Seems pretty clear that if an action is a fireable offense you would be fired immediately. Otherwise by definition it was not. File that appeal! Good luck, so sorry you have to deal with this :( <3
They are saying that the delay in terminating me was because the incident occurred on a holiday, and the people that needed to be present to terminate me. Is there any counter this argument?
You should [file an appeal.](https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/dwd/publications/ui/hearing.htm) The employer has the burden of [proving misconduct](https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/uiben/handbook/glossary.htm#misconduct) and to make this charge stick, they must prove that this was a willful and deliberate act of negligence and it had an adverse affect on company operations. At best, this seems like a simple mistake given that they kept you on the schedule for several weeks, performing the same task, and issued no write-up or additional training. Not seeing misconduct here based on what you described.
They will certainly argue that your action was negligent and could have resulted in the store being burglarized, but this is where you counter that:
*It was your first time closing by yourself.
*You were not immediately fired
*Your employer issued no write-up or additional training to correct your mistake
*You continued to do store closings and had no further incidents.
In general, administrative law judges do not view one-time mistakes as misconduct unless your behaviour was so egregious that it put the business, yourself or your co-workers in immediate danger. For example, I have fired employees for being intoxicated while working. Even though these were one-time occurrences, none of them got unemployment because they were drunk to the point of slurring their speech, dropping food on the floor, brandishing knives, etc..
If your behavior was this egregious or negligent, you should have been fired immediately. (This is why it is so important to get your dates in order) At a bare minimum, there should have been a write-up, additional training, or supervised closings. However, your employer did not take immediate or corrective action and trusted you enough to continue working in the same capacity for some time thereafter. A reasonable person would assume your employer recognized the improper closing was a mistake, and you took their feedback seriously enough to have no further incidents.
Hope this helps!
After accidentally leaving the lockbox not fully locked, they did very briefly show me how the lockbox works to make sure I understood how to properly lock it. Does that change anything?
They are saying that the delay in terminating me was because the incident occurred on a holiday, and the people that needed to be present to terminate me. Is there any counter this argument?
So they let you work for several more weeks closing the store by yourself because there was no one present to fire you? Who was managing the store? If your behavior was that egregious, they would not have risked the safety and security of the business and would have fired you on the spot. Anyone in management can terminate a line-level employee.
I think you have a good shot of using the fact that they were comfortable allowing you to be responsible for this very task, multiple times after this alleged "fireable offense" occurred. They sound pretty silly saying that it put the company in harm's way, yet continued to order you to do that very thing.
My denial due to misconduct determination was overturned in appeal. They always side with the company when they claim it was misconduct so they always try to blame it on misconduct. It’s a way to get out of paying unemployment. Don’t let them convince you that you don’t deserve unemployment. File that appeal!
I think the fact that you continued to be employed after the lock box incident could be an argument for “Wrongful Termination.” If it is such a serious offense why did they keep you on as an employee for several weeks after it happened? Especially since nothing happened as a result of your actions! File the appeal and set the wheels in motion. In the meantime you can become versed on labor laws pertaining to your situation. If by the time the appeal comes around and you don’t think you have a case cancel or no show it.
They are saying that the delay in terminating me was because the incident occurred on a holiday, and the people that needed to be present to terminate me. Is there any counter this argument?
It seems the fact that they left you doing the same “fireable offense”, namely locking the store, is your best counter argument. You mean to tell me that there was no one, other then the people who were out of town apparently for several weeks, who could handle the matter? They couldn’t of contacted whoever was in charge of the store while they were gone to take care of the matter? The fact they kept you employed, doing same duty they considered as a “fireable offense” sets a precedent that they indeed did not consider it to be one.
This is not "[wrongful termination ](https://www.findlaw.com/employment/losing-a-job/wrongful-termination.html)" and not an argument that should be made in a legal context like an unemployment appeal. To be terminated wrongfully is to be fired illegally, usually in violation of legal statute (like discrimination or retaliation) or breach of an employment contract
>This is not "wrongful termination" and not an argument that should be made in a legal context like an unemployment appeal. To be terminated wrongfully is to be fired illegally, usually in violation of legal statute (like discrimination or retaliation) or breach of an employment contract
100% correct.
The disqualifying issue is whether the claimant was fired for misconduct. The misconduct charge is literally the only thing that matters. If you're going to invoke a legal term in a legal setting to defend your claim, then you need to use it correctly. This is not it.
Don’t want to argue with you but I can cite a case that disputes what you’re saying! I’d rather enjoy my day then nitpick this with you! So you win. I’m out!
Not wrongful termination here.
*California wrongful termination occurs whenever an employee is fired for an illegal reason. If this happens, you can sue your employer to recover damages. In some cases, the employer will have to pay significant extra penalties and costs.*
There is nothing illegal about this termination. The claimant likely made a mistake and didn't properly lock the box. Employer can fire OP for that. But a single mistake or lapse in judgment is not misconduct, especially when the employer suffers no tangible harm. On top of that, the incident is too remote to be the "final straw" incident. As others stated, if the lockbox incident was so bad, the employer needed to fire the OP then and certainly not allow OP to continue working and perform closing duties.
The employer has to prove the claimant had some sort of intent or grossly negligent. Doesn't appear to be the case here.
If the employer claims it’s misconduct and it’s determined there was no misconduct, and the employee not only got fired but wasn’t offered their job back, that’s wrongful termination.
Edit: maybe OP can consult with an attorney to verify
That is not how it works at all and I don't need to consult (another) attorney to confirm. Plus wrongful termination and unemployment are separate things with different requirements and criteria. But in the present case, unless the claimant can prove the employer really fired OP for an illegal reason and lied and said it was the lockbox incident, there is no wrongful termination issue.
*"I am now ineligible for unemployment until 4/22/23 and until I earn at least $5,180, which basically means I can’t get any unemployment."*
You also need an additional job separation as well. You need to fight this. I believe you have a very very good chance at prevailing in an appeal - as long as you go in prepared. There really isn't any plausible reason that the employer to give to explain having you stay on if the incident was something that called for immediate termination without warning. Send in a short concise explanation, with dates if possible when you appeal.
*"Though I do not think that I left the lockbox unsecured on xx-xx-xxxx, if I did it was completely accidental and due to my inexperience. No harm came from it. The company did not fire me or tell me my job was in jeopardy. I was schedule to work and close the store again on xx-xx-xxxx, and list other dates. Then, I was completely blindsided on xx-xx-xxxx when they terminated me for the original incident. I had no warning and I did my best for this company. I am hoping to reverse the original determination so I can receive my benefits."*
You've got this. Keep us posted.
This is what I included in my appeal. I probably could have done a better job, but I was still kind of upset that I got disqualified from unemployment that I rushed to file the appeal so I rushed making the appeal.
“I was not told that what I did was a fireable offense. After the incident, I was still employed for multiple days, possibly weeks afterward. I even closed and locked up the same store by myself multiple times after the incident. Also, I accidentally did not properly close the lockbox, not on purchase, so I don't see why it should be labeled as misconduct and not as a mistake or me not being able to meet the requirements of the job.”
What you wrote is not the same as what the other poster wrote... In your post you said you didn't know you left it unlocked until they told you but in your appeal you are basically admitting you did leave it unlocked?
> I accidentally did not properly close the lockbox,
Also, this?
> After the incident, I was still employed for multiple days, possibly weeks afterward
What does that even mean? You can't figure out how long you worked there? This is an unemployment appeal, almost like a real court room. You have to have dates and at least know how long you worked there.
I’m working on getting the official dates, and the point I was trying to make in my appeal is that I did not leave it unlocked on purpose. I only realized I accidentally left it unlocked when they told me the following day.
Just because you said you “accidentally did not properly secure” blah blah, does not equal admission of guilt. The other poster is wrong. They told you you left it unlocked that’s why you said you did. That’s definition gaslighting. You swore you locked up properly but they told you you didn’t but with no proof, which made you question your own truth and you were scared to to go against the authority figure even though they may have been incorrectly informed, we don’t know. That’s what I was trying to point out. If they don’t have proof, how could they successfully argue that with unemployment. I think you can win your appeal easily.
Unfortunately, I have a terrible memory when it comes to dates, and I cannot recall the specific date that I was informed I forgot to lock up the store. The only possible way I can think of getting it is falling Mattress Firm and asking, but I don’t know if they would want to give me that date.
You need to go back through your phone, text, emails, notes, calendar and try your best to recreate a timeline. Without this, your case is weak. VERY important. Try to remember what days of the week and then even if you have to saw "on or about" or "the week of \_\_\_" Otherwise, they can claim this all happened within days or a week or so. That is NOT good.
I mean, can they even prove you left it unlocked? That’s what I would bring up. If they didn’t write you up on the spot or have picture proof, I would deny their claim of misconduct. Just a thought 🤷🏻♀️
> I accidentally did not properly close the lockbox
Op admitted to leaving it unlocked in his appeal so there is no need for the employer the prove it. Otherwise, I agree.
File the appeal. My ex had a similar situation and when it went before the judge/mediator (whichever), and his company explained his offense, the judge sat silent for a second, then said, "And?" Then he ruled in my husband's favor. Always appeal. The worst that happens is you lose.
Always fight and appeal. It's like a jobs "law" to fight it, so keep appealing. You'll get it.
Just like how jobs try to say if you quit you can't get unemployment and if you're fired you can't get unemployment, when you can get unemployment for quitting AND if fired. Only if you did something super bad and provable, then you won't get unemployment.
Seems pretty clear that if an action is a fireable offense you would be fired immediately. Otherwise by definition it was not. File that appeal! Good luck, so sorry you have to deal with this :( <3
They are saying that the delay in terminating me was because the incident occurred on a holiday, and the people that needed to be present to terminate me. Is there any counter this argument?
You should [file an appeal.](https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/dwd/publications/ui/hearing.htm) The employer has the burden of [proving misconduct](https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/uiben/handbook/glossary.htm#misconduct) and to make this charge stick, they must prove that this was a willful and deliberate act of negligence and it had an adverse affect on company operations. At best, this seems like a simple mistake given that they kept you on the schedule for several weeks, performing the same task, and issued no write-up or additional training. Not seeing misconduct here based on what you described.
Couldn't they argue that my failure to properly secure the lockbox was a result of carelessness or negligence, intentional or not?
They will certainly argue that your action was negligent and could have resulted in the store being burglarized, but this is where you counter that: *It was your first time closing by yourself. *You were not immediately fired *Your employer issued no write-up or additional training to correct your mistake *You continued to do store closings and had no further incidents. In general, administrative law judges do not view one-time mistakes as misconduct unless your behaviour was so egregious that it put the business, yourself or your co-workers in immediate danger. For example, I have fired employees for being intoxicated while working. Even though these were one-time occurrences, none of them got unemployment because they were drunk to the point of slurring their speech, dropping food on the floor, brandishing knives, etc.. If your behavior was this egregious or negligent, you should have been fired immediately. (This is why it is so important to get your dates in order) At a bare minimum, there should have been a write-up, additional training, or supervised closings. However, your employer did not take immediate or corrective action and trusted you enough to continue working in the same capacity for some time thereafter. A reasonable person would assume your employer recognized the improper closing was a mistake, and you took their feedback seriously enough to have no further incidents. Hope this helps!
After accidentally leaving the lockbox not fully locked, they did very briefly show me how the lockbox works to make sure I understood how to properly lock it. Does that change anything?
They are saying that the delay in terminating me was because the incident occurred on a holiday, and the people that needed to be present to terminate me. Is there any counter this argument?
So they let you work for several more weeks closing the store by yourself because there was no one present to fire you? Who was managing the store? If your behavior was that egregious, they would not have risked the safety and security of the business and would have fired you on the spot. Anyone in management can terminate a line-level employee.
I think you have a good shot of using the fact that they were comfortable allowing you to be responsible for this very task, multiple times after this alleged "fireable offense" occurred. They sound pretty silly saying that it put the company in harm's way, yet continued to order you to do that very thing.
My denial due to misconduct determination was overturned in appeal. They always side with the company when they claim it was misconduct so they always try to blame it on misconduct. It’s a way to get out of paying unemployment. Don’t let them convince you that you don’t deserve unemployment. File that appeal!
I think the fact that you continued to be employed after the lock box incident could be an argument for “Wrongful Termination.” If it is such a serious offense why did they keep you on as an employee for several weeks after it happened? Especially since nothing happened as a result of your actions! File the appeal and set the wheels in motion. In the meantime you can become versed on labor laws pertaining to your situation. If by the time the appeal comes around and you don’t think you have a case cancel or no show it.
They are saying that the delay in terminating me was because the incident occurred on a holiday, and the people that needed to be present to terminate me. Is there any counter this argument?
It seems the fact that they left you doing the same “fireable offense”, namely locking the store, is your best counter argument. You mean to tell me that there was no one, other then the people who were out of town apparently for several weeks, who could handle the matter? They couldn’t of contacted whoever was in charge of the store while they were gone to take care of the matter? The fact they kept you employed, doing same duty they considered as a “fireable offense” sets a precedent that they indeed did not consider it to be one.
This is not "[wrongful termination ](https://www.findlaw.com/employment/losing-a-job/wrongful-termination.html)" and not an argument that should be made in a legal context like an unemployment appeal. To be terminated wrongfully is to be fired illegally, usually in violation of legal statute (like discrimination or retaliation) or breach of an employment contract
>This is not "wrongful termination" and not an argument that should be made in a legal context like an unemployment appeal. To be terminated wrongfully is to be fired illegally, usually in violation of legal statute (like discrimination or retaliation) or breach of an employment contract 100% correct.
Said “could be” not is! Adjudicator can decide.
The disqualifying issue is whether the claimant was fired for misconduct. The misconduct charge is literally the only thing that matters. If you're going to invoke a legal term in a legal setting to defend your claim, then you need to use it correctly. This is not it.
Don’t want to argue with you but I can cite a case that disputes what you’re saying! I’d rather enjoy my day then nitpick this with you! So you win. I’m out!
Not wrongful termination here. *California wrongful termination occurs whenever an employee is fired for an illegal reason. If this happens, you can sue your employer to recover damages. In some cases, the employer will have to pay significant extra penalties and costs.* There is nothing illegal about this termination. The claimant likely made a mistake and didn't properly lock the box. Employer can fire OP for that. But a single mistake or lapse in judgment is not misconduct, especially when the employer suffers no tangible harm. On top of that, the incident is too remote to be the "final straw" incident. As others stated, if the lockbox incident was so bad, the employer needed to fire the OP then and certainly not allow OP to continue working and perform closing duties. The employer has to prove the claimant had some sort of intent or grossly negligent. Doesn't appear to be the case here.
If the employer claims it’s misconduct and it’s determined there was no misconduct, and the employee not only got fired but wasn’t offered their job back, that’s wrongful termination. Edit: maybe OP can consult with an attorney to verify
That is not how it works at all and I don't need to consult (another) attorney to confirm. Plus wrongful termination and unemployment are separate things with different requirements and criteria. But in the present case, unless the claimant can prove the employer really fired OP for an illegal reason and lied and said it was the lockbox incident, there is no wrongful termination issue.
If I were OP I’d consult with a different attorney and get a second opinion rather than some random redditor who I’m sure is a bonafide attorney.
*"I am now ineligible for unemployment until 4/22/23 and until I earn at least $5,180, which basically means I can’t get any unemployment."* You also need an additional job separation as well. You need to fight this. I believe you have a very very good chance at prevailing in an appeal - as long as you go in prepared. There really isn't any plausible reason that the employer to give to explain having you stay on if the incident was something that called for immediate termination without warning. Send in a short concise explanation, with dates if possible when you appeal. *"Though I do not think that I left the lockbox unsecured on xx-xx-xxxx, if I did it was completely accidental and due to my inexperience. No harm came from it. The company did not fire me or tell me my job was in jeopardy. I was schedule to work and close the store again on xx-xx-xxxx, and list other dates. Then, I was completely blindsided on xx-xx-xxxx when they terminated me for the original incident. I had no warning and I did my best for this company. I am hoping to reverse the original determination so I can receive my benefits."* You've got this. Keep us posted.
This is what I included in my appeal. I probably could have done a better job, but I was still kind of upset that I got disqualified from unemployment that I rushed to file the appeal so I rushed making the appeal. “I was not told that what I did was a fireable offense. After the incident, I was still employed for multiple days, possibly weeks afterward. I even closed and locked up the same store by myself multiple times after the incident. Also, I accidentally did not properly close the lockbox, not on purchase, so I don't see why it should be labeled as misconduct and not as a mistake or me not being able to meet the requirements of the job.”
What you wrote is not the same as what the other poster wrote... In your post you said you didn't know you left it unlocked until they told you but in your appeal you are basically admitting you did leave it unlocked? > I accidentally did not properly close the lockbox, Also, this? > After the incident, I was still employed for multiple days, possibly weeks afterward What does that even mean? You can't figure out how long you worked there? This is an unemployment appeal, almost like a real court room. You have to have dates and at least know how long you worked there.
I’m working on getting the official dates, and the point I was trying to make in my appeal is that I did not leave it unlocked on purpose. I only realized I accidentally left it unlocked when they told me the following day.
Just because you said you “accidentally did not properly secure” blah blah, does not equal admission of guilt. The other poster is wrong. They told you you left it unlocked that’s why you said you did. That’s definition gaslighting. You swore you locked up properly but they told you you didn’t but with no proof, which made you question your own truth and you were scared to to go against the authority figure even though they may have been incorrectly informed, we don’t know. That’s what I was trying to point out. If they don’t have proof, how could they successfully argue that with unemployment. I think you can win your appeal easily.
Sounds good! Just make sure you have dates, etc as best you can for the hearing. I think you have a very good chance!
Unfortunately, I have a terrible memory when it comes to dates, and I cannot recall the specific date that I was informed I forgot to lock up the store. The only possible way I can think of getting it is falling Mattress Firm and asking, but I don’t know if they would want to give me that date.
You need to go back through your phone, text, emails, notes, calendar and try your best to recreate a timeline. Without this, your case is weak. VERY important. Try to remember what days of the week and then even if you have to saw "on or about" or "the week of \_\_\_" Otherwise, they can claim this all happened within days or a week or so. That is NOT good.
You're going to want to dazzle the appeal hearing judge with your command of dates and facts.
YES. People don't understand that is a very important thing.
I mean, can they even prove you left it unlocked? That’s what I would bring up. If they didn’t write you up on the spot or have picture proof, I would deny their claim of misconduct. Just a thought 🤷🏻♀️
> I accidentally did not properly close the lockbox Op admitted to leaving it unlocked in his appeal so there is no need for the employer the prove it. Otherwise, I agree.
File the appeal. My ex had a similar situation and when it went before the judge/mediator (whichever), and his company explained his offense, the judge sat silent for a second, then said, "And?" Then he ruled in my husband's favor. Always appeal. The worst that happens is you lose.
Always fight and appeal. It's like a jobs "law" to fight it, so keep appealing. You'll get it. Just like how jobs try to say if you quit you can't get unemployment and if you're fired you can't get unemployment, when you can get unemployment for quitting AND if fired. Only if you did something super bad and provable, then you won't get unemployment.
appeal and fight for your money.
No.
Yes always appeal