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Available_Arm_2626

Russia: Lithuania, we are revoking your independence! Lithuania: Well, we are a part of NATO now so there's that...


TheDarthSnarf

Russia: Lithuania, we are revoking your independence! Lithuania: You wish to be part of Lithuania now? I guess we can talk about it, but you are going to have to do some economic redevelopment and change your laws before you are ready for membership in Lithuania. Do you wish to be known as 'East Lithuania' going forward? Also, you should start teaching Lithuanian in school now, otherwise it will be awkward for your kids later.


Cloudberrymaster

lol


Smokeyvalley

Well played.


LunarTunar

ah now you see if lithuania is in nato, and the russians revoke independance, russia becomes part of nato and triggers article 5 on ukraine


Lasereye

Big brain


[deleted]

Oh shit! Genius plan.


Airfliyer

Sounds like when the Britian tried abolishing American Independence in 1812


tracyschmeck

That was bad 🇬🇧!


GameTourist

Exactly. Argue it with NATO


EqualAstronaut

Lithaunia should revoke its own recognition of Russian independence.


Romanfiend

Since we are just doing whatever we should rename Russia as whatever the Russia word is for “baby rapists”. The rest of the world will just proceed to call them that - all western maps will use that name instead of Russia.


Simonbargiora

According to Google translate it is страна насильников


Harsimaja

Well that’s country of rapists. Country of child rapists would be страна насильников детей


Memeoligy_expert

All of NATO should cease to recognize Russia. It's only fair.


Anderson1971221

No it's something Ukraine should do as kyvi Rus as it was first know was the country and first time st Petersburg and Moscow were created that are Ukraine


sn0rtsn0rt

Orcs can yap all they want and sign papers that Lithuania suddenly isn't independent. Doesn't change the fact that Lithuanians are free and have the support of Nato so nothing will actually happen.


Godless_Heathen_M

Actually a lot COULD happen. Russia could attack since it's "not a sovereign" country and then Russia would learn what NATO getting involved in a war feels like. Not just delivering older weapons, but actual NATO forces using the latest weapon systems. Russia will be divided into multiple countries within the week unless it becomes desert. Russians are nuts to even suggest this.


CareerKnight

They are peacocking for their citizens, they don't care what anyone outside of Russia thinks of this absurdity.


numbersusername

I don’t think a lot of people realise that Putin could pull forces out tomorrow,and tell the Russian people it was a success, change the media narrative to something else and in a couple of weeks no one will be talking about the war in Ukraine.


pinetreesgreen

Yup. Thats why the don't humilitate Putin crowd is absurd. He wakes up everyday amd chooses to continue a war he could stop today and still stay in power. He can't be humiliated, when he can make up whatever he wants.


NoBagelNoBagel-

This is like Majorie Taylor Green or Rand Paul show boating for the Republican fringe while actually doing nothing.


JiveMongoose

Rand Paul isn’t fringe. He doesn’t belong near MJT in a comment.


vastation666

If you have to create your own medical board to practice in your state, you're not swimming with the rest of the fish school.


JacobSamuel

I'm not sure why NATO isn't already using "Little Green Men" to bolster Ukraine's defense. I mean, Russia did it in Crimea, so they're developed the precedence. If Putin objects, what can he do, apologize for doing it first? It's not like NATO troops are involved, just, you know, super passionate people who want to help Ukraine that happen to be trained really well and has access to the modern toys.


Memeoligy_expert

They may be stupid, but they aren't fucking suicidal. If putin thought he could win a war against any NATO country he would have attacked NATO a decade ago. He is FULLY aware that Russia is nothing but a sleeping kitten compared NATO. Russia will never attack NATO on purpose.


EquivalentTown8530

Nato aircraft bombing Moscow....oh joy oh bliss 🤣


Atomic-Decay

We haven’t just been sending older weapons. Lots of new tech has landed in Ukraine.


HypeKo

It will only take a few large bombs on tactical Russian military complexes and uncle vladdie will either commit suicide, be disposed or (unlikely) abdicate


Short-Resource915

I know! “Please don’t throw me into that briar patch” “Please don’t step a foot into Lithuania.”


kenpachi212

Fuck around and find out I guess


Humble_Conclusion_92

Seems like Russia is doing a good job in getting more Lithuanians to join the foreign legion. Russia should do this to every European country. France, Germany, Italy etc, lol


Justux205

Russia - we are revoking your independence Lithuania - Oh no, anyways


GhostOfHelsinki

go ahead russia.. try to invade lithuania


TheMechanicSupporter

Dare touching European soil or our people and Barbarossa will look like a border skirmish compared to our reaction.


gigglemaniac

Isn't Ukraine European?


[deleted]

[удалено]


thewreckingyard

As a person living in North America, but not in America - We’d prefer to NOT be known as Americans, please & thanks.


TheMechanicSupporter

Yes and I'm itching to make them pay already, but the Baltic states are already part of the EU. It would be a direct assault on the Union. Once Ukraine gets in we'll be one in the same like with Lithuania.


Tehnomaag

Russians are itching to find out how it feels if the opponent has actually an air superiority and sensors capable of finding out under which blanket, exactly, they are hiding because they forgot to turn off bluetooth in their phone.


vic_lupu

Guess war is never a solution… just isolate them, and it will fall as the Soviet Union.


Smokeyvalley

Good idea. After their asses are thoroughly kicked out of Ukraine.


Artistic_Ad_1083

That genie is out of the bottle. Russia has no say over Lithuania's independence, unless they want to take it over like they are trying with Ukraine. NATO might have something to say about that.


Full-Oil-5947

You may not to pay attention to mental ilness people some time, but there is a time to call an abulance. I believe its time do it :) if they understand a force language maybe its time to do it..


Bind_Moggled

Russia has never had a neighbour that they didn’t try to invade.


RoundMedium

Russia: Lithuania, we are revoking your independence Lithuania: oh snap! So what you’re saying is…..You’re about to fuck around and find out?


KimJongUnsArsehole

It’s almost as if Russia said ‘what else can we do to make sure that most of the world hates us?’


VikingsGunnaVike

I still don't get why communist regimes of past and present are accepted as governments and not viewed as unlawful occupations. Don't want to piss off daddy Xi, I guess


Large-Educator-5671

I mean Russia is nationalist not communist now. And there really ain’t any more left outside of China, who is also a bit more of a nationalist capitalist enemy, and N Korea who is a feudal kingdom. Vietnam is our ally and other than that they really all gone


VikingsGunnaVike

I don't disagree, but the mentality is the same, even in some of the average citizens. I was just thinking that I don't know of any cases (but then again, I'm not a history expert) where a country has retroactively declared communism a non-valid form of government (not to be confused with condemning past regimes, that has been done officially by several states). That would mean not recognizing such a state's government, institutions, contributions, no trade agreements, no embassies and so on - basically have no relations whatsoever. It would be interesting to see.


Large-Educator-5671

Ye I think the problem now is rampant nationalism and pride amoung nations like Russia who never truly lost in a military sense. In their POV the Soviets were collapsed from the outside and they hate the west for that bc the Soviet days were more prosperous than the mess of the federation. The Germans on the other hand suffered through the separation and full rebuilding, so their view was able to be adjusted to the modern democratic world


[deleted]

Because it’s anti-democratic, for one.


Pfak-Tschobeiden

>I was just thinking that I don't know of any cases (but then again, I'm not a history expert) where a country has retroactively declared communism a non-valid form of government (not to be confused with condemning past regimes, that has been done officially by several states). It actually *has* happened in several states. Including, of all places, Ukraine: >In April 2015, the Verkhovna Rada passed a law banning communist and Nazi symbols following worsening tensions with Russia. Earlier, in 2012, the city of Lviv in Western Ukraine banned the public display of communist symbols.On 17 December 2015, all communist parties were officially banned in Ukraine. Singing or playing the former anthem of the Soviet Union or any other former anthems of the Soviet Republics is punishable with a sentence of up to five years in prison. In July 2019, the Constitutional Court upheld the law, **equating communism to Nazism.**


VikingsGunnaVike

Romania has a similar law but it's more lenient


AskALettuce

What possible benefit do Russians think this could have? Seriously, do they think that Lithuania or other European countries will see this and thing "Oh, we'd better stop fighting Russia now"? How could Putin or any of his supporters think that this would help them?


Mister_Taco_Oz

They don't. This is a show for the people inside Russia and a _bit_ of a threat to Lithuania since the Baltics have sent so much aid to Ukraine. Mostly it seems to be for the people inside the country rather than outside.


AskALettuce

Do the people of Russia care about Lithuania? And do the Duma, care what the people think? If they said, "Free vodka if Lithuania is part of Russia" then people might care.


Mister_Taco_Oz

They don't care about Lithuania. They care about their government and what actions they are taking. Again, this is less about Lithuania specifically and more about the Russian government and their image with the Russian people. And yes, image is important; a compliant people are much easier to keep down.


RunTheBull13

I think Lithuania should send in some peace keepers to Ukraine. Protect the border with Belarus. They can't let Russia win.


EricEricEricEri

I revoke recognition of Ruscists being human. Now I consider them a sub-human species


Cloudberrymaster

Putin has started WW3.


Common-Leg7605

Is Russia taking shit loads of drugs just now….madness


rjward1775

The Duma should vote to annex the US as a province of Russia.


RedBlueTundra

Russia- “We no longer recognise your independence” Lithuania- “Oh no! Anyway….”


Intrepid_Map2296

I think that's called declaring war ...ball in your court now. .Europe


dan_dares

russia can declare anything that it wants, but when the first shell lands on NATO land, they'll realise what modern war against superior forces actually means.


DeStressing245

That’s got to be some strong Vodka over there to get them that delusional


Hot_Pepper_Raider

How should Lithuania respond? Molon Labe


guido_lois

I don’t understand the logic of increasing hostilities to even more countries. Oh wait.. there is no logic. It’s Russia.


GNS1991

First thought: So, Zhirinovski came back from the grave? Second thought: Is this because Lithuanian MPs declared Russia a terrorist state lol.


rbur70x7

Russia standing with Nazi Germany and honoring the Molotov Ribbentrop pact


ImmediateAd7802

Russia reacting like an abusive husband (in a forced marriage situation) that got divorced. then later tried to get his ex-wife back without her agreement Russia, go fck yourself


DangerousLocal5864

I'm about 100 percent sure they legally cannot do that


Luminox

Come on Russia, revoke the sale of Alaska to the US... or do you just threaten places and people you THINK you're stronger than?


SwiftSnips

All for show. Theres not a chance in hell this happens.


Tehnomaag

Mmmmm .. seems these muppets think that they are bit short of "finding out" after trying fucking around Ukraine. I'm pretty sure all these NATO weapons kill just as hard when manned by NATO soldiers. Thing is NATO is defensive alliance but there is a fair few members with an axe to grind. So actually going and poking that particular bear in the eye would be pretty stupid thing for Russia to do.


SirFartlord

Lithuania: oh no....anyway


HypeKo

How to shoot yourself in the foot 101, when you're fighting a war you can't sustain : make more enemies that have even more powerful allies


hdufort

And what sort of authority does the Russian duma has to revoke another country's independence exactly? 🤔 The Russians can barely manage their own country without making it fall apart.


GrimborX

Russia has 37 million males between ages 15 and 54 and about 15% of those are scattered over places like Siberia and don't even identify as Russian. This population has been steadily shrinking and suffers a staggering rate of alcoholism. Putin and his stooges are managing to kill the best of the Russian population at a rate of about 300 daily. If he touches a NATO country, that number will go up exponentially. China meanwhile is waiting patiently for Russia to finally collapse, then, Russia's true and greatest threat will swarm in. Hell, China has an insane number of tanks deployed near the Siberian border, just waiting...


nostrilcrust

“You can point that fucking finger up your ass!”


Pleasant-Cricket-129

I was born January 13, 1991.. another headline from that day was ‘Congress Okays Bush’s War Declaration’ and Operation Desert Storm started days later.


omahalibrarian

Nothing noteworthy happened on my birthday, but my dad was born on Nov. 1, 1956, the same day as the Soviet invasion of Hungary


firehorn123

I think it is happening…


Lord_Sluggo

S to Prussian Agression


randompersonwith

Welp here we go again


evildachshund79

It's just a smoke screen to hide they are getting their ass kicked in Ukraine.


[deleted]

Fuck Putin and his stooges in the Duma


Extension-Format

The idiots barely even gotten anywhere w/Ukraine. How do they suppose they are going to fight two countries?


finsken

You mean 31 countries?


Extension-Format

Im lowkey starting to wonder if something did kick of with the west vs russia, im not too sure China, the Arab states and all his other allies will back him…


pinetreesgreen

This war would turn on a dime if UK and US jets and bombers get deployed. I'd say Russia isn't that stupid, but....


BloodletterUK

Orc moment


Zealousideal_Taro881

Anyone else read this is as Prussian Agression


NoBagelNoBagel-

Good luck with that.


lemmika

Ok, fine. Now, who gives a shit about ruz duma?


Salt_Recognition_266

Russian government having a difficult time adjusting its narcissistic ( Big Brother) tendencies with proclamations that carry about as much weight as its against the law to pull that tag of your pillow. Ok...Americans be courteous explaining that tag to the folks who are wondering what the hell.... Help me out!🙏


Single-Recognition-7

Xerces: Laydown your arms. Leonidis : Come and get them. Duma to Lithuania: Laydown your arms. Lithuania: Come and get them. By the time the Ukrainians are done with you we will be invading Russia.


TheOneDudeFromHell

If that gets passed, has two possible outcomes are possible: 1. War [war ending] 2. Russia getting Lithuania by letting Lithuania get Russia [blursed ending à HOI4]


Grammulka

But somehow Ukraine not acknowledging Crimea or LPR/DPR going independent was fine


Canonip

Lol


ThanksToDenial

Revoking the recognition of independence of a country that has been well established to be independent internationally, is very different from recognizing the independence of foreign backed insurrectionist groups that may or may not even reflect the views of the population in their occupied areas, or foreign held "referendums" in an area within another independent country with no international and/or domestic oversight. Come back, when a joint venture of UN, Russia and Ukraine have held impartial referendums in said regions, counting only votes of the original inhabitants of said regions. As in, UN holds the referendum, and Russia and Ukraine observe.


Grammulka

yeah, that one was kinda stupid on my side. To be fair, I still think this is one of those weird populist law drafts, like the one to return the USSR flag or something


golpedeserpiente

That didn't stop the West to recognize Kosovo as independent. Now that precedent will take its toll.


ThanksToDenial

You may want to read about Kosovo a bit more... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo Kosovo, is equally as interesting as it is a unique case. Officially it is under the Transitional UN Administration and KFOR, as part of UN security council resolution 1244, which is still legally binding to this day. But many have recognised their independence after they declared it in 2008, true (including ICJ, who ruled it to be in compliance with international law). 97 of the 193 members of the UN, to be precise. Still, the situation remains... Extremely complicated. You better read about it yourself, I am not the best at explaining it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Kosovo I'd say Ukraine may not be completely opposed to a similar solution on a temporary basis, if it means stopping the blood being shed. But I'm not Ukraine, so I can't say for sure. I bet they wouldn't like the idea, since it would not quarantee a result in their favor. But it may be within the realm of possibilities they would consider. Russia, on the other hand, is probably against it, completely. They would never agree to it unless there was some major setback in current hostilities. I do know that some geopolitical analysts think something similar may be the best course of action to end the war. As in, giving the UN administration rights to the regions temporarily, until fair Referendums under international oversight can be conducted, based on the original populations in said regions, before any conflicts displaced people, or brought other people, into said regions. Thus, affirming that the right of people to self-determination is upheld... Then we need to look at the population of Crimea, mainly the Russians who have moved there after the occupation, and take them into consideration somehow in a fair way under international law... Yeah, it'll get equally complicated to ensure such an arrangement can be brought to a internationally legal solution... Just like Kosovo. Sadly, geopolitics and international law are the polar opposite of simple. I'd lean towards Kosovo being independent thou. Since the declaration of independence was born out of international oversight and the will of the people. They exercised their right to self-determination, and it was made sure by international, impartial entities. But obviously, not everyone yet agrees. The world is, quite literally, divided on the subject.


golpedeserpiente

Good bot.


ThanksToDenial

..I'm not a bot? Just someone with way too much time on their hands! You have no idea how much useless knowledge I have crammed into my nogging about various weird and complicated subjects. This subject I have mainly learned through reading Martti Ahtisaari's proposals on solving the Kosovo Question. I highly recommend looking into it. I personally think they were pretty good. Russia just didn't like them... To no ones surprise. They threatened to undermine the perceived power of the state, by shifting the precedence towards the self-determination of the people. Russia generally is diametrically opposed to such precedences.


golpedeserpiente

Yeah, I've read that "Kosovo is a unique case" declaration too. It's unique because (some) in the West said so and think they're above the law. The self-determination principle holds over the territorial integrity principle only on cases where the people in question is native to the territory. It doesn't apply to implanted peoples or migrants. So, countries observant of this detail [objected](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_independence_precedent) the move, and Russia warned about its consequences. Russians from the Donbass, unlike Albanians in Kosovo, are natives to the land, so they're using the Kosovo precedent only for the collective defense clause, not the "unique case" exception. They're entitled to independence and Ukrainians can only oppose by force. I don't like it but they totally got to the point, so now the West will have to deal with their own methods applied on them.


ThanksToDenial

This current situation is exactly what Russia hoped out the Kosovo situation, most likely. It doesn't erode the perceived order of things they prefer, and gives them an excuse to support, and even help create, separatist movements. But your premise is flawed however. The right of self-determination extends to everyone, no matter who, no matter where. The question only is, what form it takes. Also, Albanians in Kosovo are the ethnic majority. And it is not like 1,9 million of them just immigrated there, most of them are native to the area, when considering they were born there. They have as much right to that land as say... Finnish Swedes have a right to Finland's land. Their self-determination is mostly realized with the fact that they have their own political party and representation in the administrative functions of the government, and the government itself. And everything else. Hell, Swedish is the second official language in Finland. There are, however, several contradictions in several treaties and international laws on the application of self-determination. It alone makes this an interesting subject. I personally hold that the form of which the end result takes should be determined on a case-by-case basis. In fact, if we go by the very first precedence of this what comes to internationally set precedences by an organisation representing various nations of earth... League of Nations, 1920. The issue of Åland islands right to self-determination. It was solved based on their unique circumstances. As it should have been. And the issue is open for renegotiation, if they so wish. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination More about a related concept here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy The thing is, Russia is breaking this right. On multiple levels. And it is not the first time. In it, is included the right to free choice to one's own acts, without outside compulsion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is not only against Ukraine's right of self-determination _and_ territorial integrity, but also against the right to self-determination of Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk. There is currently a direct outside force compelling them to act. That being... Russia. Russia is the one that escalated this conflict. And there is several other issues with this situation what comes to self-determination. They are actually listed in that wiki, if you want to read it. It boils down to "Russia is dicking around in other peoples business". We also saw Russia ignoring this right during the Chechen wars, during their conflict with Georgia, etc. Russia just can't leave well enough alone, can it?


golpedeserpiente

> gives them an excuse to support separatist movements. Russia doesn't need excuses to behave as an imperial power. They will reserve themselves that right as much as other superpowers do. It seems the West didn't get the memo. > But your premise is flawed however. The right of self-determination extends to everyone, no matter who, no matter where. The question only is, what form it takes. Also, Albanians in Kosovo are the ethnic majority. And it is not like 1,9 million of them just immigrated there, most of them are native to the area, when considering they were born there. Totally immigrated there, and very recently. You are mixing the concepts "people" and "person", don't bother to insist, you don't get the meaning. > There are, however, several contradictions in several treaties and international laws on the application of self-determination. It alone is makes this an interesting subject. There are no contradictions, powerful countries choose to ignore the international law that the rest is expected to follow. > I personally hold that the form of which the end result takes should be determined on a case-by-case basis. That's because the West pushes for a "Rules-based world order" instead of a "Law-based world order". They like to mix and match coercion and law according their interests. This war is the waking call that those rules no longer apply. > In fact, if we go by the very first precedence of this what comes to internationally set precedences... League of Nations, 1920. The issue of Åland islands right to self-determination. It was solved based on their unique circumstances. No, it was resolved according to the principle of territorial integrity. Re-read your sources, please. > The thing is, Russia is breaking this right. On multiple levels. And it is not the first time. You nailed it. > In it, is included the right to free choice to one's own acts, without outside compulsion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is not only against Ukraine's right of self-determination and territorial integrity, but also against the right to self-determination of Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk. You keep mixing stuff. Neither Crimea, Donbass nor Luhansk (a part of the Donbass basin) have the right of self-determination nor territorial integrity. Strictly speaking, those aren't rights but principles. And those are not peoples, are territories and/or political entities. Ukrainians, Tatars, Russians (from the Donbass region) and others are the peoples involved in the conflict. > There is currently a direct outside force compelling them to act. That being... Russia. Russia is the one that escalated this conflict. Yes, but keep in mind that Ukraine didn't respect the Minsk Agreements it signed. Russia was not a party on those agreements, so nobody can argue it was a forced one. Ukraine increased the attacks on its own citizens after agreeing to de-escalate. Russia could then denounce ethnic aggression against the Russian people and offer support in the form of "collective self-defense", another creative innovation from the Kosovo precedent the West gifted to Russia. > We also saw Russia ignoring this right during the Chechen wars, during their conflict with Georgia, etc. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_independence_precedent#Kosovo_establishes_a_dangerous_precedent): Russian President Vladimir Putin described the declaration of independence by Kosovo as a "terrible precedent that will come back to hit the West in the face".[14] > Russia just can't leave well enough alone, can it? Russia was gifted new wonderful tools. The West should meditate the maxim "Nemo auditur propriam turpitudinem allegans". Cheers.


ThanksToDenial

You have not clearly looked into any of my arguments apparently. If you read the actual _process_ of the negotiations of Ålands case, you would notice that they had actually requested a referendum to secede and join Sweden. However, Finland had just gained it's independence, and had growing nationalist streak, which caused significant anti-sweden sentiments to form. The Islanders were, in a practical sense, swedes. Finland would have been more than happy to let them secede, were it not for the fact that the Islands are a strategic location, from which any foreign power could threaten the one of the most populated areas of Finland, that of the city of Turku and the surrounding areas. Not to mention it is the second most important area what comes to controlling the flow of trade in the Baltic sea, only rivaled by Götland. To grant their call of secession, Finland would have risked it's own continued right to self-determination, by having the potentially hostile neighbor use said areas against them, despite the islands demilitarisation status under the Treaty of Paris, (which, btw, still holds, and Russia is a signatory). Thus, the problem was solved by letting Finland to officially keep the Islands, at the cost of giving the Islands one of the best deals for autonomy ever made in history. Seriously, look it up. They are exempt from draft, have free reign of their own governance, culture, everything, and are demilitarised, yet in a time of war, Finland is still obligated to come to their defence. If you want to put a name on what they are, they are a mostly independent protectorate of Finland. There was also the question of who the islands belong to historically, which, when compared to all the other issues with it, is just the simple way to explain the complex background of the issue. To your comment about "the west"... Don't confuse the rest of with the US. They like to play cowboy a lot. Most of us stick to ourselfs, and try to fix the things the US breaks. I mean, who do you think took in all those refugees after the US decided to destabilize the middle-east into a permanent humanitarian crisis in it's search for oil, or proxy wars with Russia, or just plain stupidity? Europe seems to unfortunately have the dubious honor of trying to fix what the big boys keep breaking. As for your comment about "rules and law". You are wrong, and right at the same time. Again, the concept of "the west"... Not a unified force. However, Europe tries to uphold, and has been instrumental in developing, a system you may know as "rule of law". Imagine it like the "Theory of Everything". It will never be complete, because the environment it needs to be applied in is in constant shift. But it tries to be fair and just for all. For this to have any hope of succeeding however, someone should reign in a few bigger boys who keep fucking up everything for the rest of humanity. These big boys, who think they alone have a right to play in this sandbox, and every time we try to do anything meaningful to improve things for all, they use their "big boy right to say no" on everyones behalf, based on their own self-interest and greed. As for the failure of the Minsk agreements... Have you read how they failed? Because you should. It wasn't only the failure of Ukraine to adhere to them. Both DPR and LPR never even truly attempted to adhere to their parts of the deal. As evidenced by the elections in DPR and LPR in november of 2014, that went against both the spirit and the letter of the agreement, as evaluated by OSCE, who was overseeing the situation. Not to mention every one and their mother was breaking ceasefires left and right. And then DPR decided that they don't want to adhere to the Minsk protocol at all anymore, in January of 2015, blatantly breaking the agreement. It was DPR and LPR who broke the first one, and refused to adhere to it's protocols. They were the ones who went on the offensive in January 2015. So the failure of the first one, lies solely on their shoulders. And then we arrive at Minsk 2. Putin tries to delay it, so the now on the offensive separatists have time to capture key areas which they would control under the new agreement. So Russia sabotashing things from the get go. Not a good start... And when they finally implemented the ceasefire, some of the separatist decided, by themselves, that it doesn't apply to "this and that" and continued fighting. And when they finally did take a break, and Ukraine tried to adhere to the Minsk 2, giving the separatist limited self-rule, Russia decided that it wasn't good enough, claiming some bullshit about "it being a vote to say Russia is occupying the regions". (which may have actually been quite close to the truth, when we look deeper into the Malaysia flight 17 investigation). Aaaand then the separatists decided "nah, screw the deal" again. You know what, read the rest yourself, you know how to read, you find the sources where they usually are, so you can read the details: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements And Russia definitely was party to them. I mean, they are signatories on it. And were quite literally backing the separatists with weapons, funding and political support. And even men. I mean sure, they have "plausible deniability". The same plausible deniability the US used to fund and arm separatist groups in the middle east. As in, we all know, we even have the evidence, no one can just bring the people responsible to justice because... Well... Russia brings up nukes, and US uses sanctions like Russia would love to use their nukes. Also, you say I keep mixing stuff, and that the separatists areas are not "peoples"... Please tell me, how does the UN charter define the term "people"? Oh, it doesn't? Well color me shocked. I mean, my source literally told you that, but you chose to ignore it. As well as everything else the sources said, that you couldn't twist into pro-russian point of view. Very disingenuous of you. And let me guess, you read the wiki only, but don't bother clicking on... You know... The primary sources and references? To continue our conversation, so I don't have to explain simple things to you and almost quote the stuff you want to conveniently ignore, I want you to read about international human rights and humanitarian laws, and read through the UN charter. Or at least flip through it, I probably can't expect people to be obsessive about gathering information like I do. I'm sure you don't have infinite time to research your arguments for a debate on Reddit... I do, but that is because I have no life. Oh, almost forgot. Read the investigation report of the Malaysian flight 17 while you are flipping through the others. You know... Russian surface-to-air missile that was used to shoot it down, and how it was tracked to where it came from and how, and surprise surprise, it, and the launch system, was directly loaned from the Russian military! And even came with handy "former Russian military" personnel that knew how to operate it! Very convenient!


Large-Educator-5671

So your response to a well thought out a factually backed argument in return is to say WElL they can do it bc they bug and stronk, and the west has created all problems in the world. The west is not all good and the east is not bad. But it is avoidance of responsibility like this that allows tyrants like Putin to justify their actions. Everyone in the world is a human fucking being and they all have the right to say what they are, be that nationality sexuality or whatever. Also consider that Russia broke their treaty w ukraine that promised protection and no war when they handed over the nukes •_•


Barsy124

Imagine The US takes over Moscow tomorrow and says the people of Moscow voted to be part of US, would you acknowledge that ? Because that is what happened in Crimea and LDPR.


Grammulka

You think people there would rather have it stay a part of Ukraine? LDPR might be debatable, but Crimea is out of question. And Moscow has nothing to dowith the US. If Moscow population was like 70% americans, that would've been a valid comparison. The majority of those people had Russian parents and grandparents, and speak Russian language since their birth. For very long time since 1991 until late 2013/early 2014, despite Ukrainian politicians rarely being pro-Russian, for people living in those regions it was no big difference in which country they live, so they didn't actually care. Obviously there were pro-Russian powers that organized the events, but saying people were against it? No way.


Barsy124

Aha, and all the Ukrainian and Tatar refugees that arrived in my school in 2014 wanted to be a part of RuNAZZIa, for sure. Especially after evidences of evictions. Tatars would love to be part of a country again, that fucked them in 1944 and then again in 2014. And ruZZia still does not recognize it as genocide


Smokeyvalley

Mass deportations (plus starvation, executions) of the primary local ethnic populations, and mass immigration of ethnic russian nationals to take their place- it's been the imperial russian way of 'russifying' lands that don't belong to them, for centuries.


Mister_Taco_Oz

Yep. Because unlike Russia, Ukraine actually does get a say in whether those regions are independent, and they used to be part of Ukraine. They are separatist movements supported and propped up by a foreign military power to break off from Ukraine. Meanwhile, Russia never actually had Lithuania (at least, not since 1918 in the Russian Empire), they have no say in whether Lithuania is independent or not, and Lithuania is recognized by a vast majority of countries in the world and has a seat in the UN. Quite a few differences I'm afraid.


omahalibrarian

Ukraine not recognizing the independence of Luhansk and Donetsk is bad but somehow Russia refusing to allow full Chechnyan independence was fine and Russia continuing to reject Kosovoan independence is fine. Am I doing that right?


Smokeyvalley

You've got the idea. Anything's good for russia if they say it is, but they won't allow it elsewhere.