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[deleted]

I rather we invent our own economic model. Fuck these western/foreign ideas.


amin7x

Unfortunately, Capitalism and Socialism are the only economic systems that can rapidly industrialize and modernize a nation. We have to pick the better poison which is socialism since capitalism is absolutely cancerous. Whatever system we had before colonialism is incompatible with the fast-paced destructive world we live in. With socialism we can rapidly build up industry without causing too much inequality.


panimist

The only "socialism" that can work for now is MASS education. Otherwise its just empty air. First of all. Our citizens need education to decide by themselves what works in our specific region and what doesnt work. Otherwise its just going to be war of words and empty promises. +many here on this r/somalia reddit think that socialism is "when government does stuff" and "taxes", because many are from America. In my opinion, we should develop an indigenous political system and build up our economy with an educated mass. Before we consider any economic system. Xeer for minor disputes Investment in education Maybe Special Economic Zones for easy foreign and local investments Reorganize the government to be more inclusive of fresh new ideas, but not necessarily complete anarchy. And about the government: strengthen the institutions, merit-based system, where every minister is educated in the specific ministry they command Forexample: education ministry with a specialized person, that has experience in education. Economic ministry with a specialized minister in economic studies (not to be confused with a business man). Foreign minister with education background in diplomacy And so on. Infrastructure building to attract foreign investment, but also to ease local's transport and facilities We dont have time for ridiculous "inclusiveness" and government spending for something we dont have. Although with economic growth, we could enshrine in our constitution that with a % of economic growth we spend a %of the accumulated wealth in the Education and health sector


sdzundercover

👆🏾This guy right here


amin7x

Who will own the means of production in this society? If it’s Somali people as a whole then that’s literally socialism if it’s not then it’s capitalism. No need to over complicated stuff bro. Reinventing new systems cant change the bottom line of who owns what. Unless the Somali people have true power and ownership over production then it’s capitalism. What’s worse, since there are no “big” Somali capitalists. Capitalism for Somalia would mean ownership by imperialists.


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Desperate_Donut8582

Somalia isn’t this way because of anarcho capitalism it’s because of the civil war


Gallaballatime1

Can’t we just build a social Democracy tailored after our culture and needs? We can have a welfare state with free education, medical care without being a socialist state. I really dislike it when Americans decide to view everything in this world from American lenses. It’s very myopic. And I don’t think for one second Somalis would be for socialism.


panimist

Welfare state? Hahaha. As if though our government can afford it. First and foremost, we need mass education program, before anyone would even understand the terminology


panimist

Even "communist" China doesnt go full on welfare state, because welfare state is for European countries, that have HUGE amount of money (that they, by the way stole from the rest of the world, through colonialism and their corporations that plunder third world countries TODAY). What we need is basic education and basic infrastructure to maintain a stable social and economic progress.


Gallaballatime1

That’s why I said build, alluding that we should work towards those goals


panimist

As far as my understanding goes. "Social-democracy" and welfare state is just a ruse. Let me elaborate. Forexample here in Denmark where i live right now. The "social-democratic" reforms that led to this "welfare state". Are not some idealist goals that were set by the politicians. Contrary to popular belief. The reason why the reforms were being initiated, was because the "engineer" of the modern "welfare state" argued that in order to avoid the social unrests that were happening across Europe, they need to "throw" some money at the working class. So the working class wouldnt revolt against the OBVIOUS Capitalist system, that is in both Europe and USA. And today this "welfare state" happens to be a very inefective model, because under the capitalist system, inevitably the economy has to "grow", otherwise the state coffers run out of money to support this expensive system. The economic growth in the "developed world" is between 0 to 2 to max 4%, while the "developing countries" like China are growing at about 6-10% and outpacing Europe and the west in general. In this globalized world there is also social dumping. Meaning that the work force is cheaper in poorer countries, which makes it expensive to have salaries as high as European ones. This in turn leads to austerity measures. Some worse than others. Greece is the worst example and Britain is not much better. Cuba however, is not dependent as much on "profit based" economic engine. Hence why while they still are relatively poorer than western Europe (although richer than most of eastern European nations), they can manage to have relatively high equality, education and the world famed Cuban doctors. Not to mention that Afro-Cubans are more equal to the whites than blacks are in Europe and USA. However im not defending Cuba. But just telling you that "social-democracy" is just a ruse. And only works, when industrialized countries have the upper hand. And as soon as these countries slow down economically. They will inevitably cut down on social care and other social services. +social democracy is not in fact socialist, nor is it "democratic" in the absolutist sense. Its just a patchwork for an economic "system" that is supposed to be temporary, to avoid social unrest or violent revolution.


qlmo

Social democracy only works if you have the means to be imperialist. Even the “good” social democracies like Denmark and Norway built their wealth from [colonialism/slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Gold_Coast) and benefit from being western countries in a world dominated by [US imperialism](https://www.rt.com/news/438683-norway-libya-war-report/). You really think Somalia can replicate that?? https://youtu.be/4lDZaKjfs4E


panimist

Exactly. See my other replies for more clarification


asdoopwiansdwasd

You are probally talking about strong welfare capitalism because social democracy dont go together


Willow2221

This comment section is full of Americans who don't really understand socialism.


Aizoo-cha5

Social democracy incorporated with Islamic finance Model suits Somalia or Muslims at large. However, as Somalis we need to build the nation first, improve the social amenities, infrastructure and most importantly Somalia needs to be peaceful for nation building, otherwise we have a long way to go


Longjumping-Load5336

Why don't we adopt Islamic economics. A robust redistribution system to prevent what Allah mentions in the quran "money flowing between the elites" and a free market system as the prophet said he doesn't dictate the prices in the market when he was complained to about high prices.


panimist

Islamic economics is a must for us. Interest based loans, is what is destroying many people around the world. But you should always balance the "reality" and be practical to the ever changing geo-political and local changes and needs


Longjumping-Load5336

A principle in usool ul fiqh is that Islam is malleable. When the situation becomes constrained the sharia expands, like if you have no food you can eat pig. But when the situation is facilitative then the sharia becomes more constrictive.


panimist

Exactly. Just like when when one of the khalifs forbade capital punishment. Because there was drought and therefore, it was too much to have capital punishment against a whole desperate society. I wish we had more leaders, that are logical in today's "sharica" countries. (Yes i know they are not fully sharica)


Longjumping-Load5336

The prophet said after his death there will be 30 years of rightly guided khalifs, then monarchies, then corrupted governments, then injustice will prevail then the mahdi will emerge and return the ummah to its glory


DauntlessCorvidae

Social democracy: definetly an ideal but developed mainly in western europe after the WW2. Countries like the UK had colonies to fund the nationalisation of industries whilst the Nordic nations had booming industry and raw material reserves. So that doesnt apply to Somalia, we wont see social democracy until a good 60 years of nation building. Capitalism: im assuming people mean the kind of neoliberal free trade dogma thats been the dominant form since the 80's. An African country is yet to successfully nation build by opening its economy up to the free market. Its exploitation and an incredibly uneven playing field. Might be an option if there are protectionist policies that keep money in the country. As with Socialism, there are many different forms a capitalist economy could take in combination with the governance model. Socialism: China has its own version. As does Cuba. May not be a Utopia but it has the potential to massively improve standard of living for a lot of people. Somalia needs a huge amount of public spending to develop infrastructure, education, healthcare and industry. A planned economy could achieve this. The CCP system is interesting as it is a tiered system that recruits talented individuals up through the party levels. So the average senior party member may have started off as a party official at neighbourhood level, then town council, then municipality, then regional council etc. Working their way up. The result is a very smart, competitive and meritocratic system of recruiting talent. It prevents the party from being run by morons. It seems to have worked very well indeed and their results speak for themselves.


Weezyfb

Socialism does not work anywhere. We tried it for 22 years, others have tried it for 100 years. All failed. Please stop trying to take our private property and businesses.


AtmosphereKitchen279

Our economy wasnt the problem it was clan mindset and ofcourse siad barre action. Each region was developed in somalia our economy was destroyed after ogaden war


BundyBundt

Developed countries have developed problems. None of the issues you mention hold a candle to the issues Somalis are facing today. That doesn't mean we shouldn't learn from their mistakes, but we're a far cry from arguing over capitalism and socialism. That said, IMO, nation-building is an inherently capitalist venture.


DauntlessCorvidae

Not necessarily true. At the end of colonialism we were all encouraged to try and emulate western liberal democracies. Open up your markets and vote yourselves to freedom. It didnt work. Exploitation continued under the guise of investment and free market capitalism. The only country that didnt follow that advice was China. They adapted socialist organising principles to suit their culture and political traditions. There is a lot thats a wrong with China but you cannot fault their nation building. 3rd world country to global super power in 60 years.


Beat_Saber_Music

You need capitalism to create wealth, and socialism to distribute that wealth more evenly.


Ancient_Ad_1003

Name one country where socialism worked?


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[deleted]

Where is the USSR at now ? What's Russia's economic model if not corrupt albeit still capitalism ? You guys remind me of the loser cadaan kids I went to high school with and that would spout some retarded marxist bullshit. Socialism never worked and never will, China understood that early on in the 70s and look at them now, dominating in practically any field, benevolent dictatorships like SG & China are the best economical models on an aggregate level and on an individual one the US has the best one...


qlmo

The pre USSR states were literally shitholes as bad as Somalia before socialist industrialization allowed them to build a space traveling civilization. I’m not idolizing them because no state is without fault but they did quite well for themselves. And they fell due to the Cold War waged on them by the western bloc. How is capitalism working in Africa btw? How is capitalism working for native Americans and Australian Aboriginals? :s Capitalism works if you are an imperialist country like the US. It doesn’t work for countries like Somalia.


[deleted]

😂 Ok commie, keep your dreaming.


qlmo

I wrote an essay with sources. You gave your baseless opinion with 0 citations and you’re walking out of here like you enlightened me lol.


[deleted]

😳 Your efforts are in vain as your efforts have for purpose to promote a shitty economical model. There is no functioning country that's socialist today, however, there are tens of capitalistic countries with very high human development indexes, how do you explain that? 😳


FantasticMrFAB

they just did. nothing is going to change your opinion on this. you're set in.


[deleted]

We can ghost ride the whip together fam!


Desperate_Donut8582

First of all your right usa and Soviet both worked to promote their ideologies but Venezuela specifically had a failing before usa sanctions plus they didn’t have a diverse economy which led to relying on oil which they nationalized and kicked usa companies which resulted in embargo…. So if a socialist can’t survive without trading with a capitalist country then it’s their fault pissing of the usa And for operation condor this isn’t something only capitalist usa did Soviet Union did it too for example they were in Somalia trying to spread their ideologies they also got involved in the Ethiopian war they also got involved in Cuba and Afghanistan and Middle East they were as regime changing imperialist as the usa


DauntlessCorvidae

Developing countries that attempted to adopt socialism were invariably used as chess pieces in the cold war. Afghanistan and Somalia who wanted to remain impartial, were punished for it Vietnam was bombed by the US. Cuba has been living under a US trade embargo for the last 70 years Not sure if we can claim fair test conditions for this one.


Desperate_Donut8582

Well Let’s test it on a small country like Rwanda or sum


panimist

What does that even mean? Obviously capitalism didnt work for any African country unless it has "natural" resources. Second of all, to go full on capitalist. You are gonna have zero education and corporations deciding everything that happens in the country. However for our country. Nation building and education is first concern


Dicklessdaddy

My all time favorite quote about Socialism: "Socialism is a wonderful idea. It is only as a reality that it has been disastrous. Among people of every race, color, and creed, all around the world, socialism has led to hunger in countries that used to have surplus food to export.... Nevertheless, for many of those who deal primarily in ideas, socialism remains an attractive idea -- in fact, seductive. Its every failure is explained away as due to the inadequacies of particular leaders" Thomas Sowell. Socialism has 100% failure record, and the only reason some people still believe in it is because it sounds so good on paper.


DauntlessCorvidae

Come on Dickless, you can do better than that mate. Have a look at the World Hunger index and see how many socialist nations you can find in the 10 worst affected nations.


Dicklessdaddy

Capitalism is not the only thing you need to be successful. but the difference is Socialist countries are struggling economically directly because of Socialism but there's no struggling country directly because of Capitalism. You can see how socialism inhibit economic success by how countries like China and Russia improved rapidly as soon as they introduced capitalism to their market.


DauntlessCorvidae

China isnt capitalist but strategically came up with the model of the Socialist market economy to exploit other markets and drive growth. Their system is still based on public or state ownership and all the major businesses are aware that they ultimately answer to the CCP. Xi Jinping is actually in the process of partially reversing the policy now to prevent the dilution of power and to prevent systemic shocks such as the Evergrand crisis, which is a typically capitalist debt crisis.


Dicklessdaddy

China as country isn't capitalis but their market is capitalist market with Socialist sauce on it. Yeah it's not fully capitalist I believe you can't privately own land and stuff, also corporations are directly controlled by the CCP but the Market system is largely capitalist and that's what finally lift them up from poverty while Mao's Socialism led them into deadliest famine in human history.


DauntlessCorvidae

I have no idea what a "capitalist market with socialist sauce on it" is. But I just told you China's system is called a Socialist Market Economy. A capitalist market economy, by definition, has to have private actors engaging in free enterprise with private property. Without those elements its not capitalism. As Chinese system has a bunch of state owned companies and state controlled price setting and property, it cant be considered capitalist. Maos great leap forward was a humanitarian disaster. But the famines occurred as a result of the massive push toward industrialisation and arguably laid the groundwork for China to become the fastest growing economy in the world. Im not saying its great but in a utilitarian sense you can see the reasoning behind the policy. They didnt want to ever be humiliated and colonised again and they achieved that.


Dicklessdaddy

china market is neither pure socialist nor pure Capitalist they have mixture of both systems but it's more closer to capitalism than to socialist, and that's what I call capitalism with socialism sauce, and that's what make them global supper power after their socialism efforts led them to disaster. If you think socialism works I can't convince you because even reality and history failed to convince you so this whole discussion is pointless.


DauntlessCorvidae

You're analysis of what led to China's success ia deeply flawed and you seem to want to bandy around generalistic claims and cliches as your main arguements. Of course Capitalism has worked for some countries whilst socialism has failed in others but its incredibly simplistic to stop your analysis there.


Dicklessdaddy

Yes capitalism worked for some countries and failed others but socialism failed all countries that implemented it and that's the main difference. The reason why you're so adamant about the idea that China's market is socialism when in fact it is not, is because you want to manufacture the firs ever socialism success story by attributing China's economic success to socialism.


DauntlessCorvidae

Nah bro, you're defintions are just wrong. China is a single party state. There are state owned companies, the state controls prices and heavily regulates markets. I dont know what definition of Capitalism you're working from, but this aint it. If anything its an ingenious way for China to exploit other markets without ever adopting a free market model themselves. It resembles capitalism enough to encourage foreign investments. A lot of chinese companies have quite murky ownership structures that are difficult to trace. TikTok is owned by a consortium of state entities and no one even knows exactly what the Huawei ownership looks like. Its been part of an extremely successful campaign to change global perception of their market and to encourage the flow of American dollars into their economy on Chinas terms. The flexibility and agility of the Chinese system is unmatched by liberal capitalist democratic countries. While we spend years argueing back and forth about what the best course of action is, China has already assembled an expert panel to look into an issue, selected solutions from the findings and enacted a pilot test in a region to see if it works before rolling it out nationwide. But sure, its better for Somalia to be locked into some hopeless merry-go-round of 5-yearly elections, frequent disappointments and policy reversals. But thats fine long as we get a McDonalds in Mogadishu that serves a McMos with every McBerris, right?


active-tumourtroll1

thomas sowell the same guy who opposed the civil rights movement and will lick any right wingers booth only to ignore all actual issues to focus on cancel culture bs yet again.


Dicklessdaddy

Well this is not a good argument it's called [Personal attack fallacy ](https://www.softschools.com/examples/fallacies/personal_attack_examples/500/#:~:text=Personal%20Attack%20Examples-,Personal%20Attack,person%20rather%20than%20the%20ideas.)I don't agree with all of his social and political ideas but his economics is on point.


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DauntlessCorvidae

I think you mean nationalism.


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DauntlessCorvidae

Aha! So you're insane! I get it now.


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aduunle

Oh man you need to log out and cool down. HITLER, are you kidding me??


DauntlessCorvidae

I think he must be like 15 years old and just discovered politics. But who knows, we might be witnessing the birth of a monster.


DauntlessCorvidae

Somali people: *Fuhrer, we need housing, healthcare and education!* Somali Hitler: *Lets invade Poland.*


yprimedelta

Kenya*


yprimedelta

God given rights will be protected by Hitler. He will send warlords into gulag camps


Apollo_The_Nomad

Log off of the computer for the day, and touch some grass.


[deleted]

Socialism has never worked, capitalist societies with socialist elements work, the Scandinavian economic model is a good example of that, this model has its flaws though as it is extremely rare to be wealthy under it, are Scandinavians safe, healthy, have job security and a good standard of living ? Absolutely ! Can they save as much as Americans when they do the same job? Absolutely not. Somalis in the West who like Ilhan Omar's daughter think that communism and other shitty doctrines from the Soviet era can work are incredibly stupid and should eat a bullet. I grew up in France, a country that's pretty close to what Scandinavian countries offer, I owe to France my education and other perks that would have been very tough to get in the US, however I make here 3 times less than what I'd make if I were in the US with the same credentials I have now. If I could pick a place to start my life over at it'd be the US, the upbringing would have been tough but if you put your head down and dedicate your early years to get an education your life there could genuinely be amazing, that's what Asians have forever done there and that's what I hope my kids will do. USA !


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syivdtjb

I think a Chinese system might be good for us. Intertwine the government with the economy while raising the standard of living to everyone.


waqoyi92

Brain dead roundabout commentary


Desperate_Donut8582

Somalia has been against socialism since Soviet Union hopefully it doesn’t change


ScammerLikestoScam

Socialism doesn’t work ever, Capitalism also flawed, the truth is we should have an Islamic republic with free market economics and secular elements for government. But that would never happen because the yahuud elite globalists and the Arabs that submit to them would never allow us to prosper, so capitalism is the best thing to settle for, definitely not socialism, socialism is only good for healthcare and education everything else is bureaucratic bullshit, ask any Somali that had tahriib in the uk, US tahriib is better if you are willing to work your ass off to secure your piece of the pie


Somaliboi

I believe in whatever-ism Whatever works to better Somalia, i’m for it. I don’t really care about being loyal to this or that economic dogma, careful analysis and pragmatism will lead to a better path.