T O P

Sorry. Just “voting” will not fix things. And just voting for the Democratic Party damn sure isn’t going to fix things.

Sorry. Just “voting” will not fix things. And just voting for the Democratic Party damn sure isn’t going to fix things.

[deleted]

Y'all was indeed aware


shatabee4

Never Biden. Never Kamala. Never Buttigieg. No more worthless, useless, loser, neoliberal corporatists. If the establishment endorses a candidate, it's a guarantee that they suck.


bananachomper

My goodness people. I know it’s so disempowering not having a voice anymore without Bernie as a candidate, but unfortunately we really don’t have time for bickering. The climate won’t survive. I’m sorry, but it won’t. It might not even survive with Biden. That’s how cookie crumbles right now. I normally would in fact say yes, please vote differently. Vote differently on all levels or government. Be active and involved with people in our life’s with good discussions and time to contemplate different sides of the stories out there. And yes, please do all those things, and truly vote as you will, I have no say in that, it’s your right, and a damn good one. I just instinctively feel like there really isn’t time for this bickering about presidents. One is a traitor, with at least one adversarial country, possibly 2, any corporate entity that will buy him, and has stolen large amounts of money for himself, and many others. He is in fact stealing the election right now. The other, is significantly less of traitor and while he is somewhat bought as well, he hasn’t betrayed our country to another that wants much of our country dead so that they can come in and take our resources for their own gain in a dying world. Your choice.


rundown9

> The climate won’t survive. Democrats won't be any better on environmental concerns ... [DNC’s Flip-Flop on Fossil Fuel Subsidies Follows Deep Ties the Industry - The DNC quietly removed language from the party platform that endorsed an end to fossil fuel subsidies, after voting two years ago to allow itself to accept fossil fuel PAC contributions. ](https://readsludge.com/2020/08/18/dncs-flip-flop-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-follows-deep-ties-the-industry/) ... ["Green dream or whatever" - House Speaker Nancy Pelosi throws shade on the Green New Deal - Pelosi's attitude toward the Green New Deal also risks putting her out of step with the direction her party is taking on a national level.](https://www.salon.com/2019/02/07/green-dream-or-whatever-nancy-pelosi-dismisses-alexandria-ocasio-cortezs-new-deal-climate-plan/) ... [The Democratic Platform Backtracked on Fossil Fuels. Climate Activists Are Upset. - “This platform is a step backwards, and we deserve better.”](https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2020/08/the-democratic-platform-backtracked-on-fossil-fuels-climate-activists-are-upset/) Nor Biden ... [Climate Crisis: Biden Climate Plan Will 'Double Down' On Oil; Dakota Access Lives On - The plan drew praise from the industry’s top lobbying organization, the American Petroleum Institute.](https://therealnews.com/columns/climate-crisis-biden-climate-plan-will-double-down-on-oil-dakota-access-lives-on) Even Biden's IDpol approved campaign co-chair ... [Joe Biden’s Campaign Co-Chair is a Big Oil and Gas Booster - Rep. Cedric Richmond, the Biden campaign’s national co-chair, has one of the most pro-industry voting records on fossil fuel issues among all congressional Democrats. ](https://readsludge.com/2019/12/16/joe-bidens-campaign-co-chair-is-a-big-oil-and-gas-booster/) Then we have this Obama crony ... [Ken Salazar, the Obama administration’s first-term interior secretary, took a job at an industry law and lobbying firm just months after leaving office. There, he refashioned himself as an oil champion and avoided disclosing the companies that paid him to lobby. Now Salazar has a new role: adviser to Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden. ](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ken-salazar-biden-campaign-energy-ethics_n_5f22cfe6c5b68fbfc87fc8b5) ... [Biden Gets Physical With Voter Concerned About Pipelines, Tells Him to Vote for Someone Else ](https://www.ecowatch.com/biden-tells-voter-concerned-about-pipelines-to-vote-for-someone-else-2644967835.html?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1) ... [Biden tells Des Moines activist 'vote for someone else' in tense exchange](https://www.kcci.com/article/biden-tells-des-moines-activist-vote-for-someone-else/30705659) What's telling about that exchange is the activist says he will still vote Biden, and is immediately dismissed. That is what we can expect from entitled Democrats by continuing to buy into their bullshit and keep them in power - I will never vote for that.


Big_Seltzer

I consider coming up with the Crime Bill, Patriot Act, repeated support for many awful wars, including the notorious Iraq War, to be far more heinous and treasonous than what Trump did, as they were actions that forever changed America for the worse.


Observant_Try

I am not voting for Biden or Trump!


LilWienerBigHeart

congrats?


g0d_save_the_queen

lmao trump is a traitor? stop the kool aid,the dude is an american nationalist


LetMyForbynGo

*Russian-owned American Fascist


g0d_save_the_queen

lmao no the true russian puppets are the marxist brainwashed kids that yuri bezonov warned us about russia of today is a meme and only america are stupid enough to think they are still the ussr,they aint they are piss poor with rusted military,they are a meme we laugh at in europe,nothing more than a old man yelling at how tough they once was lmao only americans see them as a threat. but they do it cause they need to justify keeping a invasion force isntead of a defencive one like most normal nations trump is just a old school biz dem and his opinions where in line with the dems in 2010,hes just a boomer who loves his country but if you wanna accuse him of being owned by anyone its israel but then again yanks are big jew worshippers?


LetMyForbynGo

holy fucking word salad


yumyum402

It is astounding how much sense u/g0d_save_the_queen made with his ‘word salad’ Kind of funny how it made you absolutely speechless, the fed is laughing behind your back


LetMyForbynGo

You're spare parts, bud


yumyum402

Ah, Good ol’ letterkenny... Although it’s not the best insult coming from someone who is broken


LetMyForbynGo

Best insult would be to mail you a mirror


yumyum402

Ohhhh sick burn! (Especially coming from a 34 year old lol)


g0d_save_the_queen

lmao not my fault you are too retarded to read anon.


LetMyForbynGo

Anon? My name is in my username, you fucking bag of dog diarrhea


g0d_save_the_queen

take the L and know when you are beat you nonce, begone.


LetMyForbynGo

Take the D out of your mom's mouth and have that long-overdue conversation about how she made you this way


g0d_save_the_queen

lmao you have no argument except from screeching lmao you know everything i said is true and you cant stand it. stay mad die mad


Blackhalo

Make more sense than your "OMG, Russia!"


Zomgzilla

I think we're at the point where major direct action needs to happen, and change needs to be forceful. Voting doesn't work. All the Reddit GW Bush neoliberals in this thread think things will be better with Trump gone, and that's not true. The media still lies. Politicians still take bribes to sell us out. No healthcare, no plans to fix a dying planet by holding corporations (and not just the little guy) accountable. No plans to hold police accountable in any fashion, I mean really, it's all been lipservice, lies, and more lipservice for all our lives, with the only real alternative (Bernie) getting absolutely dragged through the mud of their lies. I'm voting Green because I want platforms and policies over lies. Biden is a liar, Trump is a liar. Don't get me started on race, and no, I won't buy into the pink pussy hat hysteria that Trump tweets will dismantle America. I swear, Trump is supposedly an incompetent man-baby, yet somehow more powerful and influential than any other president in US history? *Give. me. a. break.* Lesser evilism is always crying wolf and I'm done with that shit.


JohnTesh

I’m struggling right now because I have no faith in Biden but I don’t want trump. I feel like I have to vote third party to show a lack of faith in the system. All options are so bad. It’s good to hear at least I’m not alone in thinking like this. This shit ha got to stop.


KindaPale

Same. The bottom line, I don't want Trump either. I get accused of blindly voting blue, but honestly, if we don't, we get stuck with Trump for another four. Do we want that?


Blackhalo

Beats Biden for eight.


major-DUTCH-Schaefer

No it doesn’t


bertrand_franklin

Why does purity pony have cyrilllic characters? Let's just ignore their comments shall we?


NetWeaselSC

> Let's just ignore their comments shall we? Sauce for the goose... your comments get ignored, then.


Big_Seltzer

You'll get Trump 2.0 who is more competent because people will get sick of Dems, and none of the underlying issues will be solved. Besides, with Biden there will be nowhere near the level of opposition to his incoming Social Security cuts like they'd have against Trump. And if you've been paying ANY attention to Biden you'll know he will NOT have a progressive or liberal judge, but a corporate tool to 'appease Republicans' or 'build a bridge' with them. Do we want that?


Observant_Try

With Biden you will get a third term Obama. Nothing will change...


Blackhalo

> third term Obama. Best case. I expect worse.


Zomgzilla

Right, it's not a *simple* choice. It feels like an easy one for me now, but I spent a lot of time thinking about how the policies that matter, that I vote on, that impact me most, always were, and always will be, **throttled** by Democrats. They tell you sweet nothings, and go **ballistic** when real change actually seems possible (when Bernie was winning). It was Dems who hysterically told us Bernie's campaign and supporters were like Nazi Germany, and that Bernie wanted to "burn the Democratic party down" with his policies, and rhetoric that we need to... wait for it... *tax the rich*... Of course I expect nothing from Republicans, nor will I try to rehabilitate war criminals like Ellen DeGeneres democrats. But it's the Dems who say they're your friend as they poison your drink, plain and simple. I want Greens to reach %5 of the vote to get competitive federal funds. I know they won't win, and.. Biden losing doesn't fall on me. He's not my candidate, he doesn't represent any of my values, his party shows contempt for progressives, regularly. If he loses, I don't care, he was a bad candidate, not my problem. The national issues we're seeing under Trump started well before 3 years ago, and will continue under a Biden administration anyway, but with Biden I guess you'll be less aware of it because he doesn't tweet as much, and the media touts him as 'polite'. And then of course validating all the democrat fuckery with a Biden win means we'll be seeing Cuomo, Harris, and Buttigieg much more in the future.... no thanks 🤮


Meowser02

Wow I never knew that presidents can control the actions of every cop in America


Jalaluddin1

You’re so fucking stupid. Like you’re actually a knuckle dragging inbred. Jesus Christ. There is no conceivable reason to vote trump over Biden unless you’re racist, greedy or stupid. It’s that simple. Every single one of trumps policies go against a progressive agenda. Literally every single one.


rundown9

> There is no conceivable reason to vote trump over Biden Whatever there's no need to vote for either, just let you "blue team vs red team" drones work it out.


g0d_save_the_queen

lmao jim crow joe and kamala the cop are less racist than trump? lmao you are the knuckle dragging dribbling retard anon


oskiwowwowwhiskey

>There is no conceivable reason to vote trump over Biden unless you’re racist, greedy or stupid. It’s that simple. It’s not that simple. The only way to get better candidates is to refuse to vote for the garbage they keep shoving down our throats.


Observant_Try

I agree with you 100 percent!


KidCudiLean4Real

This is such dumb logic and why the progressive movement is going to die because of people like you. This is the most progressive platform in History getting passed, allowing for millions of Americans lives to improve and be a pathway for more progressive change. Not voting isn’t doing anything but leaving you in the dark, nobody will pay attention to you if you don’t make your voice heard and vote. Thank god a majority of Bernie supporters actually understand this and will vote Biden. The rest of you Bernie or bust people will be forgotten as Bernie & Biden work together to Make progressive change. Hope you change your mind


rundown9

> This is the most progressive platform in History getting passed, What a gigantic pile of hot horseshit ... **The Bernie - Biden "unity" task force was a complete failure, nothing Bernie has fought for will be represented.** [Joe Biden’s Campaign Is Making It Very Clear: They Will Push Austerity in the White House - A top Joe Biden advisor indicated that the entire agenda Biden is campaigning on won't be pursued once he's in the White House.](https://jacobinmag.com/2020/08/biden-democratic-national-convention-austerity) ... [Joe Biden is already planning a failed presidency, Team Biden clearly expects to win, and they are already starting to walk back their campaign promises, just as happened under Obama.](https://theweek.com/articles/932075/joe-biden-already-planning-failed-presidency) ... [Biden’s cabinet short list shows Wall Street will control administration - Biden has made his career with money from the credit card industry and paid it back by making it hard for Americans to get out of debt.](https://www.idsnews.com/article/2020/03/opinion-bidens-cabinet-short-list-shows-wall-street-will-control-administration) ... [Joe Biden to rich donors: "Nothing would fundamentally change" if he's elected - Biden went on to say that the rich should not be blamed for income inequality, pleading to the donors, “I need you very badly.”](https://www.salon.com/2019/06/19/joe-biden-to-rich-donors-nothing-would-fundamentally-change-if-hes-elected/) Looks like LGBT will be thrown under the bus too, [The Biden camp is making the case to Evangelical voters that Biden’s agenda is “much more aligned with their common good values than what we’re seeing from the current administration.”](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/511809-biden-looks-to-make-inroads-with-evangelical-voters) And Democrats won't be any better on environmental concerns ... [DNC’s Flip-Flop on Fossil Fuel Subsidies Follows Deep Ties the Industry - The DNC quietly removed language from the party platform that endorsed an end to fossil fuel subsidies, after voting two years ago to allow itself to accept fossil fuel PAC contributions. ](https://readsludge.com/2020/08/18/dncs-flip-flop-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-follows-deep-ties-the-industry/) ... ["Green dream or whatever" - House Speaker Nancy Pelosi throws shade on the Green New Deal - Pelosi's attitude toward the Green New Deal also risks putting her out of step with the direction her party is taking on a national level.](https://www.salon.com/2019/02/07/green-dream-or-whatever-nancy-pelosi-dismisses-alexandria-ocasio-cortezs-new-deal-climate-plan/) ... [The Democratic Platform Backtracked on Fossil Fuels. Climate Activists Are Upset. - “This platform is a step backwards, and we deserve better.”](https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2020/08/the-democratic-platform-backtracked-on-fossil-fuels-climate-activists-are-upset/) Nor Biden ... [Climate Crisis: Biden Climate Plan Will 'Double Down' On Oil; Dakota Access Lives On - The plan drew praise from the industry’s top lobbying organization, the American Petroleum Institute.](https://therealnews.com/columns/climate-crisis-biden-climate-plan-will-double-down-on-oil-dakota-access-lives-on) Even Biden's IDpol approved campaign co-chair ... [Joe Biden’s Campaign Co-Chair is a Big Oil and Gas Booster - Rep. Cedric Richmond, the Biden campaign’s national co-chair, has one of the most pro-industry voting records on fossil fuel issues among all congressional Democrats. ](https://readsludge.com/2019/12/16/joe-bidens-campaign-co-chair-is-a-big-oil-and-gas-booster/) Then we have this Obama crony ... [Ken Salazar, the Obama administration’s first-term interior secretary, took a job at an industry law and lobbying firm just months after leaving office. There, he refashioned himself as an oil champion and avoided disclosing the companies that paid him to lobby. Now Salazar has a new role: adviser to Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden. ](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ken-salazar-biden-campaign-energy-ethics_n_5f22cfe6c5b68fbfc87fc8b5) ... [Biden Gets Physical With Voter Concerned About Pipelines, Tells Him to Vote for Someone Else ](https://www.ecowatch.com/biden-tells-voter-concerned-about-pipelines-to-vote-for-someone-else-2644967835.html?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1) ... [Biden tells Des Moines activist 'vote for someone else' in tense exchange](https://www.kcci.com/article/biden-tells-des-moines-activist-vote-for-someone-else/30705659) What's telling about that exchange is the activist says he will still vote Biden, and is immediately dismissed. That is what we can expect from entitled Democrats by continuing to buy into their bullshit and keep them in power - I will never vote for that. As long as a guy like Biden is the figurehead of the Dem party, the left has no future in it. **The decades long conservative and three decades POTUS loser ain't moving anywhere, but will say anything to get elected.** Here's the difference between Bernie and Biden. [North American Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act (1993)](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/103/hr3450) Implemented NAFTA, a trade deal with Canada and Mexico that reduced barriers to cross-national investment. Most economists say it was a net benefit overall to the U.S. economy, but, in some instances, at the detriment of American workers. -Biden Yea, Bernie Nay [Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/104/hr3734) The law ended traditional public welfare programs and replaced them with temporary assistance with strict work requirements and lifetime caps. -Biden Yea, Bernie Nay [Defense of Marriage Act (1996)](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/104/hr3396) Defined marriage as the union between a man and a woman. Overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2013. -Biden Yea, Bernie Nay [Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/106-1999/s105) Deregulated the financial industry by repealing much of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, thus eliminating the wall between commercial and investment banking. -Biden Yea, Bernie Nay [Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (2001)](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/106/s900) Known as the Patriot Act, it passed after the Sept. 11 terrorism attacks and gave broad new surveillance, detention, search and investigative powers to federal authorities. -Biden Yea, Bernie Nay [Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/107/hjres114) The vote that gave President Bush the authority to launch the Iraq War and Operation Iraqi Freedom. -Biden Yea, Bernie Nay [Homeland Security Act of 2002](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/107/hr5005/summary) Created the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. -Biden Yea, Bernie Nay [Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/s256) Made it more difficult for people to declare Chapter 7 bankruptcy. -Biden Yea, Bernie Nay [Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/hr1424) Authorized the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program to rescue the financial service industry amid the 2008 financial crisis. -Biden Yea, Bernie Nay ... These are the floor votes, Biden's working behind the scenes on a number of bills create a more in detailed picture as to the vast differences between Biden's and Bernie's philosophy. [How Joe Biden worked with and praised a longtime opponent of civil rights - Biden praised Stennis, an opponent of the landmark civil rights bills of the 1960s, by comparing him to Confederate General Stonewall Jackson and portraying both men as a "thunderbolt from a clear sky."](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/28/politics/kfile-joe-biden-stennis-latest/index.html) ... [Joe Biden, Mass Incarceration Zealot - For years, Joe Biden was determined to make Democrats the tough-on-crime party. The 1994 Crime Bill and its expansion of mass incarceration was his crowning achievement.](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/biden-crime-mass-incarceration-police-prisons) ... [Biden repeatedly pushed bill in Senate that critics said would have made investigating police officers for misconduct more difficult.](https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/10/politics/biden-senate-police-officers-kfile/index.html) ... [“Hold every drug user accountable.” - Joe Biden’s long record supporting the war on drugs and mass incarceration, Biden was a major Democratic leader in spearheading America’s war on drugs during the 1980s and ’90s.](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/25/18282870/joe-biden-criminal-justice-war-on-drugs-mass-incarceration) ... [The Untold Story: Joe Biden Pushed Ronald Reagan to Ramp Up Incarceration — Not the Other Way Around](https://theintercept.com/2019/09/17/the-untold-story-joe-biden-pushed-ronald-reagan-to-ramp-up-incarceration-not-the-other-way-around/) ... [Joe Biden didn't just compromise with segregationists. He fought for their cause in schools. - Joe Biden helped give America the language that is still used to oppose school integration today, legislative and education history experts say.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/joe-biden-didn-t-just-compromise-segregationists-he-fought-their-n1021626) ... [Cory Booker Says Joe Biden Created ‘All the Problems That He Is Talking About’ - "I actually led the bill that got passed into law that reverses the damage that your bills that you were bragging, calling it the Biden crime bill up until 2015."](https://archive.fo/QrLFQ) ... [All The Times Joe Biden Told Progressives Not To Vote For Him](https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/05/15/all-the-times-joe-biden-told-people-not-to-vote-for-him/#35d6f9c6292c) Also check r/BKAC_JoeBiden/


Observant_Try

I don't agree with your thinking. Bernie and his people tried to get Biden to agree to make changes. However, that is not going to happen. It will be business as usual.


negroflaco

>the progressive movement is going to die because of people like you. i always get my advice on how to be progressive from entitled neoliberal racists and bigots.


emorejahongkong

>platform ... pathway for more progressive change. > Bernie & Biden work together to Make progressive change. Pro-tip: for a skeptical audience, you need to dilute the Kool-aid.


Observant_Try

Regarding "work together" is not correct though, I guess you will have to wait and see.


Crow_Agreeable

What about the First Step Act?


martini-meow

or opportunity zones in black neighborhoods.


Crow_Agreeable

I just read up on that a little bit. Is there any indepth videos I can watch to explore that idea more? Edit: most likely the far left will claim that it's racist because it will also help out poor white regions. There are more poor whites than there are total black people in America.


martini-meow

Aso, look up rapper Nipsey Hussle (RIP) and his efforts at leveraging these zones, before he was murdered.


martini-meow

u/Immotile1 - can you narrow it down to just one or two videos on opportunity zones? I know you have a metric f'ton of links, but they can be overwhelming all at once ;-)


Immotile1

There's been quite a lot, especially after the RNC convention. I think it is a great initiative. Firstly, the announcement and signing: [Watch Live: President Trump Signs Executive Order Promoting American 'Opportunity Zones'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsGdCuygRqE) [Sen. Scott: Trump's accomplishments for Blacks ‘outpaces anything… in my lifetime’]( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W42MJk_YAS8) [Are opportunity zones helping the communities they're in?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySDDESvW52A) I am positive about the initiative and what it can do for struggling areas.


Dsilkotch

Who’s voting for Trump? Personally, I’m voting Green.


g0d_save_the_queen

im voting trump now,dems have gone insane


penmaggots

But isn't the Green party pretty much Russia. Wasn't Jill Stein funded by Russia and there are pictures of like her, Michael Flynn, Putin and various other Russian and Trump associates at a table. Like she had to actually use her campaign funds to fight her russian legal issues or something.


rundown9

> But isn't the Green party pretty much Russia. Wasn't Jill Stein funded by Russia BlueAnon


Dsilkotch

No


negroflaco

that's chinese propaganda


Jalaluddin1

In a 2 party system, any vote not for Biden is a vote for trump.


rundown9

> any vote not for Biden is a vote for trump. So any vote not for Trump must be a vote for Biden, so you'll be fine.


negroflaco

so what?


senanabs

I told Trump supporters I'm voting Green and they told me it's a vote for Biden. Why are you right and not them?


Dark_souless

This is inaccurate, a 3rd party vote is an automatic acceptance of whoever the winner is. Your vote will not do anything because it is impossible at this time to actually win with a 3rd party candidate. Therefore, you may be protesting the available options but you are also accepting responsibility for the election of the winner.


UntamedOne

That makes no sense because conservatives also say a third party vote it is a vote for Biden.


Mikes2nd

exactly... Trump supporters are here trying to get Bernie voters to vote green or libertarian... one switch is a vote for trump :) They know it, we know it... I question the motivation of posters we seem to see this kind of crap every day or two.... Russia likes to put this out there... a disaffected voter who doesn't vote for Biden is a vote for trump....


NetWeaselSC

> In a 2 party system, any vote not for Biden is a vote for trump. Why, in a 2 party system, is any vote not for Trump not a vote for Biden?


JayNam9012

Get your priorities first. People are dying due to covid19. And by judging the last 6 months, trump ain't the one that's gonna fix it. I like progressive ideas and all; but it means nothing if you can't handle a health crisis.


oskiwowwowwhiskey

Biden said he would veto M4A.


JayNam9012

I am talking about covid19 here. M4A ain't the breaking point for me. I am more focused on ending the pandemic. Pandemic and the economic shock will be so severe it will take more than one term to recover. At least Biden has the know-how to deal with virus. Obama didn't fail dealin with Ebola.


negroflaco

> I am talking about covid19 here. where talking about M4a here, try to keep up son.


JayNam9012

which was my point. M4A < ending covid19 is this too hard of a concept for you people?


negroflaco

>I am talking about covid19 here. That's dumb as hell though and quite stupid. Are you drunk right now? You forgot you wrote that when i quoted it back to you? Jesus christ.


Millionmario

Whataboutism. November is a fight for America pure and simple


modsarefascists42

you guys say this every fucking 4 years, and will say the exact same shit next time


UntamedOne

Head-in-the-sand-ism. Jan, Feb, March, April, May, June, July, Aug, Sep, Oct, Dec should be a fight too. The Trump supporters are not going away if Trump loses. Trump can run again in 2024 or they run someone worse (a non-idiot). Fascists can still take over, because the Democrats let suffering build up to the point a demagogue tells the solution to all their problems. By taking corporate cash and direction from lobbyists the Democrats let fascism creep and grow, but it seems to be ok as long as they can personally enrich their own fortunes and power.


XoXSmotpokerXoX

idiots have no fucking clue what happened with Arab Spring in Libya. I am no fan of Obama but when EU asked the USA to go into Libya, we said no, its not our job to solve every countries problem. Obama should be applauded for this. All we did was neutralize their air and heavy artillery, to keep people from being slaughtered. Fucking fools.


Observant_Try

??


XoXSmotpokerXoX

what part confused you?


senanabs

> All we did was neutralize their air and heavy artillery Even if this is true (it is not), are you fucking kidding me?


XoXSmotpokerXoX

So are you saying he should have let thousands die, or we should have spent trillions and occupied Libya? He said it himself, it was his biggest mistake counting on the UK, France and NATO and the chaos that followed. But plain and simple Americans did not went to occupy another country.


oskiwowwowwhiskey

>when EU asked the USA to go into Libya, we said no, its not our job to solve every countries problem. >All we did was neutralize their air and heavy artillery That’s getting involved, you dumb fuck.


XoXSmotpokerXoX

obviously you are not very smart, but just so you know, stopping thousands from being slaughtered is not "enabling" slavery. It takes a real fucking moron to accuse Obama of causing slavery in Africa.


negroflaco

why do you support slavery?


XoXSmotpokerXoX

why are you so stupid?


negroflaco

Why do you hate black people?


XoXSmotpokerXoX

because your mom used to be my slut, now she gives it up to anyone.


negroflaco

I knew you like to rape black women for fun.


XoXSmotpokerXoX

you dont know who your real father is because your mother is a whore


negroflaco

i know you love to rape black women


haikusbot

*You dont know who your* *Real father is because your* *Mother is a whore* \- XoXSmotpokerXoX --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")


emorejahongkong

... and it takes an Obama to say: >'Libya was my biggest mistake' ... where the decisive USA intervention was urged on by Hillary & by Biden's BFF Susan Rice.


Haystack316

Dude.. you couldn’t be more wrong. It wasn’t about people being slaughtered but for the fact Qaddafi wanted to raise [the Arab currency backed by the Gold Standard](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kiafriqa.com/amp/declassified-emails-reveal-nato-killed-gaddafi-to-stop-libyan-creation-of-gold-backed-currency) which prompted for US-backed intervention. Had Qaddafi survived, there wouldn’t be a need for arab spring and the western countries wouldn’t be able to exploit the middle east resources.


XoXSmotpokerXoX

GTFO, Qaddafi had been a terrorist sponsor for 20 years.


UntamedOne

Ever hear of the "War on Terror"? Ya its good for the military industrial complex that is propping up our economy. That's why they let him be for 20 years.


Blackhalo

Great. What about Libya AND Syria?


XoXSmotpokerXoX

those are two countries, what are you confused about? My comment was about the moronic twiiter post OP linked.


[deleted]

Cmon guys if we want real progressive change we gotta get Trump out of office first and foremost. Once that’s done we push Biden on key issues like M4A and student debt relief. The future of progressives as of right now is we have to take over the Democratic Party.


negroflaco

> Once that’s done we push Biden on key issues like M4A and student debt relief go be a dumb fuck somewhere else, ain't nobody got time for that.


UntamedOne

Biden said he would veto M4A if it passed. Trump isn't going away he can run again in 2024 or even build a media propaganda network. We are not getting anything unless we hold the rich and powerful hostage with a general strike.


[deleted]

The rich and powerful prefer Trump to giving in to us.


emorejahongkong

>The rich and powerful prefer Trump to giving in to us. Translation: 1. They intend, and have shown the power, to prevent a takeover of the Democratic Party. 2. They are playing "chicken" with us over Trump v. Biden (and your attitude is the biggest reason they are confident that we will "chicken" out and let them have their cake and eat it too).


UntamedOne

That is the point electoral politics isn't going to save us.


ZenShineNine

Agreed and well said. We can't compare any previous election to the current progressive tide flowing right now. Yea- it's the lesser of 2 evils. Same as last elections. But now we at least have to give ourselves a chance to flow with this tide and push the Dems on the issues. This is a big window and if we let Trump win that window closes and we loose the momentum for these progressive issues. We may not even be able to vote in another election. A second Trump term will put us in an im,possible hole to get out of. Then there's the down ballot. Get all of the R's out.


Jkid

\>push Biden on key issues like M4A and student debt relief. That's what everyone says. In reality Biden [will veto medicare for all while you go back to brunch.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWQOvUu54is)


Zomgzilla

Hey now, pink pussy hats have opinions, and sometimes they're worded ***very sternly.***


Blackhalo

Joe Biden is a greater obstacle to progressive change than Trump is.


Observant_Try

Both are huge obstacles!


Blackhalo

One blocks the party nominally favorable to labor, and is busy turning it into one that is favorable to Neo-con Republicans. Which one just invited a bunch of pro-Iraq war Bush admin clowns to speak at their convention? Right, the one that voted FOR the Iraq war.


JayInArlington024

Dumbest thing on the internet today, Comrade. Congrats!


modsarefascists42

try checking your own comment history for worse


JayInArlington024

You REALLY need to get out more if you’re deep-diving into people’s comment history on Reddit. Not much to do now since Comrade Bernie is out?


modsarefascists42

I didn't actually read your trash dumbass Also you just outted yourself as a conservative btw


JayInArlington024

The fact that you think that anybody who doesn’t adore Bernie is a conservative, says more about you than any trash comment on any website could. #BidenHarris2020


modsarefascists42

Lol enjoy your conservative rapist candidate


Mikes2nd

Russians are strong in the wayofthebern... Hah they downvote you like crazy...


negroflaco

we can't get rid of you fucking chinese bots either... weird.


Blackhalo

You should get out more.


[deleted]

hm can you explain your reasoning here? my stance is we have a good shot pushing Biden to agree to some substantial changes.


Blackhalo

Biden opposes criminal justice reform and Medicare for all, is pro war and a liar to boot. You'll get nothing and like it. More likely. is reform from Trump as in chaos might just happen, but Biden is a dead cert no. Trump is a 4 year road block, while Biden is a sure 8, if not more.


jgzman

> Biden opposes criminal justice reform and Medicare for all, is pro war and a liar to boot. Trump actively opposes the existence of the justice system, had no idea healthcare reform was so complicated, is pro-russian control of the US, and "liar" doesn't even scratch the surface. I don't want Biden, but he's the only meaningful choice.


Blackhalo

> pro-russian control of the US OK, Rachel


zeno82

It's true. Trump and GOP got tons of Russian money funneled to their coffers, and keep pushing pro-Russia policies (loosening sanctions on Oleg Deripaska, weakening NATO alliance, withdrawing troops and giving up land to Russia, etc etc) Senate's Intel report confirmed Trump/Russia alliance.


Blackhalo

More or less, than Hillary got for Uranium One?


zeno82

Huh? The Uranium One conspiracy was debunked forever ago. It literally doesn't hold up to the simplest logic. Russia hates Hillary and factually supported and continues to support Trump, who continues to suck up to them. ... Like... Remember how Trump **still** hasn't had the balls to say or do anything about Putin's bounties on Americans? Shep Smith famously publicly debunked Uranium One here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vprHg79TqfY


negroflaco

are you working for the chinese, isralis or saudi arabia?


Blackhalo

> debunked Hah! >On June 29, 2010, Renaissance Capital, a Russian investment bank with ties to the Kremlin and which was promoting Uranium One stock, paid Bill Clinton $500,000 for a speech in Moscow shortly after the Rosatom acquisition of Uranium One was announced. [Give me one example of Trump getting more.](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html) >As the Russians gradually assumed control of Uranium One in three separate transactions from 2009 to 2013, Canadian records show, a flow of cash made its way to the Clinton Foundation. Uranium One’s chairman used his family foundation to make four donations totaling $2.35 million. Those contributions were not publicly disclosed by the Clintons, despite an agreement Mrs. Clinton had struck with the Obama White House to publicly identify all donors. Other people with ties to the company made donations as well.As the Russians gradually assumed control of Uranium One in three separate transactions from 2009 to 2013, Canadian records show, a flow of cash made its way to the Clinton Foundation. Uranium One’s chairman used his family foundation to make four donations totaling $2.35 million. Those contributions were not publicly disclosed by the Clintons, despite an agreement Mrs. Clinton had struck with the Obama White House to publicly identify all donors. Other people with ties to the company made donations as well. Heh. Shep Smith... His first sentence alone is BS.


SirJoeffer

How much do Russian troll farms pay?


negroflaco

are you with the Chinese, Isreali, or Saudi Arabia propaganda machines? so many to keep track of with the democrats.


oskiwowwowwhiskey

What evidence can you provide that anyone here works for a troll farm?


negroflaco

he works with one probably.


Blackhalo

How original. So original, my 3 year old flair mocks you.


tjsyl6

Viva la revolution!


Slay111222

Some people are so woke they are asleep.


nomadicwonder

I almost hope Biden wins so all the "woke" people might actually wake up.


modsarefascists42

they forget anything that is older than 2 years, they'll deny every bit of their ratfuckery towards progressives, then cite Snopes when it says that in fact the DNC did nothing wrong. There is no giving ground to these conservative liberals, they're just a few topics removed from being as politically ignorant as trump voters. They will make excuses after excuses for why Biden's concentration camps are totally fine, the republicans told him sternly that he couldn't close them so what can he do?! They will say that we HAVE TO vote for biden's second term because america itself is at stake, and that the republicans will destroy america if we don't. It's all happened before and will continue happening until most of us are dead and the rich rule the world from their dome cities while the rest of us starve or die in the coming climate wars. I hope they feel super woke for voting for a conservative democrat, I hope that feeling was worth it. Personally, I'm sick of participating in a system that exists to suck value from me and give it to rich fucks who've never earned a damn thing in their life.


vagustravels

No idea why people are fighting over anyone including Tulsi, AOC, Bernie, or anyone with a D next to their name (Bernie may as well FFS). I will never trust anyone with a D next to their name. NEVER! It's just one party: the Neolliberal Corporatist party. If you join it and stay, you are part of the problem. And yes, Bernie has joined it in everything but name. They are not on your side. If they were they wouldn't join them or stay with them. They're killing us, and you people are arguing about Tulsi? FFS. They're all bastards. All of them. There are no good Ds. The good ones have left or been shown the door. Just like cops.


bertrand_franklin

And Rethugnicans? Any good ones of them on your planet? I am also sick of two bad choices and timid, corporatist Dems... but if your comments suggest any R over a D ... well, let's just say I disagree.


vagustravels

It's the same Fing party!!! They all serve the same donors. How can R be better than D when they're the same Fing party? WTH?


Cindy2020yup

You are a fucking moron. Just keep applauding fucking Trump who looks out only for himself. Fuck everyone else. Fuck women’s rights. Fuck LGBT rights. Fuck our taxes. Fuck healthcare. Be antivax and don’t wear a mask and I will still be kind to your retarded ass when you come to my ER needing to be put on a vent with Covid pneumonia. Jesus Christ you are dumb!


negroflaco

but why do you hate black people?


senanabs

Let me say something: shaming people into voting for your candidate, isn't a great idea. It didn't work in 2016 and it won't work in 2020. If anything a lot of people are repulsed by it. I suppose it makes you feel better at least.


vagustravels

>You are a fucking moron That's not very nice. You're a big meanie. > Just keep applauding fucking Trump who looks out only for himself. Fuck everyone else. Fuck women’s rights. Fuck LGBT rights. Fuck our taxes. Fuck healthcare. Replace "Trump" with "Biden" and the sentence is equally true. They are both equally bad. Biden is a career politician. 50 year history. You should check it out. Racist: He worked with segregationists and was proud of it. Are you OK with that? The Violence Against Women Act was watered down but I give you that one. Of course he did also pass the crime bill which targeted minority communities and destroyed 10s of millions of lives/famailies for minor offenses. Are you OK with that? LGBTQ hater: He believes that marriage is between a man and a woman and supported Don't Ask Don't Tell. Are you OK with that? Taxes: He has supported all tax cuts for the rich and defunding basic social services. He wants to kill Social Security so that seniors will die on the streets. He wants to kill Medicare so seniors don't get medications and die. Are you OK with that? Healthcare: He has stated he will veto Medicare4All. Even during a pandemic. People are going to the hospital and getting charged thousands of dollars for basic COVID care. Are you OK with that? Neoliberalism: He has always voted for profit over people. He always votes for companies, including credit card companies, insurance companies, defense contractors over people. He an O, the Noble Peace Prize winner, love war: Syria, Yemen, Libya (there are actual slave markets there now), as well as expanded many others. Both are war criminals. Are you OK with that? Rapist: Tara Reade and many others. Are you OK with that? Security state: The Patriot act was copied from a law he wrote. He ramped up militarizing police. NoDaPL and Occupy Wall Street were attacked while under him and O. Fergueson and BLM happened under him and O. Are you OK with that? It's just one Neoliberal Corporatist party with 2 right wings. That's your guy. It's your choice to vote for a racist, rapist, warcriminal. And then you own that shite. And what he does is also on you; you're responsible because you voted for him to represent him. ​ Lastly, IT'S NOT YOUR FING ER!!! It's the people's/community's ER. You sound like a rich prick doc. Rich people are the reason this country is going to hell. Pay your Fing taxes. I pay more in taxes than you do, and I make nowhere near as much.


Cindy2020yup

Actually reread your response today. Lots of stuff in here I did not know about Biden. I really, really cannot stand Trump but a lot of these things about Biden are horrific. Thank you for the info. Clearly I need to do more research. I think maybe I have been so blinded by my disgust of Trump that I have not really put enough thought into the other option. I am fine with admitting this. I just want someone decent who will be good for all of us.


vagustravels

We all went through what you went through. It sucks. But the alternative is living in their BS lies. Obama/Biden are the ones who continued every bad thing Bush did and made it a lot worse. O and Biden are the ones that passed bills to really ramp up the militarization of police. And the Dems have also voted for many of Bush's crimes, including war authorization and the Patriot Act. Currently Pelosi and Dems have voted to approve all of Trump's military budget and DHS budget. If they hadn't, DHS wouldn't have the money to send agents to Portland and other places and they wouldn't have been able to grab people of the street. It's just one party, with two right wing, always has been. It's always about class, always has been. They re literally killing the weakest of us, here and across the world. Vote as you wish. But you should at least know the truth. [Peoplesparty.org](https://Peoplesparty.org) Convention Sunday August 30, today on youtube ([https://www.pscp.tv/w/1YqKDpLDbaEKV](https://www.pscp.tv/w/1YqKDpLDbaEKV)). Options: Vote Green party instead of the War Party (it's just one party), ... at least you aren't voting for war and them killing us.


Cindy2020yup

I pay 40%


vagustravels

LMAO. That was fast. Nothing else to say? I guess you are OK with that. Fuck the rich!!!


Cindy2020yup

Nope. Not OK with us but I totally agree fuck the Rich including me. I’m happy to pay 40% if it means everyone gets healthcare and free education. I think we should tax companies that are actually building our companies like Apple, Tesla, etc.


vagustravels

Cindy, I feel bad about this but I guess it's up to me to tell you there's no Santa Claus: Let's keep this between us, but Joe Biden is the ultimate neoliberal corporate shill and he's spent 50 years selling us to his corporate masters. It doesn't matter which racist rapist noeliberal you vote for, because they will both sell us to their corporate masters, like they've done for years. Orange man bad, but Joe Biden won't save us either. And ya, if you vote for either one then YOU ARE FING OK WITH IT. Vote how you want, I honestly don't care. But you are voting for someone to represent you. And then you own that shite. All of you that vote for either one do. Read this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/iifb25/lets\_put\_this\_biden\_is\_a\_progressive\_myth\_to\_rest/](https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/iifb25/lets_put_this_biden_is_a_progressive_myth_to_rest/)


Cindy2020yup

I agree. I know he is not great. It’s so sad that we don’t have better options. This country is full of smart, decent people. I think it’s pretty obvious our system is broken. It’s pretty depressing. Thanks for the extra info on Biden though. I am still voting though.


SenorTruck

Shush


hamletswords

Wait, now even Bernie isn't good enough? Who am I supposed to vote for? I guess your solution is to not vote. Plenty of liberals did that last election and look how that turned out.


UntamedOne

Bernie as the nominee was the compromise, these neoliberals just haven't figured that out yet.


negroflaco

> Plenty of liberals did that last election and look how that turned out. wrong all the liberals in the world voted for hillary, she still lost because liberals are racist bigots, just like trump.


WilhelmvonCatface

You can vote for whoever you want, that's your decision not this subs.


[deleted]

This literally reads like the conservative "WELL WHAT ABOUT OBAMA" argument. I feel that the left in the US is going to disintegrate very quickly, I hope as little as possible violence is involved. The left is no longer q political movement which tries to influence broader society, it is a set of social spaces in which angry people take their frustration out on the system, and have no popular support or means to radicalize more people. Back 10 years ago the left was an extremely small, sectarian but politically effective group which discussed strategy and got in line when required to reach as many people and help as many lives as possible, now it's just a bunch of desensitized doomers who want to sacrifice themselves in a war, that I think will go horribly for them.


lourbo

how you gonna complain about doomers them be a doomer


Demonweed

Instead of crying "whataboutism" every time someone points out that Democratic leadership is profoundly awful, why not actually try and raise the bar? I get that it is real work, whereas just ranting and raving across the partisan divide only requires the brainpower of a Wolf Blitzer or a Joy Behar. America deserves better than that. You deserve better than that. How can anything ever improve if even the lesser evil is locked in to this pattern that *encourages* every political horror possible so long as they stop just shy of the greater evil?


vagustravels

Ahhhh, Go F yourself. Never Biden. You and Biden can go F yourself. Oh ya, F you.


hamletswords

Amazing argument


negroflaco

you convinced me.


Alledius

I’ve seen messages like this often on Twitter. Are people seriously thinking that voting for Biden will fix things or are some people just misunderstanding his supporters? Just based on what I’ve seen in my little corner of Twitter, people don’t view voting for him like waving a magic wand and reversing the last three years, but they do think that it’s the start of repairing the damage and preventing things from getting worse. What am I missing?


ZenShineNine

You have the right take on what you're seeing. The true progressives realize we have to get to the starting line to even begin repairing. Then mainstream Dems get pushed toward what really most Americans want: M4A, eliminate college debt, climate action, etc... Then Midterms see more progressive candidates and issues, then 2024 comes and either the Dem party falls in line or there's a 3rd party candidate to emerge. True Progressives know there's a tidal wave about to break after this election- as long as Trump doesn't win, and they know that any vote not for Biden or not voting is a vote for Trump. True Progressives don't take their ball and go home by not voting or choose to take votes away from what has to be done because they aren't getting exactly what hey want with a nice little bow on top. They know they have to do the work byfocusing on one or two issues that mean a lot to them. Any other post you see discouraging this is a bot, Russian Farmer, paid Repub operative, or young and confused...and a sucker. Your corner of Twitter is where it's at.


BerryBoy1969

> Any other post you see discouraging this is a bot, Russian Farmer, paid Repub operative, or young and confused...and a sucker. Yup. You've got it all [figured out.](https://miro.medium.com/max/625/1*FwHBgV2YcD8o1Tnsawq2PA.png) Except the part about the Dems pushing for anything other than what their owners pay them to push for. Their owners aren't about to lose the money they invested in their politicians by letting them actually pass legislation that would have a negative impact on their quarterly profit reports. The only way the things you mistakenly believe the Democrats have the least amount of interest in could become a reality, is if actual progressives [fought](https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/5m8b20/deminvade_what_it_isnt_what_it_is_why_it_makes/) the party that denies them the progress they seek. As it stands presently, the Democrats have no incentive to consider progressive legislation because so called progressives are going to vote for them anyway, after wiping the party's spit off their faces. Good luck in November finding enough suburban Republicans to offset the blue collar refugees Clinton and Obama created with their embrace of capital, to the detriment of the people who's wealth their owners extracted with the legislation they bought.


ZenShineNine

While I agree with 90% of this True progressives know there is only one winner in November regardless of what is said or done. Trump or Biden. You're either going to give yourself a chance to fix what you're bitching about or you're going to push yourself furthur away from what you want. I don't like it and you don't have to like it - but it's our reality. Your vote is going to help your cause or it's not. What's your plan? I'm open to ideas.


BerryBoy1969

> True progressives know there is only one winner in November regardless of what is said or done. Trump or Biden. So which of these two candidates chosen for you to choose between represents progress for a *True* progressive, vs. a pragmatic, incremental party loyalist who believes the slower, but better managed decline in their material conditions the Democratic party represents is progress, when the only comparative measure on offer is the Republican party? > You're either going to give yourself a chance to fix what you're bitching about or you're going to push yourself furthur away from what you want. I can only assume you're referring to my choice of candidates on offer this election season, and that one of them offers a chance to fix what *you* think I'm *bitching* about. As far as I'm concerned, neither of the candidates chosen for me to consider gives me an opportunity to fix what *you* think I'm *bitching* about, so neither candidate will be receiving my vote. You don't have to like it, and I don't have to care, and that's *our* reality. >Your vote is going to help your cause or it's not. You're correct. > What's your plan? I gave you my plan. Apparently you didn't read it, failed to understand it, or don't agree with it. >I'm open to ideas. That's a good thing. Good luck at the polls Zen, see ya there.


ZenShineNine

It sounds like we are in the same situation and want the same things; more or less. I'm going to exercise the only power I have as an American citizen.As much as I don't like it, I will be to vote for Biden. I don't want to do it just like many adult things I must do. I voted for Bernie and he's the closest to my ideals. He's not all I want, but the closest. IMO my action will give us the chance to work on getting things where we want them. Your action of inaction will take us even further away than we are now. Then you'll be back here bitching about the same thins with someone else. If your Freedom of Speech still exist at that point. I'm not sure why you have an angry tone. I get the frustration, I share it, I see the landscape as you do. We are in agreement of 90% of the issues, I'm sure. I bet we're close to the same age even. I don't understand the hostility towards me. Share with me what the logical conclusion of your plan will be. Where do you think you (we) will be if you follow through?


BerryBoy1969

> IMO my action will give us the chance to work on getting things where we want them. IMO *your* action will give *you* the chance to work on getting things where *you* want them, and that's fine. It's your vote, cast it as you wish. There's nothing about a Biden/Harris ticket that would make me believe they're even remotely receptive to taking me anywhere I want to go, so I won't be casting my vote for a ticket I don't support. > Your action of inaction will take us even further away than we are now. How do you process my direct action to deny a candidate I don't support as inaction on my part? I'm quite active politically, even in the Democratic party, but I don't waste my time advocating for their nominee, or any other candidate who's campaigns are financed by the special interests they'll be beholden to if they win, or incumbents who are already feeding at the corporate trough. They already do just fine without my help anyway. The only problem the Democratic party has these days, is that there a lot more voters like myself than they're comfortable with, because they've allowed their owners to use us up and cast us aside. Those of us who lived through the Clinton and Obama administrations have learned the difference between promises and actions. And we haven't forgotten yet. We have Trump today because the Democrats who sang the sweet song of hope and change didn't deliver on any of that change, and Obama's actions to let main street wither to keep Wall St. whole, robbed millions of people of the hope they promised along with the change. And now the perfidious cabal of Corporate Courtesans who operate the Democratic party at their owners behest, promising nothing will fundamentally change, are faced with the realization that they've screwed over more of what once their base than they intended, and their actions in manipulating the 2016 and 2020 primary contests just compounded their problems, so their only alternative is to pivot to the right in an attempt to seduce disaffected Republicans to fill the void they created by abandoning the poor and working class they once took for granted. If voting for this party's nominee is your chance to get the things where you want them, you and I couldn't be farther apart, and that's fine. See ya at the polls Zen.


ZenShineNine

I think my action will get help get closer to getting the chance to do the work for what I want. What I want isnt just for me, it's for my brothers and sisters and their children in our country. I know it will not get me what I want becaus of the Corporatocracy that reigns supreme now, but I know not voting or voting for another party will take me away from that chance. That's about the only, one clear issue in November. That part is simple. How we activate after November and do the work will be hard part. If I'm hearing you right, you're big issue is the Corporatocracy, greed and deceit within the Dem party. I agree with all of it. But that's old news. True Progressives know this. You're really eloquent at framing and reframing the problem we know exists. It's been around for as long as politics. Where we differ is the answer to it in this particular time. I'd ask you to please reconsider you action of inaction because I think this is a window you have..I have..to take on the very issues we want to abolish. Give yourself a chance to do it. Think about what you are for because what you are against is obvious to anyone who cares. If I see you at the poles that'll be a step in the right direction. I'd buy a beer..or whiskey...or a coffee...or a water...


BerryBoy1969

I don't know if you're familiar with Hunter S. Thompson, but here's something he said about the 1972 presidential election, which was the first election was eligible to vote in. Quote: >That’s the real issue this time,” he said. “Beating Nixon. It’s hard to even guess how much damage those bastards will do if they get in for another four years.” >The argument was familiar, I had even made it myself, here and there, but I was beginning to sense something very depressing about it. How many more of these goddamn elections are we going to have to write off as lame, but “regrettably necessary” holding actions? And how many more of these stinking double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote for something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils? >Now with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing this year is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960 – and as far as I can tell, we’ve gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same. >—Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail ’72 The Democrats give me no reason to hope for anything better from them, because they've demonstrated during the entirety of my adult life that they have no interest in improving the material conditions of the American citizen. I, along with the thousands of my compatriots who are joining me, are no longer content trying to appeal to the better angels that don't exist in the leadership ranks of the Democratic party. We'll be spending our time and energies pushing progressive candidates up from the grassroots, and leaving those who serve their corporate masters to win or lose on their own merits. I've spent the majority of my life reluctantly supporting a party I had little faith in. I'll be spending the remainder of what time I have left fighting to make the party live up to it's name, or die trying. Good luck in November Zen, and I mean that, but I've completely run out of any justification I could invent that would make me support the covert collaborators who pretend to represent anyone's interests but their own.


ZenShineNine

Yes! Familiar HST and Gonzo jounalism and let me say i miss that voice so much now. It is needed so bad. Miss Carlin too, Man, these two would be on a tear right now. What's happening w/ this administration is light years more corrupt (blantently) than Nixon's. There's a pandemic that, along with the massive social unrest, is shining a light into all of the glaring holes of the Capitalist goo ball that is America. More are now seeing the reality than ever. It's a wave..a reckoning is coming. The time and energie that have been spent pushing grassroots has worked. Look at NY. Many progressives are unsearing dyed in the wool Dems. It's happening now. I just don't think the momentum is a point to where spliting the vote won't shoot ourselves in the foot. And the consequences will be staggering. If we get 4 more years..man, it has a chance of being like Hong Kong. I know of no one who considers a vote for Biden now as supporting mainstream Dems. It's a vote to get us over the hill to where your energy pushing grassroots will have a payoff. Don't forget down-ballot either. If those Senate votes get split it could be party rule in a 2nd term administration that will finish destroying us. This is a much different climate, so much worse than any generation has seen. Really, I feel partly responsible for the situation we're in now because I did what your planning now in the 2016. Progressive ideas would be much further along with a Dem starting point. Bernie would probably even be on the ballot. I'm considering my vote atonement for what I did. All that said, I do respect your view and understand how and why you feel the way you do. I share it, but splitting the vote is too perilous of a move for me that over-rides any other notion. If you the this administrations last four years where at all treacherous-you've haven't seen nothing yet if there's for more. Supreme court, all judicial appointments, putting corporatists in agencys, and so much more. Doesn't the prospect of that concern you more than anything? PS: Favorite HST quote: "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"


Dsilkotch

The fact that Biden is to the right of Trump on most issues that workers care about. Personally, I’m voting Green.


photochemsyn

Vote for whoever you want to vote for, just realize that unless you’re an affiliate or hanger-on of the oligarch class, then the next administration is going to treat you like useless garbage, regardless of whether it’s Biden or Trump. There will almost certainly be another economic collapse soon, and you’ll be getting your eviction or foreclosure notices while the billionaires get federal bailouts, just as in 2008-2009. If you think your vote matters (and I don’t think it does, much), at least hold off on making a decision until you are marking your ballot. At least that way you might have a chance for force a tiny concession or two from the candidates, although they’ll almost certainly throw all their promises in the trash can the day after the election and bring in the Wall Street CEOs to make policy. What an absolute farce American democracy has become.


shatabee4

Yet Cornel West is going to speak at the People's Party convention and endorse Biden. @CornelWest >“I salute this historic effort to indict the decrepit two party system even as I vote to push the neofascist gangster out of the White House by holding my nose and casting a ballot for mediocre neoliberal Biden. 1/ I'd like to hear West and IceCube hash it out. Ice Cube speaking big truth to power: https://twitter.com/icecube/status/1297171670961192962 "Make them earn that vote. Stop playing with them and they'll stop playing with you."


redditrisi

The question for this generation--and many generations that have preceded this one--is, what *will* "fix things?"


ZenShineNine

Answer= WE will fix it. Do the work. Pick one or two issues that mean a lot to you. Spend some time on it. Ride this wave that's coming after Nov. (as long as Trump doesn't win). The climate has NEVER been like it is now in ANY generation. Vote local, support Progressive candidates. Vote in the midterm. This is what the TEA party did in 2010 and it's a big reason of why it's gotten this bad. I'll say it again. No generation has ever been in such a dire position on so many fronts. Do. The. Work.


redditrisi

Typical VBNMMW response. As though people have not been trying those things and similar things for like forever.


ZenShineNine

Not sure what "VBNMMW" means but I think I get the jist. I agree people have been trying those things forever. I just think the landscape has never been so ripe for the turning point. I just want the chance. If we get four more years, the window closes. Or at best will set us back 25 years. That Supreme Court will be a bitch.


redditrisi

>Not sure what "VBNMMW" means but I think I get the jist. My bad for the typo. It should be VBNMWW. Vote Blue, No Matter What or Who. As for the rest of your reply.... https://old.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/ijbnrc/this_is_the_one_election_that_matters_most_no/


ZenShineNine

Got it. I agree with that post 100% EXCEPT for the fact that this is in no way a climate similar to any previous 4 years. The flaws of Capitalism are on full display during the pandemic. This administration has set the bar for how easy it is to sink us and another four years will be impossible to come back from. Your action in November will either help Trump get re-elected or it won't. I don't like it either. I did what you're about to do last time and I take responsibility for it. I don't know if you have kids, but there is too much on the line. These last four years are nothing like the previous. After November we have to do the work. If the vote is split, we are starting from a point of no return that will take years and generations to get to where we are now. I was you last four year cycle and I kindly encourage you to reconsider.


redditrisi

IOW, while you claim to agree with my post, you really don't. In fact, you obviously didn't even get it, so let me repeat a portion of it. Many of the regular posters in this sub are just as afraid of Biden as they are of Trump, if not more so. > After November we have to do the work. What work and who's "we?" If this a reference to holding Biden's feet to the fire, pardon my spit take. >I was you last four year cycle.... And, as the OP with which you claim to agree stated, most of the posters in this sub were you, not for one Presidential election, but for most of their voting lives, forty or more years in some cases. Same for Debs, DuBois, Vidal and thousands of others. And, with all due respect, many downright brilliant minds among them.


ZenShineNine

I do agree with your post. The fact that our views on how to address the issues in November can differ, but we can still agree on the ongoing and persistent issues. "Many of the regular posters in this sub are just as afraid of Biden as they are of Trump, if not more so." If this is really case I've completely mis-read this sub. What you are saying is that if Hillary (entrenched old school guard, same as Biden- maybe worse) would've won, our country would be in a worse postion than we are now ALONG WITH all the corporatocracy. I find that hard to believe and maybe there should be yes or no poll on this so it's clear to anyone in this sub. IMO we'd be so much further along the progressive path. Just the Supreme Court alone would be so much different than now. The SC affects our lives as much, if not more than elected reps. The prospect of four more years of Trump in his second term with SC seat(s) opening should scare you so much more than the same issues that have always been around. So now you want those same issues PLUS that? It's hard for me to believe this philosophy is that prevelant in this sub. The work: The "WE" I'm referring to are True Progressives who see what' s on the horizon and are going to take advantage of it rather than repeat the same mistake they made last cycle that put us further behind the eight ball. It's happening already. Look at NEw York and all of the long term Dems getting the boot. It will keep happening on the local level too. Trump will feel no effect of this - Biden and the Dems will. Setting us up for a real Progressive candidate in 2020 or a radically shifted Dem party. Your spit take should happen if you don't even get the chance to help this cause. You'll be here in future years posting the same ole thing. And, as the OP with which you claim to agree stated, most of the posters in this sub were you, not for one Presidential election, but for most of their voting lives, forty or more years in some cases. Same for Debs, DuBois, Vidal and thousands of others. And, with all due respect, many downright brilliant minds among them If this is true then they realize the wreck of a situation we're in now coupled with a coming wave of progressive momentum is something they've never seen before in their lifetimes and they won't shoot themselves in the foot. They know they will not get all they want when they want it and, as adults, have to make short term moves to set up for the longterm games. They aren't short-sighted and won't waste all of their previous efforts. One person will win of the two candidates. Unfortunately your voting "to make a statement" will cause more harm to what your trying to acheive. At this point you might as well save all of the obvious reframing of the issues and just come out and say: "I prefer a Trump administration and Supreme Court pick(s) over Biden's" Because right now: It's really that simple.


redditrisi

DR, but my eyes fell on the the last paragraph as I sought the "reply" button. The unintentional irony inherent in your reference to obvious re-framing did make me smile. So, there's that.


ZenShineNine

Okay, I'll take "DR" as Damn Right, then. Now, I'm off to healthy political debate with Redditors that read all of the comments to their posts. Glad you smiled.


TheSingulatarian

Tax the wealthy, put corporate crooks in jail, give workers an ownership position in the profit of their companies, do a better job of screening police forces for racists, do something about global warming, Medicare for all. Create a society that works for all Americans.


redditrisi

The question is what the rest of us can do, given that government doesn't choose to do things that would better the lives of most people, as the tweet in the OP shows.


Cipher_Oblivion

Probably nothing short of bloody violent revolution, and even then the oligarchs have a significant firepower advantage. Our democracy is so decayed its fossilizing at this point, so i don't have much hope for a peaceful solution.


redditrisi

Like you, I have my doubts about the success of even violent revolution. They have not only a firepower advantage, but a planning challenge. I'm relatively certain that the PTB has prepared for a revolution. Not to mention that even planning and organizing in a country this large would be a feat, especially in the Surveillance State. And even assuming a revolution were to succeed, what would happen the next day? The next year? For example, when we invaded Iraq, our military kept order and we ruled by force, while someone wrote an Iraqi Constitution, (theoretically) re-trained the Iraqi military, began setting up a framework for a (theoretically) Iraqi government, etc. And then came Al Qaeda Iraq. Yadda, yadda, we're still not out of Iraq.


MayiHav10kMarblesPlz

Ok. Then let Trump fuck shit up for 4 more years then see where that gets yuh. Lmao. Let me know how much "change" you'll be able to enact in a fascist dictatorship. Let's see what you'll be able to "fix" then. No wonder Bernie is begging for everyone to vote Trump out, because he knows a hell of a lot more about how important this is than all of you...and whoever the hell this twitter warrior is.


TheSingulatarian

I'm not sure what stage of bargaining this is? Anger of Despair.


vagustravels

It was there before T. It will there after. Oh ya, F you. Like really hard.


davdev17

Let me get this straight... You think fascism can be voted out??? Stop being reactionary and think a bit deeper about things.


Slime0

It can be voted out at the last minute while we're still in a democracy that respects the vote, yes. I agree it can't be voted out once it takes hold. That's precisely why it's so important that Trump not win this election.


modsarefascists42

> while we're still in a democracy that respects the vote rofl we just had that joke of a primary, after the Democratic party came out and flat out told us that they wouldn't nominate Bernie even if he won, and you're still clinging to that fantasy? If you don't vote for Hindenburg then you're just giving Germany to Hitler!!!


davdev17

this country has been fascist for a long time. replacing one tyrant with another isn’t going to get rid of fascism. biden would just be blue fascism instead. voting isn’t going to change things.


mc_professorson

This is why I’m voting for Kanye


Observant_Try

He is not the answer, he is running to help Trump plus he most likely will not be on the ballot in all of the states. He is married to a kardashian...


acrazymixedupworld

Obama himself said that if people want systematic change they need to vote in local elections. These have notoriously low turnout and elect important local officials and judges. Democracy is not a one man show.


oskiwowwowwhiskey

Obama was the fucking President of the United States. He had more opportunity to make systematic change than this entire sub put together, x100,000. Fuck Obama. Total fraud.


Observant_Try

You are absolutely right!