Unlearning the internalized misogyny
By - diveonfire
Just noting: Monica Lewinsky was not a temp. She was an intern. Getting an intern job in the White House is a pretty big accomplishment while being a ‘temp’ is not as big an accomplishment. One more element of internalised misogyny is the undervaluing of women’s accomplishments.
And her surname ends in a ‘y.’
Another one for me? Thinking that when a 15 year old classmate was sexually abused by two of her older brother’s friends who were in their 20s at a party he threw at the home she lived in she was a ‘slut’ and not the victim of a sex crime.
I knew a girl in high school and a planned parenthood card fell out of her backpack, so we all assumed she had an abortion because she was a slut. It turns out she was raped and went in for testing to make sure she was okay. I felt so bad for assuming and judging her just for having the card.
In highschool I told a girl who had a pregnancy scare to "close her legs". I was kind of frustrated and thought she was an idiot for not using protection, but I should have said as much instead. Blaming AFAB people for their own sexuality is a cornerstone of misogyny.
Growing up it was like, all of the adults around expected penis-havers to put those penises in anything up to and including people's food. This was treated as comedy gold by many of them, if they thought about it at all. Meanwhile, vaginas became "dirty" "worn out" "too loose" if the person attached even thought about sex too much. Somehow it lead me to believe I needed to vocally performatively shun anything even vaguely sexually reminiscent, or else risk being labeled as some worthless pervert. I was a real pain in the ass as a teenager, so this lead to me becoming a bit of a stereotypical "anti-sex anti-everything SJW" type for a while.
I still have things to unlearn, but at least I outgrew that phase lol.
She also wasn’t sexually assaulted, she pursued Bill. Let’s not take away women’s sexual agency.
And the misogyny still extends to Hillary and Chelsea - when the media, once a year, drags up the affair. To this day, people still blame Hillary for the affair, or act like the affair was the only reason she had a job in politics.
It was the media who hurt Monica the first time, and it’s the media continuing to use her affair to cause Hillary and Chelsea pain.
But just to be clear—even if she did pursue Bill, it doesn’t mean it was okay for him to have sex with her.
The vocabulary that most people use to describe these dynamics is woefully inadequate.
Have you seen her ted talk?
>she refuses to admit the pain she caused two other women
Wow. She had no responsibility to them, Bill did. It was on him.
Sorry you don't like the fact that power dynamics exist in the workplace.
> When she takes any sort of responsibility for what she did, I’ll listen to her carefully.
This has a really strong "when she meets my expectations, I'll admit to her humanity" energy to it.
You could learn from the woman she is now. She's grown into an intelligent, thoughtful, caring human being who grasps her responsibility for what happened. Which you'd know if you actually accepted her humanity and listened to what she has to say.
The President of the United States should not be sleeping with the interns.
Just like the CEO of the corporation shouldn’t sleep with the new hires, the colonel commanding the unit shouldn’t sleep with the private, the office director shouldn’t sleep with the temp secretary, and the English teacher shouldn’t sleep with the 18yo high school seniors.
Even if it is a consenting relationship, it’s an abuse of authority and a violation of the trust put in you as a leader. If it’s so important for you to have sex with a subordinate, find a way to remove yourself from authority over them and their colleagues.
I didn’t call him a rapist or accuse him of sexual assault or call Lewinsky a “victim.” We don’t need to resort to language of criminality and trauma to conclude that someone’s behavior is grossly unprofessional and unethical.
If I could give you gold for this would. There’s a reason if in the military an office is fraternizing with an enlisted that it’s the higher ranking person who looses their job.
The original post calls it sexual assault.
Totally agree that it was unprofessional and unethical on Bill’s part. But it’s not sexual assault.
I just think there is a line.
I mean he's also a rapist.
That is true, I believe he was accused of sexual assault by at least two other women? I do believe Monica was consenting, but that doesn't mean it wasn't still a gross abuse of power by a man who doesn't seem to understand consent anyway.
> infantilizing a white woman for doing something she wanted to do. When we don’t give 10 year old people of color a childhood.
These are two separate issues. Acknowledging that middle-aged people inherently have power over people in their early 20s is not infantilizing. Treating POC kids as older than they are is a separate issue, and the solution isn’t to do the same to white people, it’s to STOP doing it to anyone.
Yup, came here to say this. It is a bit of a sad story actually, she thought she was in love and he loved her back, she was head over heels for him and wanted so bad to make love to him. When she would give him blow jobs he would stop her before he ejaculated because he thought somehow that it wasn't adultery if he didn't orgasm, she insisted because she wanted to make him feel good, he broke it off after he the first time he came. The You're Wrong About podcast does a great episode on it.
I did not want to know this.
>When she would give him blow jobs he would stop her before he ejaculated because he thought somehow that it wasn't adultery if he didn't orgasm, she insisted because she wanted to make him feel good, he broke it off after he the first time he came.
This entire part here is unnecessary and kinda gross.
It reminds me of his statement about smoking pot - "I didn't inhale".
Seems like he did a lot of negotiating with himself to get around lines he knew he shouldn't cross. (not that pot is or should've been a big deal)
I know, you're right it was TMI, sorry about that. I was trying to just demonstrate how she was the pursuer in the relationship and I got a little carried away with the story.
New term for me - what does peruse mean in this context?
It meant my typing is terrible on a phone, and I meant pursue.
Ha! Both comments above used peruse, so I thought it was a thing. No worries, just trying to keep up :)
Well, it is an actual word.
Yes, I thought it was “peruse” used in a context specific way that I hadn’t heard. Maybe like she kinda was checking him out (not actively pursuing) but possibly receptive to increased pressure. I don’t know, like I said - just trying to keep up.
What does the ‘y’ thing mean?
The name, Lewinsky, does not end with an i, it ends with a y. This is a common misspelling of her name.
I feel like it was done, intentionally or not, as a nod to the Candi/Brandi spelling variation. I've seen sitcoms allude to "spelled with an I" girls are wilder than traditionally spelled names. Seems like it's trying to portray her in that light, I've frequently seen it spelled with an i.
It's a hint of the classic "sexual assault victims aren't victims *because* they're sexual" mud smearing campaign.
…but it’s her last name? And -ski is a common ending, probably more common than -sky. It was a simple spelling error.
*Image Transcription: Tumblr Replies*
# I want to apologize to
\- Britney for making fun of her when she had her breakdown
\- Monica Lewinski for judging her when she was a 22year old temp sexually assaulted by the most powerful man in the world
\- Ke$ha for ever thinking she was trashy when all she wanted to do was make party music
\- Kristen Stewart for thinking she was dumb when she's actually one of the coolest people ever
\- Meghan Fox for ever thinking she was just a slut when actually she was an actress being harassed by her employer.
\- Hating all the women who made a career out of having a hot body. Being is shape is hard, beauty is a weapon and auto promotion is hard work.
\- All the Mary-Sues, who exist because young girls everywhere want to be part of a story they love so much
\- All the female characters I ever snobbed because they got in the way of my ship.
\- Hating the color pink during my teenage years, when it's actually a lovely color and what I resented was society's pressure to perform femininity.
This is what sexism does. The media runs a smear campaign against women. And when we were younger we knew no better and trusted them. Now we know better.
\#I can't even begin to explain how important this is
^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
Good human. 😊
no u <3
Here's your good human reward 🍔🍕🧡
I'm sorry for shitting on Britney when I was a cringy wannabe edgelord as a kid. I'm sorry for hating on Megan Fox too.
Pink ain't my color at all but I'm no longer shitting on people who love it.
I don’t like it either but my best friends favorite color is bright hot pink so I do give her a little bit of a hard time about it but I would never shame her, or anyone else for that matter, for liking bright hot pink. You do you boo.
Careful there. Even among best friends the line between "giving her a little bit of a hard time" and "shaming her" can be incredibly hard to walk or even know where it is.
Source: someone who laughed along to camouflage actually feeling hurt, who nobody thought would do this.
Listen, I know you’re trying to be helpful. But I’ve known her for a very long time and she definitely has no problem telling me when I’m doing something shitty, and I have no problems taking her feelings into account and changing my behavior.
And our relationship is just like that. We are both ICU nurses and both have dark senses of humor and we use that kind of humor to show love to each other.
Not everyone has a lovey, kissy, everything is rainbows and hearts friendship.
You know her, so I believe you. And I do get it, I, too, have relationships with people I love where we are clear and open that love doesn't mean "everything is rainbows and hearts."
I just wanted to warn the other thousands of people reading this thread to be careful about that, because people used to think I'd definitely tell them if I was upset with them, and I didn't. Hell, I'm still working with triggers around this.
I'd like to add being complicit in the slut-shaming in grade school. I was raised catholic so that had some influence, but also just the general attitude of the Madonna/Whore complex. And I personally experienced peer pressure and scorn for being a prude at the time (because I wouldn't put out). Every girl was going to be ridiculed for something no matter what, and I'm glad I grew out of it.
When I was in middle school, I was very misogynistic and hateful towards the pretty, popular girls. To me, they were just stuck-up sluts and I was the Nice Girl/Not Like The Other Girls who should’ve been getting the guy.
TDLR; Basically, I fucking sucked and my way of thinking was wrong and gross.
Some very early T swift vybes. Who honestly, I still think is a snake. Music well produced though.
Why do you think she’s a snake? I’d honestly like to hear an opinion as I’ve seen it said elsewhere and I know nothing about her as I don’t care for her music.
A lot of different messaging from other women performers about working with and around her. From that the very white and manufactured, exploitative girl power while not actually practicing uplifting the women around her. Her being a very manufactured and calculated public personality in general versus more human feeling celebs like Anna Kendrick or Emma Stone. I think as a singer she has even more freedom than actresses in that department too.
Idk she is corporate girlboss white "feminism" while actively pushing down the women around her instead of lifting them up.
I know very little about her past common knowledge, but it does bring up the question about if she obligated to use her star power to support causes. Also, all celebrity personalities are manufactured, even the ones that seen genuine.
I'd like to add I apologise to Lorena Gallo (previous name Lorena Bobbitt) for laughing at all the awful, misogynistic jokes about her being a crazy B - There were lots and lots of jokes about it, for months. In reality she was horribly, repeatedly raped and abused by an evil, brutally violent man.
The media were so quick to judge her and use her story for laughs or proof that women be crazy, men lost their damn minds over her hurting her husband's pp (like it was worse than death), when what she deserved was sympathy, justice and protection. Then she had to talk about all the abuse she suffered, in detail in a *televised court case*. In some ways, that case being televised was a bit of a wake-up call for the media and certainly for many women at the time.
She's a strong, warm, incredible woman who deserves all the happiness in the world.
I watched the documentary about her this year and highly recommend it.
I watched it, too. The part where the local Latino (I apologise of that word isn't ok-not sure as I'm not American) community turned up outside the courthouse to support her was a beautiful point in a heart-wrenching story.
\> (I apologise of that word isn't ok-not sure as I'm not American)
It's ok, Latino is preferred overwhelmingly within the Latino community, if that's what youre asking!
Is Latin okay? I’ve started using it when I’m talking to white people who I think might get bent out of shape over Latino
"Latine" is more acceptable than "Latinx" if you must. Latin american would work, too, even if a bit wordy. \*Like the other person said, Latin isn't a descriptor of Latino people
If you can, though, telling people willing to listen that "latino" is a gender neutral term would be very helpful, lol. Latinx was imposed on us and we really don't like that.
e/ btw I understand Latinx wasnt explicitly stated, but I felt like opening with that because it's still kinda important for anyone who looks through here
All I think of when I hear "Latin" is the ancestral language that is the origin of modern Romance languages, mostly spread by Romans. So I think that might cause some confusion, unless you maybe specify you're talking about Latin America
What’s the name of the documentary if you don’t mind taking time to share it? I want to look it up.
Lorena is the name. I think it was a docuseries. It's on Amazon Prime.
Huh. I've never known anything about her story beyond her primary sin, and nothing about him, but I still somehow always interpreted jokes as a bit of "he had it coming" and shitty men should check their behavior in case women used her for inspiration.
I was also a teenager before I realized that was a true story though, so.
There's a really good documentary about her called Lorena. It's an eye-opener. I am only two years younger than her, so I remember it well.
id like to apologize to dolly parton. the media and even my own mom taught me to snub her off because of her appearance. she is a beautiful, selfless, intelligent, and compassionate woman who supports the LGBTQ+ and black community. i fucking lover her, shes a certified girl boss
Don’t forget about her fantastic, FREE program to help young children get into reading! Not to mention all the jobs she’s brought to her neck of the woods in Tennessee. One of her more famous quotes is, “It costs a lot of money to look this cheap!” She’s seriously wonderful!
🥺🥺🥺 the more I learn about her, the more I love her omg
I often think about how it would have felt for me to know what happened right before Britney shaved her hair.
Because reading about it now, I'm furious at how it was framed. I had so many sensory issues, and i never knew that I could say no.
I think I would have been inspired by her if I'd gotten the real story.
Wait what had happened?
Apparently she was asking her stylists or whatever to stop touching her, stop touching her hair. But because she was going out to meet the press, they were insisting on fixing or styling it.
She did it so they would stop
That was pretty fucking metal of her. Poor Brittany :(
I know! Knowing everything I know about Britney now makes me respect the hell out of her. I hope she pulls through and gets to live the life she wants.
Can we add Paris Hilton to the list? She was acting like a normal teenager so her parents had some creep “scared straight” school kidnap her from her bed which she still has PTSD nightmare about and at some point that same school stripped her naked and put her in solitary confinement for days. So she developed the “cutesy dumb girl” persona as a coping mechanism.
Holy shit is that true? How on earth have I never heard of that before?
Yeah it is, she's been very active in the fight to get programs like that eliminated.
She has a YouTube documentary about it or you can look up “Paris Hilton boarding school abuse” and an article should pop up about it.
As another user pointed out she has other issues that should be critiqued (hateful comments made about minorities) but she shouldn’t be hated for the main things she is known for (a hyper feminine caricature).
Exactly who I thought of too. In her documentary, you can hear her revert to her “dumb girl” high pitched voice when she feels defensive or worried/upset about something. It’s sad. Definitely a coping mechanism.
Paris Hilton is still not a [great person though](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indy100.com/news/paris-hilton-documentary-homophobic-racist-remarks-n-word-9713666%3famp). Horrific what she went through, but let's not sweep her [racism, classism, and homophobia under the rug](https://jezebel.com/the-revision-of-paris-hiltons-story-is-missing-somethin-1845093418).
I'm with you 100%, and Paris Hilton is not the only one on the list w/ a history of shitty behavior.
The message as I interpret it isn't so much "I believe these women are role models", and more "I regret the reasons I looked down these women as a young person, because those reasons were tied up in internalized misogyny."
Oh, I definitely agree with that. Women often have to live up to impossible standards, and any mistake they make is absolutely looked at with a fine tooth comb and criticized; I just think there are totally valid reasons to look down on Paris Hilton separate from her experiences at that camp, and I feel as though people now overlook her legitimately troublesome past actions in order to champion her as an entirely innocent victim.
I also have a problem with the ignoring of her past actions and words, because I think she gets a lot of leeway that a woman of colour wouldn't get, because she's rich, pretty, and white.
Agreed: don't look down on them for the reasons that came from internalized misogyny, look down on them for the actual bad shit they did/said. That at least honors their agency as people.
Jeezus I did not know all this. Especially the racism. I’m Mexican American and she called us dirty Mexicans?! And then she is dancing and proudly and brazenly says “We look like n-word”.
I wish the backlash would come out.
But clearly no one cares enough I guess...
I always wondered how she made friends with a former mean girl like Nicole Richie. It all makes sense now. She was mean too.
What I don’t understand is how Nicole didnt care that she was racist. Or did she not know? Idk...
Rich people. There’s a whole weird culture with rich people. They just say shit without understanding what any of it means. It’s crazy how disconnected that whole segment of society is.
She went to and escaped from MANY of those campus, not just one.
What the fuck.
and Lindsay Lohan.
That last one hit pretty hard. It’s sad that some young girls will go out of their way to deny their femininity because society tells them that it’s such a bad thing.
And because showing your femininity would be detrimental for one sometimes.
I remember not wearing dresses or pink cause I “hated” them. But now that I allow myself to enjoy them, I realize that I didn’t want the undesired attention of men of all ages that I would get as a teenager if I dressed more feminine. I also hated that I had to shave my legs every time cause god forbid I would show that I had body hair.
You make a very good point, I forgot about that. That was why I downplayed my femininity growing up. I didn’t want to be noticed at all.
I was afraid that I'd be laughed at for even thinking I could ever look pretty if I looked like I was trying. My clothes screamed "I'm not TRYING to look pretty! You can't make fun of me for not looking pretty because I'm obviously doing it on purpose!"
Oh my gosh this exactly. These were my thoughts as a teenager. And man is it hard to get away from that thinking
I know grown women who refuse to associate with the color pink because it's girly. The internalized misogyny is so so sad. Don't like it because it makes you look pale or piglety or something? Fair. Don't like it because you're afraid to be associated with femininity? Yikes.
At one job, they kept pink PPE as a form of "punishment" for those who would forget their PPE and need replacements. I can paint my tools pink because most people won't touch them then. It's wild that a color has so much impact, all because people hate women so much.
Pink’s very existence in pop culture and media is so utterly bizarre to me. No other color has the same amount of gender and stereotype about it (perhaps camo on non military guys, but that isn’t even one color).
I didn’t like pink as a child. I wanted science experiment kits, books, fluffy socks, and candy. Anyone who gave me something pink clearly didn’t know what I was about, they were just a stranger giving a girl a “girl gift.” Usually it was makeup or nail polish or sometimes a pink-themed kitchen play set or a pink frilly dress.
As an adult I dislike it less, but I still see pink as a way to pigeonhole me into “desired” gender roles. Rarely do I purchase something or get a gift that is pink without a misogynistic feminine ideal at play.
This doesn’t even get into the pink tax, where feminine-coded items are more expensive. Haircuts, shampoo, razors, toothbrushes, even sweatshirts. It’s ridiculous! This gets 1000x worse with MLMs, they really try to market the “boss lady” theme while still preying on women. My dad even bought me a tool set (at my request) and he bought it in *pink*, so it was more expensive while having less useful tools. I’m done with that shit.
It’s incredibly telling that pink PPE is a “punishment” color and in that case I would wear it proudly every day. Disliking pink is not necessarily internalized misogyny, it can very much be an anger how this color has been used against you to keep you “feminine.”
I agree, I think there is still WAY to much misogyny loaded into the colour pink for me to ever feel okay with it, I can’t see myself ever choosing to wear pink but I’m very glad that those who want to can and do and I no longer feel judgment toward others for doing so that I did in my teenage years. Pink will always represent the shoe box of stereotypical femininity that was pushed on me and that I still don’t feel comfortable with. But I also recognize that I am still working on my issues with many traditionally feminine things.
I feel like I'm still recovering from this one lol
Same. I'm 40. It hit me this year that I had been denying that part of myself since forever and basically trying to earn value by doing largely masculine things and looks. I feel like I have no model of what this part of myself is or should be. Just trying to value Her.
Man @ the colour pink thing.
I recently bought myself a hot pink silk scrunchie and it truly felt like I was “taking the colour back” after hating it for years… all because it was associated with being female/forced on me as a kiddo.
It's a catch 22. You are told you are too feminine or you're told you're not feminine enough, it's a system deliberately made so we cannot win and to turn us against each other.
Janet Jackson should be on this list too. Her career suffered so much after Justin Timberlake ripped open her top in their performance. Meanwhile, Justin's career continued its upward mobility without any setbacks at all. She was punished while he was rewarded.
He also destroyed Britney Spears' career. I don't like him.
I'd like to apologise to Celine Dion, who I dismissed as 'boring women music' when I was a girl, because I have now at age 37 discovered how much she slaps, specifically the song 'It's All Coming Back to me Now.' What a banger.
That whole album is amazing!
There's a lot of hatred for Celine that I really don't understand. She excelled with the 90's power ballads that were played ad nauseum but her work is so prolific and her skills are immeasurable. She deserves all the success she's worked hard for. I've been a fan since *Falling Into You* came out.
Hear, hear! Let’s support each other – it’s patriarchy that’s the enemy, not other women!
By the way – since coming out as non-binary (I’m AFAB) I’ve become totally obsessed with pink! It’s so funny, I used to hate it but somehow I now feel free to enjoy it. I have 2 pink suits and a pink leather jacket that are some of my favorite pieces.
I’m not non binary, but have dropped the hate of pink in my mid twenties; once I understood that I just didn’t like the color *because* it was shoved down my throat my whole life. “You’re a girl, so you *must* like the color, because blue is for boys.” Such bullshit.
Pink is just pink. It’s just a color.
The pink leather jacket sounds awesome! Do you happen to have a link to where you bought it?
Mine is from allsaints, they have great leather and great sales. It was a good five years ago but I think they’ve sold similar colors in recent seasons.
Yes! I want to know more about this pink leather jacket and where I might get one!
Pink gets so much hate. My husband used to outwardly cringe when I talked about wanting pink this or that in the house. Once I actually incorporated pink into the interior his reaction swiftly changed to how nice of a color it really is.
Yes! Coming out as nonbinary made me more comfortable with those traditionally feminine things. Cause now it feels like an active choice I make. I'm AFAB and just always felt the pressure, ya know? Wear makeup and dresses, keep your hair long, wear pastel colors and floral prints! Be a laaaady. So due to my petulance and disinterest in being told who I am, I didn't do those things.
Now I do them all the time! Cause they are beautiful and fun and for anyone and everyone to enjoy! The best feeling is binding your chest and putting on a dress! It's like... visceral for me.
Same here! I have short hair, don't wear makeup, pretty much always hated feminine things. Since coming out as nb I don't feel as awkward when I occaisonally wear dresses now! I enjoy it! I'm making an active choice rather than being forced to perform. I really want to get a binder but it's not really feasible for the moment, putting one on and getting into a dress sounds amazing!
Yep Yep Yep! I came out as nonbinary at like 19 and since then I've (26 now) have gotten into more pink stuff, enjoying myself with wearing dresses and skirts and getting into makeup and stuff. I really enjoy engaging in traditionally feminine things, but I just *haaaaate* being referred to as she/her or anything feminine unless it's my partner or other queer/lgbtq+ people calling me girl.
Joining the party wagon of fellow afab nb's who learned to embrace pink once it felt like something I got to _choose_
I'm so happy to see you all here ❤️
Don’t forget Paris Hilton.
So sad. She is definitely one I laughed at as a kid and I did not know anything about her teen years
Same. Definitely hope she’s doing better now.
I heard Monica Lewinsky on a podcast(she was great) and revisited some attitudes towards her that I haven’t thought about in over 20 years. She became a punchline and we all just joined in(me because I was young and you learn from the culture and people around you). Thinking about it with a more modern and mature attitude was pretty eye opening. Similar situation with Paris Hilton.
Edit: made the writing more gooder.
Wasn't even alive during the Lewinsky thing, but my dad filled me in, and he was mostly disgusted by Bill. I remember my dad's words "He shouldn't have done it. I don't know if she pursued him or the opposite or whatever, but they both should have blocked each other's advances."
Have you read the article written by Misha Collins about Monica? Having only read it recently, it makes total sense; yet, it seems like it was a pretty bold stance to take 23 years ago.
[Lewinsky wasn't the only infatuated intern](https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1998-01-29-1998029053-story.html)
I want to add Tonya Harding, who was abused and not as culpable in Nancy Kerrigan’s attack as the media made her out to be.
Martha Stewart, who was imprisoned for insider trading for such a comparatively small amount of money and was ridiculed for all the homemaking arts she’s so skilled in promoting; while so many men who are doing such higher levels of insider trading walk free.
And Anita Hill, who bravely told the truth of Thomas’ sexual harassment only to be ignored and derided for years while Thomas got put on the Supreme Court, where manages to be both useless and damaging.
Honestly the thing that puts me off Kristen Stewart is her stances on some political things in Hollywood. Like back when the pay gap between Hollywood men and women was a hot topic, her response was basically just “I don’t see the point in talking about it, it’s boring and stop complaining.”
Not to mention she chose to still work with Woody Allen even after allegations about him came out, and her defense was “well I don’t really know the people involved.”
I also don’t enjoy her acting but that’s a personal taste thing
There are certainly distasteful people out there but the point of this list is not to apologize to good people but to apologize for internalized misogyny.
For example, even tho I think Paris Hilton is a racist and a generally shitty person. I am still going to apologize for calling her a slut when I watched her on TV as a kid. Bc no matter what that was a fucked up thing on my part.
No you’re definitely right, my bad. I responded with blinders on. As an abuse survivor the above was just a knee-jerk reaction to hearing a Woody Allen apologist called “the coolest person ever”.
Seriously, bad example. There are very valid reasons to dislike Kristen Stewart.
I mean, I get the point of the post, but I don't have to like all women because they're women.
You're absolutely right! But the point of the post was don't dislike them because of the misogynist reasons (dislike them for the real damaging shit they actually did/said, which at least respects their agency as humans).
And didn't she cheat on Pattinson with a married man as well? It's really shitty. I wouldn't exactly praise her.
Quick reminder that Kesha was being assaulted and harassed by producer Dr. Luke during all those party records, and when she finally got to make an album without him, she put out one of the best, most emotional albums of 2017.
I personally refuse to listen to Kim Petras and Doja Cat, as they seem to be incapable of making music without Dr. Luke (who’s renamed himself “Made In China”). I’ll probably skip the Saweetie album for the same reason.
I stopped listening to Kim for that exact reason, but it looks like I’m not listening to Doja anymore too.
I'd also like to remind people that Kesha admitted to forcing male fans to take off their pants so that she could take a picture of them pantsless if they wanted to talk to her alone. I feel for what she's gone through, but unfortunately she's doing some fucked up shit of her own and she didn't apologize for it, she thought it was hilarious
She wrote about it in her memoir and talked about it in this interview https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/kesha-interview-album-mother-songwriter-235740/
[Definitely real](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/kesha-interview-album-mother-songwriter-235740/), 7th paragraph
Yet you can google, articles accusing rolling stone of lying so I take their article with a grain of salt.
Also they lie about people SAing people. So wow, yet you believe whatever they write.
You’re free to find and provide counter evidence, but it’s a quote, and supposedly in her memoir, so I doubt you’ll find much to disprove this.
I totally forgot about that. Super shitty.
Shame you’re getting downvoted for speaking the truth.
I want to apologize for falling into anti-feminism for a year or so as a baby atheist and egg. The people were good at seeming rational and it took me too long to realize the kind of bullshit they filled my head with
What you said lmao it took a video on shaving to snap me out of it. The comments were disgusting talking about what THEY (male viewers) thought was acceptable for women’s bodies when it’s none of their business what a woman does with her body.
One thing I'd really like to add, genuinely:
I'd like to apologize to people like you for judging you for being so celeb obsessed, vapid, and horribly judgemental to cover your "envy".
Society has indeed waged a war against women in all forms, on all levels. And, now, I realize that seeing people trapped in the toxic loop of hate is a sad product of how disgusting our society and culture has trained us to treat even the smallest amount of deviation from an outdated, negative, backwards gender role/expectation, and then treat those that follow that role shitty, too.
We're all learning how crappy society has treated us all - slowly, but we're all finding the way to love, wisdom, and enlightenment on a large scale (with lots of growing pains). Most will be dragged, kicking and screaming, but others will lead the way through their pain and overcome personal horrors, carrying their own heavy bags along with all of us on their backs.
One thing is for sure: we treat people better now than before and the world is a better place for it.
I support all women now regardless of what they wear, how old they are, how much they weigh, what life choices they have made. Men will never support us. They’ve done their best to oppress us and pit us against each other as if we are all enemies competing for MEN.
So if you feel the urge to criticize another women for her life choices or what she is wearing, know that you’re doing just what men trained us to do to better serve MEN.
Only one I disagree with is the Mary Sues in fiction. IMO there are too many “perfect” girls in YA fiction. Girls need to see female characters who have flaws and struggle with things so they don’t feel like they have to be perfect all the time to meet society’s expectations.
I think they meant the kind that girls write into their fanfiction, at least that's what I interpreted that as
Oh that’s totally fine then
It could also be the only girl in the story in some stories, and any girl is better than none
I agree characters need flaws and realism is important and all that, but I also think we overdo the whole "she needs to be a role model for girls" thing. She doesn't. She's a fictional character. Guy characters never get that treatment. Nobody watches Fast and Furious and is like "think of the boys!". Iron Man is billionaire skeeze but HE'S IRON MAN (I like iron man just fine, I'm just sayin...if you're a such a good guy give all your money to starving children and shit. THAT'S a hero ).
And a shit ton of male characters fit the whole "Mary-Sue Perfection Incarnate" trope, but apparently that's okay, but a woman doing it? No ma'am, no how. Bad writing, must destroy. Without getting into niche books and comics, based on the movies alone, Luke Skywalker is pretty unbelievably perfect. He's the most powerful Jedi in history with essentially no formal training. Cause his line is CHOSEN. But when Ray (Rey? Rei? I dunno, those movies were garbage for other reasons) does the same thing she's TOO PERFECT. She struggles with the same light side dark side crisis, she's trying to save her friends...it's basically the same exact story as the original trilogy but with a female lead (and crappy writing...).
I...have gone off on a Star Wars tangent again. Dammit, I always do that shit.
Your Star Wars tangent was very much appreciated by this commenter. Thank you.
Possibly hot take: I'd argue that (at the very least) Rey probably surpassed Anakin & Luke in the writing department in their trilogies. Luke was limited by the wonky writing in 70s sci-fi and Anakin is...just a mess of bad execution.
Ep7-9 had a lot of consistency issues, sure, but I feel like Rey actually had a pretty solidly realized character arc that both echos and contrasts the other Skywalkers in their trilogies. While Anakin & Luke pretty much jump at "the call," Rey is still hugely in a state of denial about her parents and her own worth as a jedi. She spends the trilogy leaping between parental surrogates, and nearly ends up charging down a self-destructive path once she does learn of a place she *could* belong to, but *really* doesn't want to. There's certainly bits of her story that I could do without, but at least she behaves in a fairly consistent believable way (IMHO).
I dunno, I still feel like there's a lot with Rey that actually elevated SW writing in the movies, and it makes me sad that a lot of the fandom calls her "boring" or a Mary Sue, especially when those same people fawn over other SW protagonists who share similar writing problems to Rey.
Man, I just wrote a huge commentary responding to this and accidentally deleted it cause mobile typing blows ass.
Anyway, long story short - I hear you, and that's fair. You're totally allowed to like Rey and the movies. Personally I think Luke and Anakin have better stories but that's because I'm still not sure what Reys was. Like...I know it at face value, but...why? The pacing, the dropped plot lines, the script in general...it just ruined everyone for me. And I will never forgive what they did to Luke...he deserved better. BUT, Rey as a character isn't responsible for these problems. Her character was fine, the execution is what kills me. And like I said, if she's a mary sue so is luke. And maybe of we get more literature with Rey in it she'll start to make more sense to me. I just feel like I never really knew who she was.
Not Anakin though. His plot is very twisted and intriguing to me. Talk about flawed character. His story is one of my favorites in the SW universe (him and Darth Revan, yo). But I've read the books and comics and shit, so that definitely colors my opinions on this whole situation.
Now that you mention Star Wars, I believe this "Mary-Sue Perfection Incarnate" phenomenon is why many people hated the Prequels (More specifically the Midi-chlorians and the Prophesy of the Chosen One).
Even if Luke said "The Force is strong in my family" on Episode VI, many fans left under the impression that anyone who believed in the Force could be a Jedi, and could fantasize with themselves being a Badass Force Master.
Then the prequels came, and that fantasy was challenged. The Midi-chlorians were introduced and criticized supposedly for trying to give a Scientific Explanation to the Force that they said should be "Spiritual". A reviewer once pointed out that it was not because of that that they were problematic, but because they Supported the "divine Right of Kings". The Midi-chlorians stablished that only a few were the chosen to master the force, and that they to family bloodlines.
This is why Starkiller, even if he is probably way to overpowered and can greatly surpass the Chosen One and the Emperor themselves is more popular than Rey, who also did that. He is a Video Game Protagonist. It is not he who is whipping the floor with Darth Vader, Palpatine and Legions of Stormtroopers, YOU ARE.
Many want to fantasise with themselves as the chosen one, but unlike his son, Anakin Skywalker is not really a character the audience can project themselves as a fantasy.
I interpreted it as characters who a lot of men and boys will cry is a Mary Sue (i.e. Rey from Star Wars, Bella Swan from the Twilight series, Megan Fox in the Transformers series (apparently).), but then will ignore the fact that their favourite characters are all Gary Stu's (I mean come on, Luke Skywalker -- Luke S. Lucas, George Lucas. COME ON!).
I do understand that there need to be female characters with flaws and struggles, but I don't think there are any perfect examples of Mary Sue's unless it's in fanfiction. Sure some might have similarities (like Rey, or Bella), but they're not outright Mary Sue's.
Kristen Stewart got dragged for being a bland actress when in reality she was playing the blandest character ever and did it exceedingly well.
I remember hating her and like this text post I feel so bad because now I'm like "she's fantastic" and obviously Bella is a very boring character, so she did the job.
Don't feel bad, we were supposed to think that. I certainly did.
As an aside, is Megan Fox a Marie Sue? I've only seen the first two Transformer movies, but I got the impression she was more written the other way around. Not an author insert, but a male author *fantasy*.
I think she could be a Mary Sue since her character's name, Michaela Barnes, is kind of similar to Michael Bay. I kid but, in all seriousness, Michaela is the best character in the first two Transformers IMO. The sad thing is that a lot of her characterization is completely obscured by how the camera frames her as merely eye candy/ fan service. She is the only lead with a connection to cars, mechanical know-how, and a compelling back story (helping her dad and getting a criminal record). Sam just inherited some random glasses (IIRC) and is a total buffoon while she is brave, kind, and actually risking something by helping the autobots. She isn't a "cool girl" in the Gone Girl sense either. She does have traditionally masculine hobbies and is absolutely gorgeous but she doesn't play it "cool". She wants Sam to commit to her, admit he loves her, and isn't afraid to be seen as as emotional in the 2nd film. It's a damn shame that her arc was obliterated because Bay only wanted to showcase Fox's beauty and ignore the interesting story she could have had.
It may not be the most original, but I know I would enjoy a movie about a total bombshell who is highly skilled in her area of expertise and who is tired of being underestimated by everyone around her because of her looks. When aliens need help protecting Earth, she uses her skillset, bravery, and heart to aid them in any way she can.
The text of that movie and the camera work are different things. She's written as a super capable and resourceful teen girl that's mad that the world discounts because she's hot. But then the camera treats her as eye candy. Lindsay Ellis did a whole series on those movies, it was pretty good.
Honestly, I looked up Mary Sue examples and saw she was one so I just slapped her in. But it could be a combination of Mary Sue and Male Fantasy.
Eh, there's plenty of Mary Sue mediocre trash for boys. I have more issues with the amount of edgy antihero Mary Sue stuff for boys.
Let there be escapist trash for all genders. At least women Mary Sue characters arent idolizing edgy edgelords. Looking at you Dresden files.
I agree with this but not about fiction. In role playing, Mary Sues ruin the game for everyone else. Do whatever you want in fanfic but if you’re playing with other people you need to take your wish fulfillment elsewhere.
this is important. the "i'm not like the other girls" trope is still very much a thing everywhere
I always thought it was wrong that the paparazzi were relentlessly putting Britney’s entire life on display when it seemed like all she really wanted was to lead a normal fall life after having her kids.
But— I used to hate on Megan Fox as well. I mean, I *saw* the duality of how the media portrayed her as the ultimate example of a “sexy female body”. Men worship her, *every* woman should want to *be* her. Look like her. Yet, in all her interviews they did everything they could make her seem like a dumb, brainless ~~person~~ girl. Like “silly woman, doesn’t she know we only value her body and never her thoughts/beliefs/ opinions?” I felt like every example of a teen girl’s idol during the 2000s decade was a hyper-sexualized young woman.
Ive always had an issue with Mary-Sues as a concept that people criticize when characters like Superman are just allowed to be. There’s plenty of male characters that are the best at what they do just because that’s how they’re written. Male characters can be overpowered for the sake of being overpowered but female characters need 5 page essays on how they gained each and every skill and at least 2 bad qualities for every good quality. Oh but they’re going to be judged harshly for all of their bad qualities even though they were going to be judged for not having them.
Taylor Swift is sorely missing from this list.
Everyone should watch the Paris Hilton documentary. I feel terrible for jokes I probably made about her as a teen.
In a way I think Paris Hilton chose that media identity, knowing it would come with jokes. But that it was her choice to do so. She took the small amount of character the media had from before she went to torture camps and chose to build a media empire around that brand.
I think a lot of her life choices are made with trauma as a backdrop (whole shit when she talks about her dating life). The sex tape thing is extremely fucked up. But out of all the women we're talking about I think she is arguably the one who most chose this path and decided to make it into her brand and profit from it. I think that part of building a brand like that, especially with the character she played, is the ridicule that comes with. Yes, women get way more vitriol than men. She chose to bottle and sell what she had and I don't think that the average person who make jokes at her expense is something that has ever bothered her.
I think she is tough as nails and built an empire around the character. Based on the documentary I think she has a lot of trauma but I don't think any of it is from the average jo schmoes laughing at the character she played.
She definitely played into it and to her favor, and she's made a fortune out of it. Someone who was born into great wealth amassed even more wealth and has greater wealth now. I wouldn't look up to her but I also wouldn't call her dumb either.
I don't think Monica was ever sexually harassed. I mean what the media did to her was NOT okay but she wasn't abused. Clinton did abuse his power and they shouldn't have hooked up but at the end of the day she was just trying to get hers so kudos to her for that I guess ?
Also Kesha WAS actually being abused by Dr. Luke which is why she had to make party music even when she didn't really want to
Anything with that level of power disparity can be considered abusive. It’s somewhat along statutory principle, whereas one has less agency to say no. Such as, a prison guard having consensual sex with an inmate is still rape, because the law considers the inmate did not have enough agency to consent.
So much of this rings true
I love this post so much. I talk about the pink thing so much actually and how in elementary school it was too girly to like pink and you weren’t cool if you liked it. I’m making up for lost time pretending to hate pink. I love pink. It’s bright and fun 🥰
The hating pink thing is just so stupid, yet I struggled with it nearly all my life denying that I fucking love the color pink. I grew up with boys and in a family where I was praised because I wasn't as girly like the other girls my age, and was made fun of by my brothers and male cousins if I ever dare liked anything slightly feminine.
I denied that I liked pink for all of my childhood and early to mid-teenage years, and I only recently started accepting it. It's a goddamn color, right? And a really beautiful one at that. But I was so drowned in my internalized misogyny that I hated a color, because it was engraved in my mind that feminine = bad.
I know it's gonna sound so fucking stupid and cheesy, but admitting that I love pink helped me restore the connection with my feminine side that I've severed for the others' approval years ago.
I still struggle with pink even though I am cis-gendered girl. I know this sounds weird but, something I feel like I have to show less femininity, bc society always puts feminine women in a bad place. And I think its very brave to admit that!
A friend of mine literally asked me "What's the problem?" after I went on some condescending patriarchal rant about Ke$ha as a role model for girls... and it literally rebooted my brain and made me realize I was just a piece of shit in that case.
and what is BravoTV?
The Olivia Rodrigo backlash was super quick it feels.
Kristen Stewart is pretty cool, it's a shame that she and her husband are against bathing
Edit: holy fuck I am stupid I was thinking of Kristen Bell. Kristen Stewart's pretty cool though.
She's not married and has a long time girlfriend... 👀
Yeah I was thinking of Kristen Bell...
Ahh yeah Dax Shepherd gives me the creeps
You might be thinking of Kristen Bell
I really like Kristen Bell
You know, sometimes ... I am not okay, mentally.
But yeah, Kristen Stewart is awesome.
Yeah you can say this, but when people still hold misogynistic viewpoints toward celebrities they don't like, words are cheap.
I mean... Sure, but they're better than nothing. If you can't acknowledge you were wrong, you're not going to try to do better