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We need to stop these Dawah guys

We need to stop these Dawah guys

LordShmeat

Bhai jagraj used to get in some debates with them. They should probably be avoided as some of them are pretty weird like that Ali dawah guy who said he would let his daughter marry at 9 and that how he’s proud that the punishment for apostasy is death in Islam. Hopefully Sikhs without knowledge of sikhi avoid these people and we get some actual educated Sikhs debate them.


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LordShmeat

Ya same here these dawah people seen very insecure about their religion and seem so desperate to get people to convert. Also I’ve heard they throw in some lies here and there to prove there point but it often goes unnoticed as others aren’t as educated on Islam as them.


abcd1231515

Ali Dawah and Md Hijab are nutjobs. When they get cornered they use their cliche gotcha B.S at the top of their voice. They don't debate, they scream at you and don't let you speak which they showcase as a win lol.


Chakvi

A fundamental problem: Sikhi is a path difficult to define. Often we end up defining it in the terms of larger religions, say Islam or Christianity: A granthi is a Sikh priest; the Guru Sahibs are Sikh prophets; Guru Granth Sahib is the Sikh holy book; and so on. I wish we would not accept the false equivalencies. So when someone came to proselytize we would not engage on their terms.


DEOblockboy

These mfs are so insecure. Shits sad 😂 https://youtu.be/HdrS2p5AFJ8 Look at this vid from Bhai Jagraj, dude comes out the gate with complete BULLSHIT claiming its from SGGS And Dawah man’s a goof and a half. In his debate with Bhai Jagraj he literally says “If you’re not a Muslim and reject the faith after it’s been offered, you will burn in fire.” If that doesn’t speak volumes, idk what does. Dawah got schooled in that “debate.” Bhai Jagraj was way more calmer and at peace with his existence. Meanwhile Dawah seemed frustrated. And then he starting yapping on about rhetorical devices?? Something along the lines of the Quran has 40 rhetorical devices in ten words, therefore I win. One of the his main argument btw lol. He was basically saying my religion has more rhetorical devices, therefore it’s “correct.” Yeah it’s easy to sound all sophisticated around Sikhs who barely know much. As we saw with Bhai Jagraj, Dawah couldn’t really do shit. Just exposed how he tries to disprove all other religions so they can convert. Here’s more of this clown https://youtu.be/ngR5D3eySvk (This dude is saying this shit dead serious LMAO)


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DEOblockboy

No it doesn’t go against my “narrative.” What’s your point? Just checked that guy out and he does the same as DawahGuy. Go to other religious people who aren’t too knowledgeable, and seems to have an attempt at trying to make them convert. You call that schooling? 😂 These guys who do these debates are so fixated on seeking conversions. Oh and btw that video has been edited, the unedited version was in BasicsofSikhi channel, however seems to be gone as I can’t find it. Hence why one of the top comment being watch the original video on BasicsofSikhi. Arguing in circles with people who have 0 interest in learning doesn't get you anywhere. The simple way to shut this conversation down is to ask the Dawah guys "Have you honestly read even 50% of the Guru Granth Sahib?" If the answer is no, tell them their understanding of the Guru Granth Sahib is too basic for them to actually debate philosophical arguments about it. Just as they wouldn't accept the interpretation of an atheist who read a few passages of the Quran, they are not qualified to discuss Sikhi. Also with Jagraj, he really holds back on critiquing the quran. He largely avoids delving into the scripture, which is the opposite of what the muslims debaters do with the SGGS. I understand his reluctance, but imo if he started doing that, these debates could easily become one sided. Yet, he still dismantled Dawah Man without needing to do this.


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DEOblockboy

Yes, edited. It’s not that hard to read plus only 90 comments since they’ve been limited, so it’s right up near the top. Sroll down to the comments, here’s the direct quote, Gurshant Singh -“Watch the whole thing at basicsofsikhi” 620 likes.


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DEOblockboy

I didn’t find anything rude about him 😂. Meanwhile Ali and his gang has aggressive mannerisms whilst already in a 3v1. Hajib’s mannerisms were awful as well. A few times when Jagraj attempted to get his point across he constantly goes hm, yeah, ah-huh, etc, an abnormal amount of times while having his witty smile. Not to mention how touchy dude was. You’re saying stick to seva in a negative connotation, as if it was said in a bad way. It was said as in these debates, people aren’t here to seek knowledge. “Yes. What I would urge Jagraj Singh and company to do is stop debating these people and record videos of them doing Seva. THAT is how you spread the message of Sikhi. Arguing in circles with people who have 0 interest in learning doesn't get you anywhere.”


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DEOblockboy

Lol, alright have a good one. No point in arguing we’ll keep going in circles, the same way these debates go. Peace.


Kirpakaro

It’s not so much stopping dawah guys as much as arming Sikhs with knowledge of Sikhi. So many are ignorant of their own religion that they will be easily brainwashed by others.


ItachiPain_

You're right I just hate to see Sikhs look bad I wish it was more Sikhs Youtubers doing parchaar or doing something kids can relate too. Most these younger Sikhs don't want to learn they wear Beard and Turban like a custome. Dawah guys convert people because they think they're getting a reward from god. They got foundation and travel the world and literally convert people.


avtar87

Man the insecurity that drips off these dudes trying to convert others is so cringe. It’s a textbook case of trying to validate your own beliefs by convincing others. I agree, the only real way to combat this is to arm Sikhs with more knowledge and also help them realize that any engagement with these type of guys is likely going to be an exercise in futility. I doubt these guys would post a video of them getting turned around by someone who knew how to argue with them. There’s also this weird sense of protectionism Sikhs in the west have with not wanting to come off as critical toward other faiths, especially Ambrahamic ones, to the detriment of their own understanding of their own faith.


ItachiPain_

They only post videos when they win the debate they never show the other side. DawahMan got cooked they hated that. guy literally said Aurangzeb wasn't worried about the Sikhs they weren't a threat.


avtar87

Man, these guys live in such denial, it’s sad honestly. It’s such a blessing to be on this side of things, you don’t ever find yourself rationalizing/denying historical facts.


skeptic54

I dont think we need to take them that seriously tbh. Elements of their religion condone slavery, stoning gays, and arguably if you use the life of Muhammad as an example, child brides. Most of the explanations given around this are pretty terrible, or just straight up denial. Especially around the child marriage stuff where their own Sahih hadiths (their highest grade of authenticity) say children as young as 6 were married. Obviously Muslims themselves can be genuinely good hearted people a lot of the time, but Islam itself has some glaring flaws. I mean technically they need to pretend that the moon was once split in 2 on the prophet's night journey. https://www.np.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/ippi5q/proving_that_the_prophet_pbuh_did_split_the_moon I honestly dunno how many people will go for this stuff. Sikhs who are drawn in are usually drawn in by a lack of Sangat and finding belonging with overly friend Dawah men. We should work on being a more right knit community and making our Gurdware where we look forward to meeting with our local Sangat.


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He also ‘thighed’ (outercourse using thighs) her from the period when she was between 6 and 9-years-old... there are hadiths which talk about Aisha playing with dolls and on swings with her friends around the time this was happening. Their prophet was literally a pedophile, bro.


Sikh_Sophists2020

The west has what? A 200 year history of slavery? Islam has over 400 years under it's belt and still counting. Muhammad himself was a reputed slave merchant well into his Prophethood. Speaks volumes to the Islamist morality.


skeptic54

> Islam has over 400 years under it's belt and still counting. Over 1000. I believe the first mosque was built by a man named Bilal, who was himself a freed slave. So slavery while known to Islam for a Millennia was not stamped out for whatever reason. The argument from Dawah folks is usually that it has to be considered for the time period, but then by that same logic Islam as a religion is locked into that time period and bits and pieces should be done away with as clearly no one (aside from Isis who held slave markets) wants to defend this stuff anymore. This is known as Bi'dah though, and would be considered a sacrilege.


Sikh_Sophists2020

So much for a timeless belief system then.


[deleted]

I mean Guru Sahib did say muhammad was sent by god. Read dasam bani. He also goes onto say that muhammad lost his way and started to make his own rules


ItachiPain_

It's 50/50 with the Dasam Granth alot of people reject it.


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People nowadays reject God too lol. Bhai mani singh and baba deep singh held dasam bani on a pedestal, that should be enough for us. Pre 1920 akal thakht also did prakash of Dasam Guru Granth sahib across from SGGSJ


OriginalSetting

Even beyond the Dasam Granth, people like Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, etc would be considered "Sants" by Sikhs (i.e., religious, holy, or divinely inspired people). A Sikh wouldn't worship them or agree with everything they said but that doesn't mean it's sacrilegious for a Sikh to acknowledge them. Some videos from Basics of Sikhi on the topic, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4VJh_DIhVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp5sRHM5Obw


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OriginalSetting

Sant, not Saint and I defined how in that very same post, anyone is capable of becoming one. The Bachitar Natak talks more of how Mohammed was sent by God but lost his way with time as did many Hindu Sants or their followers. The Guru Granth Sahib also mentions Mohammed and preaches that Muslims should return to his true teachings if they wish to call themselves a Muslim. Like I said, a Sikh wouldn't worship them, see them as infallible, or consider everything their followers believe to be true, but acknowledging them or learning about them and their teachings isn't sacrilegious a OP implied.


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Muhammad did not even have the same concept of God as we Sikhs. How can he have been sent by God (the same one Guru Nanak knew and met)? Their Islamic "true teachings" are monotheism influenced by Abrahamic traditions and Arabian paganism (where music and art is banned and women are seen as inferior to men). It is not even comparable to the monistic panentheistic view of the divine that Sikhs hold. So what are the "true teachings" that Muhammad apparently had?


OriginalSetting

Why do you believe God or truth are exclusive to India? The Bachitar Natak also mentions pagan beliefs like sun and fire worship which were/are practised all over the world. https://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bachitar_Natak:_My_coming_into_the_World > It is not even comparable to the monistic panentheistic view of the divine that Sikhs hold. Monotheism vs mono pantheism aren't miles apart, especially when its already established that meanings can be lost or corrupted with time. Remember, the Quran was written after Mohammed's death by his followers.


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> Why do you believe God or truth are exclusive to India? I did not state that. Can you produce evidence that Muhammad was given the same message as the Sikh gurus? The results of his teachings (Islam) are not comparable to what Sikhs believe, it is totally different. **Edit:** Monotheism and monistic-panentheism are actually very different from each-other.


OriginalSetting

> I did not state that. I was referring to this bit about Arabic influence which heavily implies it, >How can he have been sent by God (the same one Guru Nanak knew and met)? Their Islamic "true teachings" are monotheism influenced by Abrahamic traditions and Arabian paganism Per these texts, messengers were sent all over the world throughout time but many failed or had their teachings corrupted. Local influences don't change that. > Can you produce evidence that Muhammad was given the same message as the Sikh gurus? The results of his teachings (Islam) are not comparable to what Sikhs believe, it is totally different. Guru Gobind Singh literally writes in the Bachitar Natak that Mohammed was sent by God before he was, I've linked it in my previous post. The Guru doesn't claim Mohammed was the only one either, Hindu deities like Shiva and Vishnu are also mentioned by name. We also don't know what Mohammed's true message was as the Quran was written after his death and there are different variants of it. Now of course from a Sikh perspective if Mohammed and these other Sants or deities were sent by God we would simply say that Gurbani contains their full uncorrupted message. Edit: And here's an excerpt from Guru Nanak's message to Muslims on how they can be true disciples of Mohammed. There are other messages like this too for Muslims, Hindus, etc in the Guru Granth Sahib. http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=141&L=11&id=5789


AjeetmanSingh

Guru sahib says he was granted the rule of Arabia by God therefor it's not right to do nindiya of Muhammad or anyone for that matter not to mention people like David Wood and Apostate Prophet aren't the best people to go to when learning about Islam and Islamic history. I used to disrespect Islam and Muhammad before I got into Sikhi because I couldn't understand how people could follow this guy but Guru ji says how god is in all of us so don't do nindya of any one no matter how bad.


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> not to mention people like David Wood and Apostate Prophet aren't the best people to go to when learning about Islam and Islamic history. lol what? Even though David Wood is a Christian apolagist, he still criticizes Islam using Islamic sources. What argument do you have against people like Apostate Prophet or Abdullah Sameer (both of whom are ex-Muslims and former devout Muslims)? They understand what Islam truly is and criticize it using fact, logic, and reason. I cannot believe I found a Sikh shilling for Muslims.


AjeetmanSingh

Alot of their information comes from their interpretation and wrongly translated verses and I'm no fan of Islam either there are many things against gurmat in Islam but it's not right to disrespect people based on what you think about that person Gurbani says "Ek noor sab jag upjaya kon bhale ko mande" which means "everything is created from one light so who is bad and who is good?". Nindya will only destroy the person from within we have to have a more saintly attitude towards everyone.


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AjeetmanSingh

We don't have to respect them but we shouldn't insult them either you think Guru sahib insulted the people who wanted him gone? Guru sahib destroyed tyrants but never insulted them for no reason.


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If you read the part about Muhammad in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji it says he was a misguided and self centered man. Just because people reject it does not make them right, there were followers of Prithi Chand, There were Dhirmalie, Ramraiye.... Was their beliefs correct?