By - Rustvii
Oof, that Praetorian Plate relic seems completely insane. Selfless sacrifice is one of the best stratagems in the game, but this seems SO much better. Gonna have to be SUPER careful positioning against that.
Sanguinor: "am i a joke to you?"
*cries in Blood Angels*
If they took victor of the blood games then custodes will just take the Sanguinors only cool rule
>If you read much online Warhammer discussion (and if you don’t, how have you come to be reading this review?) you might have noticed that a faction’s players often react poorly to a new Codex on first read, because many of them seem to believe that the optimal design for a new book is to change nothing about the army they’re already playing while also giving them new and better stuff. Whatever you think of that mindset, my opinion is that this book does a better job than others of striking a balance between refreshing the army without invalidating what came before.
Corrode may as well be @'ing the Custodes subreddit with this one.
I think it sounds really cool and I'm excited to get some sisters kits and another box of bikes to try this stuff out.
I dunno, Custodes has been particularly salty. Genestealers are much more balanced, lots of tau folk are doing excited threads. Thousand Sons were pretty positive too, just going to 2 wounds did a lot.
While ever since the leak that said we were losing the 3++ on shields its pretty much been a death spiral. In almost every thread u/TransbianDia was the lone positive voice. They make the mildest "I think its fine"/"I'm excited" comments and you'll see them sat at -10 in those threads even today.
setting aside the usual doom and gloom, I think the Custodes sub imploding was a consequence of something noted in the goonhammer review
"This codex feels like it’s lacking something I can point to and say “Yeah, that’s Custodes right there, that’s what this army is all about.”
I think that stretches deep into people's minds, whether they know it or not. If your army doesn't have a cool theme/lore rule going on (DG plagues, cult ambush, etc) to hang their hat on and instead it's just a bunch of Goodstuff it's easy to overreact if you seem to be losing Goodstuff because there's no perceived glue that helps it. D2 across the board has to be good on its own, shooting has to be good on its own, etc.
Combine that with how they were good in 8th and workable into 9th compounds that - just like Necrons at the start of 9e, it's hard for ANY codex to swing a hard miss if it's coming to one of the weakest and most armies (GSC, Tau, TS) that desperately wanted an update while Custodes are measuring it against "we're pretty decent right now anyways" and thus have something to lose. Which amplifies the usual doom n' gloom of any codex release that isn't going to the mechanical paupers.
Anyways. Seems like a solid book, I agree with the Goonies that it'd be nice for Custodes to have "Their Thing" other than Super Goodstuff HQs even though that's the thing I like the most about the faction (and why I play them). Custodes are something I think GW has really struggled with to define an identity other than Goodstuff and More Goodstuff and that seems to continue though maybe stances will be more impactful than they seem to gameplay "Feel" on the tabletop. Hopefully the sub will normalize like all the Doomposting does for most codexes.
It seems really hard to get custodes right when in lore they are just better space marines with better imperial tech. So it kinda sucks the air out of the faction.
It's hard to balance a faction that consists of nigh-invulnerable legends second only to the Primarchs in their combat capabilities. Army-wide 3++ invulns and antitank strength combat are pretty lore accurate, and everybody is well aware of how frustrating it was to play against that. Simultaneously, though, they could be completely overwhelmed in game by 60 small bugs using nothing but their tiny claws. Game balance is tough to fit with lore.
This codex would be so exciting if -1D wasn't on basically every model in the game right now.
I really hate Ramshackle.
You do have a good point. I think personally it's borderline impossible to make custodes balanced. It's like the Grey knight debacle on steroids. You have an army that, on an individual level on tabletop, is the crucible of the game and HAS to pay for it. 45 points for your most basic unit (will be ignoring sisters because they still aren't pushed hard enough and just seem like a nice afterthought) that has to shoot as well as they fight while being relevant for the all too important objective game, and being well protected makes a unit a jack of all trades. GW hasn't shown an ability to make jack of all trades viable in this edition imo, certainly not without just being the best at everything like nemesis dreadknight cheese
A big issue is the emphasize on "herohammer" with the custodes. Against most armies you are outnumbered and that is okay. The major doom was two integral things.
8th and then primarily 9th edition are hyper-lethal. We relied on those invulns for they were what kept us in the game. Granted, we got other stuff but we relied on this. At some point most custodes players just accepted that 3++ had to go, it went for all people so there was no point is shedding tears for that.
The true salt came from another development of 9th. And that is the game design being caught in an arms race between weapons profiles trying to compensate the overabundance of ++ and in turn other mechanics suddenly negating weapon profiles because the designers just so noticed that they had shot into their own foot and negated the mechanic they relied upon to create durable units. That is what gave rise to the "reduce damage" meta we are in now. And custodes - the faction that is supposed to be "herohammer" - suddenly found themselves in a very wierd scenario.
"Back then" Toughness 5 and 3 wounds across the board were impressive. Even more so if paired with a crazy 3++. Now we have a meta that cares little for T5 due to the abundance of high strength or the fact that volume of fire is simply enough to push those wounds. Coming to wounds, 3 is nice but there are just so many weapons that deal quite a lot of damage and often they are limited by the amount of shots or attacks they have - but with just a hand ful of miniatures to begin with, that is not a benefit for custodes. A lot of weapons trade REALLY good with custodes. And now that invuln is gone, it had to, I think on that we all have to agree, but in turn custodes did not really get that much of a compensation. The new thing for durable armies is the good old FNP or the new "reduce damage" meta. Aside of dreads Custodes got neither. All this summed up is pretty much the reason for all the doom we had over at the Custodes HQ.
Being left out of the "nu uh, damage goes away" meta a lot of player felt like they had no real tool to tackle that meta with the widespread d2. I mean.. it just feels weird that from the moment it got leaked our reaction to the anti-horde stance was: "Yea, the greatest benefit of our anti-horde stance is a minor benefit against damage reducing elites."
Yeah, you bring up good points and everything custodes are dealing with really is the symptom of the meta. Invulns becoming more common like your basic skitarii troops having it when they really ought off the top of my head is a big problem.
Honestly this was why I wanted to see sisters of silence be more pushed in this codex. If they were pushed up in lethality and durability to be the anvil to the custodes' hammer I think we'd have a healthier book. I think the silver lining for you guys is at least the points update is apparently going to give custodes a bump in power, but if I had to pick armies I'd want to fight, between custodes and GSC? Ignoring the competitive viability, I think i'd have more fun fighting GSC, and I think that's the biggest failure of the codex.
Genestealers were in such a bad place, and have been for ages, it was hard not to be positive about the changes as we saw them happening.
I imagine that's the same with Tau players.
The Tau subreddit is in a buzz like Santa is coming, and he’s bringing Lambos, PS5s, and handjobs. It’s wild.
*frothing at mouth* AND RAILGUNS!!!
Just buckle up for for when we get the point costs and such and they decide that they suck suddenly
Hahaha, we all know we’re going 90 miles an hour down a dead-end street and the Devil is driving the bus. Buckle up, fuckos.
I love the tau subreddit a lot because everyone in it is entirely fatalistic about anything good that happens. “This is awesome!! I can’t wait to find out how it isn’t!”
He's bringing new railguns, almost as good as handjobs!
Instructions unclear, dick stuck in railgun.
Best Reddit comment I've seen all day.
Yeah we tau players are going wild over there it's fun seeing the community so hyped after a whole year of waiting plus a less than fun 8th edition codex
>I dunno, Custodes has been particularly salty. Genestealers are much more balanced, lots of tau folk are doing excited threads. Thousand Sons were pretty positive too, just going to 2 wounds did a lot.
To be fair, the Tau releases have been very good, and they made everyone else salty. This is just the nature of the game. I remember the Admech forum was blowing up prior to the new codex because everything was terrible. We all know how that turned out.
I was in the midst of all of it, and the only thing I saw people being negative about was Cawl and Dakkabot leaks. Pretty much everything else was positively received. Also, admech is no longer a top-tier army. We were kings for a couple months, and then other codexes started getting updated while we got nerfed twice in a row
You forget, complaining is the real hobby. My mate who has a custodes army has played exactly one game and was complaining about the new codex just because of the whining he saw on the custodes sub.
Problem is we had one of the strongest 8th edition codices. We couldn't get the power boost the dumpster fire books are getting, or we would make Drukhari look like Necrons.
People just get jealous seeing all these nice toys other armies are getting and don't realise we couldn't get them on top of what we already had.
Of course there are probably things they could have done to take the edge off (3dmg axes...) but still.
>we had one of the strongest 8th edition codices
That we couldn't use till 9th edition. With how CP was handled in 8th, a ton of our starts were just unuseable. It was only with the change to CP/detachments that we actually had more of codex available for use.
Hell the only lists I really saw for the majority of 8th were Vertus spam lists.
Especially since iirc the army only became great after both the FW units dropped, and the psychic Awakening update happened.
The base book was pretty underwhelming if I remember, other than Bike Captains (Who were amazing in soup) and bikes.
It wasn't an amazing book for most of its lifetime in 8th.
PA really helped to start establishing the identies of the Shield Hosts as subfactions as opposed to flavor text and paint schemes. Although, the other content from that book (the strats and Captain-Commander traits) really did a lot to beef up the units.
I would say the the 8th Ed Codex had the potential to at least be decent (I'd never say the profiles were bad, or that the strats and relics weren't at least decent, or that a few of the Warlord traits weren't good) but with how CP starved the Custodes were, it was nearly impossible for them to be good on their own if you weren't spaming something or souping guard.
The comparison is sisters, which are I believe the two 9th codices that followed a still competitive 8th codex. And if memory serves, a lot of sisters players where quite salty.
i joined the reddit and than the discord around that time. you had some competitive players griping, but most sisters players I talked to were happy their lists no longer had to be 3 rets, some repentia, than start building. There were some logical gripes (you NEED multiple detachments, some units like zephyrim got shafted and that was right) but by and large most people i knew and know were happy.
I've had to stop following the sub at this point, you could barely have a proper discussion about anything without being drowned out by memes or "omg nerfs/gold space marine" complaints.
I think Custodes were one of the better 8e books going into 9th, with the amount of 3++ and Shadowkeepers being able to make nigh-indestructible Telemons. This book basically took those elements and brought them more in line with 9e, and now everyone is saying the book is awful. It seems like it’ll be a good book, around the same strength as some of the better balanced 9e codexes like Death Guard
Tbh there's not been stuff to be hype about, like I'm looking forward to seeing what tricks we can do and I'm sure theres gonna be times where katahs become real strong, but there's not much "oh that's really cool" from the previews.
> Thousand Sons were pretty positive too, just going to 2 wounds did a lot.
the preview week was a rough though. Some of it Games Workshop's fault. They previewed the Cults including mostly stuff that stayed the same, except with the fan favorite Cult of Time spell going up in Warp Charge and not being able to crit, a perceived nerf. It had a lot of players being salty and scared.
Heh, I was channeling some pent up pandemic emotions but thanks for the shout-out :)
None of those subs were happy at first at all. Its absurd.
The ork codex was very obviously a very powerful vehicle codex, and people still freaked and screamed we were nerfed.
Black Templars as well, although they hadn't gotten their own codex since I think 3rd edition.
I’ll be honest, I didn’t even care about the new rules initially, I just got excited to see new sculpts haha
Black Templars really got some incredible models with this release. Highlight of the entire SM range IMHO. Only quibble is I liked the old EC pose of pointing with the sword instead of the "read my inscription" pose he has now.
I know DG and Orks were pretty bad in the lead up, Grey Knights I also think had issues with losing their shooting tools, I thinK Druhkari were happy, TS and GSC have been relatively positive, I forget how Ad Mech, SM, and Sisters reacted, and any Necron player who was bitter has been proven right.
GK players focused a lot on losing Smite Spam, right up until Dreadknight's and Interceptors' costs leaked.
Sisters players were mostly worried about what would gain Core, since a lot of their 8th power came from Auras. Most of of the negative comments there were about the look of the new models or about wielding a halbard in one hand (despite that being a thing in this game since inception).
Necrons weren't bitter about what they were getting (despite being a weaker 9th entry, everything is still miles ahead of the crapfest 8th gave us), they were bitter that SM was getting better stuff. Funny how that turned out... :P
From memory GK was a complete mess even after the book and costs dropped as a lot of players seemed to have grown accustomed to just relying on indirect fire to win them games. Internal balance wasn't great but it immediately pushed their overall strength to the moon and there were people just crying all over the sub haha
Think it was primarily issues with Terminators/Paladins, heck I still see upset older GK players who have a ton of wonderfully painted models that are simply not being used much outside friendly games.
Yeah those were a huge part of the problem no doubt, but quite bizarrely there were a lot of members of various channels complaining that the codex wasn't competitive and that GK were worse off because astral was as good as dead. It is sad to see terminator models where they are at the moment.
Yea GK was definitely salty, and Terminator stuff was a part of it imo:
1) Terminators are really cool. Like... seeing a grey knights terminator model forever ago and realizing this cool looking dude ALSO enabled me to start an army for low $/point is what lured me to the faction.
2) In 8e, the army really wasn't that great (probably bottom 3 before RotD and again once normal marines hit 2 wounds), and relied heavily on cheesy stuff to win - for example, old psybolt ammo + old convergence on a blob of Terminators/Paladins, who, with that combination, were a very real threat in the shooting phase, and who probably just arrived out of a teleport strike/Gate of Infinity and were going to attempt a 9" charge afterwards, but didn't NEED it because hoo boy 40 shots at S6/AP-1/D2 from a BS3 unit is SOMETHING, especially if the GMNDK came to play with Rites of Battle. Then the other GMNDK or a Purgation Squad or something kills a unit through a wall.
3) 9e comes around and says "oh hey, NONE of that works anymore, psybolt ammo doesn't buff Strength OR turn bolters into psi weapons convergence got side-graded to help melee damage output instead, and your Terminators cost the same lmao enjoy that 3rd wound and better melee that you'll totally make it into."
4) "Oh by the way you get some cool new buffs and Brother-Captains have a re-roll wounds aura and stuff now - Paladins can't benefit from it though lmaaaoooooo also they didn't get cheaper. But hey, they can pick their own power, you know, like ALL your units could before now! Worth it. Oh, oh yea, that's a thing too, no more customizing all your dudes' powers based on how you plan to deploy them, have fun rerolling wounds in melee with your Heavy Support units lol."
Not gonna lie, it felt very "we know every GK player owns 1000+ points of Terminator-armored models and two NDK chasses they play as Grand Masters, time to shell out $$ for the other boxes guys."
...Then we saw our points values and 4++ garden-variety NDKs and the fact that the psychic power Interceptors were stuck with was quite good, actually, and it was like "well, OK, I *guess*" but even now, while playing an A+ tier point-and-click army, it's hard not to miss the silly gimmicks with the cool dudes. Especially since I had to buy 2 boxes of strike squads and hexfire to make my list fit the meta lmao, I only owned 20 power armor models. The cool dudes that drew me to the faction are a nice conversation-starter piece on my shelf next to my Land Raider and Inquisitor Coteaz at the moment.
I'm pretty much there with you. My whole reason for getting GK was that I wanted an all-terminator army (and a) this was before Deathwing could reasonably do it and b) my buddy runs DA so I didn't want to).
So I still have an all terminator army (plus one GMNDK and one NDK) and I've not gone out to buy more NDKs nor have I gone into the PA chassis. I also don't take my GK to tournaments and I enjoy the challenge of trying to get an even w-l ratio in beerhammer games while wondering if/when GW will Balance Dataslate my beloved Terminators out of obscurity. :D. Honestly, I'm contemplating switching to gold and getting my 2+ chonk boyz that way.
I actually \*don't\* mind most of the things you said about the codex, though. The locked-in powers (for me at least) generally make sense and make the game more smooth / easier to decide what to do. The Astral Aim stuff I always just had really bad luck with anyway; I had the classic VenDread who managed to rarely damage anything in spite of 2+ RR1's on the hits. Not saying I don't empathize with the loss of that option, just that it hasn't impacted my game at all.
I'm sure most grey knights players didn't see themselves using 4 or even 5 of one of the most ridiculed models in the entire game.
Seriously, my only quibble with the Necron rules was that the doomsday cannon kept D6 shota D6 damage. Was really hoping for D3+3.
The thing with necrons is it has really good units but it needs the support to bind them together.
Ork player, cried the sky was falling when the 9th codex dropped because of the changes to boyz and morale. Still think it has tbh, core identity of my army has changed from boyz to vehicle heavy lists (kill rigs/buggies/planes). Its changed how it plays dramatically and caused a lot of pain for my wallet to remain competitive (competitive subreddit after all).
Back to the point, Ork codex didn't strike a good balance between previous and new styles of playing. That's what irks me about it all.
Anyway rant over, been having some success with a 2 trukks and 2 kill rigs with 4x10 boyz.
Except for AdMech. Our reaction was basically “how the hell is this so OP, who approves of this book?”
Probably the most disappointing Codex of 9th
It was getting really out of hand over there. Some of the "memes" got disturbing.
While I don't find this codex to be particularly interesting ( which means I simply won't buy it and focus om my salamanders and necrons while.letting my.custodes sit in their cabinet until I eventually repaint them ) The custodes sub is just flat out unbearable as of late. Like yea, I don't find it to be a fluffy book like DE or DG, but it's fine rules wise
This kind of reaction is true of pretty much every forum ever.
The thousand sons sub was decidedly happy with our codex, if Magnus wasn’t trash tier the codex would have been a 10/10 success in my book, as is it’s pretty close to perfect imo
"yes we have noticed that Sisters and Custodes units don’t share a Faction Keyword other than IMPERIUM for Battle Forging, but we expect a very swift FAQ to the GT Mission Pack army construction rules to allow this"
Well done GW
They also have literally ONE interaction for auric weapons currently.
One stance. To either give it +4" or double shoot.
The auric weapons? Infantry Axes, spears, swords.
Literally meme guns.
Better than "Wolf Guard" in Space Wolves. Keyword literally gives nothing to the unit and only keeps one troop unit from doing what we wanted them to do anyway.
Woah woah woah, hold on there, the keyword let's you pay CP for a strat that gives a blood claw unit extra exp when they kill a unit IN CRUSADE.
That's honestly more insulting than just having it do nothing.
Have you heard of "Walkerz"?
It's a keyword from the Ork codex, which applies to Deffdreads, Killa Kans, Stompas and the fat belly robots nobody plays.
The only reference of this Keyword in the entire codex is on the Squighide Tires Custom Job and states "Walkerz models can't take this".
They have at least one additional one in the Crusade rules.
Rapid Salvoes (Battle Trait)
> Instead of following the normal rules for Rapid Fire weapons, models in this unit shooting Rapid Fire auric weapons always make double the number of attacks.
I mean well damn that would be nice to have in regular games. Oh well.
Always shooting twice? Yeah, I don't know if that would be balanced.
uhhh...most of our units are 3 guys?
So...12 shots? str4? Oh no?
Running a huge blob of stodes is still SUPER dangerous.
I guess a 6 man alluras squad now would dump a whooping...24?
Dunno that sounds pretty...ok-ish.
Maybe it could be balanced. The Strength is low, the shot count isn't high or low, but D2 is real damage unless the target can reduce it.
I might be overwhelming to marines out of cover? Otherwise, not much else cares.
And here I was almost actually ordering it, before I was thankfully reminded how little care GW puts into their physical books. Wahapedia it is.
Imagine being a billion dollar company and not to willing give a decent editor a job
I mean... its sadly very common in the "Nerd Niche Hobby Universe".
*glances at WotC*
Luxury hobby, though, amiright?
Watch that be by design lol. Ridiculous
“This codex feels like it’s lacking something I can point to and say “Yeah, that’s Custodes right there, that’s what this army is all about.”
But yes the flavor of this book seems off like something is missing / is this really the special rule custodes get? Does not seem that flavorful
Isn’t this sort of endemic to the design of Custodes? They were just made to be “most badass” of an arms race of “cool badass imperium” stuff GW knows sells. They don’t have much character from a gameplay perspective aside from having 2+ on a lot of stat categories.
Yeah. Their thing is 'What if your basic unit was a space marine captain?'
How was it described to me once? Something like: Marines are an army of wolves; Custodes are an army of lions.
That's the hook I really wish they'd get right. Less unit cohesion and more "this is one GIANT Kill Team going up against a 40k Army and each and every one of them is a threat that cannot be ignored."
most people dont want to see 7 basic bog standard infantry models beating your army into oblivion
Yeah but ask the other guy and I bet the opinion is different. ;)
Plus it sounds like "basic bog standard" should never apply to Custodes infantry. Give them more dynamic poses, redo them as Truescale, make them all stand out.
They're an army of HQs wearing Troop choice masks and don't even have a single Tactical Rock amongst them.
Yeah, perhaps others will prefer that. The only other comparison is Knights, and with Knights at least they are impressive, BIG models. But I would realistically want neither custodes or knights as a faction I fight say, every week or 2 at my FLGS.
The problem is that this is impossible to get balanced.
You basically propose a Knight army with small models that are easy to hide and have an powerful "all or nothing" obsec (unless you want an army that is powerful but cant score at all)
That is the trick, isn't it.
I don't know. With the "Giant Kill Team" thing in mind, maybe Custodes Infantry start counting as 1, and grow by 1 for every unit they kill or wound they deal? So a Custodes Guard unit comes out counting much bigger for OpSec after a fight or two. It would incentivize aggressive play, be a unique feel for the Custodes, match the lore fantasy of a Killteam style force disrupting an Army, etc etc.
Eh, maybe not.
Honestly the most boring faction to me.
They were never meant to be a faction. A couple hundred dudes guarding a throne is not an "army".
Fluff wise, there is nothing they do that isn't covered by space marines or Inquisition. Mechanically, Grey Knights are the elite 2+ army.
No reason for them.
It’s very silly to read the GK and Custodes fluff side by side with each trying to one-up the “super elite alpha selection and training and heroism” from the space marine codices.
There are 10,000 Custodes in lore, not a couple hundred. They're 10x larger than any particular SM chapter for the most part.
There are now. That was a retcon.
They always had been that big. At least it was heavily implied but not confirmed.
For as much lore as we had before their release, the Custodes basically served as the "in-universe" McGuffin why Terra could not be attacked by the ton of "apocalyptic" threats within the 40k narrative, keeping the setting running.
Just because it was re-written doesn't take away from the fact it is now lore accurate.
It's circular reasoning. They were released during the cash grab years and never should have been a faction.
The reasoning that they should be a faction is that their are 10k of them which is bigger than a space marine chapter.
But they retconned the lore to make them that big so it was more reasonable that they were a playable faction.
Would you rather me say they never should have retconned the lore and made them a playable faction so that you can understand what everyone else doesn't need spelled out?
We are call coping with the extra factions released during the cash grab years and the fact that we will never have balance because there are just too many armies in the same niches to be unique.
Ad Mech armies are mostly new, GSC armies as they exist are mostly new, unique codex Death Guard, unique codex Thousand Sons, etc.
The game changes. The game's never been balanced, but they've made more changes for dynamic balancing now than ever (not enough changes, but the fact that many of these updates now exist is a step in the right direction). There's more people playing the game than ever before following the "cash grab years".
Custodes are fine. Balance is another problem, and they can afford to rebalance the game more frequently, but the bigger problem, *unlike the idea that new things are bad*, is that they're stuck in the past and don't want to go pure digital with rules yet. Points changes should be quarterly and free alongside the dataslates, for example (they specifically said that the points changes in the first dataslate were an exception, they don't want to make it the norm and want to keep it tied to the Chapter Approved print cycle).
40k, everything better than everything else.
In the lore, there are more Custodes than Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves combined.
If the chapters were following the Space Book then there would be more Custodes then founding chapter space marines lol
Maybe, maybe not, depends on how you do head counts for groups like the Space Wolves and Dark Angels.
It's pretty safe to make that assumption. But there are probably more sons of Sanguinius than Custodes (but maybe not after Devastation of Baal), and there are *definitely* more sons of Guilliman or sons of Dorn than there are Custodes. Hell, there are probably more Black Templars than there are Custodes lol.
Like I said, it depends on how you do headcounts. With groups like the Space Wolves, they are expressly non-compliant with the dictates of the Codex Astartes (when it used to matter). While the Dark Angels just pretend to be Codex Compliant (with a ton of "succesors" being fleet based out of the Rock IIRC).
In universe, there was probably around 8-12k Space Wolves alone muking about the universe (this is a ballpark estimate, there is never an express number given for how many Marines are in each of the Great Companies) on the low end. With the Dark Angels, honestly just count their succesors and thats about how many of them there are.
That was a retcon though. They originally were much smaller.
Not sure that’s true. Space Wolves aren’t a codex chapter, and in the lore isn’t there supposed to be around 12k of them?
Based on my slightly old codex. 12 companies each the size of a codex chapter.
You are getting downvotes but you are right. They never should have been an army, maybe an inquisition like add on.
Its almost like half their datasheets arent even in their codex.
Back then a major emphasize was on our stat-lines and people gasping when there was a squad of pseudo-captains running around.
In 9th your statline is pretty much worthless and a unit can't be measured by its data sheet alone. Strats and buffs are where its at. Who cares for S5 or T5 if you reroll or +1 anything?
I think it’s the Katah system. Doesn’t fit, IMO. It’s waaaayyy to restrictive. The Marine Doctrines are explained away by their mental conditioning. There’s no reason for the Custodes to have such a clunky “you must now advance stances” system.
The Katah system is supposed to be that, and honestly it DOES do that really well, it's just super hard to "Get" it because the Katahs sound like a kind of synchronized dance routine instead of, essentially, football playbooks that the boys in gold have drilled millions of times over. The Aleya and Valerian novels show this extremely well, there's an instance in there describing Valerian and his shield unit attacking some cultists. It describes them as fanning into formation without so much as a signal, each brother so practiced and perfect in their timing that they don't even worry if their shieldmates will be there when they're supposed to be, they KNOW they will be. The Katahs are supposed to represent this, you survey the battlefield and before even meeting with the foe you already know exactly what you need to do in the order you need to do it, flipping like a switch between different bonuses.
Honestly though that's a really hard schtick to try to get right in the rules. Being so perfectly practiced that the complete chaos of battle is actually a synchronized routine for you and your team isn't really easy to translate to + and - stats. I'd chalk this up more to the designer biting off more than they could realistically chew rather than them not trying.
Interesting turn of phrase given that katah presumably come from kata which, from what I've heard, were used to skirt post-WW2 bans on Japanese martial arts practice by saying they were traditional dances.
Still. A rule that puts everyone into anti-vehicle mode, because other Custodes units at the other end of the battle fight vehicles and the squad facing the cultists now can't use their anti-horde stance, because they can't think for themselves which stance would be ideal is the *exact opposite* of how Custodes armies are described.
They should've gotten a much more individualistic army rule. And if the author wasn't given time to think of one himself and just needed to copy an existing one, he shouldn't have copied the one meant to invoce the image of hordes of mindless robot zombies, but maybe a reskinned version of Khraradron Overlord individual heroic actions or *something*.
1, it's really unfair to compare Katahs to Command Protocols, the only similarity is you pick the order before the game and the army was designed with swapping stances multiple times mid game in mind where as Necrons were not.
2, I never said they wrote the rule well, quite the opposite. I think they couldn't have written the rule well, it was a fools errand. I can see what they were going for, I get the idea, it didn't work and I don't think it could have.
This does nothing to discourage my feeling that Ka'tahs sound like the least Custodes themed thing they could have gone with for an army wide thing.
Not anything new to customers, made up caste system for the inferno book was so weird
I dont think it is that different with them being in Himalayas in the 30k, maybe something like a regional post apocalyptic eastern influenced martial art could be slowly introduced as a retcon.
The problem is this dropped out of blue without any precedent. Also Custodes work alone and in tandem with SoB on the battlefield and when I hear about kata I imagine people exercising in unity etc.
Its not the martial art side of it, its the rigid entire army going through the motions when Custodes are much more individualistic. I think every unit picking a style and being able to do each stance one per game is more in line with their theme then the army doing A then B then C.
That would be a nightmare for booking keeping…
Ok so Unit 1 and 4 are in Stance A, 2 is in C, and 3 is in B.
Next turn 1 and 3 are in C now, with 2 in A and 4 in B.
The turn after 1 and 4 are in C, 3 is now A, and 2 is B.
Now imagine if they'd gone true Custodes, and done it model by model.
True Custodes would be each unit having 1 model each.
Yeah, that would've been a terrible implementation. But they could've done a good implementation as well.
Give every Custodes unit 2-3 stance markers and at any point, a unit can spend one to gain X benefit for the phase, like advance & charge or anti-horde sweeps.
There. Units always have a bonus they need. It looks like they can think for themselves and it's not more complicated than miracle dice.
>Its not the martial art side of it, its the rigid entire army going through the motions when Custodes are much more individualistic.
This is it, you hit the problem right on the head. The thing they were going for was to try to emulate how Valerian describes his shield acting in those novels, their movements so practiced and perfect, drilled through years of blood games, that what looks like a wild chaotic brawl is something that those custodians have already practiced over and over.
At the same time though there is NO POSSIBLE WAY you could ever write that into the rules that doesn't, at the same time, feel like it's going directly opposite to the core theme of each custodian being a hyper individualized fighter. That practiced drill likely depends on each of them being a hyper individualized fighter, but how do you take "We are at the same time perfectly synchronized but also unique and special snowflakes" and translate that into rules? They probably should have focused more on the latter in hindsight.
"It is by no means broken, but don't worry, guys, you have some really good options that become apparent with multiple games. Don't be a doomer."
"We are literally trash tier." - 90% of Reddit's Custodes players.
As someone who has painted his whole army Shadow Keepers, I am incredibly excited to use their shield host abilities in a game. My friend's horde lists are going to absolutely hate it, and that makes me excited. Lockwarden is just straight up vile now too.
Reddit literally complained about Drukhari being trash tier when the previews and the dex dropped. The opinions of most of the armchair generals on the interweb are absolutely worthless.
The uproar over the wtc maps is probably my favourite given that 90% of players probably won't go near them anyway and even fewer play in the wtc
Just look at the post with the most comments this week and you'll see that a good 1/4 of this sub hasn't played a game of 9th and 3/4 have never been to even an RTT. The actual competitive knowledge here is nearly nill
Truer words have rarely been spoken. Its the same in my local WhatsApp Group. The loudest whiners and complainers are the ones who play almost never. Hell, we had one dude who had not played a SINGLE game in 9th and all of TWO games in 8th explaining to me why his opinion about the tournament meta were correct, in direct contradiction to all data and "chumps" like Richard Siegler and Nick Nanavati. Hilarious.
Are you based in the USA? That's basically our thing: strong positions staked out on the basis of having watched a single YouTube video that convinced you of an opinion you already held, and damn the experts!
Personally I feel that seems to be the Warhammer subs on Reddit in general at times. Some people don't play, don't read the lore and don't paint, just post memes and watch rubbish lore videos.
They somehow feel like that gives them really in-depth knowledge of painting, lore and competitive games enough to form a very strong opinion.
Yeah agreed. The sub is definitely a bit of an echo chamber and at this point I almost just pop in here for laughs at there are so many bad takes dominating the discussions.
Yeah you'll see some bad posts crop up from time to time, but I think the sub itself is alright. If you look at the sub expecting anything more than some semi competitive perspective analysis of the meta/lists poppin around though, yeah you'll be dissapointed.
I've played three games this year, that's way less than it wanted, but I see the same with my friends who've played no games this year and maybe 1 game through out all of 8th. They're complaining and saying "I'm going back to 4th edition when the game was good".
And Thousand Sons was broken OP and GK was bad.
It’s almost like 90% of people are not very good at making their original interpretations of the rules.
In my experience the people with the strongest, most one sided opinions (Army xy is ultra OP/Army xy is absolute trashtier) are the ones who play once in a blue moon. People who play often usually have way more nuanced opinions, because they have actual experience to base them on.
Or, more charitably, it’s really hard to predict how good or bad a codex will be based on the leaks and even first read. Takes a bit of hands on experience and experimenting to know.
The worst is now that we have points and everything else, they aren't bad at all...
So funny that the Splintermind podcast literally shut down because the hosts were so upset with the Drukhari codex
While I haven't paid attention to the salt on reddit, my local Custodes player is less upset about competitive viability and more that the Codex makes them so similar to Marines.
I'm super excited about the versatility with 2 warlord traits for your characters!
My gripe, aside from the missing 3d weapons, is just the loss of identity. The strats are rebaked marine strats, so are some of the secondarys, the mechanic is convoluted and a necron copy. I'm not saying the book is doomed or trash, altho I agree with the one reviewer that 2+ t5 just isn't what it used to be (looking at dg toughness and especially the matchup). Ita just missing the identity id like to see from the army, as other armys have gotten their flavour.
To me, the issue with the Custodes identity wasn't really the defensive profile, it was the offensive one.
T5/3W/2+/4++ is a statline I think befits Custodes. Especially in the 4+++ against MWs shield host. They didn't really need to be tougher.
They just didn't really have the offensive side. I don't know if the book has fixed that. 2D is nice (better than d3 for sure, even with the existence of - 1D, that varience on your basic melee weapon felt crap.). Not sure if it entirely fixed it.
I think they should have copied the 30k coherence rules. Make it so a Custodes unit can spread guys 3'' out or something. That would have captured the lone wolf idea.
But, I'll have to play to see how it feels. The army flavour basically comes down to if a basic Custodian feels like a Custodes should - killy AND tough as other armies elites.
Agreed. Although in a meta that gets more lethal every book, custodes don't feel that much tougher anymore, the wet noodle that is their offense is a gripe. D2 is of course generally preferred as it kills Marines instantly and the like but die general absence of d3 aside from characters is annoying. I'd like the axes to either have a strat or d3+1 dmg just for some advantage. The book seems alright, its just the flavour that got lost for me and still some missing punch on the terminators.
Do we know if they got the extra wound? I've read different very conflicting things about who and what gets the extra wound. Bikes yes, guard and terminators no? I'm confused.
I’ll agree that axes should have gotten D3 to make them a viable and interesting alternative to spears.
I guess the way I'd describe it, Custodes should be in a place where for a basic Custodes:
The elite enemy things that are tougher than them (Blightlords say due to - 1D), should not be as killy as them.
The elite things that are killier than them (e.g. Incubi day) should not be as tough as them.
That's the spot they should be in. The basic Custodian shouldn't be the killiest or toughest thing in the game, but nothing should be as much of each as a Custodian is. Defensively they're there.
Offensively, maybe an extra attack was needed? Or a sweep mode on the Guardian Spear? D3 on the Axes as well I guess?
Yeah I agree with your points. I think we're pretty much on the same page there, you put it well with the comparison.
I think a big issue is just the 40k melee stats. This would be fairly easy to do in AOS where you'd have a bunch of different options with their own attacks/wounds/damage values, but 40k restricts the design space. This is more or less fine with other armies because they can play with the number of models more easily but that doesn't work with custodes.
Realistically custodes spears should probably be 3 d2 attacks or 5 weaker sweeps, and the axes could be 2-3 damage 3 attacks. With the reduced model count the individual options should have been a little more complicated.
To be fair, Goonhammer call Deathwatch one of the best marines when their supplement drop, only for them to do jackshit for 9 months while other marines get top 4 placing.
And then they spent 6 months after that being top tier. It was always a good supplement it just took people time to find a mix that worked
I'd hardly call them top tier, but definitely good tier with one solid list. With that said, I don't think slapping Deathwatch traits and relics onto a dreadnought list stolen from the greater Space Marines codex, and calling it a day really qualifies the supplement as "good". It's like saying that Necrons had that one triple Doomsday Ark, triple Doom Scythe in 8e that was solid, so really, it was a good codex. Especially now that you consider that Black Templar is just as good at buffing dreadnoughts, but also arguably better at other things.
And they turned out right once people who knew what they were doing started bringing them to tournaments
It turns out, putting 5++s on Redemptors is all it takes to make Deathwatch competitive.
People turn to them because Attack Bike and Plasceptors got nerfed big time. And with Drukhari being oppressive Marine couldn't try to play the trade game anymore and opt for more dread with -1d to try and outlast them.
They also argued that Blood Angels losing their identity and tools was perfectly fine because space marines are really good and then Blood Angels went on to be almost Imperial Fists tier bad because their tools were what made the army work.
I'm curious as to how that secondary will play, as whilst stuff like the gk/de ones are busted this feels like a very fun secondary but weird.
Like "kill the biggest thing in melee" will be a right ballache in plastic but teleporting in a telemon/achillus might make it a free 15vp.
Keen to get some games in with bikes, I've religiously used them for a year and the goon hammer team seems real psyched about them, but from my experience they never do as much in melee as an almost 300pt unit should. Possibly the new durability buffs will help
They're capable in melee, and every bike packing a dark lance is a big attraction. The secondary is interesting - it won't always be good but it'll often be worth looking out for an opportunity to use it
It'll be great vs knights. Or at least vs castellan knights. They're gonna be in the backfield most of the game and easy deepstrike target.
Are you sure? A Castellan will probably be able to kill a few Custodes units before going down, therefore decreasing the VP scored.
It’s similar to Black Templars’ one and it plays for 7 and something on average. Not great, not terrible, I suppose and will find play in some rare cases.
My big question is will they be competitive without FW. Almost all the past top lists used FW which is unfortunate.
Unfortunately the FW stuff fills a lot of holes in their plastic line (i.e. good heavy support). The plastic line has a really hard time popping transports and killing vehicles.
Unlike before I don't think lists are going to be 80% FW. Id expect it to be closer to 40-50% after the FW faq.
Even then, FW stuff, outside of dreads, is not great at popping vehicles in terms of efficiency. Haven’t they nerfed venatari by taking away superior fire patterns? That was a crutch heavily used by many lists.
Only time will tell. It will take a matter of weeks to months until the best builds have been identified and deployed.
100% no, they will not.
I really like the Emissaries Imperatus. Seems solid overall to me. At worse a side grade but to me it feels better seeing as they are a more well rounded army.
"The sentinel blade is shorter ranged than the sentinel blade".
I see you've hired GWs editor. :)
And I'm confused. The leaked pages show axes being the same cost as spears, while the review claims they're still 5 points extra (which would make them even more worthless). I hope that's GW guest editor, again.
Fixed the blade thing, thanks - the cost thing is meant to mean that the \*models\* are 5pts more than regular custodians, but I can see how the wording is confusing, tightened it up!
It's not enough that you provide some of the most amazing 40k content out there, you guys are also super active in threads here discussung your articles. Thank you for what you do for the hobby
One of my favorite things is that everyone keeps crying about Eternal Penitent getting changed, but now you can just take your Dreadstodes list and put it in Dreadhost and you get the important half of the stratagem but army wide and for free with no other changes necessary and much less CP spent. I unironically think all the doomsaying is just the people who jumped on our bandwagon in 9th because we're the only highly placing codex that isn't solidly in the "Kinda OP" category. They're literally the semi-competitives who know just enough to know THEIR army is going to be worse, but not enough to see what list options have opened up as a result.
As somebody who has been playing Custodes non-stop and nearly exclusively from release to now I am extremely excited and absolutely disgusted by the behavior of the community during the preview season. Give me the downvotes, I couldn't care less. I'll keep them next to my body oil and spanx as an honorary shrine to my boys' glorious golden abs.
Worst case I will just load up an orion with herohammer and a dread for the ultimate murderbus.
Only wish it had the machine spirit keyword
Preach brotha. Oil dem abs.
Agree with Wings that both Trajann and Emperors chosen is a bit too pushed. Also we all know there should have been some way to ignore -1 damage. Otherwise I really like the codex and am excited to play it.
Valerian doesn’t ignore -1 damage. He ignores FNP and per phase wound caps like on a c’tan
I just can't see this codex making waves, it also feels incoherent to lore, especially the fighting styles stuff. Custodes have been described multiple times as individually peerless warriors who each fight their own personal war on the battle field.
I think it would have been fine for this codex not to have army wide rules and just additional buffs to baseline stats.
As with previous editions the factions competitive viability rest with forge world models.
I also think this is another example of rules bloat out of control.
The more I read it, the more I like it.
My chief complaint is that the katah system seems completely foreign to how Custodes would actually operate, but they shoehorned it in because now everyone needs a Space Marine Combat Doctrines equivalent. And even as they added this silly new system (that seems decent rules-wise) they stripped so many of the unique Custodes flavor, especially strategems. All this is on top of the e fact that we’ll be picking up units way more often than we should because of a loss of resilience that was balanced with point drops. I am excited to try out new builds but… ew. Not a fan of the flavor of the book.
I love T1 Alphas and Pre Game moves.
Instead of min squads of 3 bikes, I'm looking at 6 bikes with a pre game normal move, a bike cap that can advance and charge, and a custom Allarus Cap beatstick with the Plate to HI teleport turn 1.
I wonder if its worth losing Tides and however much the AC lose to soup this with BoV GK for more pre game moves, and T1 shunts/Gates.
Who needs Drop Pods!
Edit: Single mini Allarus units. How I wished that was a option with the old Codex.
AC lose Katahs, and remember as well the Plate only allows you to teleport on your OPPONENT'S turn, during the Heroic Intervention strep. He's not participating in melee your first turn.
Enemy first turn is still ok for me!
I personally am disappointed by the codex, I think the codex will be decent enough power wise but it doesn't feel custodes.
The katah system is just copy paste command protocols and strategems are overwhelmingly uninspired either being copy paste from space marines or just different ways to get +1 to something instead of ways to plan your army like old teleport homers.
The inability to mitigate -1d just hurts when the obvious tactic of ignoring damage reduction on auric weapons is right there and would make the keyword more than just a way to explicitly exclude forge world rapid fire and pistol weapons.
The shields are just meh and the -1 to hit in melee strat is just insulting when that should have been included in the shield as an ability.
> katah system is just copy paste command protocols
Having played Necrons a bit this edition, I think this is an inaccurate characterization. CP are *significantly* lower benefit compared to the katahs, have a lot more gates to being able to gain even that benefit, and lack the flexibility in-game that the katahs apparently have. The only thing they really have in common is the idea that there’s a set you pick from pregame and then two you select from off each in a given turn.
Katahs are command protocols after GW has had a chance to use necrons as the beta test.
Enjoy having an updated version and I hope the collective sacrifice of the 'cron faction was worth it :)
That was Admechs system. This is like if they got high and asked if they should combine SM doctrines and Command Protocols into some weird malformed child.
If I can ask, what should custodes feel like?
So way more than you asking for but here is just my thoughts/how I would construct a codex that feels custodes (feel free to ignore it's just fan-dexing)
Look at the blade champion.
That. Those three sword stances are the MOST custodian thing ever.
Fight a horde? Use blender tactics. Fight elites? Cut their heads off. Fight a monster or tank? Shank um.
That's what custodes should feel like (though with a 2+ armour) because emperor knows why he didn't put on his gold pants.
Take away the 3++ save, leave it at maximum of 4++
Take away the martial ka'tahs completely.
Points increase even for infantry needed since they would be able to fulfil so many roles now.
Start of every custode turn? Every UNIT picks one of those three stances, Maybe make 3 ranged stances and 3 defensive stances? Remember can't use more than one stance at a time to start to tune this (I've also tried to build in logical draw backs to each stance and I still feel the 3 blade masters stances may need to be tuned down too, but I love where gw's head was at with his profiles):
1. Stance: salvo fire unit cannot have moved in the movement phase (includes deep strikes), fire twice. Cannot perform overwatch in enemy charge phase
2. Stance: Overwatch fire during the opponents movement phase, automatically each unit in this stance may select unit that deepstrikes or comes on board in los within range with weapons fire at normal ballistic skill and weapon profile. A unit that elects this stance may not perform shooting in the owning players normal shooting phase once this stance is selected.
3. Concentrate fire: Each eligible model fires once regardless of weapon profile for number of shots, but increases either 1 ap, or 1 damage (rest of the weapon profile stays the same)
1. Aegis stance: -1 to incoming damage in both shooting and combat phase, this unit cannot make pile in moves.
2. Parry stance: enemy units reduce their number of attacks by half rounding up. The unit engaged in this stance reduce their attack profile by 1 while in this stance and cannot interrupt the opponent with any unit in parry stance.
3. Desperate Objective defensive stance: Custodes hold any objective within range regardless of the number of enemy units also on the objective.
Not locked to a certain ka'tah with your entire army. Not inflexible stances that have to rotate. Just throw one of 9 tokens on each unit you have and that's what it's doing.
Just start of a turn, assign each unit a stance. Use CP or warlord ability to change a unit's stance.
Maybe wardens can have two active stances at once to represent their more elite nature and give them more utility? Hmmm
Anywho. That's what I would like my stodes to FEEL like. Lions. Packs of lions.
Thank you so much for your time on this. I appreciate it.
> The inability to mitigate -1d just hurts when the obvious tactic of ignoring damage reduction on auric weapons is right there and would make the keyword more than just a way to explicitly exclude forge world rapid fire and pistol weapons.
My biggest beef.
Reading a lot of these comments and my only thought is, "Man, a lot of Custodes players really just want us to tell them what they already believe or want to hear"
My second thought was, "lol no"
They already made up their minds before the book even dropped.
There are definitely some problematic comparisons though. Mining equipment being more effective than anything in the entire custodes codex does appear a bit off.
Personally, I think GW could have gone a bit more experimental with custodes, and really like how they handled GSC. But we’ll see how it all plays out.
Put on your waders and venture into the custodes sub, it's delightful.
This feels less like a review and more like a promotion.
Absolutely. Goonhammer suffers from this, in my opinion. They publish both pointed opinion columns and ad-like reviews. Is it based on the people who write the pieces? Some balancing act between being critical and losing GW early access and love?
Well it is a website of people who spend large amounts of their own time writing free content about a hobby because they love it. Not exactly shocking that they’re enthusiastic about it?
Frankly that's one of the reasons I like it. Its one of the few online hobby places I've found where the tone is 'Check out this cool thing' and not just people be relentlessly miserable and negative about it all.
Since ultimately, as a hobby, its meant to be fun.
Completely agree. Valid criticism is always a good thing, but relentless salt just takes something that is supposed to be enjoyable and makes it unpleasant.
I think of everything in discussions about the new codex, a rejection of the Martial Ka'tah's is probably the most surprising. There 's a thread of fixation on Custodes as individual superlative warriors that wouldn't be bound by shared doctrines. But players have already accepted the existence of Shield Company rules, and there isn't a similar rejection of their new subfaction traits.
It is very different. Shield hosts are organizations specialized in certain tasks, whereas katas are military tactics. The rigidity involved in them is inexplicable: why do they have to follow that rigid choreographic sequence, for the entire army? It is not only lore inappropriate, but also tactically unsound. It makes no sense no matter how you look at it.
But the Shield Hosts are a set of tactics too. Choosing one cuts off the advantages of another, and each Custodes sacrifices individual preference to operate as part of the whole. There's already a step away from the individual.
The Custodes are master strategists. They select the Ka'tah's they know they'll need to defeat their foes, who will be helpless before them. It's not rigid, but execution of a battle plan by demi-gods who've already foreseen victory.Pretty easy to create a lore appropriate excuse.
Except that it isn’t. Specialization is normal and a sound approach. Deciding the katas in the game, ahead of the enemy move, is just a bad idea. Even if custodes used something like this, it would be at a smaller level (squad), based on the situation, and certainly not conditioning several turns of the battle. Because we don’t know what the other player will do. The lore justification you manufactured is confusing a meme (wherever custodes fight, a victory is marked ahead in the imperial annals) with the reality of the game.
Hey look, more ignore Invulnerable Saves. Surely this is good for the game. /s
Im sad that I cant deep strike 2 dread with 3D6 charge+ reroll anymore