for some questions.


CheMoveIlSole

It's amazing how many people in this thread don't understand that. They simply want the show to be great...the best really...so they will justify anything they see by filling in gaps. It's astounding, really.


Lleland

Heh, even here - look at the subthread. I gave examples of show-only flubs (since the request specifically asked not to use book characterizations) and was met with headcanon for show and book lore as explanations for just one of the examples. No response for the others. It's pretty clear that the big "now that you've got it out of your system..." thread changed things around here. Only one perspective is tolerated.


CheMoveIlSole

Saw that. It's amazing what people will justify simply because they desperately want something to be good. I'm sorry but the show isn't good right now. Fanboys and fangirls may want it to be the best god damn show since Band of Brothers but it isn't.


Axerin

Yes


Protopulse

How did Rand see Moiraine's weaves when she removed the darkness from Mat? I think show canon is everyone can see weaves.


shabi_sensei

He sees Moiraine taking the darkness out of Mat and into herself, he even thanks her for taking that on all by herself to save his friend. Doesn't see any weaves.


Protopulse

Oh I guess weaves and Shadar Logoth darkness are treated differently. Don't remember if the taint of Shadar Logoth was ever visible in the books.


Darlan72

That doesn't say anything. At most she could feel/see the shield being pushed and cracked in a point, but how he will use the power, she can't even guess. He could do whatever. Blind one, or all. Hit one, whatever, none of them will know until it happened. It's just bad writing the lore, just for drama.


nv_west

Okay, you corrected my head-canon but it’s stukl way too confusing for new viewers


Sallymander

I would imagine she felt the holes being pushed open through the shield and knew what it meant. Like reaching into a glass of clear water that has a perfect clear marble. You can feel it but not see it.


Sicbodysicmind

I have a feeling for the TV show and the ease of channeling I really think men are going to be able to see females and vice versa


King_fora_Day

Moiraine already said that she couldn't see Logain's channeling when she first joined Alanna in shielding him.


Sicbodysicmind

Dang it you're right sorry I was totally spacing out while I was driving thinking of this.... I've watched that episode three times and I know this


Raiden32

Driving and commenting?


Sicbodysicmind

Are you going to yell at me for writing a comment at a red light?


Raiden32

No, but I’ll tell you it’s bad practice. Not that you’d care either way.


AuditAndHax

Which didn't make much sense to me. He's shielded, aka not channeling. What's there to see?


shabi_sensei

Logain is channeling under the shield, that's how he stopped Stepin's axes and made them explode


AuditAndHax

I thought she made the comment when the shield was already established (sunken into him). At that point, he can't channel, only reach for the source. There are no weaves to see until later when he breaks the shield and they're struggling to cut him off again.


King_fora_Day

Yeah I think you are right tbf.


mistiklest

It's already been confirmed they can not.


AuditAndHax

People downvoting your opinion are weird, especially since you're probably right. Men can sense when women channel. The way I see it, the show has three realistic options: ignore the books and say men can't; invent a new way to show men "perceiving" female channeling; or just go with men seeing the weaves. Option 1 is boring, option 2 is expensive. Option 3 is right there and free.


CheMoveIlSole

Because they don't want it to be true for some reason. The show said something but broke it's own rules. That is bad storytelling. I guess the show didn't do that, though, because...(insert gap filling here). People don't want to think critically about this stuff. I get it. This is only a problem if you pay attention carefully to what the show is actually telling us. The sad part is people can't understand this is what separates a merely expensive show from a good or great show. The details matter as does the execution. Everything has to come together from the CGI to the cinematography to the sound editing to the acting. I can't, for the life of me, understand why fans are being asked by the show to fill in these gaps. All of this could have easily been avoided by simply framing the shots from the perspective of the most important participants in the scene. Admittedly, however, we get this with Logain's scene and the show still implies Logain saw saidar. I need a smoke.