By - Most_Calendar61
If they’re offended by that, then they shouldn’t be your friend. They can believe what they want and also shut their mouths. The problem with a lot of Christians is that they think spreading their faith means judging people and telling people how they are wrong. It’s especially funny and ironic because the only people that Jesus really judged and called out were hypocritical religious leaders.
Dang. You've asked me before if I only seek out things I disagree without on to respond to. And I said that I just, generally, did not feel strongly abojt the topics we agree on like I do the ones we don't. Well here it is, something you've said that I emphatically agree with. This more or less sums up the entirety of what is wrong with "conservative" or "fundamental" chriatians, especially in the US, but really, everywhere
Right? It’s hard because I’m a Christian myself. I’m far from perfect and I judge people but more for society stuff and for doing things I perceive to be stupid. I don’t care what religion anyone is, and I never think I’m better than anyone because I’m a Christian. I feel like any Christian that acts that way either doesn’t even crack open the Bible or seriously just has absolutely zero understanding of literally ANY of Jesus’s teachings. The worst part is that I’m also a conservative, but it absolutely disgusts me how these “Christian” politicians use that shit as a means to put people down and be assholes
Idk about the rest of religions, but for Mormons, they basically teach you that it's worth losing your friends by trying to convert them because if you don't try, then when they die and don't get to go to super heaven, they'll be eternally pissed at you for not trying harder. No personal boundaries in mortal life can possibly be as important as which level of heaven you go to forever.
It’s more than that. Trying to force your personal religious beliefs is obviously a problem, but so is believing that other people are invalid due to their intrinsic qualities.
Even if someone is quiet about being a bigot, their bigotry will still inevitably flow through to their actions, and in fact that’s what we see in the form of exclusion, coercion, abuse, and attempts at delegitimizing or disenfranchising people by law.
As a queer person I responded to family by saying "Love the Christian, hate the Christ". They were so shocked they've never said "Hate the sin love the sinner" again.
I feel like it should be reversed - Love the Christ, hate the Christian - even though it changes the sentence structure a bit I feel like it fits better
They dont love christ though
They love trying to use him as an excuse for any of their beliefs that they know everyone else finds repulsive.
The foundational point of Jesus' teaching in the Gospels is that people are deserving of the most horrific abuse imaginable for all eternity at his hands (or at least a second death in fire, for those Annhiliationists out there), but he can save them if they just admit that they're awful and broken and worship him. That's not a very praiseworthy ethos, that's straight out of the narcissistic abuser's handbook.
It's also beside the point of the reversal, which is to highlight the dishonesty of saying "I love you, I really do, I just really hate these core aspects of who you are."
And in regards to the people that do follow those types of beliefs.
If your only reason for being a good person is divine reward. Guess what, you're not a good person.
It’s so crazy to me how so many religious people genuinely think that atheists have no morals, simply because they’re not listening to an ancient hateful book where its heroes commit rape, murder, slavery, and genocide. Didn’t Prager U put out a video like that? How even atheists get their “morals” from the Bible and thus no good person is purely atheist or some shit like that? They’re snitching on themselves for having no moral compass, imo.
No religion involved here, but aren't we all selfish all the time? We help people feel better and do good things because it makes us feel good. Not out of the goodness of our heart.
It makes more sense. Christ is not described to be anything like what most vocal Christians are.
Blasphemy is a victimless crime
Growing up around these kinds of people, I can tell you that they find many roundabout ways to try to justify why their hate is actually love, and it’s all BS. Another group I see this mindset with is the homeless. These kinds of people will want to clear homeless from some place where they are just trying to live and not bother anyone, then try to justify it by saying it’s for their own good or some BS like that. Fact is, we are commanded to love people no matter what in Christianity (assuming that’s what the person in OP’s post is because it sounds like a pretentious evangelical), and if you feel the need to go out of your way to try and say “I love you even though you x,” maybe you need to re-evaluate if you actually love that person or if you are just paying lip service.
You want to break an evangelicals brain tell them you believe in God but don't consider him worthy of worship
"God is real and he is a bitch"
Unless a god comes up with a good reason why the worship is actually necessary, it gets some major points in the "doesn't deserve worship" category if it demands to be worshipped (like somehow it actually gives god the power to keep the darkness at bay). Plus, and all knowing, all powerful god shouldn't have an issue with finding a way to explain its moral system to me. And so far, I've found the justifications for some of the things the bible permits (like slavery), to be lacking.
haha nice, I'm going to use that
I have a t shirt that says Hate the belief, love the believer.
And I live in an extremely conservative area. 😄😄
Why would would she have homophobic religious nutjobs as friends?
Speak to most of my family.
It's nobody's business who you love or how you love.
I wouldn't take the time to piss on these haters if they were on fire!
(and I'm a straight, white male, gen x'er)
It also turns out they suck at loving the so-called sinners because they're actually fucking abusive as hell to us
They call that "love"
Real talk though my mom (who is Christian) has had other Christians pressure her into “doing something” about my sexuality because “doing nothing is what an abusive mother who doesn’t care about saving her children” would do. They really think loving your queer family members is “the real abuse.”
>If, therefore, we wish either to declare or to recognize the truth, there is a persecution of unrighteousness, which the impious inflict upon the Church of Christ; and there is a righteous persecution, which the Church of Christ inflicts upon the impious.
>[the Church] persecutes in the spirit of love, [the impious] in the spirit of wrath;
– St. Augustine, Letter 185
Guess what else St. Augustine said? "Love the sinner, hate the sin." (Letter 211)
You can now clearly see what "love" means in both these quotes.
If your faith causes you to hate, you’re doing it wrong.
I hate the hate but love the hater. Turns out, I’m fucking crazy.
Sounds like you need new friends that aren’t Fucking idiots.
You can't love and attack at the same time
What about the Care Bear Stare?
That is not attack, it is overcoming upset with love of course!
I dont think you have to accept everything about someone to like them...obvs the sinner comment is homophobic, but I'm not gonna not love someone because they like radiohead.
How about avoiding them if they like Nickel Back?
Nah man, they have some good songs. I think I even had an album when I was younger.
That’s we’re not even family anymore kind of shit
No. Now sit in the corner and think about what you’ve said.
They had a couple of good albums.
I agree it’s homophobic.
That being said is she a bad person for believing the same thing Christians have believed for thousands of years?
Edit: Ignorance alone does not make you a bad person.
So by that logic all Christians in history are bad people?
Certainly any Christian who believes that in the year 2021.
When you are literally brainwashed for decades of your life to believe something it's YOUR fault? Not the culture, traditions, beliefs forced upon you as a child?
Is it not a problem with religious doctrine itself?
Both of these things can be true. It’s not a zero sum game. You can have terrible things done to you but that doesn’t absolve you of responsibility if you perpetuate those same beliefs.
Yes, the bigger responsibility lies with the culture that created the persecution but at some point you begin to carry some of that weight too.
>You can have terrible things done to you but that doesn’t absolve you of responsibility if you perpetuate those same beliefs.
Is it really perpetuating to simply believe something that you were taught?
That's what I don't understand, you are saying that in 2021 if you BELIEVE being gay is a sin you are a bad person. Is it not simple ignorance? Is it purely malicious even though it comes from a place of faith not hate on a personal level? (even though the original doctrine may have been created with malicious intent.)
You say its not a zero sum game but before you literally said any Christian that believes homosexuality is sin is a bad person.
I meant the zero sum game in terms of assigning responsibility.
As far as believing being gay is a sin, ignorance is no excuse in my book. Just to be clear, I’m assuming we’re talking about an everyday American (or other similar culture) and not someone who’s been sequestered away in a literal compound or who’s culture is vastly different from my own (mostly because I can’t speak about that confidently).
If we’re talking about someone with the above context, they’re making an active decision not to challenge their own beliefs when there has never been more open access to information and different perspectives in history.
I can’t blame someone for how they were raised. I myself had several very misogynistic and racist beliefs when I was younger. But I was challenged on those ideas by new information and (I like to think) I’ve changed how I view the world.
As for beliefs, our beliefs inevitably influence our actions. So yes, if you believe someone is lesser because they choose to love someone you don’t approve of (assuming everything is consensual and legal of course, so fuck off pedos) I’m going to think lesser of you for that belief.
> I’m going to think lesser of you for that belief.
That is a much different conclusion that assuming someone is inherently a bad person.
Don't want to be judged based on your religious cult, simply leave it. You don't have to identify to any religion, on the contrast you can live your entire life without being part of any of those messed up religions.
>You don't have to identify to any religion, on the contrast you can live your entire life without being part of any of those messed up religions.
Fortunately we have that luxury in western culture. There are huge portions of the world that this is unacceptable.
Yes. Yes she is.
So if you believe being gay is a sin (as Christians have believed for thousands of years.), you are a bad person? Nothing else in your life is relevant?
I refuse to believe that ignorance = bad person.
I refuse to believe that anyone who thinks my friends are sinning for being with the people they love are truly representing Christ’s message.
And let’s not act like Christians haven’t been cherry picking the ever loving hell out of which sins to persecute people for.
If you refuse to objectively evaluate the moral system handed down from previous generations?
Same arguement applies to other horrors of this world like: slavery, racism, etc...
> If you refuse to objectively evaluate the moral system handed down from previous generations?
That makes you ignorant not malicious.
>Same arguement applies to other horrors of this world like: slavery, racism, etc...
Exactly, If you are raised racist are you intentionally malicious or are you ignorant?
Adults have responsibilities.
One is deciding what's right and what's wrong.
Ignorance is an intentional state.
> One is deciding what's right and what's wrong.
That is not something that is learned on your own, you are taught what is right and wrong.
Ignorance CAN be an intentional state but, is not exclusively so. If you believe that then you are ignorant yourself.
Animals have been shown to practice fairness and other ethical constructs.
So you believe morality to be a truth and not a social construct?
>Animals have been shown to practice fairness and other ethical constructs.
I'd love to hear some examples and proof of this.
>So if you believe being gay is a sin (as Christians have believed for thousands of years.), you are a bad person?
Let's change this from sexuality to disease. For thousands of years, Christians believed that diseases like the cold or the flu were caused by demons, not by viruses. Believing that demonic possession caused disease when we didn't have microscopes and evidence to the contrary does not make a person inherently stupid. Believing that demonic possession causes diseases now is just stupid and wrong.
Similarly, in Italy, for hundreds of years, doctors refused to wash their hands between patients. A lot of patients died because doctors were spreading germs. Before we knew about microorganisms, the belief might have been acceptable. Now, if a doctor refuses to wash his/her hands before surgery, they have committed malpractice.
Further, many groups of Christians did not read Leviticus 18:22 as condemning homosexuality until after American interference. Before that, in German translations, including Martin Luther's original translation in 1534, the understanding was boy molesters were abominations. In German bibles, the term homosexual does not appear until 1983, and that translation only appeared after an American group funded the new translation.
[Here is the original Luther translation.](http://www.ntslibrary.com/Bible%20-%20German%20Luther%20Translation.pdf) Leviticus 18:22 which is cited by many Christians is on page 207 of the PDF.
The language used by Luthor was: Du sollst nicht beim Knaben liegen wie beim Weibe; denn es ist ein Greuel
The direct translation into English says: You shall not lie with a boy as with a woman; for it is an abomination.
The word for boy in old german is Knaben.
There are a bunch of other homophobic passages in the Bible. Just because the one in leviticus has a possible mistranslation doesn't mean that the Bible isn't homophobic.
There are 7 major texts that are relied upon to support homophobia:
1. Leviticus 18:22 (which I showed in my last comment)
2. Leviticus 20:13:
> Wenn jemand beim Knaben schläft wie beim Weibe, die haben einen Greuel getan
und sollen beide des Todes sterben; ihr Blut sei auf ihnen.
Which translates into:
If anyone sleeps with a boy as with a woman, they have done an abomination
and both shall die to death; their blood be on them.
3. Genesis 9:20-27 which deals with Noah's son seeing him naked in his tent. This has more to do with the son not respecting the father and not covering him up.
4. Genesis 19:1–11: which is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. There the ultimate sin is explained in Ezekial 16:49-50:
> ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
5. 1st Corinthians 6:9-10 which also uses the term boy molesters in the Luther translation
6. 1 Timothy 1:10 which also uses the term boy molesters in the Luther Translation; and
7. Romans 1:26-27 which is the only one that actually suggests that homosexuality is a problem in the Luther bible.
The current incarnation of all bibles suggest homosexuality is evil, however that was not always the case. I am merely pointing this out.
>That being said is she a bad person for believing the same thing Christians have believed for thousands of years?
What a take
Being homophobic is an evil thing to do. Being a Nazi is an evil thing to do. Being a racists is an evil thing to do. I don't care your stupid reason for being a bigot.
So are the majority of people living in Islamic states evil?
Being a Muslims isn't the same thing as being a homophobe. You know that right... Not surprised you jump right on the "BUT DAH MUSLIMS" train
Of course being a Muslim doesn't make you a homophobe but the majority of the population in countries with strict fundamental Islamic beliefs ARE. Do you deny that?
I'm not saying they are worse than Christians, they are both fucked up ways of thinking.
Maybe I'm not the crazy right winger you assumed I was?
Anyways, I just had another thought: You may think that I'm trying to misrepresent when I was simply just trying to point out a hypocrisy that maybe you weren't even aware of.
Truth is, Homophobia is rampant basically everywhere and even worse in places that aren't necessarily "western culture."
It's not just Christians and Muslims, it's the same problem in India, almost everywhere in the middle east, most of Africa, many places in Asia also parts of Oceania.
My point is that some people literally grow up in echo-chambers and basically the only LGBT education they ever got was "gay = sin"
Now imagine being born in parts of the US pre 1970, it's literally just as much of an echo-chamber back then as many parts of the world are today.
It's fair if you want to concede that its possible that sometimes homophobes developed those beliefs because they grew up in an oppressively culture themselves.
I'll ask again: Does being merely homophobic , make you a bad person? Is it not possible sometimes there is a deeper problem that needs to be fixed? Is it really as black and white as you assume?
> Does being merely homophobic , make you a bad person?
> Is it not possible sometimes there is a deeper problem that needs to be fixed?
>Does being merely homophobic , make you a bad person?
That's fair but it comes down to what you define as a "bad person".
Do you still stand by your belief that it makes them evil? Even if they were raised in a religious echo-chamber?
the word "hate" is what is throwing me off. shit is to complicated to throw the Love/hate words around.
i think it's because, in the believer's eye, you're insulting the belief, which they think is the absolute truth. "Hate the sin" for them means disliking non-cishets in general, and they're kind of saying "I love you, despite you being non-cishet", while saying that you "hate the belief" means that you hate religion and everything it implies. Which, I repeat, is what they think to be the absolute truth.
Except they choose to be religious, where as gay people are actually gay.
I'm not saying that they're right, i'm trying to see their point of view
And I explained their point of view. They choose the things that let them hate people for how they were born.
you and u/YagirlMisaki are both right, lol. you're both on the same page!
I wouldn't feel attacked at all if someone would tell me that. I've got friends with widely different belief systems. Some are Christian, some abandoned it, some are anti-theists, some don't really care at all.
Ya, in this context though generally people are being pretentious, and it is more or less like saying “I love you even though I’m better than you.” I agree with the sentiment, Christians are commanded to love everyone regardless of being a sinner, but generally people use this type of thing to justify hate, and the actions don’t match the words.
What they’re trying to say with the entire “hate the sin, love the sinner” bullshit is that they think a huge part of someone’s identity is disgusting, repulsive and worthy of eternal torture. That’s a very privileged viewpoint you have there
Haha, yeah, "friends"
How are they your friends if they hate you? I become so much happier when I cut toxic people out.
I mean in all fairness what the quote means is to love the person but you don't need to like their actions or how they love their life
But...as a believer...that phrase wouldn't bother me at all
That’s fair enough, since it is logically analogous.
So, does OP hate the idea that people deserve love even if they have done something bad?
One of the problems with "hate the sin, love the sinner" is that it implicitly assumes being gay is a choice, which is objectively wrong. You choose to lie or steal or murder; you don't choose to be gay. Why would you? Many mainstream religious groups (in the US, at least) are awful to gay people, and they have a lot of sway over one of the two relevant political parties, which gives them a lot of room to impose their dogma on everyone else.
Even if it doesn't imply being gay is a choice, that would logically mean God intentionally made you wrong, which an omnipotent and loving God wouldn't do.
**Being** gay is not considered a sin. Neither is having a tendency toward untruthfulness, greed or wrath. Or any other sexual desire. That’s just the basic human condition. Only things you **do** can be sinful. Having sex with someone outside of the Adamic marriage institution is considered sinful, that is, it’s less than optimal or not perfectly in line with God’s ideal. Then again, no one can be perfect. That’s where Jesus comes into the picture. He can be perfect for us, so we can piggyback on him.
The reason is that sex is sacred. That’s why we consider rape worse than physical assault, because it’s also a spiritual attack on something we consider sacred. Also as soon as things get sexual, relationships between people become complicated. If not so, cheating would not be considered bad, and people would never feel awkward after a ONS.
Contrary to what rude and loud Christians say, sinning will not condemn you to hell. Being a Christian means that by faith alone you are in a relationship with God. And being in a relationship you are willing to make concessions for the other person out of love, respect and gratitude toward them.
Like if your friend don’t like it if you smoke, you won’t smoke when you’re with them. If your relationship is stronger than that they may be worried about your health and you may want to give up smoking altogether because you value your relationship.
Likewise, if you are in a relationship with God, and you feel convicted that something you do is not pleasing to him, you are loved to avoid it because you appreciate the relationship.
I know. Someone employed some very basic turnabout? Not bloody likely.
Nah the whole thing just sounds fake - if she'd said family members "who love to tell me" instead of friends it would have sounded more plausible. If you know or are friends with someone but disapprove of parts of their lifestyle, do you 'love to tell them' toxic phrases like that that reveal your distaste? No, because that is a good way to end a friendship.
"homophobia doesn't exist" is a hell of a take
Maybe you should scroll a little. I already clarified my take and it has nothing whatsoever to do with homophobia existing or not.
Funny how many quote these lines that are opposite of what Jesus said...