T O P

Universal healthcare isn't feasible in the United States

Universal healthcare isn't feasible in the United States

pck3

So your saying Healthcare is inadequate then and it only works now since people can't afford to go...


ThatsWhatXiSaid

>you can't sustain a free public healthcare system for 331,000,000+ Americans and growing. Universal healthcare has been shown to work from populations below 100,000 to populations above 100 million. From Andorra to Japan; Iceland to Germany, with no issues in scaling. In fact the only correlation I've ever been able to find is a weak one with a minor decrease in cost per capita [as population increases](https://i.imgur.com/h6clEzr.jpg). So population doesn't seem to be correlated with cost nor [outcomes](https://i.imgur.com/1OatOtc.jpg). >Even then, there would be a massive waiting list The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors: * Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly. * Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win. * [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth. #Wait Times by Country (Rank) Country|See doctor/nurse same or next day without appointment|Response from doctor's office same or next day|Easy to get care on nights & weekends without going to ER|ER wait times under 4 hours|Surgery wait times under four months|Specialist wait times under 4 weeks|Average|Overall Rank :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--: **Australia**|3|3|3|7|6|6|4.7|4 **Canada**|10|11|9|11|10|10|10.2|11 **France**|7|1|7|1|1|5|3.7|2 **Germany**|9|2|6|2|2|2|3.8|3 **Netherlands**|1|5|1|3|5|4|3.2|1 **New Zealand**|2|6|2|4|8|7|4.8|5 **Norway**|11|9|4|9|9|11|8.8|9 **Sweden**|8|10|11|10|7|9|9.2|10 **Switzerland**|4|4|10|8|4|1|5.2|7 **U.K.**|5|8|8|5|11|8|7.5|8 **U.S.**|6|7|5|6|3|3|5.0|6 Source: [Commonwealth Fund Survey 2016](https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/cmwf2016-datatable-en-web.xlsx) You have no idea what you're talking about.


ChaosLordSamNiell

This sub is filled with high schoolers repeating their Fox news watching dad's drunken evening rants. The idea of even the most basic statistics is beyond them and is why you get down voted.


LunarIncense

Universal healthcare is public insurance. Insurance already works fine here and in other countries.


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_henjin

Yea that would never happen. Just like our school system, there's no opting out, If you want to send your kids to private school go right ahead but that doesn't exempt you from paying taxes for public schools


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DublinCheezie

You’re requesting a free-rider exemption. You know you will get emergency medicine regardless because of the law, so why pay for insurance until you need it, especially since Obamacare already made pre-existing conditions an issue insurers must cover. A healthier workforce is also more productive, benefiting the economy and investors as well as workers and consumers. The elimination of most if not all healthcare related bankruptcies also is good for individuals and the economy. Insurance works better, the larger the pool of insured. Single-payer is the largest pool possible because it covers everyone. You sound like you want the benefits of a better healthcare system without paying your share, even though it would save you money in the end. If you feel the need for special treatment, you can always purchase add-on coverage.


LunarIncense

Private insurance exists even in places like the UK. They exist because they can get you faster, often better care than the public insurance. Compare that to how insurance in the US is now, where the options for poor people are a large percent of their income and they're forced to pay it because of how astronomically expensive healthcare is. Many places even in the US already legally require you to have insurance, usually car insurance. If everyone had healthcare then the main justification for high healthcare costs (We have to make up for losses from people who can't pay) goes away.


unpopopinx

Car insurance isn’t comparable to other types. You’re legally required to have liability insurance, not comprehensive. That’s to protect others if you are at fault, not to protect yourself.


Vali32

Actually, BUPA, etc exists to let you queue-jump and give you better and more luxurious accomodations, etc. If you have anything serious, they unload you on the NHS because they give better quality care.


Confident_Ad6435

Just make it so healthcare is done on the state level, then it wouldn’t be such a large scale. Kind of like how the EU has free healthcare for each country


CheckYourCorners

That would just make it worse, the leverage of large contract deals is an essential part of making healthcare cheaper when it's universal


unpopopinx

That would be fine if people were allowed to opt out. The government forcibly representing everyone to “negotiate” isn’t just leverage, it’s coercion.


CheckYourCorners

People are allowed to opt out where I live. We have universal healthcare.


unpopopinx

You can opt out and not have to pay for it? Then yeah I’d be fine with that.


JustJ42

I mean capitalism determines who can get treatment too. How many Americans die every year because they have to ration out their LIFE SAVING insulin that is marked up to high heaven despite being relatively cheap to make and the inventor not wanting it to be priced the way it is? How many Americans take ubers instead of ambulances cause they’d rather not have to deal with the ambulance bill on top of the hospital bill? It’s ridiculous that American can’t be like other developed countries and have universal healthcare.


unpopopinx

It’s not ridiculous, we just don’t want it. I’m fine with keeping expenses as the responsibility of the person using the product/service. As for insulin, that’s the federal government fault. Anyone can make the previous versions of insulin and sell them for whatever they want. The problem is that the government has places excessive costs on small businesses to do that that don’t scale up. That means only an already successful business can afford to make it.


CheckYourCorners

Who is "we"? The majority of Americans want universal healthcare


unpopopinx

No they don’t. The majority want our healthcare system to be fixed.


CheckYourCorners

[The majority want to fix it with single payer healthcare.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/09/29/increasing-share-of-americans-favor-a-single-government-program-to-provide-health-care-coverage/%3famp=1) I worded my previous statement incorrectly by saying universal healthcare instead of single payer.


unpopopinx

Look at your source, only 36% want single payer.


Vali32

Actually, the thing with insulin is that its buy or die. Not much of a functioning market. Producers make more money raising price than they do competing, because sales are pretty much fixed.


gylz

Don't a lot of Americans buy their medicine up in Canada because it's cheaper to drive up here to buy medicine bc they can't afford the prices in the USA? How is that working at all?


ChaosLordSamNiell

They do that so much the government actually made it a Federal crime.


Drayko2001

I haven't heard of that happening


Torontomon2000

[https://newrepublic.com/article/162998/buying-drugs-canada-wont-solve-americas-obscene-healthcare-costs](https://newrepublic.com/article/162998/buying-drugs-canada-wont-solve-americas-obscene-healthcare-costs)


iamsheik989

Get ready to have the worst healthcare you’ve ever had . I’m in Canada. Health care is free but it does come at a cost. Health professionals are underpaid which means you get treated like shit almost everywhere you go to get treated. We have a lot of people who know alittle about everything and few people who specialize in anything. Leaving you waiting for up to 6 months to see a cardiologist, urologist, etc. Wait time at our hospitals and clinics is generally 3 hours+ just to wait longer to see an actual doctor. I am grateful that I don’t experience these things along with a 20,000 bill but I have had family travel to the states to get procedures done and they have said it’s a totally different experience.


ThatsWhatXiSaid

#[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm) |Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| 1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11 11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10


Drayko2001

And that's only in Canada. Imagine an extra 300 million people


ChaosLordSamNiell

That's already the level of quality we get in the US, so I'm for that exchange.


_henjin

Shouldn't be forced to pay for health care you don't want or need. It should be a competitive service that maintains quality assurance. Why should society be financially responsible for (made up person for the sake of argument) Darlene of Ohio, who's a 57 year old - 425lb tub of chain smoking alcoholic country crock ass? Someone who practices no sort of healthy lifestyle, and actively takes pride in her lack of self control. It's costly ya know .


hercmavzeb

How can you have a competition for a service with inelastic demand?


_henjin

I'm sorry, a what demand? I've never heard of that term used in this context


hercmavzeb

So competition works pretty well for managing the prices of luxuries, companies will try to get you to pay as much for their product as possible while not raising the price too high that you either refuse to buy their product or buy from someone else who’s providing it for cheaper. The problem with necessities is that their demand is inelastic, meaning that there’s basically no upper limit people will refuse to pay to get it. Healthcare is a perfect example, people will pay nigh infinite amounts of money to acquire it because the alternative in a lot of instances are lasting medical problems or death.


_henjin

Thanks for clarifying. I'm not seeing the issue here tho lol I think people should be allowed to pay for better services.


hercmavzeb

The problem is that healthcare companies can jack up prices to whatever they want basically since there’s no limit to what people are willing to pay to not die. If it were provided publicly then companies wouldn’t be able to basically hold our healthcare hostage because there would be an easily accessible alternative.


_henjin

You're disregarding the Monopoly here though. If these companies couldn't lobby for the market to be regulated in their favor by putting up licensing barriers to entry, then they wouldn't be very successful jacking up the cost of services and goods


hercmavzeb

I think you may have misunderstood my point. Free market economics don’t work to regulate the prices of necessities (goods with very high inelastic demand) either in practice or in theory because competition doesn’t lower those prices like it does with luxury goods.


_henjin

Quite possible that I misunderstood however, if a company wants to compete and they charge too high for a good or service and the vast majority of people do not like, or cannot afford it then they will fail


Vali32

Elasticity of demeand is a term refering to the customers ability to walk away if the price of something is too high. On something like insulin, you buy it or you die. The seller basically has a gun to the buyers head. Its not a functioning market. Studies show that every time a new competitor gets ready to enter the insulin market, other insulin producers, rather than compete on price, raise their price. This is the opposite of a working market. Sales are pretty fixed and the new competitor make more money from a slice of the inflated market than it would from dominating a realistically priced one, so competing on price is a pure loss. Healthcare has a very large number of factors known to distort markets, but this is one of the bigger ones. Areas where the customer can walk away, such as for example Lasik, can be observed to follow market principles to a much greter degree.


_henjin

Fair point. And thank you for properly defining the word for me. Your explanation seems more practical


knowutimem

this has got to be one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen on reddit.


Vali32

OP, your opinion is not unpopular, it is just wrong and lacking knowledge of the facts. >I don't think no matter how many tax payers there are, you can't sustain a free public healthcare system for 331,000,000+ Americans and growing. The average healthcare spending per capita in the developed world is 4 200$. The most expensive and generous UHC systemns, normally in western Europe, often in nations with higher cost of living that the USA, clock in at an average around 5 500 - 6 000$ per head. The US spends 11 000$, split between about 4 000$ insurance and out of pocket, and 7 000$ from taxes. Which is more than any UHC system costs. We have a pretty good grip on what UHC systems cost, it is less than the US current tax spending on healthcare. On population, there seems to be no observable effect between sizes running from Iceland and Luxembourg to Germany and Japan. Nor is there any theory indicating that there would be. In fact, basic economics of scale says it should grow more economical with increasing size. >Even then, there would be a massive waiting list and medical supplies would have to most likely be rationed and controlled by the government. People talk about a capitalist government being dystopian, but being in a society where the government can choose who should and shouldn't get treatment seems pretty dystopic to me. Well, the US should have chosen that setup then. Putting a huge insurance bureaucracy between the doctor and the patient probably wasn't the way to go if that was a worry. In all seriousness, have you noticed that this is something only Americans worry about? PTSD from having insurance companies between them and healthcare I expect. In other nations, it is between you and your doctor, and with extra safety valves. Have you noticed that the US is the nation with the harshest rationing by a very, very large margin?