T O P
Fickle-Pension-9676

So hears a question I haven’t seen asked. Can we claim this loss on our taxes?


Any-Rise-6300

Assuming you get your settlement and sell out of any tokens/equity/etc (you’re fully back to cash) then yes. If you get some other token or equity and you don’t sell it then it would be an unrealized loss which is not something you can claim in your taxes (in the US)


Background_Purpose70

I assume if you has $200 usdc and only got back $100 usdc (hypothetical), you would be able to write off the $100 loss, I ‘assume’. Check with a tax professional.


Ghostly1031

I sure as hell am lol


Prize_Two_8861

Not until this is over though


xjacenx

Haven’t heard


Celestial_Medicine

I wish we had someone with a large platform to speak out on our behalf. Like twat about it or something…


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Ghostly1031

Every single one of the executives will be long gone or they’ll be hit with house arrest or some other white collar bullshit criminal charge im sure


ME_CPA

Since when is having a company go bankrupt a criminal offense? Not in the US it isn’t.


Ghostly1031

I didn’t say a company going bankrupt is illegal but falsifying advertisement attempt to commit fraud and grossly misleading/mishandling very much so is


ME_CPA

I don’t see anyway that they had fraudulent advertising, everything was pretty transparent when reading user agreements and fine print.


Fun-Airport8510

They were doing risky investments and lying about it.


ME_CPA

Not sure about lying about their internal investments or the relevance? Are Bank of America depositors entitled to info about the banks revenue strategies?


Money-Advantage-6535

Unless it's bonds, aren't all investments, by nature, risky?


MonsieurReynard

Not necessarily or there wouldn't be any MLMs.


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testtech2522

Yeah. I am still waiting for the bankers who started the crash of 2008 to be arrested.


Ghostly1031

Honestly I couldn’t agree more.


Seaglassbeacher

Just give me my USDC back 😑


Zoey1234100

About 99% of my holdings are in USDC on voyager


Seaglassbeacher

Yup, same here and my husband too. So frustrating


Zoey1234100

Very frustrating did you hear about the news about being getting a slice of our pizza back ?


RDeviant

Same. USDC should be treated as USD. It literally says it on the details within their own app.


kidzstreetball

....no it shouldn't. USDC had an interest rate of 9%. Cash had an interest rate of 0%. The interest rate comes from them loaning out your USDC. To say they should be treated equivalently is just completely false.


RDeviant

USD and USDC are basically one and the same. This is not some UST bs that wasn’t backed dollar for dollar. UST collapsed because it was using your UST and invested in other currencies which is not backed by USD. For every USDC there’s actually one dollar match hence why it’s the only real stable coin in the crypto world at this time. As far as investments, there are plenty of other exchanges that are doing fine and still paying 6+% interest without the stupid risks that Voyager has done. Stop blaming the people who are not at fault here. USDC was never meant to be a high risk investment. It was supposed to be a store of value that pays interest. Sure they could loan your money, but it should be 100% collateral.


kidzstreetball

Where in my comment am I blaming anyone? I'm pointing out that no matter how stable a "stable coin" is, it is simply not the same thing as cash. And offering 9% interest is completely unsustainable. I had 11k in USDC, I'm hurting just as bad as everyone here.


MonsieurReynard

You *thought* USDC and USD were "one and the same." But they weren't.


rctocm

Hmm


Fun-Airport8510

Yes. They lied and said that money was kept in safe banks. Never said it was being absconded with by 3AC.


Blake_6

Yeah so much for "1:1 backing with cash reserves in our FDIC insured bank" Until Stephen got to it..


Fun-Airport8510

“Let me watch your money and I will pay you 9%.”


Blake_6

Haha best part is it still says on their website under earn.. that there is NO LOCK UPS, NO LIMITS! Ugh, I'd say you limited me and locked up my funds when I couldn't withdraw / sell / or transfer more than $10k per day until you shuttered.. that in itself is BS, had they not done this 100% of my money would of been removed by day of shut down. Scum bums


Ghostly1031

I had a good bit of money in there too…


Fun-Airport8510

They loaned it all to 3 Arrows Capital and they blew it. The two founders of 3AC disappeared with everyone’s money.


RezDogHODLr

Time for a contract on their heads...or something like that.


Dizzy-Nebula-1919

Ar least Voyager is putting out updates. Celsius users haven't heard shit in 5 weeks. Listen I understand this is probably an unpopular opinion but I truly believe Steve is trying to right his wrongs. No one wants their legacy to be imploding a company. He made some bad decisions, he's human like all of you. Lord knows I've made so many costly mistakes in my life and but I'm confident Steve is not only fighting for his legacy but for us too. Because let's face it at the moment those two go hand I'm hand.


Ghostly1031

I agree with your statement fully, still pissed of course though. Human nature at its finest. I just hope the best for all of us because I truly think that is this goes anymore south that it could DEEPLY effect the crypto space as a whole. That’s why I get annoyed with personnel that state “not your keys not your crypto” because in the same sense how are we going to move towards full adaption if everyone is terrified oh having their Crypto stolen by some major corporation. You think that some 90 year old is gonna figure out a cold wallet?


Infinite_Proposal417

Exactly! I actually still hope that someone will buy them out because Voyager failure will impact the entire crypto space. And yup, I dont see crypto going full adaption at this point. Terra/UST stablecoin collapse, Celsius, now Voyager. Too many people lost confidence. Too many scams, too much greed, government and SEC do not want crypto to evolve. And without regulations, people will continue getting screwed but regulations contradict what crypto is. However folks who do not keep crypto on CEX arent freaking out as they say everyone knows the risk of keeping crypto on CEX which is true as well. But most did not see a publicly traded SEC registered company such as Voyager would fail. This is almost as bad as if Coinbase would fail.


Ghostly1031

Couldn’t of said it better myself


Infinite_Proposal417

Yea I mean it sucks but it is what it is. I also see many here are bitter negative pos trying to blame someone for this. Lol No, sorry, Voyagers agreement was pretty clear. And we all know the risk keeping crypto on any centralized platform. I tell you, all folks who do not keep crypto on CEX aren't freaking out about it, and blame us for it. So this has no impact on them nor they think crypto is over because of that. I get it. 🤷‍♀️ As far as crypto overall, imo, I think the only "safe" asset at this point is BTC and maybe ETH. BTC has its brand name and it never failed. ETH also is old and many use ETH to buy other coins, etc. All other coins will come and go but yea, I don't see full crypto adaption at this point. I can see for someone like FTX would buy them out just to save the damage and "control damage" of entire crypto space.


pickoneforme

the part that pisses me off the most is the fact that we have to pay for their mistakes. it’s like if you went on a class field trip to a museum and some random shithead kid ruins a priceless artifact, and the whole class gets charged for it. like, what the fuck? and do they really believe they’re going to have a company after this? no one in their right mind is going to want to do business with them.


rctocm

Except we didn't know enough to know Voyager was that random shithead kid.


akius0

This was the deal why do you think we were getting 9-12% when the bank is giving 1%. Retail investors🤪


RDeviant

This was never the deal. If it was explicitly said like that to public, no one would invest. They built the company on false advertising, including FDIC insurance claim which is false too.


akius0

When you deposit your money in Wells Fargo or JP Morgan do they tell you exactly where they're going to loan that money out too??? Yes the FDIC claim was a little shrouded, but it didn't turn out to be a lie. Read the latest email that they sent out. But I do agree there could have been a little bit more clear about the FDIC.


kryptokronix

You’re missing one huge part. Collateral


RDeviant

Any bank loans your money somewhere else, that has always been the case. But no matter what, they will always give you back what you hold. The difference is that they don’t pay you, the customer nothing. But they make money of of your money. It’s the main reason people seek interest based accounts as the traditional bank pays you nothing. However, the back your amount held and will always return same amount. Problem is that how your money was used on Voyager or who they loaned it to was never disclosed until 3AC. They straight up gambled with your money, and you pay for their mistakes which is their own. They’ve already made profit on the money you have in there. Way more than the 9%, but you take the fall. Please explain how that makes any sense?


akius0

1. I agree that their risk management was s*** one bad loan knocked the company out. That was extremely s*****, and once you find out what three 3AC was doing they were buying nfts for hundreds of thousands of dollars. And Voyager held very little collateral from them. 2. But I disagree that a bank will need to disclose who it's grieving out loans to, I mean it could but vast vast majority of the retail will not have time to vet them themselves. 3. Apart from the FDIC misalignment (I will not call that a lie) I don't see anything criminal from Voyager. Criminally stupid yes


RDeviant

You don’t see anything criminal in locking you out of your account, or taking your hard earned money that was supposed to be “safe” as they advertised? Or them saying that your crypto is their crypto? Who in their right mind would put money in this crap if it was said like this? You don’t seem to have much invested, so sure you may be passive about this, but there are millions of people affected and some with their life saving here. The entire thing is absolutely criminal. They purposely waited till the 1st of July to lock everything, knowing full well people were waiting on interest. They gave interest and just locked everyone out. This is fraud, same as you not getting the product you bought for or invested.


akius0

Dude read the agreement when you put your crypto on a centralized platform and sign the disclaimer you're giving them the right to do whatever with your crypto that's why they're giving you that interest, now one of those loans went bad, then we had a bank run.... I love how retail didn't want any regulation, and now it's desperate for a savior. I lost a bunch of money too, Voyager was stupid but I don't see anything criminal here.


Fun-Airport8510

Voyager and it’s customers took the fall. CEO and big names probably walked away with fortunes in salaries and bonuses before all this. Steve Erlich, Mark Cuban and others.


Dizzy-Nebula-1919

I hear ya. But unfortunately and fortunately we don't know yet what will happen over the next few weeks. The chance of being bought out is still high.


Fun-Airport8510

Who wants to buy a used up piece of junk? No one.


Ghostly1031

One can hope


Inevitable-Dot6779

Steve made a horrible decision loaning that money.


ugotsurbed

Considering there are 20 offers…… f restructuring, sell and make us whole. But he’s trying to save the company which will reduce our value.


GrindNhodL

Who gives a shit about a legacy when he cashed out millions… his intent from day one was to scam as many people as he could. In an unregulated market he probably won’t do a single day in jail. He was printing Vgx tokens out of thin air… centralized coins end game.


Dizzy-Nebula-1919

You're just talking nonsense


GrindNhodL

You are delusional, it’s over.


Dizzy-Nebula-1919

Considering dating back a year you've never posted to this group or any voyager group for that matter leads me to believe you're just trolling. Which is fair. Low self esteem individuals feel better about themselves when they inject their nonsense onto others.


GrindNhodL

How am I trolling? I am being honest luckily I broke even on the platform…


Dizzy-Nebula-1919

👌


Professional_Buyer73

He could of sold the company and made the crypto holders get their shit back. He’s looking at what benefits himself lol


ME_CPA

You have a flaming bag of dogshit as a company for sale, who, and be honest with yourself, do you think is going to buy it?


zants

At the moment, FTX and Binance during their buying-spree.


ME_CPA

Buying what though? Debt?


Dizzy-Nebula-1919

How so? You know something no one else knows? I think you're speculating.


Fun-Airport8510

What about the founders of 3AC? Are they trying to fight their wrongs? I don’t call jumping ship and leaving the country righting wrongs. Waiting for Steve Erlich to be reported missing along with a few hundred million or even billion in crypto assets.


prabal34

yeah, just got it. Resisted the urge to reply with "Go fuck yourselves".


Ghostly1031

I couldn’t agree more. I don’t know why but it made me even more mad.


rctocm

Its because they declared bankruptcy to pay out the minimum to us and get started back in business asap to start making themselves money to make themselves richer.


Ghostly1031

I think we should take their shins 🤷🏻‍♂️”their shins are out shins because we hold them”


KlutzyDifference4986

So between the 1.3 B and the 600 mil (3AC) stole voyage had 1.9 worth of crypto from us obviously they ain't getting the 600 mil back that mean we should get 70% of our crypto back and the other 30% in worthless srock and vgx?


pdwiki123

Unless the whole restructuring costs $200 million which will come out of our crypto!


Fun-Airport8510

Two hundred million is on the low side. Don’t forget operating expenses that will go on the whole time even though we can’t even access the exchange. CEO and others still keep their unholy salaries throughout. Could use a billion in operating expenses during this time. Chapter 11 bankruptcy often lasts two or more years.


shiestyblue

To be honest if it’s 70% they could keep their shit


Saxong

I’d take 70% just to have it back in my hands and 30% as a lesson and a tax write off.


Ghostly1031

I don’t fully understand the email to be completely honest. I mean I may just be a simply minded smooth brain, but something still isn’t adding up to me.


milestparker

These sharks are relying on the fact that it won’t. People not knowing what the fuck they are up to is literally their business model.


brotherRozo

Yes in their four options it mentions we can elect the certain balance between different options… I’m like I want the best and most rectifying option please


captkeith

I made a 90% withdrawal 4-5 days before they locked down. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the funds made it into Coinbase the day before voyager made the announcement. Talk about fucking shear luck. I still have 1,500 give or take still in there. I guess I'll never see that again.


Ghostly1031

I’m gonna see my money through one means or another


captkeith

Good luck. Be careful what you say. I'm sure people are watching voyager news.


stacferg

Getting back a small percentage of our crypto that is already 80% down means a massive loss. I was happy to hold it for 4 to 5 years, I might as well have just burned my money, I am so pissed off with this bullshit.


Ghostly1031

Hell even the major coins are down 50%


vern1977

I just want to transfer my crypto assets to a cold wallet. Never again will u leave my shit on an exchange


Aeronut2

What really irks me is the fact that the entire crypto community has been working hard to make the case the most every crypto currency is a commodity not a security. I put my trust in Voyager to hold my ADA. Did they loan my coins? No. They loaned a cash equivalent. Where are my coins? I don’t want USD or anything else. Especially if the value is based on today’s prices. I just want my property, ADA, returned. Six months ago it was worth 4x what it is now. By the time this thing is settled I’m only going to get a fraction of the value of the commodity they were holding for me and someone else will be holding my coins.


GekkosGhost

Someone else already owns those coins. They loaned them to a hedge fund who sold them into the market. They've probably had several other owners since you deposited them. I understand that idea will be upsetting but think for a moment about where you bought your coins. If it was from an exchange then there's probably someone else out there with an older claim to those same coins.


BigDaddyCaddy68

Yes. And it’s not good enough.


shiestyblue

No one wants that delisted common stock


Ghostly1031

I feel like it’s still way to vague. It sounds like they’re stating “hey yea we’re gonna take SOME OF IT but like….here’s some useless stock?”


BigDaddyCaddy68

We should get everything back. This is fucking bullshit. They’re literally giving us something that will be worth literally nothing.


Ghostly1031

Maybe I’m just an autist but that’s how I interpreted the email. I just don’t understand why they would give us something if they weren’t also taking something from us. Unless it’s like a publicity thing?


BigDaddyCaddy68

So, I’ve seen them argue that we don’t actually own our coins, but they have stated in the past they’re the custodians of our coins, so you can’t have it both ways. Idk. I’m nowhere near a legal expert. I’m likely gonna join any class action that arises from this. I want my coins back. We were misled big time.


Ghostly1031

Oh I couldn’t agree more. I think we need to bring back the whole “tarring and feathering”


Fun-Airport8510

I’d tar and feather someone for the $40,000 that I lost.


ACJ1701

I don’t think they ever existed — my understanding is they paid out spreads on a gain and kept spreads on a loss — it’s like asking Madoff for the stocks he bought with your money back — this is my interpretation at least


Fun-Airport8510

They can’t give us what they already gave away to 3AC. They loaned out all our USDC and other crypto to 3 Arrows. So that’s gone.


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Rabbyte808

Where’d you see that you’re getting half of it back? I’m doubtful it will be that high.


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GekkosGhost

The business model was the crypto equivalent of fractional reserve banking. They take your crypto and lend it out to hedge funds who sold it for fiat. Someone else bought that, put it back on the exchange who then loaned it again to another hedge fund who then sold it short to another buyer. So it goes. The trick is to work out your expected redemption rate - what percentage of depositors retrieve their coins per day. You then keep that rate plus a little in reserve. Typically in fiat that's around 10 to 12% The problem is one of those hedge funds had failed and redemption will not be possible. That screws everyone on the exchange. Crypto is unregulated and withdrawals have been very very low, so it's entirely possible the remaining value is actually below the typical fiat level. However it could just as easily be a bit higher though I think it unlikely. In the sense of the email, prorata just means you all take the same percentage loss. The other model is to pay the smallest investor first such that the most people get out whole while the big boys take the losses - not popular with those most able to litigate.


adeliberateidler

Because they loaned out half of your money to a company that lost it all.


shiestyblue

“But wait there’s more” here’s some vgx


Ghostly1031

Isn’t that shite only worth like 20 cent right now and it’s only because we can’t sell is on their own platform?


shiestyblue

16, but we want your guys crypto and u can have our vgx as a trade


Ghostly1031

I’m ready to riot at this point 😂


Fun-Airport8510

They are going to keep our crypto and sell it when it goes higher. Meanwhile they will give us the “equivalent” of what we owned in worthless vgx the same day they reopen trading. On paper it will be exactly the same but will cause a run as people sell immediately causing vgx to go to zero and costing voyager nearly nothing. Basically a kill pill.


happybonobo1

Useless stock and some new shitcoin that will go to zero


Old_Inspection_6612

We will have the choice of more crypto, or their useless vgx token and voyager stock


Ghostly1031

All I want is my Bitcoin, eth., USDC, and DOT for the most part the rest is useless to me.


CurrencyHussler

No new insight. Same shit we all know.


psxndc

I don’t know about that. The email made it very clear that if you have USD in your account, you’re getting *all* that back. That’s new information to me > Is the USD in my account FDIC insured? >Yes. USD in your Voyager cash account is held at Metropolitan Commercial Bank of New York (“MCB”) and is FDIC insured. **That means you are covered in the event of MCB’s failure,** up to a maximum of $250,000 per Voyager customer. FDIC insurance does not protect against the failure of Voyager, but to be clear: **Voyager does not hold customer cash, that cash is held at MCB.** (emphasis mine) That wasn’t clear to me before and is great news for folks with USD in their account. It means fuck all to me who only had crypto, but it matters a lot for some. Edit: added emphasis


sm0klnj0e

Yes I agree. I wasn't sure that I was going to get my USD back, but now I'm pretty confident. Might take 3 years but hey... 🙃


Rabbyte808

Very bullish news on holding USD in crypto exchanges. I’m sure that’s what everybody was holding, and is in no way 0.001% of the funds Voyager was holding.


Infinite_Proposal417

I knew that days ago that USD is safe and tried to explain it to some folks, but they just would not understand 🤣 Voyager is not a bank, it can't hold anyone's USD. Period. Metropolitan holds it and Metropolitan did not fail so people will just get their money back.


brotherRozo

This is extremely important They were always touting USD is FDIC insured. I think they conveniently left the part out with all marketing, that it only applies to if the metropolitan bank fails, oh but not Voyager, that doesn’t count! 😢


ProperStandard3

>I think they conveniently left the part out with all marketing, that it only applies to if the metropolitan bank fails, oh but not Voyager, that doesn’t count! 😢 What do you mean? While how Voyager advertised FDIC was a bit misleading for some, they did not state anything that was inaccurate. This is more of misinterpretation for some. Voyager does not hold your USD. Metropolitan bank does which is FDIC insured and that is what Voyager claimed and that is accurate. And the language FDIC " does not protect against Voyager failure " is stated in Voyager customer's agreement and what that means is if Voyager does something illegal or their employees or they steal those funds. Metropolitan bank simply can't be responsible for Voyagers actions. That's all. Voyager itself is not a bank thus it cant be FDIC insured. But Metropolitan bank is and your USD is held with Metropolitan bank, not with Voyager so USD is indeed FDIC insured as they claim.


Bam_Hero

So glad I sold all my USDC as soon as they announced the 3AC loan!


GekkosGhost

>great news for folks with USD I'm not completely clear that it is. >Commercial Bank of New York (“MCB”) and is FDIC insured. That means you are covered in the event of MCB’s failure, up to a maximum of $250,000 per Voyager customer. FDIC insurance does not protect against the failure of Voyager, but to be clear: Voyager does not hold customer cash, that cash is held at MCB Ok, but is it held on a client account or is it held in a company account? It may seem like a small difference but in terms of a claim it makes all the difference in the world.


Bmwlover2

Nothing good will come of anything Voyager does. Nobody will buy a company with such a horrible reputation and failing model.


fauve

I don’t like how they referred to USD as customer assets and neglected to mention that our crypto were our assets as well.


ProperStandard3

All that is stated in Voyager agreement how USD is held and that it is FDIC insured. Not crypto. That is an investment that you can lose and that can go to zero, and it is stated in their agreement, and also stated that they can loan your crypto or do whatever. Not USD because Voyager is not a bank thus it can't hold or use customer's USD. Not their money/ assets so by law, they must be returned. USD funds literally belongs to USD customers which are held by Metropolitan Bank on behalf of those customers. Voyager does not hold them nor they can. Holding crypto on a centralized exchange is a risk unfortunately everyone knows about.


fauve

I accept that my coins can go to zero, but I want them. They advertised they were a brokerage, not an exchange.


ProperStandard3

Does not matter if a brokerage or an exchange. All that is stated in their agreement. This is the same as a well known reputable Fidelity, for example, also an investment brokerage. Because of the normal risks inherent in investing, insurance against loss of value, etc is never provided. Same with any investment brokerage. Look at Lehman Brothers collapse and when they filed Chapter 11, all was lost but USD funds were returned.


fauve

This should not be obscured information. If my stock goes to .01 in my Schwab account, that’s not on Schwab and the stock is still my asset. You’re not speaking with an idiot. I’m an investigative accountant who specializes in criminal cases with over 30 years of experience and have testified as an expert witness in countless cases.


Speedevil911

Agree, we should at least have access to our assets, cryto.


ProperStandard3

When Lehman Brothers which was also an investment financial firm went bankrupt, many investors lost everything except for USD which had to be returned. Same could happen with Schwab or any other investment company. Any company can become insolvent. And I am not sure how your "investigative accountant " experience has anything to do with this whatever that means. I understand what USD is, how it's held, and why it must be returned and all that is stated in Voyagers agreement about it and about crypto and how Voyager can loan it and do whatever, that we all agreed to. I also understand that my crypto or any investment is not protected, and I can lose all of it not just because of crypto going to zero but because of companies going bankrupt. I would assume with your claimed background you would know that too. Also, I think it is ridiculous anyways to even compare stocks and regulated market with unregulated crypto assets. Voyager could be compromised or hacked too like an exchange can and then your crypto would be gone too.


fauve

My point in stating my background, is that if terms and services weren’t clear to a person who knows more than the average man on the street, they certainly weren’t clear to those who are. I repeat, they advertised as a brokerage and crypto is a hairbreadth away from a security, especially as Voyager marketed it.


fauve

And, as for Lehman, it’s my firm belief that the executives were guilty of criminal offenses. An asset is an asset is an asset.


ProperStandard3

These are your beliefs and maybe it was, maybe it was not. Maybe unethical but not criminal but irrelevant. The point is many investment companies and brokerages have gone insolvent. And they can. That's all. Only USD is FDIC insured. Nothing else. We assume the risk when we invest. Especially with unregulated crypto, we are really screwed here! I suggest to get your own wallet. Most of my crypto is in my own wallet. My crypto loss is minimal with Voyager, and we do get USD back.


fauve

Why would anyone hold USD on a crypto brokerage? There’s no point other than advertising the fact to lure in naive investors who believe their USDC is insured.


ProperStandard3

Many did. 350 million in FBO account according to the bk docs. Due to many reasons. I did because it was safe and FDIC insured, so I am ready to buy when it's time. A friend of mine has 40k there for that same reason. A few others around me have 6 figure of USD there. Again, was not a concern for anyone because it is FDIC insured and safe. Not so much with USDC. Nope, especially after UST stablecoin collapse plus the risk of having it on an exchange or brokerage , I had no desire to convert it into USDC. So you are just speculating, again and looking for someone to blame.


[deleted]

Big business will win once more , we are fucked !


delfin_1980

Can someone please make a poll to ask how many of us actually have a meaningful amount of USD on the Voyager exchange??? I'm guessing it's not a lot of us.


johnso21

I have over 250k usd. So just because it doesn’t apply to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply to thousands of others to the tune of 350M


ProperStandard3

350 million is a lot.


ayeron2021

I’m wondering what the cap is gonna be for crypto I’ll take the max if it’s more than what I had in there. And they can keep their shit stick and vgx token


Ghostly1031

Agreed. But at the same time I also hold on the account over 15k worth of eth/bit/dot/USDC and I’d like to put it on a cold wallet because I know good and god damn well they won’t cover me that much


ayeron2021

I got $75k in USDC…. So hoping the cap is right around there 🤞🏽🤣


Ghostly1031

I guess we will have to maybe get drunk together lol


ayeron2021

🍺


Ghostly1031

Im about to make some drinks as we speak 🥃


warrene00

Here is what I do not get as far as the Chapter 11 route. They only truly have 2 options. Liquidate under Chapter 7 or sell. What possible reason could they have for even attempting a reorganization. The moment the customer base (incl. me) have access to their funds they will immediately transfer them off in total. There is an almost zero possibility of them building a new customer base after this whole mess. I think the only possible reorganization plan would be to give everyone back 100% of crypto AND a stake in the newly formed corp as a *mea culpa* for putting everyone through this. And that is simply not financially possible. So their expectation is what? Provide everyone a 50% pro-rata share of their crypto (maybe) and expect customers to stick with them after that. And entice new customers under that backdrop? Jesus, either just liquidate in total or sell. You are 100% done as a company no matter the result.


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warrene00

That sounda about right…. And they will end up with a client base of 1 person…their own shitty CEO.


rctocm

I thought MCB said "hell no those USD aren't FDIC insured because Voyager failed, not us."


rctocm

According to Forbes: "While no cryptocurrency with Voyager was insured, the brokerage said it insured any USD held with Voyager because of its “strategic partnership” with Metropolitan Commercial Bank. However, Voyager held an omnibus account at the New York-based bank. Omnibus accounts are accounts that allow for managed trades of more than one person, meaning that Voyager’s Metropolitan Commercial account likely held multiple Voyager users. This one account may have been insured for $250,000 - not $250,000 per customer." It is very likely Voyager will just "cover" the USD in our accounts and take that loss from the amounts they can pay us back for all the cryptocurrencies we had with them. Seems non-compliant with the advertising that it was FDIC insured and they're covering over this fraud on their part which could open them up to more allegations of funds shifting to where they shouldn't.


Ghostly1031

I love how on their blog they mentioned “oh we noticed that y’all notice that we changed some information on our website”


ACJ1701

Exactly.


Infinite_Proposal417

No, some of you guys still don't get. I have been trying to explain this to some folks for days. FDIC is irrelevant here. USD is held with the bank, not with Voyager. Voyager can't hold, use, control USD because Voyager is not a bank. Period. USD is held by Metropolitan which is FDIC insured and Metropolitan DID NOT FAIL. So you do not need to file a FDIC claim, you will just get your money back because Metropolitan DID NOT fail. Again, Voyager never used customer's USD. Never maintained it, never held it. It can't because it is not a bank. Only banks can.


delfin_1980

This is right, but also, very importantly, the vast majority of what any of us have in Voyager is crypto, not USD. The main reason anyone would have USD sitting in there is just briefly transitioning it into or out of the account when buying or selling crypto on the exchange. Most of us have very little to zero USD in Voyager, so this is not a huge help. On the other hand for those with a significant amount of USD stuck in Voyager it's good news, you should get it back, congratulations.


Infinite_Proposal417

I know 2 people just in my circle who have 6 figure of USD sitting there. And one who has 30k because he was simply waiting for the right time to buy and was not worried about it since it was FDIC insured. Just because it was safe and FDIC insured as everyone thought, there are actually many who had USD sitting there for whatever reasons.


delfin_1980

This is great news for them then! I'm happy to hear it. I only have a relatively small amount invested but it's all in crypto and I'm not expecting to get it back.


Infinite_Proposal417

Total of USD there is 350 million in the FBO account per bankruptcy docs so this is quite a bit of people holding USD there.


delfin_1980

Oh wow! Just curious, WHY would anyone hold USD in Voyager, other than moving it in and out in the process of buying/selling crypto?


Infinite_Proposal417

Some just had it there to be ready to buy. I was in the same situation. I was going to withdraw but I said eh, I will leave it there in case I want to buy something since it is safe and FDIC insured. I don't know what others reasons people may have, but I am sure people had their reasons and mainly it was not a concern for anyone since it was FDIC insured and safe. A friend of mine had it there waiting for the right time to buy.


delfin_1980

Well the good news is it sounds like you will get it back!


rctocm

As long as it actually was in such said legitimate account, sure. Hard to believe a company that is under investigation though.


ProperStandard3

What investigation? Maybe some misleading advertising, but not really even that. All its customers USD is held in a special type of bank account called a For Benefit of Customers (“FBO”) account at Metropolitan Commercial Bank of New York (“MCB”). That is a fact confirmed by multiple sources and Voyagers themselves, their agreement, bk docs, and the law itself about USD since only bank can hold USD. In addition, the USD held in the FBO account is equal to the amount of USD in its customers’ accounts. Furthermore, all the USD in customers’ cash accounts held at MCB is FDIC insured. Consequently, each customer is covered up to a maximum of $250k. The FDIC provides separate coverage for deposits held in different account ownership categories. And Voyager's customers agreement makes that clear as well with this wording: "Therefore, each Customer is a customer of the Bank"


rctocm

Oh that's awesome that they updated their website in a timely manner to make the fob part clear. /s And in answer to your investigation question, several states and the SEC. And the FDIC The statement you made regarding each customer covered up to $250k... I'm not so sure about that... an omnibus account is one account for one commercial customer and that total would be $250k. Not $250k x # of Voyager customers.


ProperStandard3

All that has always been explained in Voyagers customers agreement how and where USD is held. SEC? What investigation SEC is doing? FDIC - eh, they are only checking if they advertise it incorrectly or if it was misleading. And no, omnibus deposits are deposit accounts owned by many people that are issued by the bank to a fiduciary or custodian for the benefit of its customers through a single omnibus bank account. And read again what I stated: "The FDIC provides separate coverage for deposits held in different account ownership categories. And Voyager's customers agreement makes that clear as well with this wording: "Therefore, each Customer is a customer of the Bank". It is up to 250k per customer. If you have a join bank account with 2 people, FDIC does not sure per account but per customer/depositor. Also, it would be crazy to assume that FBO account with 350 million in it is only insured up to 250k No, this is not how this works.


rctocm

Catching up at lunch. I remember reading a former FDIC staff statement which made it sound different. That's what I hinged on. If he's wrong that's good. If it's per customer and all dots and crosses done, good. I cant tell if your text is quotes or your statements or what. Investigation: you asked I said. How do you guys have time to find all this info?


ProperStandard3

FDIC staff statement did not say anything related to that. All they said is Voyaer is not FDIC insured and FDIC does not protect Voyager's failure which is all accurate. Because USD is held with MCB and MCB is FDIC insured and it did not fail, and that MCB can't be liable for any illegal actions by Voyager. Which is all accurate. Voyager itself is not FDIC insured nor crypto is. Some people also thought that Voyager is FDIC insured and all their assets included crypto is protected. My quoted text was from Voyager customer agreement. >Investigation: you asked I said. How do you guys have time to find all this info? Not sure what that means. We have enough time time find relevant info because many of us have a lot of USD stuck in Voyager lol Anyways, does not really matter, have a good day 😁


rctocm

My understanding was based on this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mariagraciasantillanalinares/2022/07/08/former-fdic-regulator-on-what-comes-next-in-its-investigation-of-bankrupt-crypto-brokerage-voyager-digital/?sh=3449153c47e6 "The Wall Street Journal reported that a statement on Voyager’s website said customers would receive reimbursement in “the rare event your USD funds are compromised due to the company or our banking partner’s failure.” However that statement has now been changed to read solely “in the rare event your USD funds are compromised.” “They probably didn’t have protection for every depositor,” Brett says." I feel that understanding is incorrect based on what you folks have said and shown. Thanks.


rctocm

Wouldn't Voyager have been custodian of this account though? You really think they listed all of us individuals on that account with the bank or even had separate accounts for all of us there? That's the crux because if not, it is vulnerable to bankruptcy proceedings, liquidation, and pro-rata.


Infinite_Proposal417

I am really tried of explaining this to folks. Read Voyagers agreement, the bankruptcy paperwork, USD law about USD - (just a simple fact that only banks can hold USD), and read the court hearing. And now their email confirming this again. I know Voyager included that in their email because too many still don't get it. I dont know how it can't be even more clear. USD is held by Metropolitan bank as FBO account( FOR Benefit of Customers). Voyager does not control, maintain or do anything with that USD. It can't. Those are NOT Voyagers assets. Those are literally USD customer's funds. Creditors can't claims them. No, it is not vulnerable to bankruptcy proceedings. And USD customers are not creditors of those funds. They belong to them. Even during the court hearing, Voyager attorney confirmed that those funds belong to USD customers and will go back to them as it should. And here how and where USD is held from Voyagers agreement: "Account Funding; Regulatory Treatment (A) Customer Cash. Customer understands and acknowledges that Customer may arrange to deposit United States Dollars (“USD” or “Cash”) into the Account. Cash deposited into the Customer’s Account is maintained in an omnibus account at Metropolitan Commercial Bank (the “Bank”), which is a member of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (“FDIC”). Voyager maintains an agreement with the Bank whereby the Bank provides all services associated with the movement of and holding of USD in connection with the provision of each Account. Therefore, each Customer is a customer of the Bank. All U.S. regulatory obligations associated with the movement of, and holding of, USD in connection with each Account are the responsibility of the Bank. For purposes of clarity, any services pertaining to the movement of, and holding of, USD are not provided by Voyager or its Affiliates. Cash in the Account is insured up to $250,000 per depositor by the FDIC in the event the Bank fails if specific insurance deposit requirements are met." Per Bankruptcy paperwork: When we send voyager our funds it goes straight into the “FBO” account, and when we sell crypto the exchange sends our cash directly into the “FBO”. This means is that Metropolitan bank is 100% responsible for USD. !!!Metropolitan did NOT fail!!! They have the operating account and our separate “FBO” account with 355M. Each day voyager sends a report to Metropolitan with our cash balance. All transactions go through Voyagers operating account. Our ach withdrawal comes from voyager main operating account, and then it is reimbursed through the FBO account. Voyager is a publicly traded SEC registered company. Everyone can see everything. The only way someone would not get their USD is if Voyager literally stole those funds. And that's an dumb idea. When Lehman Brothers filed Chapter 11, everyone got their USD back because just like Voyager, they were not a bank, they do not hold anyone's USD not they can. They cant not hold it, cant maintain it, let alone use it. The bank does. People are too wrapped up with this whole FDIC thing but it is irrelevant because Metropolitan Bank did not fail for anyone to be concerned about FDIC insurance to begin with. Simple as that.


macphisto23

You're doing God's work! I've been trying to explain this and most won't listen.


Infinite_Proposal417

Yup, I am so so tired of explaining this 🤦‍♀️🤣 Like people omg, come on!


brotherRozo

Yes you are right it’s absolutely irrelevant Someone linked a Forbes article above that investigated that the bank in New York had omnibus accounts that were insured $250,000 per account but not $250,000 per customer so they were bundling a lot of small fish together


Infinite_Proposal417

Yea, irrelevant. Because Metropolitan did not fail so no one needs to be concerned about filing any FDIC claims to get their USD. They will just get back their USD. After reconciliation and a fraud prevention process is completed by Metropolitan bank as they said.


ProperStandard3

No, not that it is relevant since Metropolitan did not fail, but all its customers USD is held in a special type of bank account called a For Benefit of Customers (“FBO”) account at Metropolitan Commercial Bank of New York (“MCB”). That is a fact confirmed by multiple sources and Voyagers themselves. In addition, the USD held in the FBO account is equal to the amount of USD in its customers’ accounts. Furthermore, all the USD in customers’ cash accounts held at MCB is FDIC insured. Consequently, each customer is covered up to a maximum of $250k. The FDIC provides separate coverage for deposits held in different account ownership categories. And Voyager's customers agreement makes that clear as well with this wording: "Therefore, each Customer is a customer of the Bank" 250k coverage is per customer. When you have a joined account , for example, it is also not 250k per account but per customer. So if joined account has 2 customers, than 250k per customer.


Ghostly1031

Their newest email says otherwise 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️


visoleil

I don’t want to let them pit us holders against each other. We’re all victims here, and Steve & Co. are the actual villains. But how is it fair that people who had USD there will get all of it back, while those of us who actually purchased something from them will have it all stolen and only part of it given back? I understand that USD holders were insured, but didn’t they also say every account holder was insured - whether you held USD or crypto?


Ghostly1031

I couldn’t agree more! Personally I was just only using it as a holding agent until I got my cold wallet in the mail, and now im not probably gonna see any of it. All because they wanted to use my own personal crypto as a means to make investments (after they already skim money off the top of assets by pricing it slightly above market value) similar to a bank.


visoleil

Exactly! It’s terrible. I wish I had gotten my coins off onto a wallet sooner myself. I hope it eventually works out for everyone. Good luck!


Ghostly1031

Good luck to you buddy. I’m around if ya need me


Infinite_Proposal417

I did yes


Ghostly1031

What do you think on it


Infinite_Proposal417

Was not anything new to me. Just confirmed what I already knew and tried to explain to some people🤷‍♀️


Historical-Flow-1820

> We can’t thank you enough for your continued support. Well it’s not like we really have a choice now do we?


Ghostly1031

It reminds me of the robots from iRobot to will smith “please do not resist please do not resist “😂😂


gtg007w

Can someone provide context on this update, and more importantly, if they actually sent us an email notifying us of the change? Whenever they change ToS, they're supposed to notify us, correct? **Why did your website change the way it talked about FDIC insurance?** *Voyager worked with the FDIC in early 2021 and again in early 2022 to update and clarify the language on its website. Please also see Voyager’s customer agreement, which provides further details on the regulatory treatment of cash deposits and the scope of FDIC insurance. Outdated pages of a blog from 2019 are being updated to be consistent with this clarification.*


Infinite_Proposal417

Read Voyagers agreement about USD: "Account Funding; Regulatory Treatment (A) Customer Cash. Customer understands and acknowledges that Customer may arrange to deposit United States Dollars (“USD” or “Cash”) into the Account. Cash deposited into the Customer’s Account is maintained in an omnibus account at Metropolitan Commercial Bank (the “Bank”), which is a member of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (“FDIC”). Voyager maintains an agreement with the Bank whereby the Bank provides all services associated with the movement of and holding of USD in connection with the provision of each Account. Therefore, each Customer is a customer of the Bank. All U.S. regulatory obligations associated with the movement of, and holding of, USD in connection with each Account are the responsibility of the Bank. For purposes of clarity, any services pertaining to the movement of, and holding of, USD are not provided by Voyager or its Affiliates. Cash in the Account is insured up to $250,000 per depositor by the FDIC in the event the Bank fails if specific insurance deposit requirements are met. " This is clear. Voyager does not hold USD. Period. Metropolitan bank does which is FDIC insured. All is accurate. Metropolitan did not fail so no one needs to concerned themselves with FDIC insurance claims.


gtg007w

So they changed the wording of this from an earlier version that may have stated that FDIC applied in case of voyager being bankrupt versus metropolitan commercial?


Infinite_Proposal417

No, this has always been in Voyager's agreement since I started using Voyager for a year at least. And not sure what you mean by " may have stated that FDIC applied in case of voyager being bankrupt versus metropolitan commercial?" FDIC does not insure Voyager. It can't. FDIC only applies to banks and USD. Voyager never claimed that Voyager is FDIC insured and all their ads and marketing stated that USD with Voyager is FDIC insured which is accurate. Voyager being bankrupt changes nothing for USD because Voyager does not hold USD. Metropolitan does. I think, some people aren't understanding that Voyager never held USD. They can't. The wording in their agreement that "FDIC does not protect against Voyager failure " is still there and that simply means if Voyager does something illegal or steal those funds, etc. Metropolitan simply can't be responsible for any illegal activities by Voyager. That is all. But Voyager does not hold, maintain or use customer's USD. It can't. Only a bank can which is FDIC insured as they claimed and that is accurate.


gtg007w

Ok thanks, but ultimately not answering my question, so back to my first question then - what exactly is the blog post referring to that changed?


Infinite_Proposal417

I am not sure because I am not sure what blog post you are referring to but based on what you said, Voyager tells you to refer to their Customers agreement the "cash" part which is what I posted.


gtg007w

It's the [blog post](https://www.investvoyager.com/blog/update-on-customer-assets) that is linked in the most recent email Voyager sent out and references, which is the main topic of this very thread.


Secure_Hearing6901

Last Friday, Voyager presented what are referred to as “First Day Motions” as part of our Chapter 11 filing to the U.S Bankruptcy Court. We were granted the relief requested. This was the first step in the restructuring process, which is intended to address the company’s financial circumstances and allow us to resume normal operations. We know you have many questions, and we are moving swiftly to give you answers. Below and in this more detailed blog post, we’ve tried to respond to your most pressing inquiries. How does the reorganization process impact my cash? We are working to restore access to USD deposits. Customer USD belongs to customers and will return to those same customers, subject to a reconciliation and fraud prevention process. Is the USD in my account FDIC insured? Yes. USD in your Voyager cash account is held at Metropolitan Commercial Bank of New York (“MCB”) and is FDIC insured. That means you are covered in the event of MCB’s failure, up to a maximum of $250,000 per Voyager customer. FDIC insurance does not protect against the failure of Voyager, but to be clear: Voyager does not hold customer cash, that cash is held at MCB. What will happen to the crypto in my account? Voyager currently has approximately $1.3 billion of crypto assets on its platform, plus claims against Three Arrows Capital ("3AC") of more than $650 million (it fluctuates due to the exchange rate between Bitcoin and USD). Under Voyager’s proposed reorganization plan, which is subject to change and requires Court approval, customers will receive a combination of the following, with the ability to select the proportion of crypto and common equity they receive, subject to certain maximum thresholds: Pro-rata share of crypto; Pro-rata share of proceeds from the 3AC recovery; Pro-rata share of common shares in the newly reorganized Company; and Pro-rata share of existing Voyager tokens. Can you tell me how much of my crypto I’ll get back? At this stage, we are proposing that customers will receive their crypto as described above. However, the exact numbers will depend on what happens in the restructuring process and the recovery of 3AC assets. We understand how important this issue is and will provide updates as soon as possible. What’s next? Our next Court hearing is on August 4, 2022, where we will seek further relief to stabilize operations and further advance the restructuring. As the restructuring continues, you may receive notices with updates on additional legal and procedural milestones. This includes a Notice of Commencement, a required, customary legal document indicating that Voyager and its subsidiaries have filed voluntary petitions for Chapter 11 reorganization. This notice requires no action on your part. Further details on the restructuring, including relevant court filings, is available at https://cases.stretto.com/Voyager, or by calling +1 (855) 473-8665 (U.S. toll-free) or +1 (949) 271-6507 (international). We can’t thank you enough for your continued support. We’ve worked hard to share everything we can at this point; you have our continued commitment that we will keep you updated. We are moving through this process as quickly as we can. Regards, Team Voyager


SpacCity

What willl happen to voyager stock of chapter 11 is approved ? Would be worthless since they are trying to restructure to a new company and new shares ?


state0222

It wasn’t much compared to some others here. It was $650 in USDC to take advantage of that 9% I’m still sick to my stomach about this. That was my Christmas savings