Why are people actively fighting against free health care?
By - ConsiderationOk4461
Stop calling it 'free health care', call it universal healthcare instead. That will clear up a lot of the dumb comments in this thread.
It is not free!
USA based reply:
Whether or not universal healthcare is better or worse than private is a great debate.... but any debate needs to stop spinning the entire context right from the start by ignoring that there is an enormous cost of universal healthcare, that cost is hard to fathom because:
1) the current US system makes current macro costs hard to understand.
2) nobody can trust any numbers provided by either healthcare orgs or the government, because none of them have any credibility for transparency or accuracy in forecasting a change this large.
But most of all, stop calling it FREE!!!!!!
My parents are extremely against free health care.
The main points they present is the long wait times to see a doctor and how little the doctors are actually paid under that system.
Their evidence is my aunt who lives in Canada and their doctor who moved to America from Canada to open his own practice because of how little he was paid when he started over there.
I'm a Canadian and have realized that while it can be great, it DEFINITELY has drawbacks.
IE My story:
My mother is currently crippled and unable to walk due to a necessary hip surgery (genetic issue) she needs (she is only 50). Basically, one hip socket is small than the other, and the ball of her hip is popped out and bone on bone has splintered and is rubbing bone on bone, which is now causing spine issues (lower spine has become an S). She is in constant, unbearable pain, now ruining her liver with copious pain meds.
This is considered an elective surgery, and she has about a 9 month wait (before lockdown, now about a year wait)
If we could pay for her to have this done, we would in a heartbeat. My father has a great job, and would probably have great private insurance in the US so it wouldn't even cost that much (?)
Why is it considered an elective surgery?
because it's not "life threatening"
STUPID asf - she can't work, and may kill herself from the sheer amount of pain medication she needs to take for the pain to be bearable
My pops died from liver disease while awaiting a similar surgery.
Was over 3 years waiting.
He had a pre-existing condition but the pain meds are what really did him in.
There were a lot of factors but I honestly believe he would still be alive if we had the option of access to better healthcare
My girlfriend died because she could not afford insulin.
my grandfather needed eye surgery. they said that the wait between one eye and second eye was 2 years. He just paid from his pension and got it done in 2 months
My dad just got eye surgery, two week wait because the first eye needs to heal. Both covered my medical.
Sorry to hear that.
Yeah, some things I feel are mislabelled or not handled properly here in Australia.
About 8 years ago, when I was around 24, I had a blood clot in my lung, followed by a bunch of other long issues, including pneumonia etc.
I needed to have a scan done, because my specialist suspected I might have some kind of cancer (he said his guess was like 15% odds).
Because it wasn't strictly needed, the scans cost me about $300-$400.
Thankfully it wasn't cancer. But I often think about how stupid it would be if I couldn't afford it and it was something related to cancer. I imagine catching it sooner is going to be a lot cheaper (unless I die I guess).
Epipens (lifesaving severe allergic reaction meds) cost $600-$700 for a 2pk. In canada $40-$100. Scale that with just about everything. To walk in the door for a doc office visit will run you $75.
I have even refused and ambulance after a car accident. Called a friend and had them pick me up and take me. Firefighters kept asking me if they could get me in the ambulance too. They just wanted to help but know that I can't afford it. And with how important credit is here those bills can haunt you for years.
The healthcare system here is rigged for profit.
Having to pay for an ambulance just blows my mind.
Where are you, that you don't have to pay for an ambulance? In Canada, they charge something like $500. Obviously I would use one if needed, especially for my kid, but we try to avoid them.
Not OP, but I'm in the UK and I genuinely didn't realise that other countries have to pay for any healthcare until I was around 15. The fact that you would have to pay for an ambulance is so alien to me, as is paying for a doctor's appointment. I just don't see why an ambulance should be any different to calling the police or the fire service.
The fact people have to refuse ambulances is fucked. It's especially messed up when you consider how lower socio-economic status is often correlated with more health issues.
It's like "You're poor? Well, now you've got a few extra problems too". Absolutely sucks
It's definitely not better here in America. Our healthcare providers have all the same issues. None of them want to pay for these kinds of things, and will do everything they can to get out of it.
I went to an emergency room because I thought I was poisoned and was dying (I was half right). I have great healthcare through my wife's work. Kaiser, for anyone interested. This is when I learned that health insurance only covers your health if you go to the right hospital.
It cost me over $3000 for an iv (just saline and anti-nausea meds) and about 15 minutes of doctor time.
Yup that’s how insurance works. I’ve had people dying in my ambulance and they’ll be like take me to so and so hospital!!! And I would have to be like ma’am that hospital is an hour away and you won’t make it alive sorry but we’re going to the closest.
My ambulance ride for two broken wrists (apartment fire, had to jump out of a second-story window) to the hospital cost me $2300. Mind you, the hospital was 5 blocks away. Add two cracked vertebrae to the wrists and my hospital bill came to $235,000. I had no insurance and, needless to say, still owe the whole shebang. Not proud of that, but what was I going to do?
Australian here my ambulance cover is about $75USD/year
Ambulance, boat, helicopter or plane ride will depend on how far and how f’d you are
Edit: that’s unlimited distance btw, friends have been air lifted 200km no issue
Here in the UK, we don't even have that. You just call up 999, they send you an ambulance and either sort you out there or cart you off to hospital. Sometimes a heli is used if you're severely injured or out in the sticks. Pretty good not having to worry about the money aspect if you are in a very sticky situation
Don’t pay it and beg them to lower it. Shoot my brother had torn his esophagus from vomiting and it came out to 89,000$ insurance covered it but damn. Ambulance ride was 3k for 2 miles. I can’t complain they save his fat ass and got him down the staircase. That’s priceless.
Have u tried applying for the various charitys through the hospital. I got a 40k bill down to 950 when i had surgery. Nobodys gonna pay that amount
This sounds just like my US health insurance. If it’s deemed elective, insurances won’t pay for it anyway.
So whats the difference? We already have this drawback.
The majority of people in the USA that get hip and knee replacements are on Medicare, the US version of universal healthcare for people 65 and older. So let’s not crap too hard on universal healthcare when the majority of these types of surgeries are being cover by it in both countries.
because she could technically live the rest of her live while not dying from it.
The flip side of this is in the US there are thousands of people waiting at least this long due to not being able to afford the surgery.
Or waiting this long anyway and still paying an arm and a leg while waiting to be seen to make sure they don't die while waiting for availability.
Ya that's what I don't understand. People say, well if people have health care and can go see a doctor they will and there will be wait times. Like the reason wait times are low is because people can't afford to go to the doctors.
The point isn't that it would be better for everyone, it's that it might be worse for them personally. They're not really concerned about the rest.
Do Canadians think Americans can just.....get stuff done whenever? My dad has well-documented heart problems (had a heart valve replacement 10 years ago) and he’s been to urgent care where they said “yeah you’ve got some fibrillation going on there”, and his blood pressure is consistently 180/120+ and he still hasn’t been able to get an appointment with his cardiologist for the past 2 months
Right? I went to the hospital to get checked up on some issues I was having at the time (about five years ago). The doctor told me that my heart seemed like it was irregular and it was important I go see a specialist.
They didn’t have any openings for another four months.
This is exactly what my client has been dealing with (heart issues and more), and in addition to playing the waiting game to see specialists, she's having to duke it out with her insurance company to cover every little test and every appointment.
And those damned tests.
“Yeah so we ran some tests and it turns out you’re all good. You didn’t have the problem you thought you had. The good news is your insurance covered 80% of your costs. So it’ll only be $600 out of pocket for you. And we still don’t know what’s wrong with you.”
Yeah when I moved in with my boyfriend and wanted to get on birth control I waited 6 months to get an appointment with a gynecologist....and when I did get an appointment I was only seen by a nurse practitioner. Whenever I see these comments about “well at least in America we don’t have wait times!” I’m just like......what?
Yeah, evert specialist receptionist be like "no...no... not May 6th of next week..... May 6th of next year."
But you can go to the states to get the surgery. Or pay for it at a private place in Canada. So it's not under your insurance, but it's still not like America where you have to be insured.
The elective surgery thing just delays everything which sucks.
>My father has a great job, and would probably have great private insurance in the US so it wouldn't even cost that much (?)
You can get insurance in america.. why don't you come buy it and see how much it will cost. Lol
FYI “great insurance” in the USA means you pay $300-500 a month, then for something like what you are talking about, you will have to pay the full deductible of about $7,000. Then the insurance company or the hospital will screw up the billing, and more than likely you will get stuck with an extra bill. Plus every single person that works on you must be in network, so that you qualify for the agreed open deductible. However you run a good chance that one of the doctors will be out of network, and you will not find this out until you get the bill... so then you will owe another 10-30k for something your insurance should have coved.
Insurance in the USA is a complete joke. Bare minimum for just one year, and paying the full deductible your looking at $11,800 to have that hip replaced, assuming none of the above happens, and double or triples your bill to $20,000-40,000....
However if you walk in the door with cash in hand, they will get you fixed up, and out the door for 1/4 of that.
We thought my wife broke her ankle when we were on vacation, with no insurance. With insurance it would have cost us $4-5,000 over what we already pay in monthly payments... but since we paid in CASH, it was $800.
Add in that you usually don’t get much of a choice about healthcare plans. It depends on what your employer offers & how much you pay for your premium depends on how much that company chooses to subsidize. If you work for a large company, you may get more choices, often different tiers of coverage (with proportional fees for premiums).
It’s all truly ridiculous.
I like to call it prepaid partial medical coverage.
“Screw up the billing” is a funny way to say “suck you dry if they think they can get away with it”
I had an ultrasound a few months back. A day prior I got a call from the hospital kindly letting me know the cost for the ultrasound was 1,100$. My insurance agreed to pay for 28$. “Would you like to pay the 1,72$ with a card today?” No I would not. Got my bill in the mail, 300$ total. If they could have gotten away with the 1,000$ they would have.
But that’s also fucking ridiculous that it cost $300. I’m a med student and know what disposable materials they need for an ultrasound, and it definitely doesn’t come close to $300. And they only take about 10 minutes to do. Fuck that.
Don't worry it would still cost massively more in America with "great" level insurance.
Thats why the best is having both; Public for the ones that need it and cant afford otherwise, and the rest can choose to pay for a "better" (it may or may not be) service with less waiting times because theres less people that can afford it. That way theres no people that could and would like to pay for private flooding the public one, and theres not, you know, dying people that cannot afford treatment.. Having both is a win win
Edit: Oh my god people, my english is not perfect but some of you trully makes me wonder if any one of us in teh conversation is seriously lacking something
Imagine you have two stands, both have the same hotdog, one sells for 10 bucks, the other is free. Most will go to the free one, some will pay as the queue is shorter in that stand. Is a bit more complicated , but is not that hard to grasp
Generally systems like that turn the public option into garbage in the US because public funding is cut by conservatives, who then use the subsequent drop in quality as a "reason" to cut "failing" public services, and the cycle repeats.
Another anecdote on public healthcare. I moved home, to a rural community, where I was on a waitlist for a family doc, never got a call. Then taking time off work to go on the day of a new doctor announcing he was taking patients, filling out an application, then 1 1/2 years later I got a call I was accepted to him.
3 1/2 years to get a family doctor!! Gee what a great system
Idk thousands is kind of a lot for me. I pay a lot for my insurance through work and if I had to get a surgery of any type it would be $3k minimum if it was covered. Having an IV for food poisoning was $2700 after they popped my IV with some benzos and did a bunch of random tests. They’ll do whatever they can to hit that deductible or get near it.
Your 2nd paragraph!
We have free healthcare in our country. Like you literally pay $0.25 per consultation/medicine/everything. And I am grateful for that eventhough the waiting time is long. Everyone gets to be treated at the end of the day
But the pay for doctors are really low. Theyre extremely overworked but underpaid. But theres nothing that will be done because they want to keep the cost low maybe?And doctors dont make up a significant number of voters I guess, so their voice kinda fades away. I feel bad for them and my father knew this enough to not let me become a doctor.
The difference in wait times to the cost kind of don't make sense though. Like how much more time? Have they compared the numbers or they are just going off their own beliefs.
It depends on what you're dealing with. When it comes to emergency medicine, the wait times aren't generally *that* bad once you're triaged. For example, I broke my ankle back in the fall (in Ontario), was taken to the hospital in an ambulance (for $45), had my ankle set and was on my way home within four hours or so. Surgery was scheduled for a couple days later to put in plates, which, given covid and that it was a weekend, was totally reasonable.
If we're talking elective surgeries, like joint replacements, they can be 9 months to a year (sometimes more, especially with covid).
The second situation is where a lot of the arguments lay. You have people with debilitating problems who need the surgery to get out of a wheelchair, waiting the same amount of time as former athletes who can still get around and do their thing, even though it hurts (my dad was one of the latter). We need to streamline that whole part of the system, but otherwise it works pretty well, in my experience at least. Of course there are other circumstances that I won't have considered, and I'm happy to hear them. The highest cost associated with a hospital stay in Canada is generally if your family parks their car in the hospital lot.
I second the ankle example. Just after Christmas, I slipped and and had a trimalleolor fracture. I went to emerg in an ambulance at 8pm, had it cast that night, had surgery to fix my ankle at 1 pm the next day, enjoyed my fine hospital dinner at 5, and the wife picked me up at 530 to go home. I think if the urgency is there, then the care is delivered quickly and efficiently. Total bill was $235 - 45 for the ambulance, 45 for the fibreglass cast upgrade, and 145 for the walking boot. All paid through my wife's group insurance.
Seriously. I've always had egregious wait time here in the US
I'm an EMT in the US. Once I took someone actively suicidal to the ER. They sat her in the waiting room and said it would be 6 hours until someone could see her.
That's probably my most egregious story, but our system isn't sunshine and rainbows either
I went to the ER once because I kept vomiting latge amounts of blood (the entire sink would be filled every time I threw up). I waited around 6 hours to be triaged, vomiting blood violently the entire time (I even tried to let a nurse know, who really could have cared less). Finally after around 15 hours they took my vitals etc! I was hospitalized for 3 weeks...
I had to wait over a month just to get a monitor for my *heart*, in CLEVELAND, with the Cleveland Clinic that boasts day and night about being the best at heart related care.
Any complaint about wait time is such a fucking eye roll from me. Besides, the "problem" with wait times isn't a matter of private vs public. Not a damn thing is stopping our current system from *being better*, it doesn't do it because it's not profitable. And it's a "problem" in other places because people at the top in their govt are greedy and sadistic.
These are all clear problems of logistics. Justt pay people a fair fucking wage and stop grabbing to have *yet another yacht* 🙄.
Taxes and fear of lowered quality
Even though Americans pay more tax towards Healthcare than any country with universal Healthcare.
There's a moral aspect for many people as well. We don't want government having so much control over people's healthcare choices, and especially not the federal government.
Which I find ironic because instead it's the insurance corporations who can literally decide to let you die.
The government in Canada has zero say over any individual's healthcare choices.
Seriously, my insurance had the audacity to “down grade” my medication because it was cheaper for them. And had to suffer an entire month before i got it fixed, fuck the US insurance companies, theyre worse than the fucking federal government. Theyre all scalpers.
I’m sorry what?! I’m not American so I don’t know much about your healthcare.. but they can just change your medication against your doctors advice? That doesn’t even seem legal tbh.
Yeah, basically they told the doctor, that one is expensive and unnecessary, go ahead and proscribe this older version thats cheaper and has waaay more shittier side effects. Oh and btw that med actually takes 4 weeks to show signs of improvement, as soon as those 4 weeks were up, and no signs of improvement i blasted the insurance company to get me the right medication. So fucking stupid
Dude, they've pulled this shit on my dad a few times... He needs a prescription drug, and he and his doctor figured out he HAS to take the name brand drug. For some reason, the generic one doesn't work or it gives him a bad reaction or something. Several times the insurance company has switched him over to the generic brand, and he has to spend hours on the phone with these dumbasses to sort it out.
This is insane. So doctors do what the corporations tell them?!
I live in Scotland and we would riot over that shit.
American here, we're very cowardly.
Vyvanse makes me functional, an amazing employee, etc. Adderal makes me feel like I'm jacked up (hits harder).
Insurance covers 30 Adderall for $7
They done convey Vyvanse, workout insurance it's $379 for 30 days. Guess which one I take
My experience was working for a supplemental medicare plan. The idea is that the insurance company updates their formulary (covered medication list) every year. This can change a covered medication from a name brand to a generic. Or from a name brand to another name brand. So your original prescribed medication is no longer covered by the insurance plan and you need to change to the new covered medication.
The thing about America is that literally any industry with any privatized aspect whatsoever will inevitably have its companies end up lobbying hard to keep their line of work from getting regulated or their products/services from becoming more fairly distributed. And whatever politicians take the bribes will always come up with a way to convince half our country that making it harder for low-income people to obtain something that should be a right is somehow making the system more balanced.
Agree, pretty much this.. American healthcare is perhaps the 3rd or 4th largest industry (after defense and or energy) in terms of dollars spent/generated, this gives the major players (Insurance companies, Hospitals, Big Pharma, Diagnostics/Labs and Medical device companies, Medical Billing etc.) lots of power in the market to shape it to their profit goals.
So they funnel lots of money towards politicians and parties (both really) to keep the system more of less the same . They use a lot of scare mongering tactics, like long wait times, "death panels" , unable to see your own doctor, etc as propoganda for their agenda.
Per person, the US healthcare system costs more money than countries with public healthcare. A "free" US healthcare system would actually save money.
There are laws that have been enacted on behalf of pharmaceutical companies and healthcare service companies that keep prices high. In many places it is illegal to advertise prices for healthcare, and existing hospitals often get input into the decision on if a new hospital is allowed to be built in their market.
What would a free-market healthcare system in the US even look like? Right now it's effectively under cartel control.
One thing to consider: plastic surgery to enhance/change your looks is often not under the same artificial controls of most of the healthcare industry and has become better and cheaper over the last 4 decades.
Money saved is money not spent on insurance or healthcare, which means reduced profits.
Would prefer shareholder profits?
Family members being able to afford treatment and not go bankrupt?
These two groups are mutually exclusive for the most part.
Those pushing to bury individuals with medical debt, are not concerned with accruing any meaningful amounts of debt due to their ability to pash cash for anything not covered in the best medical plans available.
Not only that. But under W the bankruptcy laws got tightened up especially re health care debt.
Btw, politicians tiptoe around people who don’t want to give up their private insurance & transition to a universal system. Who has such great insurance right now they don’t want to give it up? Unionists...whose endorsement is important to politicians. That’s pretty much it. The vast minority of citizens in America deal with what is practically a legal scam with the private health insurance industry. And union numbers are decreasing as they are being actively suppressed.
The GOP is simultaneously propping up private insurance & killing unions. It’s an interesting dichotomy.
USA: "Profits! Gimme the profits! Fuck those family members -- they should have tried not getting sick!"
Me or people with capital who invested it in healthcare companies?
Cuz nobody gives a fuck what I want.
exactly, all those "savings" come from cutting out middlemen, and the middleman can afford to lobby against it
overall just bad for the extractive hegemonic forces we know and love
Try telling that to republicans, they lose their shit at the thought of a impoverished family with a child, born with a heart defect, getting surgery for free.
BuT wHaT aBoUt ThE dRuG aDdIcTs WhO cHoOsE tO sTaY AdDiCtEd?!?!
Some would say free healthcare and social workers can help beat addiction/mental health and get the person back to a productive life. But that would mean admitting that homeless addicted are regular people like yourself and not "other".
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the supposed "pro life" party.
It's kinda sad how republicans can't see why abortion is good for the economy and lives of the American people.
They can't even see why **family planning** is good for the economy, they're so very *very* eager to punish somebody.
Some of them don't even care about profits, they just want others to suffer.
Ok, I get the companies. But why are the people defending this?
This is what I don’t understand. I’m in the UK, and though things are far from ideal here, I sleep better at night knowing that if I get ill I won’t lose my house. Or my job for that matter. I don’t pay absurdly high taxes, and I’m happy to help other people get their insulin or whatever they need to have a decent quality of life. Why so many Americans fall for the corporate line is baffling to me.
Besides the most repeated idea about "lobbying" and politics in this post, another big aspect is individuals that think that "it's not fair to pay for others illnesses" and want to pay only for their own. Yes, is that sad.
But if you’re paying into an insurance pot, then this is what the money is used for anyway. Plus the cut for the CEO, shareholders etc. How can anyone think that is better value for their dollar?
>How can anyone think that is better value for their dollar?
Because they believe their employer-sponsored catastrophic health insurance only costs the $200/month/person they see taken off of their paycheck.
Some people base all their political ideals on "Government Bad", which I understand but it's very easily exploitable into slogans like "No More Taxes".
Taxes for whom? the 0.1% or middle class? taxes for what? more guns or more healthcare?
Government Bad is the last stand of conservative idealism because they have absolutely nothing left to offer to regular people.
"Government bad" is so crazy.
A corporation will fuck you over more every single time. It's literally their goal. Yeah, government will also fuck it up, but at least they are trying to help some people.
For every shit head like Trump, there's an idealist out there that wants to actually make America better for everyone in it. We just rarely get to seem them shine because they are stuck dealing with party line politics and ignorant voters.
Because they literally aren't thinking about it.
There are also those who fear having worse healthcare if it's run by the government. But from everything I understand, nothing says you couldn't still buy your own private health insurance if you so choose.
The sad part is - insurance company are already interfering with your 'good health care' based on money. It's literally - which will cost us more - if we deny 'X' or if we approve 'X'. It's not about providing good healthcare at all.
But then we are right back to the beginning - the people fighting it don't actually think about how their insurance actually already works.
I did billing for a lot of years for a very large hospital system.
We had a veteran who in the space of about 6 weeks complained of a routine allergy issue to being diagnosed with something life threatening and ending in hospice care. It was heart breaking- he was a sweet man.
He was elderly and his insurance wanted him to go to hospice on the other side of a city- about a 45 minute drive and his wife of 50 years no longer did highway drives. He choose to wait until the hospice closer to him had an open bed one that was a 15 minute drive for his wife. A bed opened up that same day- just a matter of hours later. He made it 2 weeks in hospice care.
After his death and funeral, his wife came to see me and ask why she was receiving such high bills. His insurance company refused to cover his entire last day of care in the hospital since they approved him to move to the hospice that was further from his family. It wasn’t even our bill, hospice care fell under a different portion of the insurance but his primary and I kept working on it anyway. This poor woman lost her husband in such a short period of time and now had to deal with a huge bill?
After a while I got an appeals nurse on the phone and she tells me that there is no way to overturn this bill because the medical director in charge on approvals personally denied payment for his the last day of hospital charges himself. He was the top and there was nothing more anyone could do to help us.
I did billing for years- argued with the poor workers answering phones who read from scripts and didn’t know their own policies. Kept binder and binders of “updated policies” because it happened so frequently. But this time, this broke my heart and has always stuck with me.
A veteran unexpectedly ended up terminally ill, and wanted a hospice closer to his spouse so he could see her. And those few hours left this elderly widow on a fixed income with bills in the thousands.
Unfortunately, it's as simple as identity politics.
Do you also get free dental?
Propaganda. The insurance companies will repeatedly and only use terms like "socialized medicine" to make people afraid of it (since so many Americans have been conditioned over the past 70yrs to fear socialism). They exaggerate the bad parts of it, like taking one real world example of a woman in Canada who had to wait weeks for a (voluntary) knee surgery and telling us that's how long any visit to the doctor takes. Then they also exaggerate the taxes, which in reality would either save people some money or be very close to breaking even to what people pay now. Only for some it'd be more, depending on what the tax raise actually was, but even then that'd be better than risking getting in a car accident and oops! now you're in six-figure medical debt and it was determined to be your fault so now you don't have a car and your car insurance isn't gonna pay. Or risking developing some form of treatable cancer but your insurance fights you saying it was pre-existing you just didn't know about it, and even if they do cave, the treatment will take so long and be so costly that they won't cover all of it.
Look up Wendell Potter. He's a former VP of Cigna and has talked about his time there and it's exactly what you think - just a bunch of lies and twisted truths in order to keep their profits flowing in.
As someone who has lived in the US my whole life this is something I’m still trying to figure out. One answer I’ve come to is ignorance (unwillingness to do their own research) and fear (fear of change, fear caused by ignorance, etc). I think we’ll eventually get to the point of universal healthcare but not sure it’ll be in this century lol (hoping it happens sooner but I’m losing hope). It blows my mind how we let these companies take advantage of us in SO MANY ways and we just continue letting them do it while they’re laughing at us, living their lives of luxury. It really sucks and if anyone would pay for my family to move to another country where we could have universal health coverage, I’d do it in a heart beat.
A)They don't want to have to pay for other people's health care
B)They think universal health care is slower/less effective than what we have now
C)They think the government would fuck it up somehow (these people tend to be against anything the government does)
Mostly A tbh
Propaganda, smug foolishness, tribalism
You forgot plain ol’ corruption.
As others have said, it's propaganda. There is a public option for healthcare that's state sponsored, but not free, and is probably an extension of the ACA. I see commercials against it all the time with the typical mudslinging tone and music we see in political ads saying it's the "government controlled state option". They say it with extreme disdain and disgust about how anyone can dare suggest something. They say we need to improve what we have and not start over. Just hold face lies intended to scare stupid people.
Speaking of scaring stupid people, look up what happens when you ask a Republican about the ACA and then about Obamacare. They are the same program. ACA is the official name, Obamacare is the mudslinging name.
Mainly the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.
Right, insurance actively wants people to be unhealthy so they can jack up prices for premiums.
No, insurance companies want people to be healthy so the company doesn't have to pay out. That's why insurance companies try to exclude people with pre-existing conditions. Healthy people pay in and are less likely to use their coverage.
What counts as a preexisting condition for an insurance company though? Doesn’t everything that would require insurance besides a freak car accident or childbirth count as a preexisting condition?
Anything diagnosed before your coverage started _while you were not insured_. Since 2014, denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions is largely illegal in the U.S., although you can be charged more for insurance if you have them.
Around 2000, I new a guy who was being denied insurance coverage/access to medication because he had been previously diagnosed with a heart condition.
Now you're getting it!
Insurance will usually give you like 2-3 years if you haven't been seen for the problem to make it not a pre existing condition. Although, I am sure there are some medical problems that will always count as pre existing.
Generally things that can be diagnosed, like a heart condition, diabetes, cancer. The idea is that you shouldn't be able to wait until something is wrong and then sign up for insurance. Just like you can't get home owners insurance after your house already burned down.
I kind of agree with the insurance companies there, because that's not how insurance works. But obviously sick people should have access to care. For me it just highlights why insurance is not the right way to pay for healthcare.
In Canada pre-existing conditions is called your medical history. Lol
Yeah well that's what everyone calls it, don't they. Every country I've been to anyway....
To the OP: Americans are just as at a loss
They could just jack up the prices either way. Who's going to stop them?
To clarify, I'm in favor of public healthcare (except for elective procedures and that). However, some arguments against public healthcare are:
- Publicly run organizations are less efficient than private ones (which is a fair point if you see how inefficient some government organizations like the DMV or the IRS are).
- Longer wait times and stuff like that.
- Higher taxes. Yes, you are not going to pay insurance, but some people would rather use privare healthcare (even if there is a public system) because of what I mentioned above so they would be paying twice for healthcare.
- "I don't want to pay for other people's healthcare" This argument is kinda dumb because that's what you are doing with insurance anyway but still it's the mentality some people have.
- Obviously many people profit from having no public healthcare and many people are rich enough to afford good insurances (which would be the ones with the highest tax increase) and these people have the power/influence to push against public healthcare.
I grew up in a country that has free public healthcare but it's terrible (because the government is very corrupt) so anyone who can afford it uses private healthcare (which is good). So because of my background, some arguments against public healthcare seem reasonable to me. However, the US has reached a point where medical costs are just ridiculous so I'm totally in favor of implementing public healthcare.
Great answer. A lot of it boils down to a general distrust in government, which is not unearned if you talk to people in underprivileged areas.
This is true, but we have to keep in mind that the US postal service is one of the most logistically advanced government services on earth, so it's possible, we just have to give a shit. I don't know that our current government has any serious plans about giving a shit. About anything. So we'll see.
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.
At the appropriate time, as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door, I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.
After work, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads to my house, which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshall’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.
I then log on to the internet, which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on Facebook about how the government doesn't help me and can't do anything right.
The real reason I favor public healthcare is that private enterprise has botched things so bad and costs are so far out of control, there's no way that even the government can do worse.
People forget that the main goal of private enterprise is to make a profit, not to provide the service. As long as they're profitable, they don't care that they're failing at the goal.
The profit IS the goal.
Gotta serve those shareholders. Literally and legally the obligation.
Legally? Where is that enshrined in law? I have a family full of lawyers but none specialize in this. Serious question.
If they don't do everything they can to maximize profit, shareholders can sue.
I'm just not a fan of putting my health in the hands of a private, profit-driven entity.
Healthcare companies are driven by the only thing that drives all companies. To make more money this year than they did last year. When you apply this concept to something that everyone NEEDS, you're going to have a bad time, affecting those who earn the least, the most. That's regardless of why they earn the least, which is more often just everyday things everyone experiences at some point. And the argument that competition will drive the market and keep premiums down hasn't seemed to pan out. So I think making healthcare socialized makes it inherently better from the start as the goal becomes to offer the most for the funds available. Convincing those who eat up propaganda and call it communism is the hard part. There are ways to make it work and scale up what many other counties have done.
I love this , but who wrote it originally? I think it's been about for a while.
Also NIST is awesome and they provided free information security templates which I incorporated into the security policy I wrote for a company a few years back.
In 5 minutes of web-searching I found a lot of hits in 2009, but also one from then that said it had been "running around the inner-tubes since Ronnie Reagan". But they didn't know the source and it doesn't look like anyone does, or at least it's not easily found. So, as Paul Harvey would say........good day!
Yes. This. It's also important to mention that if private companies are in competition with government organisations or have any other interest in seeing them fail, they are often more than willing to lobby to make that organisation less effective.
Private and public health care is an interesting example as well. I'm in Canada and it's pretty well-known that wait times will be longer for public than private for things like surgeries, specialists, etc. So what happens? Those that can afford it go private. I believe this is going to cause further decline in the public system because why would the rich want to pay for a service they never use? Not to mention that the private providers have every incentive to see the public system fail or at least deteriorate further.
It is incredibly advanced for a government service. It unfortunately, at least in my experience, pales in comparison to it's big private competitors. The only upside of the US post in my opinion is that they have an obligation to serve those that might not otherwise be profitable, but they are still far beneath their competitors in my experience, and their competitors are operating without state sponsored infastructure.
The private competitors actually cut costs by using the USPS, and its infrastructure, for less profitable deliveries.
That's odd. I vastly prefer USPS over the private companies for almost every occasion I've encountered
A large fraction of the USPS inefficiency is due to having price caps, raising all funds itself, and paying pensions 10 years in advance. The USPS is less a government agency and more a private service with its feet chopped off.
My experience is completely counter to yours.
My old company shipped things constantly. FedEx was great if you wanted your package destroyed half the time (and shitty customer service the other half). UPS was much better but did not meet timeliness criteria just enough to count. USPS was cheaper (even with FedEx/UPS business rates) and consistently delivered on time with less damage.
Maybe you're mentioning some private competitor I don't know about?
I just want to +1 that this has always been my experience as well. A previous company I worked for also did business very closely with both UPS/FedEx/USPS and I can at least anecdotally confirm this, but from what I gather from others in that industry is that they generally shared my sentiment.
>Publicly run organizations are less efficient than private ones (which is a fair point if you see how inefficient some government organizations like the DMV or the IRS are).
I am undecided on how I feel about the idea, but this point is the crucial one to me. In my profession I am in near daily contact with Federal and State governments, and their level of efficiency and professionalism, is to be perfectly blunt.... laughable. The very last thing I want is my healthcare to be tied into this system.
I'm also Canadian and have realized that while it can be great, it DEFINITELY has drawbacks.
IE My story:
My mother is currently crippled and unable to walk due to a necessary hip surgery (genetic issue) she needs (she is only 50). Basically, one hip socket is smaller than the other, and the ball of her hip is popped out, and now bone on bone has splintered and is rubbing up against each other, which is now causing spine issues (lower spine has become an S). She is in constant, unbearable pain, now ruining her liver with pain meds.
This is considered an elective surgery, and she has about a 9 month wait (before lockdown, now about a year wait)
If we could pay for her to have this done, we would in a heartbeat. My father has a great job, and would probably have great private insurance in the US so it wouldn't even cost that much (?)
Question from an American - are there both public and private options for healthcare in Canada, or is it only public? I’ve heard that it’s harder to get elective surgeries done quickly in Canada, compared to other countries with universal healthcare. However, everything I’ve heard has been anecdotal, so I could be wrong.
I am not from Canada, I live in Mexico and have never left the country, but here you have both options, if you wish to get private insurance you are more than free to get it, if you don't want the insurance and want to go to a hospital which happens to be private, you will pay a lot of money but it is your choice.
My mother had cancer and she was treated and even got 2 surgeries, we didn't pay a single cent, but there is 2 different Healthcare providers which are free to the public, IMSS and ISSSTE, the second one is for government workers and it is 10 times better than the first one, that's the one which treated my mother.
But don't think that things are okay here, 1 year ago the current president destroyed the Healthcare system in here so right now cancer patients are going down like flies and people are not getting their meds.
Depends on the province. I'm in Ontario where no private surgeries are allowed. I believe in Quebec they have private, however, in BC the supreme court just ruled NO private healthcare at all is allowed.... so it's a toss up
The fear is that private will take doctors and dollars away from public, but I find it's the opposite- a combination of the two works well because the rich who can afford to pay will, taking strain off the public system
I’ve always thought that a public option in which everyone pays into the system (and therefore has access to the public system) but is allowed to purchase private, specialized insurance is a good idea. Obviously it’s hard to tell without implementing it.
I'm so sorry to hear that, I really hate that. This is why I am so in the middle of the road on this issue. I needed a pretty invasive (but also elective) foot surgery a couple of years ago. It was a tricky surgery, but I found the doctor I wanted a state away and messaged him on twitter to hear his opinion. He replied, I drove up, got an MRI, had another apt then the surgery very soon after. It is hard to beat that at the end of the day. I think a solution to help the costs here could be catastrophic insurance (ie after X amount (based on income) of hospital bills because of cancer or something the govt helps out. This combined with open pricing (ie every hospital has to say how much x procedure, drug, whatever costs openly) would really drive down the cost issue here in the US. I am lucky to have decent insurance, so most things are fine for myself and my wife who does have multiple chronic health issues. But not everyone is that fortunate, we need a more stable middle ground. I hope you find a solution for your mother. Best of luck. Also, depending on how great a job your father has, if you call some hospitals you should be able to get estimates on these procedures out of pocket. And if you tell them you are paying with cash they will almost certainly give you a discount. Heck, may be worth writing letters to surgeons where you want to get it done. I know several docs that do free/reduced work in certain situations. Again, best of luck.
This is an argument for properly funding our healthcare, not enacting private care. Per capita Government spending on healthcare is LESS in Canada than the US. Then Americans pay insurance and fees on top of that.
Elective surgery isn't necessarily covered under private insurance; it has to be considered medically necessary (and, then, you get to fight the insurance company to demonstrate it is, indeed, medically necessary).
Also, you do have the option to pay money to have the surgery done today. You could travel to any of the medical tourism countries around the world for it.
I'm also Canadian, and there are some issues with universal healthcare.
I.e. my wife needs to see a gyno, but unless it's life threatening, she can't get an appointment for at least a YEAR. Instead, she's going to a pelvic floor physio, so we're now paying that out of pocket. It's private healthcare, but with more steps, and I don't have insurance that covers it.
Having said that, not having to worry about costs in general is nice....it just takes forever If you need treatment for anything that won't kill you.
My point is, it's not all sunshine and rainbows under one system, and hell under another.
It's all luck of the draw, really. In Manitoba I was told 2 years to see a dermatologist. It took 1 month in bc. Beyond that, there are no doctors in bc taking patients.
is it because they don’t get to set their prices? Don’t know to much about this except what the media tells me lol
Doctors (often) bill per service. Basically they input a code for the procedure they do and the government (who is the insurer) pays them for it.
Doctors make quite a bit of money but ultimately it's decided by the government.
As for lack of doctors and specialists. It's often mostly remote areas that have trouble attracting people for obvious reasons. However, if you are willing to take those jobs you make A LOT of money.
A year? Where the fuck do you live? Yellowknife?
This might be a matter of me living in Toronto but I’ve seen a TON of specialists over the last 5 years (derms, neuro, rheumatologist, MRIs etc) and never experienced anything close to this. Waits have been 1-3 months and my issues are non-urgent.
American here. I called my gyno today and I have an appointment on Thursday.
I would still like to see Medicare for all. Just because I’m in a good spot doesn’t mean much to me. Much rather see a change.
That kind of stuff happens on private insurance, too. It really just comes down to money, availability of services, etc, etc.
When my son was little, we had private insurance and he was covered through a national program that gives kids Medicaid if parents make below a certain income. We used our private insurance to take him to a behavioral specialist and then got a referral to speech therapy. They told us it was a six month wait, so we went looking elsewhere. Found someone at a different clinic/system that got him in by the end of the month. Same insurance, same costs, just one clinic was oversaturated with patients and one happened to have an opening.
The original clinic did end up calling us back to schedule him...over a year later.
I am all for universal healthcare because I already deal with the shit parts of the system while still having to pay for it. Not having to worry about networks and co-pays and deductibles and shit would be a huge burden off my shoulders and is the first step, imo, towards fixing a broken system.
I would say that your example isn't about universal healthcare but about how the universal healthcare is run in your country.
This isn’t the only kind of universal healthcare. In switzerland and japan there is an individual mandate for health insurance, and profits are illegalized, but the insurance is still run through private companies. People who lose their job or make under a certain amount of money have their insurance covered by the government, but the payment and service still goes to the private companies.
There are a lot of upsides here. Healthcare portability, more market choice as a consumer, and no risk of being refused. By law insurance companies in these countries must sell insurance plans at the same price to the same people.
In these countries expense ends up being a little higher, but those wait times are reduced to about the same give or take as most of the US.
Personally I am all for free health care, however I dont trust my government to actually manage/run it. They cant even run free healthcare for veterans without it being a clusterfuck. Every story I've ever heard about the VA has been terrible.
What I do support is a middle ground were the government steps in and regulates how much a given procedure/medication can cost. For example the bill that is getting introduced to congress IIRC of capping the cost of insulin to $75/vile. I'm not going to claim it's the perfect solution but it's at least a step in the right direction.
This. Over half of Americans don’t want the government running healthcare. Medicare (where government sets prices that it will accept from doctors to perform procedures) is a good model, which is why I liked the “Medicare for all who want it” approach many moderate Dems are taking.
This exactly. I *can* use the VA but I would rather pay for my private insurance via my employer. However it's nice to have that fallback option should I find myself unemployed. For that reason I support M4A. Shitty insurance is better than nothing. Though I would like to see more discussion about where we can cut costs (ex: VA medical and Medicaid becomes redundant if M4A goes into effect) to help pay for it and allow Medicare to bargain for prescription drug prices (though I understand this is being worked on?)
This is a terrible argument because we are already doing it lol. When you turn 65 or have a disability for 2 years straight you qualify for Medicare. Medicare also does the exact thing you are talking about, in most cases the prescription program only covers generics or lower cost procedures but it is a form of price restrictions. Medicare and Medicaid are literally already run by the govt, its just who has access to them...
Two years on disability before you qualify!? That seems insane to me (Canadian). I mean, the first two years are probably going to be the ones with the highest cost of care, as after that you're (ideally) stabilized and set up to continue on with less intervention in your life. Is something different done to help people with those initial costs, or are they just left to flounder into horrible debt they'll never get out of?
I had to fight for my disability for 8 years. It was a nightmare. I was repeatedly turned down. My parents, who were already poor, had to sacrifice to support me during those years. The reason I kept being turned down for disability? They wanted to see more extensive and detailed medical records by specialists proving my illness. The reason I didn’t have those? I was disabled and couldn’t work, therefore I had no money and no insurance, and couldn’t afford to see those specialists. I could only afford to go to a state run charity clinic where I saw a doctor for 15 minutes, once every 3 months. He would rush me in and out and barely scribble a few notes in my medical record. They didn’t find those notes to be a good enough explanation of why I was too sick to work, plus he wasn’t a specialist. I finally found a good lawyer who was able to help me win my case. If I hadn’t been lucky enough to have parents who could support me, I’d have been dead by then.
It depends on what disability you have but a lot of times it is the state's responsibility within that 2 year timeframe, also a lot of people are like born with disabilities so their coverage isn't lapsed by the time they can get benefits obviously.
The VA where I live has actually been a godsend. My dad goes to it for most of his medical needs. Since a lot of people feel the same as you the wait times can be less than a week, if not immediate. If they can't take care of what he needs there, they refer him to another provider with the costs covered by the VA. When he was diagnosed with cancer, he had more trouble getting the practice he was diagnosed at (before going to the VA for it) to share his info with the VA than with the VA to share with other providers covered under his Medicare.
However this is anecdotal and specific to a particular VA. All I'm saying is that it's not always shit, but there are plenty who give the VA it's crappy reputation. It can be a toss up, but it's worth a try.
I think it would also be beneficial if people could have an idea of how much something is gonna cost them beforehand.
Say you’re gonna buy a dishwasher, chances are you’re gonna compare prices and get whatever dishwasher your heart desires at the lowest possible price. Maybe if we had a “””shopping””” system with openly available costs for procedures, the inherent competitive aspect of the thing would drive prices down.
This is an idea I get behind and I've yet to be presented a problem with it. Hidden costs with healthcare is crazy and it should be brought to light.
The most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on a Dr bill was when I had my daughter and was charged $600 for a "skin to skin specialist". I had no specialist. A nurse handed me my baby, as you do, and told me to put her on my chest. I got that removed after going 87% Karen on them.
The VA has entered the chat.
the VA has given you shitty meds and exited the chat
I’m gonna be real and itll be unpopular but I really don’t care.
I’m a veteran and I use the VA for all of my healthcare, which is bought and paid for by the government. It is an absolute shit show. It took me 6 months to see a gynecologist, and not just for a routine visit but for an acute problem that I was having. 6 months of living in constant pain isn’t fun, and there was nothing I could do but wait. That’s just the most recent horror story.
When I was having a mental health crisis it took 5 weeks for the VA to set up an appointment with an available psychiatrist. It’s hard to not group the VA in with the military as to why 21 veterans kill themselves everyday.
So that’s why I am very VERY weary about the government in America instituting universal or public healthcare. I wouldn’t wish the MIGRAINES that I experience with the VA on my worst enemy.
This has been my experience as well. I used the VA only a handful of times and after my experience I'll never use it again. TOTAL SHIT SHOW!
Everytime I went to my PCP it was a new Dr who could not be bothered to read my medical history. Every appointment felt like groundhogs day explaining my symptoms. Mind you this was only like a month or so between appointments.
They spelt my name wrong on my VA card and in their system which was an enormous pain in the ass to get corrected. I spent nearly 8hrs at the hospital during my first visit because of it. What was weird was that the letter had the correct spelling, but not the card itself. No idea how that happens.
For some unknown reason, they collected a ridiculous amount of my blood for tests that weren't even related to my original health problem. My guess is the tests were (at least) double booked since I had a revolving door of PCPs. The nurse who collected my blood brought over two trays full of vials, but kept checking that they were all mine. She even commented that she had never collected so much blood before. The cherry on top was that my PCP never even got the results from those tests.
The gastroenterologist I eventually saw gave me 6 months of fiber supplements (basically large tubs of generic Metamucil) because he wasn't sure when he'd be able to see me again since he was booked so far out. I went to the pharmacy to pick it up and they had to come around to hand me this giant bag because it didn't fit through the little door contraption they normally used. I left the VA looking like I had just made a Costco run for fiber supplements...
Needless to say, I'm conflicted about a government provided healthcare system.
My dad lives in Canada, he was deported when I was young, about 6. He has been bleeding from the colon for about 6 months now. Every day, he wakes up and calls the local health care provider to see if they have open appointments. He has been calling for about five months now and has YET to secure an appointment just to be seen for the first time by a general physician.
I would like to add again that this is just an initial appointment to see a doctor. After this, he will have to wait X amount of months before getting whatever diagnostic test is needed (colonoscopy, endoscopy etc) which will then have to be a separate appointment booked later, potentially months out.
What started as something easily dismissed away as a hemorrhoid has grown into potentially full-blown colon cancer all before my dad can even secure a first-time initial appointment with the doctor.
That’s a pretty big problem.
Don't discount the medical advances that the US system has generated. As an attorney I helped negotiate a final medical bill received by a family that came to the US from a country with socialized medicine to receive cutting edge life saving treatment for their 8 year old son. In their own country, the boy was offered treatment that was known to be ineffective. Their own country refused to offer any money toward payment for the treatment in the US because it was experimental and therefore not approved. The boy's treatment was effective.
As somebody who grew up in Europe and has lived in the US for 14 years, it’s pretty inarguable that the US has a higher quality of care.
It’s the access that’s lacking for some people.
Well, I live in a country with free healthcare, Argentina. Yeah, sounds awesome but six months ago I was bitten by a scorpion (here are smaller they are poisonous anyway), called for a free ambulance, never come, a neighbor take me to hospital because my feet looked awful, had zero money left and couldn't pay a cab. I went to three different hospitals, two of them were closed due COVID, third one make me seat and wait for 2 hours, they only take care of me because I almost passed out, in that moment I didn't know if I was alergic or not. Maybe free healthcare should be available but often is just months waiting and lines at 5 A.M to be "lucky" if a doctor see you.
Ever hear Senior citizens praising Medicare? Some doctors offices won't even accept Medicare. Maybe if they fix Medicare more people would be enthusiastic about free health care. Even Medicare isn't free.
I hear just as many begging us to not touch it as well
This is not the place to go to get unbiased answers.
I mean it's a good place to get biased answers from different perspectives, and that is also valuable information.
I tore a ligament 8 months ago and I'm still waiting for surgery; thanks Canada. I'd rather pay for it then have to take a year off work.
Wow that's terrible. I feel really lucky to live in the UK and have had only positive experiences with the NHS. They've saved my life 3 times and my dad's x infinity (2 months covid ICU) and never paid a penny out of pocket.
My mother has had 2 non-emergency surgeries in her youth and it was a 4-6 month wait each time. Unfortunately after 10 years of tory cuts to the NHS, my nana has been waiting for a hip surgery for a year now. Of course we could go private, though i take it that's not an option for you, but we can't realistically afford it.
That makes me think that universal healthcare can work but only if you fund it.
Not to downplay your experience, but just to add mine: the NHS took so long to take my mum’s cancer symptoms seriously that by the time they gave her a pancreaticoduodenectomy (6 months later) it had already spread everywhere and was basically untreatable.
She had pancreatic cancer. It was likely a death sentence anyway. But early chemo and surgery probably would have extended her life. Her GP ignored the fact she had breast cancer 6 years prior and kept prescribing her meds to settle her stomach. When she finally was admitted to hospital (after I called her GP and BEGGED) her surgeons were clearly too rushed to properly explain to us what is happening. The day her surgeon told us there is no hope and she will die soon, he literally said “I’m sorry I have to go, I have a lot of other patients, please ask the nurse if you have questions” and then left the room. Frankly we had a good case for suing, but we just wanted closure and to move on.
I also remember breaking my arm as a kid and sitting around in A&E, in pain, crying, for like 6 hours while I got X-rays and a doctor finally took a look at it.
I know the NHS does a lot of good. I’m sure some hospitals are fantastic. But you can’t have good universal healthcare without funding it out the tits. One of my biggest life regrets is not getting my mum into a private hospital ASAP. I make good money and I had the means to do it. I just trusted that the NHS wouldn’t fuck us around.
Canadian here. I've never had to wait long for something that was urgent. ER waits? Sure when I was going for something tagt was a step above a family doc but I could wait until a waiting room for few hours. If I've ever been to the ER for something that needed immediate attention like asthma - I get in right away.
I once had a dizzy spell during pregnancy and tge next day I was in to see a heart specialist, and 2 others. The following week I had an ophthalmologist appt.
My son had ongoing severe health issues and he had consistent, high quality care with specialists, primary care docs, ER and hospital stays.
I once needed an MRI and did pay out of pocket instead of waiting but guess what? I didn't need it (determined after MRI) so the system was doing its job in not getting me one immediately.
My US experience? Miami with a high fever, chills etc before I was about to get on a cruise. Sat in the ER for 3 hours and left because it wasn't happening. They sent me a bill for $1000 because I filled out paperwork before being seen.
Vegas - a stranger injured my foot in a crowd and 5 min with a nurse, 5 min with a doctor, an xray, a boot = $5000. The billing clerk came in part way through *the whole process was about 2 hours* to take partial payment....say what!?
Someone from the US coming to Canada with the same issue....max $500 Canadian.
Spokane.....10k+ for my son to stay overnight. Thank God for insurance. Here in Canada I never saw a bill. I would never worry about losing my house or being indebted for life because my kid had a random illness
You guys are being ripped off.
Universal Healthcare is where it's at. Your system is cruel,0 lacking equality
PS Healthcare in Canada is government funded but not run by government. Our system is far more efficient and effective than the US system, hands down. Does it have its drawbacks? Yes of course. Perfect healthcare doesn't exist.
it pisses me off to no end to see someone who is able to work but refuses to get free benefits. this is the people who do not deserve free healthcare. i make $16 an hour to support me, my wife, and my 2 children. i cant get any help. but if i quit my job i can get foodstamps, tannif, and all kinds of other "benefits".
Just look at how inefficient the VA is. Now expand that to everyone. No thanks.
It depends on where you are at financially, but I'll give it to you straight chief.
Americans both LOVE and are somehow impeccably skilled at taking advantage of something. 10 more oz for 10 cents gotta have it- mentality. Understandably, there's going to be a LARGE number of people who abuse the system WAY more if health care was free. I work in EMS part time, my wife is a full time medic. We have endless frequent flyers- those wanting drugs or attention. A lot of these people are on some form of state funded health care. They take up so much time and resources, WAY more than you'd think. You know these people, in cities of tens of hundreds of thousands, by name.
Now, a few bad apples shouldn't spoil the bunch right? No of course not. But imagine if you had. at bar minimum, and equal number of bad apples to good apples. People always forget to factor in the American culture when thinking about this. ER's, doctors offices, they only have SO many rooms. A few months back I had to drive a pt over 8 hours just to get to a psyche ward, as every other one was at capacity. Some had to go to hospitals an hour away, because all the ones in town were full. I had times where I could count the number of beds in the entire hospital on one hand. If it was simply paid via taxes, people would be going in non-stop. There's be lines outside of the waiting rooms.
Realistically, we need something. Importantly, we should have tax funded healthcare for anyone 18 and under. I'd be more than happy having my tax dollars spent on that. Children and those with terminal illnesses, or Chronic Conditions, should be covered. Honestly, that seems to be the only system that would work at this moment and time. If we could get a boost to infrastructure, and incentivize more people to become nurses/P.A.'s, then we could transition into a universal health care based system.
What you are saying is that you already have those people. So it doesn't really matter does it?
You are in EMS and your wife is a medic and these are your thoughts on the subject? I particularly liked the bit about frequent flyers.