T O P

Meta Monday: 10/25/21

Meta Monday: 10/25/21

oldbloodmazdamundi

Nice to see pure Harlequins still being able to place.


bukenshi

It was harlequins with craftworld fire support in the Stud or Snotling.


oldbloodmazdamundi

Yeah but Goonhammer has them as 5-1


neworecneps

That SoCal final game... Oooooft.


Fordel-Prime

Was it another turn one and done?


neworecneps

Yep, Orks tabled Drukhari T1 even though they went second.


pritzwalk

Orks just getting their entire army in your face in 1 turn with waaagh and then getting +1 to hit from freebooters is pretty rough to deal with.


ssssumo

The Freebooterz +1 to hit really screws with the maths when you have so many shots happening. Looking at the list I did a very rough count of how many shots they can do in Dakka range. 90 from the warbikers, 60 from the scrapjets, 100 from the dakkajets, 25 from the squigbuggies, 15 from the mek guns, 7 from the dragstas, 15 from the boosta blasta, 18 from the blastajet. A total of 330 + the additional smaller guns. Going from hitting on 5s to 4s is an extra 50 hits.


Laruae

GW needs to increase points on buggies, but also we'll never see a Green Tide list until Stratagems, Boyz points costs, morale issues, and the ever important question of "how do I move a 30 man unit across a 60" board if they move 6-11" per turn and have no save" without the answer being "3 boyz and a nob make it across the road".


icarus92

The stratagems in the new Ork codex are one of the most baffling creative decision from GW that I can think of. They’re so absolutely awful, it seems like a late April Fool’s joke. Incredibly niche, largely ineffective, horribly over costed, and just flat out boring.


pritzwalk

Theres something to be said for a factions stratagems when most players are willing to start the game 5-6 cp down.


icarus92

I play a crusade army against a SM buddy, he’s got a hefty Crusade Point advantage on me. I busted a new Thousand Sons army into the mix, and have been having a good deal of success overcoming his buffed units because there are so many sick stratagems for me to use with the glut of extra CP I have. My Orks though, I literally run out of applicable stratagems to even use, there’s just nothing to spend it on mid-game.


safetyguy1988

I spent 6 CP on Careen a couple games ago against my friend. He was not pleased. Every single time he blew a vehicle (on different turns) it exploded.


icarus92

Yeah Careen is pretty cool, the one stratagem I was really pleased with, tactically and thematically.


Aeviaan

The thousand sons codex is just so effing cool man. I think it's a paragon of good modern codex design, similar to Deathguard. So much flavor, so many cool strats you're always thinking about CP, and really strong without absolutely wiping the metagame but always giving you the feeling that you have winning chances. It's the most fun I've had playing this game in probably years.


Laruae

My personal pet peeve from the strats is that the STOMPAZ keyword exists, but each strat calls out which dreads are allowed to use it, as if the dreads are actually OP and need to be micromanaged... lol.   The biggest issue with Ork Strats is that they have all been constrained to SPECIFIC MODELS, are abilities removed from the units, or are simply terrible/Highly Situational.   ***Super Specific Models*** * All Strats involving Walker units like Deff Dreads, or Killa Kans, specifically call out eligible models. In fact, the **STOMPAZ** keyword all these units share, is only used a **single time** in the entire codex; to deny them a Kustom Job. (Squig Hide Tyres) * **Unstoppable Momentum** - Used to be for every ORK unit, now only works on Nob on Smasha Squig. Still costs CP anyway despite being so restrictive. * **Lumbering Strides** - Now you can pay 1CP for one of your TITANIC models to get the old 'Ere We Go ability. Wow, thanks. * **Groundshaker Shells** - 1CP, if you hit a non-TITANIC, non-FLY model with a 'Eavy Lobba, halve the movement characteristic and -2" to Advance Rolls. Only works on Kill Rig and Hunta Rig, a trend with the new Beast Snagga models, which around HALF of the Ork Stratagems are constrained to.   ***Terrible/Highly Situational:*** * **Careen** - Move 6", IF your vehicle is destroyed and exploding, IF it's not in engagement range, 1CP, if the model is a WAGON or TITANIC pay 2CP. Terrible strat, only happens sometimes, basically requires you to have a vehicle that CAN MOVE, has been destroyed WHILE NOT in ENGAGEMENT RANGE. Chances of that being useful, very low. * **Snagga Grapple** - At the start of Movement Phase, one BEAST SNAGGA BOYZ unit can roll a D6 when a non-TITANIC unit is selected to move. On a 4+ it cannot Fall Back. Absolutely Trash strat that will rarely ever come up, is for some reason constrained to only Beast Snagga Boyz instead of the entire Ork Infantry type (Might be better then), and costs an insulting 2CP for a POSSIBILITY of not Falling Back. * **Force Field Boosta** - For 2CP, you can be the proud new owner of the Kustom Force Field that existed as standard in 8th, (5++ instead of 6++) but after one turn, your model then no longer has the KFF AT ALL, even though you paid 2CP... And do remember back in the day, while it was wholly within, you could increase the range of the force field to 18"! Now you get 9" for one turn, and then it is gone. 85-115pts per model btw.   ***Removed From Units - Now Costs CP:*** * **Hit Em Harder** - Strat has not changed at all, still gives Meganobz +1 damage, only on powerklaws. Now it costs 2CP. Because. * **Gun Crazy Showoffs** - FLASH GITS can Shoot again, but only at the nearest visible target. Used to simply exist in the character and trigger if a 6 was rolled. Now, it costs 2CP, still locked to FLASH GITZ, still has the limitation of closest unit. * **Breakin' Heads** - Innate ability for all Warbosses, one of the most Orky abilities, now a 2CP strat, still requires your WARBOSS to be within 3" of the Ork unit. Still locked, still does D3 mortal wounds to the target unit. I guess it being 2CP is because... Orks should be worse? Less Orky? * **Cuttin' Flames** - Burna Boyz used to have this as an innate ability. For 1CP you can now relive those days. If they had left it as is, and made this a strat too, S4 AP-4 D1 burnas could have been actually interesting, but instead we just get to pay for what we used to have naturally.   On top of this sort of treatment on a fair number of our units, the following strats are now on a milk carton near you. Please call if you see them, we miss them dearly: * Mob Up (Combine 2 Boyz Units) * Medi-Squig (Heal Characters, only way to heal Ghaz) * Snagga Grapple (Deffkilla's special move, does D3 mortals on 2+ when falling back) * Warphead (Take 2 powers) * Boarding Action (1 Attack per embarked model in transport to unit in melee range) * Force-Field Projecta (KFF range from 9" to 18") * 'Ard Boyz (5+ save on one Boyz unit) * More Dakka (Previously triggered Dakka Dakka Dakka on 5 or 6, added a lot to the number of DDD rolls) * Extra Stikkbombs (Up to 10 models in the unit can throw their Stikkbombs or Tankbusta Bombs if they have them (We lost those to a strat too...)) * Loot It! (When vehicle destroyed within 3", +1 to save) * Long Uncontrolled Bursts (+1 to hit when shooting at FLY units) * Unstoppable Green Tide (Re-set up a boyz unit at full health on a board edge) * Klever Spanner (Lootas can roll 2D3 and pick highest for number of shots) * Full Speed Ladz! (Biker or Deffkilla get +1S on the charge) * Kleverest Boss (+1W, +1A, WS2+ on one BIG MEK if no Mek Boss Buzzgob in army) * Grot Bumper (Snazzwagon auto passes one save, once per unit per battle) * Speshul Shells (+12" range on Flash Gitz) * Patch Up (Mork, Gork, Stompa act as if they have 2x their current wounds for one turn) * Unstoppable Momentum (Charge again if no longer within 1" of any enemy units) (This one is now ONLY SMASHA SQUIGS, used to be all ORK units) * Klever Spanner (Roll and discard one extra die for your Loota's number of shots) * Flyin' 'Eadbutt (Ork Flyer can auto explode) * Dreaded Death Machine (Deff Dreads gets to make 1 Attack against the model that destroyed them, using that attacking unit's weapon that dealt the final blow) * Wildfire (Burna Bomma gets to select one more unit within 6" of the first to hit with the Burna Bomb)


JMer806

This is exactly how I feel about the Blood Angels supplement. They removed or nerfed every strat that I used to use, to the point where most of the strats in the book might as well not exist.


Laruae

The biggest actual problem with both Orks and Blood Angels, is overall lack of delivery. Bad strats make that worse since the strats tend to be used as a crutch for the terrible design choices. Da Jump was a core aspect of how 30 Orks that only move 5" could get ANYWHERE, yet its now DOA due to the removal of all of the buffing mechanics that used to exist. Meanwhile, other factions have reliable teleports without any chance to fail, or much less of a chance to fail. It's a serious problem for the factions.


Logical_Teacher311

It feels like da jump should have just been like the sisters zealot/fanatic strat that gets cheaper near a priest for the unit using it. 3CP To jump some boyz 2cp near the psyker and used in the psychic phase. Make it reliable and locked to core as a strategem and now you have an interesting cp sink strat.


Machomanta

Strats that affect a specific unit only should just be on their Datasheets as a once per game ability. There is too much bloat in the Strategem section of codexes. For 10th I'd love to see each box come with a Datacard *card* that lists all relevant info for that unit.


Bensemus

lol if you did that you would remove most of the ork stratagems. I feel like GW took abilities off datasheets just to bulk out the ork stratagems.


Laruae

Yes!


DOAisBetter

Feels like necrons. Most of our buffs used to work on destroyers and destroyer buffs would work on other crons. GW said nope they are separate now but we wont fill in any of the massive gaps we created and also half the buffs in the codex go to warriors which are a trash unit choice.


Laruae

Yes, GW is getting real strange with the classifications. In Thousand Sons Chaos Spawn are Beasts, not Demons. Mutalith Vortex Beast? Not a demon. Demons: * Decimator * Defiler * Forgefiend * Maulerfiend * Heldrake Not Demons: * Helbrute (Helbrutes, which are supposed to be other marines tricked into an eternal torture trap are Arcana Astartes, one of our main buff keywords, because reasons.) * Tzaangors (Not A Beast, just a bird goat man, mkay?) * Chaos Spawn (Beast, but also Faction: Heretic Astartes, Faction: Thousand Sons, Faction: Tzeentch, but no Arcana Astartes.) * Mutalith Vortex Beast (Not a Beast, because Beasts can have Temporal Surge, can't have that affect this thing with BEAST in it's NAME, can we?) It's overwhelmingly clear that someone is trying to play with keywords to balance the armies and is simply not paying attention to what they actually do/are for/logically mean. Instead we get strange mashups and rules gaps.


slothman2121

What's wrong with those keywords from a lore perspective though? Spawn aren't deamons, they are/were regular beings that were twisted and changed and mutated by the warp. They're infused with warp energy but thats different to being a deamon. It's the same with mutilith vortex beasts, they're not deamons, they're numerous spawn forged together by the warp or Exalted Sorcerors who have failed at Deamon hood. Same with tzangors, they're mutants too, not deamons. Hellbrutes aren't deamons because there's no deamon bound to the machine but I guess they are Arcana Astartes because the vehicle itself is TS or because they have been enslaved by an Exalted Sorceror and brought into the ay that way?


Limtube

Why do you think necron warriors are trash?


Tearakan

So worse than necron ones?


Gaz-rick

....or fix the Freeboota trait? Or improve the bring them down secondary? Its kinda maddening to hear this feedback. The buggies aren't anything special when taken as Evil Sunz.


Laruae

It's possible that Freebooterz is the issue, but frankly with how terrible Evil Suns is for vehicles it's no wonder they are nothing special. There are nearly no assault weapons for Orks that aren't flamers....


Gaz-rick

Indeed. And any clan gets that bonus during a speedwaaagh anyway, making it even more redundant. Freebooterz definitely make the Buggies, and other Ork shooting, silly killy. The only other clan that makes them slightly obnoxious is deathskulls.


vontysk

> "See! We *told* you there wasn't a first turn advantage!! Everything is fine." - GW, probably.


BisonST

I was looking back and forth at the stream. Apparently the player placed terrain gave the Orks player the opportunity to block all access to the buggies, etc. with his planes. TheDrukhari player made some gamble, maybe advance rolls?, to get around the planes, failed, then was effectively eliminated in T1.


small_paw

He charged his entire army into the exposed mech guns with the hope that he could get a charge roll high enough to wrap 2 of them, thus sparing almost all of his venoms from turn 1 shooting. Unfortunately he rolled low for charges and failed to kill one of the mek guns so they just fell back and everything died


ssssumo

Go big or go home. Worth a try.


small_paw

The alternative was to just get shot off the table which happened anyway, so probably the right call.


Calgar43

Tabled? Like....nothing left Tabled? Or crippled them to the point it was pointless to continue?


Rustvii

A Venom and a few Kabalites, or something of that level. Around 1800pts of stuff dead.


Calgar43

Jesus. I'd love to see that game. I've lost 900 points Turn 1 and that was crippling enough, and that was against Custodes. I haven't had the....pleasure, of playing against Drukhari or Orks yet.


ThePants999

The latter. Nothing actually removes every single model of a 2000pt army in one turn :) (unless the 2000pt army is, like, a Warhound titan)


Rogue_Sun

Keep in mind the game was called during the Orks shooting phase. It's possible he could have picked up the last 200ish points of the Drukhari army in the Combat phase if it had gone that long.


HighOverlordXenu

Anyone have the list? I'm at work and can't watch the recording


Geordie_Techno

++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [60 PL, 1,015pts, 9CP] ++ + Configuration + Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Clan Kultur: Freebooterz Detachment Command Cost [-3CP] + HQ + Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, 120pts]: 3. Junkboss (Speed Freeks), Warlord + Fast Attack + Megatrakk Scrapjets [5 PL, 90pts] . Megatrakk Scrapjet Megatrakk Scrapjets [5 PL, 90pts] . Megatrakk Scrapjet Megatrakk Scrapjets [5 PL, 90pts] . Megatrakk Scrapjet Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [7 PL, 115pts]: Nitro Squigs . Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [5 PL, 90pts] . Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [5 PL, 90pts] . Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy + Heavy Support + Mek Gunz [3 PL, 45pts] . Mek Gun: Kustom Mega Kannon Mek Gunz [3 PL, 45pts] . Mek Gun: Kustom Mega Kannon + Flyer + Dakkajet [8 PL, 120pts]: 2x Additional Supa Shoota Dakkajet [8 PL, 120pts]: 2x Additional Supa Shoota ++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [53 PL, 985pts, -3CP] ++ + Configuration + Clan Kultur: Freebooterz Detachment Command Cost [-3CP] + HQ + Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, 115pts]: Da Krushin' Armour, Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-Blasta + Fast Attack + Kustom Boosta Blastas [4 PL, 80pts] . Kustom Boosta Blastas Shokkjump Dragstas [5 PL, 85pts] . Shokkjump Dragstas Shokkjump Dragstas [5 PL, 85pts] . Shokkjump Dragstas Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun + Heavy Support + Mek Gunz [3 PL, 45pts] . Mek Gun: Kustom Mega Kannon + Flyer + Dakkajet [8 PL, 120pts]: 2x Additional Supa Shoota Wazbom Blastajet [10 PL, 230pts]: 2x Tellyport Mega-Blastas, Blastajet Force Field, 2x Supa Shoota ++ Total: [113 PL, 2,000pts, 6CP] ++


HighOverlordXenu

Wouldn't the Mek Gunz not benefit from Freebooterz, as they are a Gretchin unit?


someoneinchck

They don’t but they can activate it


HighOverlordXenu

Ah that makes sense.


Specolar

They don't receive the +1 To Hit bonus, but they can trigger it for the rest of your army if they kill something.


DiggyDiggyDorf

GW looking at these stats saying "we must nerf Ynnari, clearly."


BrotherAriman

To make the Genestealer Cult stats worse I don't know if we can even count 4 of those wins given how it seems like people were misusing workers arisen again on ridgerunners. https://www.reddit.com/r/genestealercult/comments/qey852/intentional\_misuse\_of\_custom\_cults/


heroofsymphonia

How dare you not count Ynaari that one guy is the best lol


MagnusRottcodd

816 players in total 1 Craftworld Eldar player. ​ Ouch


wlachen

But with a 67% winning rate, the highest of any faction....so Craft world #1 army obviously /s.....cries in space elf lol


Presentation_Cute

Every Craftworld nerf is actually a buff because then less players are familiar with how to counter Craftworlds and thus they will win until they become common enough to be countered and nerfed again /s


MachoRandyManSavage_

It's the Ciiiiiiiircle of Liiiiiiife


ssssumo

I lost to a pure eldar list in my last tournament because I literally haven't played against one since about 2003, nor have I seen anyone use them so had no idea what to expect. Turns out they can have a lot of shooting and shining spears can do good work against vanguard veterans.


DrStalker

That's good roleplaying of a dying race long past their prime.


Philodoxx

Minor correction: stud or Snotling the second place list was not harlequins, it was aeldari (harlequins + craft worlds)


pieisnice9

Was about to check as if pure harlequins went 6-0 in a world of grey knights I want that dudes list


Philodoxx

I was at the event and got super excited to see harlequins doing well. Then got annoyed when it was a misrepresented faction.


AD5M

Damn really? That’s disappointing. I wanted to see pure harlequins taking the win


Emicrania

I went 4 W 1D @ Malmö and went 11th. Feels bad man 🤷 I did it with an ork list that had 1squigbuggy and 2 MSJ. The Ork codex internal balance is a shamble and you can see it by what Incredibly skewed lists that are a one-trick-pony. The strats Pages are a joke, the Freebooters list is Dwarves 6th Ed boring, a very few ( weirdly ?) Datasheets are so far superior that you will never see 75% of the codex played and the amount of small nerfs utterly destroyed any creative list writing. Next octarius might help with some strats, but this codex will be boring fast, imo.


JCMS85

I know it’s common and popular in Europe but I dislike the major/minor scoring. A 3-2 shouldn’t be ranked higher then a 4-1 IMHO.


Emicrania

I can see good arguments for both sides. One part of me think is stupid that i placed worst than those who lost matches. At the same time, it feels a tad unfair to lose a game for 1% scoring after a 3 hours game.


Supertriqui

I don't think teams that win Football / soccer 1-0 with a goal in the minute 90 should get less points per victory. Wins should matter more. Using score for tie breaker is fine, but a win is a win.


Kitchner

>I don't think teams that win Football / soccer 1-0 with a goal in the minute 90 should get less points per victory. In Rugby you score bonus points where you score 4 points for a win and 2 points for a draw. You then get a point if you score 4 or more tries and a point if you lost by less than 7 points. So if you score a 3 point drop goal and then defend all game without conceding you score 4 points and your opponent scores 0. If you score 3 tries and a bunch of drop goals and your opponent scores 4 tries and loses by less than 7 points you score 4 and they score 2. You can even have a draw where one side scores 2 for the draw and the other scores 3. You don't have to have a system where all wins are equal, but it would be weird to have a draw or a loss count as much as a win.


laspee

You guys could have used the 20-0 system and still had wins as the primary placing metric.. If it’s only 20-0 for both pairings and placings then you can have some seriously weird effects. It just works so much better in a team environment than singles…


safetyguy1988

The new models are keeping me in the game for a minute. The killrig, squighog riders, the bunka, the beastboss on squig, and flashgitz now being kulture inclusive is kinda nice. I do agree though, not much longer and the sameness of my lists is going to grind on me. I miss 8th where I could bring 60-90 boys and just...literally roll dice for the rest of my list because it was all \*decent.\* I'm excited to bring my Bad Moonz list to one of our local tournaments. The extra 6" on heavy/dakka and pip of AP on 6s to wound is quite nice. It's obviously FAR inferior to that of Freebootas but I really do think I'll do alright.


Emicrania

Here in Sweden is such a cutthroat meta that BM are unthinkable. This codex will be old news pretty fast, imo. Which is a shame because really feels like a missed opportunity. The quantity of small nerfs is astounding and uncalled for. The upside is that I got a good feeling about Khorne daemons this codex, so I can dust off some models 🙃


safetyguy1988

Much smaller pop size so it makes sense! My \*state\* has a million more people than Sweden lol (and it's not a big state to boot.) And I travel up to 3-4 hours for tournaments. I imagine if you're into a hobby in Sweden you're really INTO that hobby. But I painted my army yellow, I'm gonna play a yellow army.


FarsightsBlade

Lol, faq when.


_radical_ed

Remember whe GW promissed two FAQs every year in March and September? Good times.


TahitiJones09

That was in 8th edition, ya?


Raddis

Last big FAQ was in June, previous big one was in January.


_radical_ed

That wasn’t a big FAQ. They solve nothing about the problem with DE released in March. They released a patch notes for a 6 month old meta, having not in count the recent meta, and with no additional rules or rule changes like we used to have in 8th.


Raddis

It was. Drukhari codex got nerfed, but sadly it just wasn't enough and they should have followed it up with more nerfs a month or two later, like they did with SM in 8th.


apathyontheeast

Props to the one CWE player. A dying race, indeed.


Grand_Imperator

See, it's lore friendly! :(


Chikokuman

Keepers of secrets apparently trending upward too. Coincidence?


Gutterman2010

Well, I think this week was more a solidification of trends that have been coming for a while. * Thousand Sons has joined Death Guard, Sisters, Deathwatch, and Space Wolves in the middle of the pack. Their codex is balanced in an unbalanced game, so they get bullied by the OP big dogs. * Dark Angels is sliding down rapidly. I think this is solely due to the presence of TSons and Grey Knights. Both armies have access to high AP shooting which will hit terminators with SS's on their invulns and lots of MWs that against Dark Angels will always hit elite units. The Fact that Ahriman and a single infantry unit have pretty good odds to wipe a 5 man terminator squad is just brutal. Same for MW bomb librarian. * The top of the meta seems to have solidified around four factions using basically 1-2 lists for each. AdMech, using fliers and either Lucius or Mars for differing kinds of skitarii lists. Drukhari, going for the Drukhari good stuff or occasionally dipping into venoms. Grey Knights, running 4-5 dreadknights, interceptors, and 4-6 strike squads, with a small mix of HQs. And Orks, running fliers and buggies galore along with warbikers and stormboyz. * Regular Space Marine factions (in particular Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and the other 8e supplements) can do okay overall, but breaking into the leaderboards is nigh impossible. I think this comes down to how so many armies have plans in place to deal with 2+W marine infantry, be they death guard, deathwatch, grey knights, TSons, or Dark angels, that while regular factions will eat noobs and 8e codices easily, they'll never really crack that 3-2 wall.


Stormcoil

This is exactly what I'm seeing in my competitive playgroup as well. I think this is a good summary of where the current game is at.


Laruae

Sadly Orks will not be seen running anything else because it puts them in solid C or D tier territory. The number of little nerfs in the codex is beyond the pale. Absolutely shameless and busted as can be. So it's skew lists or irrelevance for the green boys.


BattleHardened

Exactly why my Deathwing went 2-3 in the Pecking Order GT. Great games, but as soon as mw bombs from 1kS and GK started going off, I was wiped.


Gutterman2010

Pretty much. Similar situation behind Custodes's continued slide as well. MWs generally want to be going into models that hang around 12pts per wound to be maximally efficient. So space marine elite infantry, terminators, light vehicles, and characters. Armies that can't throw out either something which is less efficient (see Guard, Nids, Orks, Necrons, etc. all armies which aren't competitive otherwise, or Drukhari in particular (terrible matchup for TSons)) just can't hang as efficiently. Even Deathguard will find deep striking termies picked off or brought to half strength easily.


rolld7

Did orks end up going first in the socal open? I wanted to watch the stream and see it go down but it was my only chance to see Dune this week so sacrifices were made.


yoshiK

Orks went second. What happened was, that Sean tried to wrap some mek guns as a staging point, that didn't work and his entire army was caught out in the open, and the ensuing Ork shooting phase was actually kinda mesmerizing.


Anacoenosis

File under "things rarely said about Ork shooting."


MagnusRottcodd

It is kinda relaxing. Even an ASMR youtube clip has been made to help you to sleep. https://youtu.be/PdROMMaUdlc


JCMS85

You made the right choice. Orks went second and Dune was great.


rolld7

No regrets.


xchitownx

I think the Ambush at Arrakeen summed up the final table lol


schmuttt

Necrons not mentioned once in the leaderboards over all those events. Faction might be played a lot by new players but they aren’t even getting the big fish in small pond placings.


hayescharles45

"We're out for maintenance that's all. Not worried at all haha. We'll be back!!" Me trying not to be nervous XD


Tearakan

Necrons need across the board points adjustments or a lot of rules changes to be successful. They are way more constrained than codexes like sisters, deathguard, tsons etc. Reanimation protocols are just bad and against a good player practically useless. The most recent necron lists to do okay just didn't even bother thinking they will work.


DOAisBetter

As a necron player, they are just hot trash. If one were to win a tournament thats great, but I would probably say it was more on the fact his competition didn't know what they were doing or few to no top armies showed up.


StraTos_SpeAr

People kept trying to trivialize this throughout the year, but the writing has been on the wall for Necrons since early spring. Necrons are unequivocably the worst 9th edition codex and are worse than a couple 8th edition codexes. They are completely irrelevant right now. The reasons have been hashed over quite a few times, but ultimately the problem is that Necron abilities are incredibly restrictive compared to every other codex and Necrons either 1) can't do the things that other codexes can do or 2) do everything that other codexes do but do them worse. The codex is very poorly designed compared to other codexes. It may have been a great benchmark last October, but it was still inferior to the Space Marines codex and none of the releases after that followed the SM/Necrons example, so Necrons were left in the dust. Sorry SM players, no sympathy for you. SM gets so much attention that they act like individual supplements to a baseline quality codex are codexes in-and-of-themselves. Y'all have several viable supplements while also having a baseline codex that is very good but simply has over-costed models. This isn't the case for Necrons.


SushiSandwich537

Agreed necrons are in a bad place no disputes there. Crons, BA and DW were written with a totally different restrictive mindset which at the time we believed was the new baseline so it was ok. Them the power creep and we have now ~2 books that are almost specifically designed the opposite to buff stack and free for all, like ummm was this the same rules writing team. Add to that another ~2 books with mind boggling efficient units compared to Crons Marines.


The_Forgemaster

fairly standard early-edition codex syndrome for the necrons...


Rhaegaurr

That’s not an excuse. Also it’s not standard codex creep, especially when it’s worse than several 8th codexes.


DOAisBetter

Eh the issue is personally I have been saying this since probably February, but am consistently met with "fanboys" that cant separate their personal identify from that of being a necron player so they refuse to hear it and consider it a personal attack. ​ I'd also note that the lions share of our buffs either only work with warriors, or are so much better on warriors you wouldn't consider doing it with anyone else. We also have these weird melee deep strikers with no way to buff the charge and so many other odd things like that.


PM_yoursmalltits

>Necrons are unequivocably the worst 9th edition codex and are worse than a couple 8th edition codexes. They are completely irrelevant right now. Ahem, blood angels would like a word on that


StraTos_SpeAr

1. ***Not a codex.*** See the last part of what I wrote. 2. Still better than Necrons at what they're supposed to do.


Aekiel

Nice to see some Tyranids on the board this week. Does anyone know if the Octarius book updates were legal for these games or are we waiting a week or two before we'll start seeing them crop up?


Neffelo

No way the Ocatrius book was legal, it just came out on Saturday. I strongly suspect in a few weeks time we will start seeing a few nid lists crop up. That supplement doesn't make them S tier or anything, but it sure adds a lot of powerful mechanics and stratagem.


Aekiel

I agree. That said, Nids are similar to Drukhari in that they are very well designed for playing the mission from a playstyle point of view. The entire reason we see them cropping up in tournaments occasionally has been when the list is focused entirely on ignoring the opponent to win on points. The problem has been outlasting the opponent's ability to kill you, because we don't do enough damage to realistically deplete their ability to do so and our units are fairly squishy (even for our big monsters). Now we've got options for actually taking units off the board in both melee and at range we may see us competing with the top tiers, though likely only with our own top tier players like John Lennon.


Dreyven

Sadly orks absolutely dumpster tyranids to the point I seriously doubt they have a good shot at anything. They just have so much more, effectively higher range non-los shooting that the tyranids crutch, the hiveguard won't make it past turn 1. They also have all the shots and more to clean of any gaunt squads you may have on the board.


Fudge_is_1337

Hive guard can get the adaptation to ignore ap-2, which could neuter the buggies to some extent. If the Ork player drops three buggies worth of the long range mortar, he probably only kills one or two HG sat in an obscuring ruin, and in return the HG probably kill two Rukkatrukks comfortably


Dreyven

They certainly could get the adaption. Adaptions are super limited and important so are you actually going to do it? The buggies become AP-3 in a speedwagh though and will just wipe the whole Hiveguard unit regardless.


BisonST

Don't think so, the book itself was released on Saturday right? So usually events wait a week or two.


yoshiK

Was there anything special at CAGBASH? That result look as if there was lots of terrain or something. Also it's interesting that Daemons are creeping up in the meta, seems that Be'lakor really props up the faction.


Brizzle1072

Standard GW Open terrain. The only thing special was that we didn't have anyone playing Ad Mech.


voodoo-Luck

Beyond the lack of AdMech presence, the TSons player didn't play versus GKs at all (though they did manage to beat a Sisters player by ~15 points, which feels a bit surprising); Facing 3-5 NDKs with that list would probably have gone poorly.


Cautious_Gear_2391

I played a mixed Csm/Deamon/Deathgaurd list for 2nd place. Epidemius and friends!


Oldmanlee12

What a rough showing for dark angels Joel’s list is very cool love the big unit of Bladeguard such a great unit for there points


KurtAngle2

State of the competitive game: Pathetic


freddiehenderson

Hasn't tabletop 40k always been a horrendously balanced game though?


Neffelo

It's never been perfectly balanced, or close for that matter, but it's been in a much better state than this. Even the Iron Hands Space Marine nonsense didn't last thing long. GW should seriously be putting out an an emergency FAQ now, instead of waiting until December/January for us to endure another 3 months of this.


serpimolot

I think pre-8th it was uniformly terribly balanced, but nobody cared because nobody was doing large-scale meta analyses of dozens of competitive tournaments at the time. It feels more imbalanced now even though it's probably not far from the most balanced it's ever been, just due to the spread of information and data.


AenarIT

In 7th ed and before there was no rebalancing, no point updates, basically no FAQ/Errata. Nobody even expected the game to be balanced. Now the game is in a terrible state and yet they are not balancing it despite stating multiple times that they intend to do so and after having had a pretty well balanced meta mid 8th. When you create an expectation you better deliver.


feels_are_reals

> Even the Iron Hands Space Marine nonsense didn't last thing long. I'm a bit out of the meta loop. Can you elaborate on this?


AllIWantIsSpace

End of 8th had completely invincible iron hands dreadnoughts due to RAW shenanigans, if I remember. I always figured it was why the goonhammer meta analysis articles had a couple of Genestealer Cultists looking at a hologram that says "Iron Hands."


xchitownx

tl; dr Iron Hands lists were prevalent in the lead up to LVO 2020. Lots of shooting from untargetable Chaplain Dreads, passing off wounds from the Relic Leviathan onto Intercessors who can 5+ FNP these wounds plus have abilities/strats/relics to reduce damage.


Neffelo

/u/xchitownx summed it up pretty well, but it was a similar situation where you had one army just absolutely dominating the meta for a while.


Zimmonda

In a tournament setting yea, it was never designed to be "out of the box" competitively balanced. You were always supposed to take into account what your opponent was playing/bringing and if "broken" rules as written combinations existed you were supposed to not use them. After all if you're going to use an unfair advantage why play at all? At least that was the thinking. Tournaments are such a tricky beast because unless you allow players a robust sideboard (thus vastly increasing the barrier to entry) you're always going to be playing 40k in a way that it fundamentally was not designed to be played in. You also have to stick strictly to RAW because its the only way to get a semblance of constant game stat across all players. That being said GW has recently "embraced" the tournament or "competitive" community and thus I feel like they owe somesort of increased attention or deviation from "business as usual" and should atleast be attempting incremental FAQ's and points changes. But I'm also sober about the reality of covid and that a lot of best laid plans were thrown in the air.


wayne62682

Yes but people usually felt it was good enough. The sad reality is that 40K has never really been a serious tournament game. People have just turned it into that so have expectations that don't gel with the design concepts of the game It does so happens that it manages to sort of slide in a lot of the main points so it gets overlooked.


justMate

People called me out and said that 40k has always had good rules provided by GW. Literally triggered at my comment on facebook calling out GWs terrible management of the rules system


wayne62682

Anyone who thinks 40k has always had good rules is an idiot. Anyone who has looked outside the GW ecosystem at other games would know how good rules can be.


Knightfall2

Yeah, I've been playing since 5th and its never been particularly balanced. I think we're just seeing more of the super high end event results. Idk I'm still having fun at local events. We had a cool necron melee list take first last month. Most local players arent running the super meta admech/ DE list.


KurtAngle2

Unbalanced? Yes but not this badly


schmeebs-dw

Iron hands winter and castellan hammer were pretty bad. Also invisibility, 5th/6th grey knights, and 4th/5th leafblower we're incredibly stupid My point mostly being we have had spurts of 6-9 months of good balance at times, but the rest of the time it actually has been pretty horrible.


Any_Medium_2123

It's not even that badly balanced. There are 3-4 highly out-performing armies, and a couple that are fairly impossible to perform with - then almost everything else is capable of beating everything else.


ra13ra

Is it? We have like a bunch of strong factions that can compete at the highest Level. Good players still can perform with their chosen faction. The issue is much smaller than people act like, most ppl complaining don’t have reps and just assume the game is bad because they don’t understand matchups. Not saying it could not be better if course, but people act like it’s the worst without actually trying to win.


Tearakan

It is bad. Having multiple factions with 60 percent win rates over and over again just keeps everyone else down. We have admech, drukhari, buggy based orks and grey knights. Everyone else has to play perfect to stand a chance winning against them.


the1rayman

The issue is, if two players of equal skill play your faction can get you stomped. Flat stomped. Look at what happened with thr Dark Angels player, Joel. He played great all weekend. As soon as he got matched up with someone equally skilled AND playing one of the broken armies (in this case DE) he got smoked. This isn't his fault. It's the state of the game. Right now 40k is, play any faction and face the fact that unless you are better than your opponent DE, Admec, and Freeboota Orks are going to crush you.


_shakul_

The mission is a huge factor in that match-up, and I don't think its really fair to say he got "smoked". Scouring always produces one-sided results as the game tends to snowball pretty quick once one side has asserted a bit of dominance. No deployment zone Secondaries on Scouring is also savage for Deathwing as it takes out our biggest advantage in picking up Stubborn Defiance and playing a defensive set-up, and pushed Joel into a really aggressive game: committing to the centre with Oaths and Psychic Ritual. Its just makes the Secondary selection into that game incredibly difficult and starts you on the backfoot anyway. Couple that with Playing Nayden and Drukhari with so many cheap ObSec units, and its an uphill game to play into for the Terminators. Sean also played it brilliantly with the full wrap on the Apothecary + 1 Terminator T2, and then Kabalite move to deny the centre objective after the second brick had straddled from top-left was just cut-throat to just keep the scoreboard suppressed.


Baenre45

I can put up with Codex Creep and Codex being way to powerful for the game but i am utterly sick and tired of massive flyer formations dominating the game. The only way to balance flyers in the game is to just remove them from the game and make a separate game using just flyers. Once that is done we can address the points issue in some codex.


JMer806

Honestly it’s better now than it has been all edition. GK and Orks are finally bringing Drukhari and AdMech down without being too oppressive on their own.


NevermindJamba

An Orks player just won the SoCal major in one turn killing off a large chunk of the Drukhari players army (Nayden, one of the best Eldar players in the world). But yes, not too oppressive on their own.


MediumM

There were like 15 ork lists (out of 108) at stud or snot and not a single ork player placed in top 10. Diogo was at 18 and I sat at 21. We're both pretty good players.


Bensemus

The Ork Freeboota buggy plane spam list is the issue. It easily tables opponents as Ork shooting wasn't balanced around 4+ which is really easy to get with it.


JMer806

I’m not sure that a single game with a crazy result is enough to label the faction as oppressive. Maybe they are, or will turn out to be, but we can’t draw that conclusion from a single game. Hell I’ve tabled opponents by T2 playing as Blood Angels, doesn’t mean BA or even my list was oppressive - sometimes games just go that way between misplays and dice.


NevermindJamba

This is the second major/event in a month an Orks player has ended a Major final in turn 1. This is happening all over the place and this is not just a one-off incident.


3DPrintLad

He did it all tournament, tabled another high rank drukhari player turn 1 the game before as well. It really is autopilot autowin list it just costs 2x what any other army costs so there is only like 3 people that even have it right now.


NevermindJamba

Exactly. Anecdotes and 'well I was at a tournament where Orks didnt do well' is not productive to this discussion or the competitive scene. The Drukhari, AdMech, and Orks need to be toned down quite a bit. Grey Knights are flirting with that right now. When only 5/30 armies have a substantial play rate and a win rate over 50%, that's bad. This has to be the worst meta/balance since early 8th back in 2017/2018.


Dealthagar

I found the pairings - anyone see the results for Dragon Fall? (I happen to know 5 or 6 players that were there and wanted to see how things went) https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/v1nujtwg?started=true&embed=false


napp_time

I attended, the TO never released the placings. But, I can say the person that was undefeated at the end was an ork list with 4 planes and buggies. But the event for actual placing used a "hobby track" score where it was a combo of up to 500 pts from battlepoints, 300 for paint, and 150 from sportsmanship.


_shakul_

Gz to Joel Wilson on doing a stellar job with the Dark Angels this weekend, single Deathwing Vanguard list that iirc only lost when he played Sean Nayden. Love seeing the boys in bone performing well. Would love to know how Lazarus panned out in that list, and whether or not the much vaunted Talonmaster would have been preferable given his games? Lazzy looks good into TSons / GK, and his always fight on death rule can get some mega value. Running the 6x Cyclones is interesting too... Assuming he was combat squading out the Shields and the Stormbolters as separate units. How does that choice play into Drukhari; I always struggled with cracking Raiders \*AND\* having Stormbolters free to shoot their contents due to them activating at the same time. Especially without the Talonmaster on hand in that list. But yeah, other than that we're in a rough spot at the moment. ETA: The DA list at the Come the Apocalypse event is also hilarious... who needs gunz?! Love it! 2x Deathwing lists punching their weight as the mailed fist of the Inner Circle this weekend. Dont care about our WR now... just seeing these two lists puts a grin on my face.


_shakul_

Incase anyone is interested: Joel Wilson - SoCal Open 8th https://pastebin.com/4YfqQDj5 Robert Birmingham - Come the Apocalypse 4th https://pastebin.com/rsieg78i


Spartan-000089

I'm not a DA player, can you explain the lone Ravenwing Apothecary in each list?


_shakul_

Sure. They take the Chief Apothecary upgrade and then Selfless Healer as a Warlord trait so they can do a "free" rez every turn on the Terminators and then heal 3 wounds back on 2x models per turn. You run them as the Ravenwing version though because they can move fast and so get to the units in your army that need healer support. A RW Apothecary can travel 32" a turn and still provide the Rez / Healing required. Don't really need to go indepth here, free rezz's are good; but free rezz's on a 43pts Terminator with a Stormshield and perma-transhuman is awesome. They both also have the Reliquary of Repentance, which is a relic providing a 3" aura to reduce all opponents Invuls to an unmodified 5+. That coupled with something like the Ravenwing Stratagem Swift Strike and Ezekiels Mind Worm to cause an opponent to Fight Last means you can sling the Apothecary into combat alongside a Terminator brick and know an opponent with a 4++ or even a 3++ cant Interrupt (to kill the Apothecary) because of the Fight Last. Then your Terminators can wail on them with their reduced Invul and if they fail to kill the target you can fight with the Apothecary and play Swift Strike for 2CP to run away before your opponent swings - which protects the Apothecary. The final piece they both have is a Grenade Launcher - this is for access to Stasis Shell which means if the Apothecary shoots and hits a target, that target is unable to fall back. This is important for Deathwing against some armies as it allows you multi-charge and tag opponents, then get a guaranteed activation in your opponents turn (because they cant fall back) so you get another round of "free" attacks and extra 6" movement through Pile In / Consolidates (which is great on 5" movement models).


DeckardGates

They also have inner circle, and so can fit into a deathwing vanguard easily without breaking its benefits.


deltadal

Excellent explanation.


Spartan-000089

Wow that's a very in-depth explanation, than you. That one single unit sounds like the lynch pin to the who army. Free resurrecting every turn on terminators is amazing not to mention the other buff. I can see it being target #1 for the enemy


_shakul_

Yeah, the RW Apothecary is certainly a go to unit in the DA book in general. Whether its 60pts Attack Bikes or 43pts Terminators etc you do get value out of him. The DA Characters are incredibly good across the board though. They all help make the army tick and I'd go as far to say that Ezekiel is the real lynchpin for Deathwing lists in particular. His 18" power to make a unit Fight Last and inflict 1MW combines incredibly well with Grim Resolve (+1 to hit if you haven't moved that turn) as it allows Terminators to play an extremely defensive game and have a buffer against being charged. When they are about to be charged Ezekiel can slap a big scary unit with Fight Last and then your Terminators fight before them, and their Thunderhammers are hitting on 3's (or 2's with a 1CP strat). Combine that with the other power both lists have (Righteous Repugnance to RR all hit and wound rolls in melee on a unit) and it makes Terminators obnoxious defensively. The 2 lists deviate on his last power - I personally prefer Engulfing Fear as it turns off an enemies ObSec and, if you beat their Leadership, it stops that unit performing actions that turn. This is great for an army with ObSec Terminators and takes out lists like Necron Silvertides, which can be anathema to Deathwing lists with double-ObSec Warriors. But also helps into the current crop of Ork games with Kommandos etc moving onto Objectives as they only have Ld7 which means Ezekiel can hit them with the power and stop them playing for Banners / Get Da Good Bitz etc (this combines really well with a Rites of War Talonaster to burn down banners in the mid-board too). The other power used is Aversion and thats a simple -1 to hit on a unit. Works well in general but I found it limited use in my play area as we tend to use 2x large woods.


Abject-Performer

Apothecary gives a 6+++ aura to infantry and biker. On each turn, he can use a stratagem to revive an infantry or biker model from units within 3 inches of the apothecary. He can also heal one model for d3 Wounds. If the apothecary has the Selfless healer WL trait, the stratagem cost no CP and he can heal two units (instead of 1) for 3 flat wounds (instead of d3).


Affectionate-Elk-366

Oof my poor necrons lol


DOAisBetter

Every new codex that releases is another tier placement for necrons to drop.


LightningDustt

Ha haaaaaaaaaaaa this s\*\*\* sucks man....


BisonST

Does anyone have a good video / battle report for GK vs. Ad Mech or Drukhari on a top table? I'd like to see the GK in action against the best. That 4-1 Astra Militarium is interesting. Too early for Cadian improvements right?


weaselguy25r

The 4-1 Astra Militarum is the store owner playing at his own event, where he historically has a much higher win-rate than at any other event. I've also heard from 2 different people at that event that he was losing his 4th game (100-30), and then miraculously his opponent got a DQ for that round, pushing the AM player up to an 85-0 for that game, and securing him his 2nd place finish. His list also has a sneaky tendency to disappear from the BCP rosters after events, but that could be a "technical error", I suppose. I wasn't personally there, but I trust my sources.


fordilG

Good to know wasn’t just me, not being able to find their guard list on BCP. If this is true it’s sad for the guard community that the only list that the army has fielded that has gotten to the top tables in 2+ weeks got there through the DQ of their opponent, especially when the legality of this DQ is in question.


azon85

Is that the guy who also built his manticores to have the missiles laying flat on the top of the model's roof instead of up in the air? You know, the definition of modeling for advantage?


fordilG

No idea, but considering how much of a reputation this guy seems to have, it’s probably that guy too.


thebiggerman42

Or a poorly converted modeled for Advantage basilisk


weaselguy25r

Yep


weaselguy25r

Yeah, I play Guard and Tau mostly. Having looked at his list before, barring any recent changes, I think it's usually a mix of a Catachan Battalion with 60 infantry, 2 Full Payload Manticores, assorted characters and 2 Tank Commanders, alongside a Scion Detachment (I think Iotan) with 2 Tempestors, some infantry, 2 melta Command Squads, and Taurox Primes.


fordilG

Interesting, sounds like the ‘standard’ competitive guard list of loading up on tank commanders and manticores with a detachment of scions. Thank you very much for the quick breakdown of the probable list. Edit: Grammar


JCMS85

Couldn’t find the list on BCP yesterday. I’ve heard of the Barns reputation before but I’m not an event cop and others put in a lot of time at his events so don’t want to exclude them.


thebiggerman42

Yeah


Spaced_UK

What the hell is happening with Dark Angels?!


_shakul_

Clearly not enough Terminators being deployed... **need moar boyz in bone!** On a slightly more serious note, the DA Codex sits in a weird spot where we're supposed to be the durable Marines - ie 4++/5++ on our Bikes, Transhuman Terminators / BGV, defensive Secondaries / Chapter Tactic etc. However, GW currently undervalues offense and has way over-costed defense. So the DA book came out, everyone lost their panties at the thought of perma-transhuman Terminators dominating the board and then a swathe of Codexes swept in with a higher offense designed to break them (read: Drukhari, AdMech, GK, TSons, Orks). Currently running a list with 35 Deathwing Terminators in it and got tabled (for the first time) by Orks in 3 turns last week as we were testing out a friends list with 3x Squigosaurs and Kill Rigs... The amount of damage flying around the meta now is crazy high and is typified by the SoCal open final (where Orks effectively tabled Nayden T1) and also the LGT where AdMech did similar - DA just can survive that to grind their way through a game.


deltadal

The MW output has just spiked the past few books.


Spaced_UK

True that! We had a great codex for a couple of months there 😂


_shakul_

\*weeks lol Was a good period when Ogden and Andre were running 2 different lists and doing well... then it fizzled out. Happy cake day btw!


frankthetank8675309

At this point, it almost feels like TOs should just have divisions for events similar to weight classes in combat sports. Drukhari, AdMech, and Ork buggy/flyer spam lists can all play each other in the OP division, and everything else can play "regular" 40k. If GW isn't going to release FAQs to try and nerf them, and the community seems split on the concept of an independent FAQ, this feels like the only other option to try and salvage a somewhat balanced meta.


Spartan-000089

I assumed the Emperor's Children list was your standard 30+ terminator list


eldor888

Nope. 20 man noise Marine blob, 15 spawn, 60 cultists, maulerfiend and 5 terminators. +++ Pure EC Battalion (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [98 PL, 2,000pts, 11CP] +++ ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [98 PL, 2,000pts, 11CP] ++ + Configuration + Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command Cost Legion: Emperor's Children + Stratagems + Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP] + No Force Org Slot + Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . 2x Dark Disciple: 2x Close combat weapon + HQ + Chaos Lord [7 PL, 135pts]: Combi-melta, Jump pack, Mark of Slaanesh, Raiment Revulsive, Thunder hammer Dark Apostle [4 PL, 80pts]: Blissful Devotion, Illusory Supplication, Mark of Slaanesh, Remnant of the Maraviglia Sorcerer [6 PL, 115pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Jump pack, Mark of Slaanesh, Warlord, Warp Lord, Warptime, Prescience + Troops + Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 29x Autogun . Cultist Champion: Autogun Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun . Cultist Champion: Autogun Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun . Cultist Champion: Autogun Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun . Cultist Champion: Autogun Noise Marines [20 PL, 430pts] . 2x Marine w/ blastmaster: 2x Blastmaster, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades . 17x Marine w/ sonic blaster: 17x Bolt pistol, 17x Frag & Krak grenades, 17x Sonic Blaster . Noise Champion: Astartes chainsword, Sonic blaster + Elites + Terminators [8 PL, 175pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-melta . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator Champion: Chainfist, Combi-melta + Fast Attack + Chaos Spawn [5 PL, 115pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . 5x Chaos Spawn: 5x Hideous mutations Chaos Spawn [5 PL, 115pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . 5x Chaos Spawn: 5x Hideous mutations Chaos Spawn [5 PL, 115pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . 5x Chaos Spawn: 5x Hideous mutations + Heavy Support + Maulerfiend [7 PL, 140pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh + Dedicated Transport + Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 90pts]: Combi-melta, Mark of Slaanesh Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 90pts]: Combi-melta, Mark of Slaanesh Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 90pts]: Combi-melta, Mark of Slaanesh


Taylor_made2

So good to see 74 Warbosses Waaaghing hard


THEDORAX

"Won't someone please think of the Dark Angels" Tau players 2021


Zephrysium

What are those deathguard lists looking like? How’d they deal with orks, just get first turn and bring a ton of guns?


3DPrintLad

Death Guard is one of the 2 popular armies that can go 2nd and still have a chance to win against Orks, the other being Admech. But you have to have a Plagueburst/Contemptor spam list and reserve your poxwalkers and other vulnerable units.


Zephrysium

I know. I ran a list with three pbc, 1 contemptor, and 2mbh ina local RTT and lost to freebooters spam twice. 1st time got second, and put up a valiant effort. You’re right it held up better than any other army, but there was too much of a dent to fight back enough, even after blowing a ton of cp on turn 1. Second orc matchup I went first and the dice abandoned me. Literally all three pbc did more damage in explosions than otherwise. I think the best chance against admech fliers and orcs is demons engine spam.


Overbaron

Five factions with a meaningful number of games break 50% winrate. Damn that’s healthy.


Grand_Imperator

I wouldn't say that Ork buggy spam (notably indirect fire) that tends to decide the game on turn 1, with the game over by turn 2, is not healthy. Nor are Ad Mech flyers. We've had some major events called at the end of turn 1 (just one player's turn, LGT if I recall with Ad Mech flyers and not much obscuring terrain) and this weekend at the SoCal Open (ork buggies obliterated Drukhari despite the attempt by the Drukhari player to try and stay engaged with some mek gunz. We can say that in some ways, the meta is healthier than when it was only Drukhari and Ad Mech topping events, but I don't think the influence of Ad Mech flyers and Ork buggy spam (especially the indirect fire) is a healthy one.


Overbaron

I think you need to sharpen your sarcasm sense.


Grand_Imperator

Not sure why the downvote was necessary or appropriate (though I'm guessing it wasn't you), but I'm glad it was sarcastic! I don't think it was as obvious as you think it was because there has been plenty of chatter about how it's great that it's not just Drukhari and Ad Mech topping events. While I agree in some ways it's better than it was a couple of months ago, I worry that folks are missing the problems caused by buggy spam and flyers (I should say particular flyers).


Phrohmage

Anyone has the two AM list (the soup and the pure one) by any chance ? EDIT: damn that must be my most downvoted comment lol


MediumM

I faced the imp soup gk list game 6 for 5-1 (I lost, giving him the placing). He ran 5 russes with demo cannons, 2 tank commanders with demo cannons. 4 melta psions, and a brick of 10 psions with mixed anti-tank (plasma+melta). 2 guard psykers. GK soup was a squad of glaive guys and a terminator librarian. He took psychic interrogation, rod, and engage. Game ended 86-82.


bobqt

https://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Alan-Blakeborough-2nd-Place-Spring-2021-Barnyard-Brawl-2021-Astra-Militarum.pdf Here is the pure one, I don't have the soup. Sorry bud


Phrohmage

Thank you !


bobqt

No prob bud. It's impossible to find any AM lists that do well and asking generally gets you downvotes. I hope it helps


Phrohmage

Yeah I didn't really get why I was at -12 but anyway, might try that list if I ever find time for a 2000pts game


IjustwantchaosIG

I have the soup because I was the soup lol. Obsec tanks do the damage and sit on objectives. The psykers smite people off of my tanks so I can still shoot. The scions can 5" drop to steal objectives or put a bunch of melta shots on something that needs to die. I played: - Mixed Ksons (W) - Marines (Van vets and UM with multimeltas galore) (L) - GK (4 dreadknights and interceptors) (W) - DG (2 PBC, 3 big termy units) (W) - Sisters (2 repentia, 2 retributors, morgen, celestine) (W) - Orks (bikes, 3 planes, more vehicles (W) **GK patrol - blades of victory** Librarian - purifying flames, vortex of doom Strike squad **Guard patrol - scion gorgonnes** Inquisitor - malleus mastery with castigation Primaris - warlord Tempestor Prime - rod and laurels of command MT command squad - 4 melta Wyrdvanes 10 man squad - 4 melta 10 man squad - 4 plasma 5 man squad **Guard Spearhead - gunnery experts and spotter details** 2x Demo TC with lascannon and hunter killer, master mechanic 5x Demo with heavy bolter


Phrohmage

Thank you for the complete list ! Interesting way to use the psykers, did they have only offensive spell or you still took barrier and the -1 to hit ?


IjustwantchaosIG

I take maelstrom on the primaris and barrier on the wyrdvanes. Between player placed terrain (including a forest) and smoke launchers I could usually count on my vehicles being -1 to hit when it mattered so the extra mortals were nice.


MediumM

Good game man! I was the ork player you crushed haha. Inspired me to make some changes to my list! Dropping either the bikes and tankbustas for a 2nd wazbomm jet and 2 more mek guns I think. I clearly didn't have the goods to drop a 7 tank skew list haha.


IjustwantchaosIG

You too! I like it. (Well, I'd rather not face it) A second wazbomm would be much more scary and the mek guns could help lock down fire lanes.


bobqt

Thanks bud, you're a champ!


Any_Medium_2123

Anyone got the winning TSons list?


Brizzle1072

+++ TSons Time/Duplicity (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [100 PL, 7CP, 18 Cabal Points, 1,999pts] +++ ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [52 PL, 12CP, 10 Cabal Points, 1,069pts] ++ + Configuration [12CP] + Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP] Cults of the Legion: Cult of Duplicity Detachment Command Cost + HQ [10 PL, 4 Cabal Points, 180pts] + Infernal Master [5 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 1. Bladed Maelstrom, 21. Temporal Manipulation, 6. Malefic Maelstrom, Egleighen's Orrery, Master Misinformator, Warlord Sorcerer [5 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, 22. Weaver of Fates, Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol + Troops [32 PL, 6 Cabal Points, 659pts] + Rubric Marines [6 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 115pts]: Icon of Flame [1 Cabal Points, 10pts] . . Aspiring Sorcerer [1 Cabal Points, 21pts]: 23. Baleful Devolution, Inferno Bolt Pistol . . 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun [84pts]: 4x Inferno boltgun Rubric Marines [6 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 115pts]: Icon of Flame [1 Cabal Points, 10pts] . . Aspiring Sorcerer [1 Cabal Points, 21pts]: 12. Twist of Fate, Inferno Bolt Pistol . . 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun [84pts]: 4x Inferno boltgun Rubric Marines [12 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 279pts]: Icon of Flame [1 Cabal Points, 10pts] . . Aspiring Sorcerer [1 Cabal Points, 26pts]: 32. Pyric Flux, Warpflame pistol [5pts] . . 9x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer [243pts]: 9x Warpflamer [54pts] Tzaangors [8 PL, 150pts]: Brayhorn [10pts] . . Twistbray [7pts]: Tzaangor blades . . 19x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor blades [133pts]: 19x Tzaangor blades + Fast Attack [10 PL, 230pts] + Chaos Spawn [5 PL, 115pts] . . 5x Chaos Spawn [5 PL, 115pts]: 5x Hideous mutations Chaos Spawn [5 PL, 115pts] . . 5x Chaos Spawn [5 PL, 115pts]: 5x Hideous mutations ++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [48 PL, -5CP, 8 Cabal Points, 930pts] ++ + Configuration [-2CP] + Cults of the Legion: Cult of Time Detachment Command Cost [-2CP] + Stratagems [-2CP] + Sorcerous Arcana [-2CP]: 2x Additional Relics [-2CP] + No Force Org Slot [5 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts] + Sorcerer [5 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 21. Presage, 23. Temporal Surge, Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, The Prism of Echoes + HQ [14 PL, -1CP, 5 Cabal Points, 250pts] + Exalted Sorcerer [9 PL, -1CP, 3 Cabal Points, 160pts]: 11. Gaze of Hate, 11. Tzeentch's Firestorm, Athenaean Scrolls, Dilettante [2 PL, 35pts], Disc of Tzeentch [1 PL, 25pts], High Acolytes [-1CP], Immaterial Echo, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Umbralefic Crystal Infernal Master [5 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 3. Capering Imps, 31. Empyric Guidance, 5. Glimpse of Eternity + Troops [8 PL, 145pts] + Thousand Sons Cultists [8 PL, 145pts] . . Cultist Champion [5pts]: Autogun . . 28x Cultist w/ autogun [140pts]: 28x Autogun + Elites [21 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 445pts] + Scarab Occult Terminators [21 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 445pts]: 2x Hellfyre missile rack [20pts] . . Scarab Occult Sorcerer [1 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 55pts]: 13. Doombolt, Inferno combi-bolter, Rites of Coalescence [1 PL, 15pts] . . 7x Terminator [280pts]: 7x Inferno combi-bolter, 7x Prosperine khopesh . . Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [45pts]: Soulreaper cannon [5pts] . . Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [45pts]: Soulreaper cannon [5pts]