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Available-Concert732

I was almost buying that when I read “Arkhangelsk republic.. belongs to Norway”..wait what? When did this happen? That’s some solid BS.


Hezekieli

As a Finnish I suggest you check the map for the borders of Finland. Russia never conquered those parts colored on grey blue. Those areas have been Finland's ever since we gained our independence. But there are other parts on Karelian isthmus near St Petersburg and Petsamo by the Arctic Ocean that belonged to Finland before peace treaty of 1940.


ThanksToDenial

Yeap. And also, we would only consider having Petsamo back, and only because it gives us a port into the Arctic sea. And only consider. Most likely still gonna say no thanks. Lot of work for little gain. Russia can keep the rest in any case. We took the best parts with us when we evacuated the area anyway. That being the people. The areas are now full of Russians, and would need so much work in the terms of infrastructure that it isn't worth it for us.


rocygapb

I love Finns’ attitude: “we took the best parts… the people!”


ThanksToDenial

It was the people who made Karjala, Karjala. In fact, they still do. The rest, we'll get back one bottle at a time. Explanation of the joke I just made, for those who are not well versed in Finnish culture and history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karjala


Hezekieli

I would like Viborg back. Russia is doing nothing with it but it would give us a waterway to Saimaa. It's not like Viborg really threatens St Petersburg.


gigglemaniac

Looking at how Ukraine is doing, I'd say that you might be able to just take it back, and Russia wouldn't be able to send any more 17 year-olds to stop you.


sgt_snorkel

That said, I’d really want Vyborg/Viborg/Viipuri back, regardless of the cost. I believe Jeltson offered us Karelia after the wall went down, and we said no. So be it. But just this city would be nice if the Russians gave back to us. When you look at an old map and see all those old street names in Finnish or Swedish … If nothing else, it becomes so obvious the Russians have always been like this, always terrorizing their neighbors. It’s nothing new.


Baroo56709

I just learned about it yesterday accidentally through the Säkkijärven polkka song. I believe that Finland should get back viipuri district and let the border be the river once again.


GapOS

United Caucasus would be the 2nd coming of the Balkan/Yugoslavian Wars


JosephRohrbach

I don't mean to be unkind, but this is very much a Paradox game player's understanding of how the world works. This kind of collapse is quite silly and utterly unrealistic (in what world are ethnically Russian principalities conquered centuries ago going to split from a Russian polity just because they technically used to be different entities?). Geopolitics of any kind appear to be completely ignored, as there's very little rational reason that four separate states would be set up east of the Urals given how strategically and economically weak they'd be. Similarly, there's little reason to believe that Norway, a liberal democracy, would have any interest whatsoever in random and almost certainly unstable expansionism into Russia. If you're playing a game with simplified parameters that encourage expansion at any cost, then sure that works, but in the real world expansion of that kind would be incredibly difficult and contentious. Imagine the nightmare of trying to account for a population increase that would be in the order of *25%*. All of these people have to be surveyed, integrated into legal and institutional systems, and so forth - it could never be worth the cost for Norway. It also appears to have much too concrete an idea of exactly how spaces would be divided up and what they would be named - how can we know that one bit of Siberia will call itself the "Siberian Republic" and another the "Far Eastern Republic"? These factors are incredibly hard to predict ahead of time, even when a collapse of this kind is likely - which I don't think it is in this case. Neither is it clear why borders are drawn in such a precise manner. Finally, I think there's some naïveté about both the justness and good sense of something like this. Even if it were realistic to implement - which it isn't, objectively - it would almost certainly be against the wishes of a very large segment of the involved populations. Is this ethical? It'd also almost certainly collapse into strife very rapidly, causing considerable avoidable suffering, which seems at best counterproductive. Again, in games in which civilians are just numbers, this doesn't matter, but we're talking about the real world here, in which civilians are humans and humans matter.


truthandloveforever

You're not being unkind, the person that posted this is a child that doesn't understand the world or geopolitics. Or history for that matter.


JosephRohrbach

Indeed, but I generally like to be kind in my phrasing etc.. Never hurt anyone. It would be justified not to be, though, I'll put it that way.


manVsPhD

Even Crusader Kings has title drift after a hundred years or so


pm_me_old_maps

When I started reading and saw the comments (belongs to X) I snorted. By that same logic so does Finland belong to Russia. Or Poland. Or all former soviet republics. It's the same logic through which Putin thinks of the world. It was once ours so we want it back No territory belongs to another country. It is for the people inhabiting that territory to decide.


FencePanel1

Swedish empire mate


ThanksToDenial

As a Finn, I'd rather take that than Russian rule. ...but the Swedes better not take any offence when I go all Narodnya Volya on the King! Hakkaa Päälle Suomen Poika!


KennyT87

"Pohjan poika"


sgt_snorkel

There was nothing really wrong with the Swedish rule, and there wasn’t a Finnish state to exchange it for. It’s not like Sweden ever conquered an existing Finnish nation - there was no Finnish state before 1917. I’m just glad Finland gained its sovereignty when it did, thanks to some very plucky parliamentarians in 1917. It could have gone either way with Lenin at the helm, and it nearly did.


Stanislovakia

What is Narodnya mean in Finnish? In Russian it means national (Narodnya pestnya = national/peoples song) and I'm wondering if it is a loan word?


ThanksToDenial

It doesn't mean anything in Finnish. I am referring to the organisation that called itself Narodnaya Volya, that assassinated Tsar Alexander the Second.


Stanislovakia

You know makes sense, didn't really think about Volya also sounding like a Russian word lol. Anyway thank you!


ThanksToDenial

You are very welcome! I highly recommend reading about them, it is an interesting piece of history!


Stanislovakia

I've read about the Narodniki, just didn't put two and two together with the words in English lol


pm_me_old_maps

Or that yeah


KyivComrade

Indeed, what is this "belongs to Russia" nonsense? Finland as we know it came to be under Swedish leadership should be more appropriately called East-Sweden or perhaps F.S.R. Finland (Former Swedish Republic) /s.


ThanksToDenial

As Finn, we never belonged to Russia anyway. No, seriously. Literally. The Tzar happened to also be the Duke of Finland. We were not part of Russia, we only bowed to a person who wore both the title of Duke of Finland and Tsar of Russia. Of course, in the grand scheme of things this is only a technicality. But a fun fact anyway. ...You could make the argument in the case of Sweden thou. We were part of their empire once upon a time. But... We were also an independent Kingdom in 1917, for about a year or so officially. So we can make the argument we are subjects of some random German dude who is the descendant of Frederick Charles Louis Constantine, the original King of Finland.


pm_me_old_maps

I know that. But it seems whoever made the map didn't go through that same rigorous historical geo-archeology. Like saying that Archangel'sk should go to Norway seems to have more to do with geographical proximity than any kind of cultural, ethnic or historical ties to the region.


sgt_snorkel

Well, the prince dude never showed up. So were we really a kingdom for a while? I remain skeptical.


geltance

this whole subreddit ignores geopolitics :D


Mission-Tutor-6361

If he were a Paradox player he wouldn’t have done Tannu Tuva dirty like that.


[deleted]

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JosephRohrbach

I'm just going to comment that I think it's deeply troubling to "have dreams" of genocide. Modern Russians are, by and large, not responsible for the policies of the 18th century Tsars, and the descendants of Siberian settlers of the same period certainly don't deserve displacement from their homes or mass killing because of what their ancestors may or may not have done. I'd really, really want to meditate on why you fantasize about ethnic cleansing if I were you.


ThanksToDenial

They are not wrong about some of it. I mean, they wishing genocide on people is wrong as hell, but they are right about the history of some of those regions. As an example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_the_Ingrian_Finns I am a descendant of Ingrian Finns, at least in part. I don't want the area my ancestors inhabited. Don't care. As we say in Finland, Pitäkööt tunkkinsa. But there is no denying a genocide took place there, and many of my ancestors were either killed or displaced. The area is also now largely inhabited by Russians. But yeah. We don't wish ill towards regular people who did not participate in atrocities, or even necessarily know they happened. That's just wrong.


JosephRohrbach

To be sure! I'm not at all disagreeing that some pretty horrible things happened in Russian history, a good few perpetrated by common Russians and not (just) elites. I was just disagreeing with the conclusion brought out by that - I think it's just as reprehensible to suggest a genocide of Russians for what was done by some of their forefathers, as to suggest a genocide of French for what was done by theirs in Algeria. There are conversations to be had about culpability and historic justice, though, as you point out. They're just morally and strategically complicated, unlike the solution of genocide which is both morally and strategically simple - an awful idea! But we agree on this, so that's fine.


Muskwatch

especially considering that the majority of modern "settlers" of siberia were sent there at gunpoint as well. I grew up on stories of families being sent to siberia, three quarters of them dying on the way or in the first winter, and always just more and more being sent. These were people the government wanted out of the way.


[deleted]

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Individual_Break6067

C'mon man, with that logic we'd have to evict the entirety of the Americas and give the land back to the natives or perhaps to whoever was there before the natives. I think that time washes over everything and like sand wears stones, heals the wounds of history. People don't think in centuries and millenia, they think in lifetimes. If a wrong cannot be made right in the span of a lifetime, too many threads will become interwoven to make possible a fix that does not harm yet more lives of people who just want to live and have kids and grandkids. Today a wrong is being done and the time to fix it is now. This is clear. What some Russian tsar did two centuries ago, not so clear anymore how such a thing is to be righted. Certainly not by killing people as you seem to propose.


fulknerraIII

So you're mad about Russians admittedly terrible behavior, and in response you want to do the same thing back to them. I don't understand this, Genocide is Genocide. How are you any different if you're murdering women and kids too. By that logic Germany and Japan would no longer exist, as we should have killed everyone after the war.


Haunting_Paper_9410

My dude, what you're saying is the equivalant to saying you wish all white peole in America were ethnically cleansed in order to give the land back to the Native Americans. It has been hundreds of years, these people are in their homeland, even if it was not their ancestors homeland.


[deleted]

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FencePanel1

This guy needs to pick up a book or maybe listen to some camandray


CFlower240

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dzhastin

Reported for blatant ethnic hatred.


kamiloss14

You do not sound responsible at all.


Daotar

Idk. The history of central Asia would seem to contradict these points. Lots of those countries had been oppressed by Russia for decades or centuries, yet they still emerged as independent nations. Ukraine is literally an example of this (though not from Central Asia obviously). By your logic, during the several centuries of Russian domination, Ukrainians should have lost any sense of what it means to be "Ukrainian", yet they clearly didn't. As such, the sort of local political identities clearly don't just always vanish with time as you assume. Remember that a lot of people in Russia resent being governed from Moscow. They may not think of themselves as resurrecting some ancient nation, but that doesn't mean they don't want present day independence from Moscow domination.


JosephRohrbach

They emerged as independent nations with borders pretty much exactly corresponding to Soviet administrative divisions, yes. There is also some pre-existing rationale in most of these cases - linguistic difference (Turkic languages aren't Indo-European, Ukrainian is very distinct from Russian) or historic states, like Lithuania. It's not a case of random emergence "from the ashes", but a contingent series of events. Broadly, I think it's important to remember that nations aren't real things, they're imagined communities. Paraphrasing Gellner, if nations have objective force, it must be incredibly weak - there are far more potential nations than actual ones. As such, I'm not assuming that local political identities vanish, or don't vanish, because they aren't real in the first place - they're constructed in specific historical circumstances. With that in mind, I hope my arguments make more sense. The brute fact of the matter is that most of these regions have absolutely no "national movement" to speak of, so it's silly to suggest that a "Central-Russian State" will emerge without either social or strategic rationale. Contrastingly, some areas seem to have far fewer nationalist movements than I'd expect to see in a collapsing Russia - the idea that the various Caucasian nations would suddenly decide to confederate and be happy ever after is laughable, for instance. Basically, I'm not saying that nation-states have never emerged, I'm saying that there has to be some rationale behind the emergence. I just don't see that here. To illustrate, there was reason behind the emergence of the post-Soviet states. Pretty much all of them had pre-existing infrastructure and administrative frameworks, and large nationalist movements. Most of the ones on this map have absolutely no reason to "emerge", though - again, it's a very Paradox-game way of thinking to think that Yakutia is going to make itself a state. It has a very small but highly dispersed population, and would be incredibly weak. I'm not aware of its having a substantial independence movement, either. Hell, I think the best way of looking at this is just to think that a Russocentric entity *has* collapsed recently, the USSR. During that time, none of these "nations" made a shot at independence in a scenario of total, and internationally supported, disintegration. Most of them declared brief sovereignty before almost immediately joining the Russian Federation. If they weren't going to do it then, and the important rationales (geopolitical and social) haven't substantially changed since, why would most of these do it now?


Asleep-Somewhere-404

Better off with a map outlining the resources that Russia has centralised. Then you could potentially see a geopolitical argument for independence. It’s how Russia maintains control over such a range landmass. They took all the means of production. Isolate and control any external trade routes to rural regions and vetos any advances on independent infrastructure. Then keeps the regions dirt poor so they cannot invest in themselves.


WillTheWilly

I mean so is every other nation... the UK (where I live) is made of 4. The USA (The Natives Americans). At this rate, the Ukrainian propaganda here isn't about defence anymore but rather Ukraine plotting to invade. Cant fight fire with fire.


OutrageousStar5705

As an Irishman, about that...


Rompix_

The Finland part is wrong on so many different way that I can’t be bothered to start explaining how.


Longjumping_Box_5660

I don’t care what you do with Russia but do not give territories to china


Dude-in-the-backrow

I'm sure Japan doesn't want to be a small distance across a channel from China...


il_vincitore

I’m sure anti-Russia ideas are popular, but be realistic.


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TheImperios

The issue isn't really that a Russian collapse is entirely unfeasible, it is that it will cause a humanitarian and geopolitical crisis that will eclipse the current war in magnitude. Refugee waves, border conflicts, nukes leaking into the underworld. So it is in the interest of the entire world to keep Russia stable after the war, if under a different government.


Gumbulos

Looking forward to the territorial disintegration of Russia.


czl

If the nuclear arms supply Russia has gets fragmented across nations liable to fight each other the situation will be worse than now. That was a worry when USSR broke up and why the west actually tried to _prevent_ the breakup of the USSR. You may not believe this but listen to the latest interview Lex Friedman has with Stephen Kotkin -- highly recommend it: https://youtu.be/2a7CDKqWcZ0


Chillblade74

2h40min!! just give me the short version.


czl

My post above _is_ the short version.


InAmericaNumber1

SHORTER!!


OutrageousStar5705

Lot Countries. Less Nukes Per Country. They fight. World go boom boom.


egric

What exactly makes you think the new countries are going to fight each other? All the wars on the territories of the former USSR were started by none other than Russia. Post soviet republics had nukes too but nothing bad hapenned.


czl

Large empires / republics have and use ample force to impose and keep the peace between their various members. When empires / republics fall apart and that force no longer exists wars tend to happen. Why? Imagine what happens in a city when city government / police suddenly disappear - lots try to take advantage and disputes can end in knife fights or (USA) gun battles. Ditto when a country breaks up and monopoly on violence that kept all it's member regions down disappears. Nothing is guaranteed but what tends to happen when a power vacuum develops is a recurring pattern in human history.


egric

Regions of russia have their own local governments, if russia fell apart those would simply gain more power. They already have their local police and stuff. That's what hapenned in every post-soviet republic


Zagloss

As a Russian, have to say you're wrong. Our country, alas, is heavily centralized, so the breakup would likely cause another 90s, which is horrifying, to say at least. Also imagine how these new states would fight for the shitload of military equipment and natural resources. The idea itself is beautiful, but in reality it would lead to a giant worldwide crisis.


egric

Russia being heavily centralised is nothing but another reason for regions to seek independence as now all their income goes to moscow (putin's pocket, if we're being more precise). Obviously, there's going to be an economic downfall at the start but in a long run it'll be beneficial for the regions. The wars for land and resources won't happen for the same reason it didn't happen when USSR collapsed: we don't live in 18th century anymore.


Zagloss

Nah. USSR was already divided into lesser SSRs with each having unique ethnicity. Russian regions, however, are Russian in terms of population, their independence is long gone even formally, and there are no powerful separatist movements. There's simply no reason for that. What is more realistic, however, is a US-like or India-like municipal organising. I'd like to see that, and it's easier to pull off without any blood. It would also help with corruption issues (I mean less money changing hands, forgot the word lol). And the main issue is not Putin, but everyone in the system grabbing their share of money. Some here, some there, wow, where's the money. There's not one person to blame but lots, lots of them.


czl

The https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_vacuum example using city was only an analogy for a power vacuum _between_ regions of a former empire. I used the example of a city level power vacuum hoping it would be more relatable but may have caused confusion instead. When empires fall apart their regions have a tendency to 1 grab what they can (borders adjusted for resources), 2 expel or genocide those who are now "foreigners" and 3 resume age old conflicts because the force that was preventing simmering tensions between regions erupting into war is gone.


ThewFflegyy

>the west actually tried to > >prevent > >the breakup of the USSR I want whatever you are smoking sir. lex Friedman knows a lot about a lot of things, international relations and political economy are simply not among them. the dissolution of the Soviet Union was undemocratic and would not have been possible without material western support for it.


czl

Lex is an interviewer / podcaster. He interviews experts. On this topic he was speaking with https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Kotkin Possibly you are more qualified on the history of the breakup of USSR than Kotkin but I doubt it. I myself am not an expert on this topic. My post above repeats what Kotkin said. I have read his books and listened to his interviews and believe Kotkin is credible. If you have the patience I would encourage you to listen to the interview. All the best!


[deleted]

Agree. While this map is impractical, it does speak to the theme of disintegration of a troublemaker, and give opportunity to those regions who’d want to secure their own independence and sovereignty. While chaos would reign, russia would remain weak and impotent - a good outcome for most of the trouble spots in the world. However, such an outcome is sadly unlikely.


Flying_Hub

I personally as a New Zealander would love to see Russia (by the most part) become a colony of USA. So essentially still Russia, but under USA's thumb... Like NZ is to mother England. I say USA as they're the most likely to be able to pull it off financially. Although I'm certain China would have something to say about that.. I'll get back to playing "Civilizations" now


SawtoothGlitch

Why is Estonia completely flooded on that map?


squirrel-bear

This is the most ignorant map I've seen in a long time. There's not much good to say about it. It doesn't consider at all the actual people living in the country. E.g. Mari republic and other republics have been completely ignored (probably the author didn't even know about this). Also why the hell is Finnish area marked as going back to Finland, even it's already now part of Finland. This is 100% sure made by an American.


Available-Concert732

Correct guess. Americans are below zero in history and geography that it’s not their own.


Dude-in-the-backrow

Wrong guess. America is full of people the from each corner of the planet. Dont let the Trumper paint a picture for us all.... many of us know our family lineage and the history of where we came from...


geltance

i think by now Bidener is far worse than Trumper :D


ednorog

I absolutely love to speculate on the topic, but I cannot for the life of me imagine people in Rostov, Volgograd, Murmansk, Smolensk, Kursk, Yekaterinburg, Perm, Chelyabinsk, Vladivostok etc. willing to be part of anything other than Russia. As much as Russia as a state deserves severe punishment, I don't believe this is the way to go. I'm imagining something akin to the United States of Russia. Some of the minorities republics in the Urals, Siberia Caucasus and possdibly the far north of European Russia might prefer to secede, but I'm not really sure about that either.


tmxa

im russian and i absolutely hate my government but even i think this is total bs


Good_Tension5035

Speaking from an anti-Russian POV, this is bizzarre and most of these states are entirely fake. This is as bad as the division of Africa or the Middle East.


Fishfrogthefrogfish

As someone who has just finished an undergraduate degree in Central and East European Studies with a strong emphasis on Security Studies, this is a batshit crazy idea and quite dangerous tbh. The fracturing of a nation like Russia, no matter how diverse it is ethnically, could potentially be the catalyst for numerous conflicts and thousands if not hundreds of thousands of deaths. The break up of the Soviet Union was bad enough, let alone the hypothetical break up of the Russian Federation… 😕


KerbalEnginner

As much as I would love to see Russia neutered in this way I must agree with you. It would also amplify Chinas influence and world would have way bigger problems.


Zeepelinlover

Ok and? Weak russia is peaceful russia, since its Expansionist monster that should be dismantled. To ensure peace in europe we need to finish that monster for future generations


Fishfrogthefrogfish

I feel like you don’t fully understand the consequences of a nation such as Russia fracturing. Yeah it’s great fantasise about the disestablishment of an authoritarian system but not at the cost of thousands and with the potential for China to fill that void. There are greater things at stake than just someone wanting to see the end of an expansionist and authoritarian state through the fracturing of numerous multiethnic subregions that have had a history of instability and violence. Not to mention the social, economic, and security cost of such an event.


Code-BetaV2

What no understanding of geopoltics and propaganda does to mf


Zeepelinlover

You are westerner, so geopolitcs rules may sound good for you but for central s geopolitics has the same meaning as a betrayal. And to ensure existence of us, central europeans russia must perish


Code-BetaV2

I live in Serbia, so i am not westerner. Also, Russia isnt comming to kill you all. I hate putin but i dont think russia must perish


Zeepelinlover

Russia isnt comming yet, since they are weaker and big daddy from the America is protecting us now. but when USA will get weaker we will be left alone beetween Germany who see us as a working force to their economy and not as equal partner and imperialist russia, because russia is imperialist in nature. so we will be partioned again. to ensure it will not happen some radical decisions must be made, like sending russia back to stone age and reviving idea of intermarium to create counterbalance for western europe


egric

All the wars on the territories of the former USSR were started by russia and it's imperialist ambitions, not by the newly independent countries


kamiloss14

Armenia and Azerbaijan are not Russia. Also, managing this monstrosity of a breakdown would put a huge strain on anyone trying, and without intervention, it would be even worse.


theProffPuzzleCode

And yet that is a price worth paying. The Russian Federation has proved that it must be broken up. Also, it’s the natural order of things, nations ate gradually breaking up into smaller entities.


ibuprophane

I’m afraid there is no “natural order of things” when it comes to nation building/dismantling.


kamiloss14

I would say nations were growing for a long time already. Germany, Italy and Spain are the nations that formed from smaller countries and remain, while there are none who collapsed into smaller entities except of Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia (which split to only 2 countries) and Yugoslavia, all of them being pretty modern creations. Nations do not fall apart anymore like in medieval times.


theProffPuzzleCode

Yes, those nations did “grow” in the past, and as you correctly point out in your examples, there are lots of examples of them splitting. The collapse of the Soviet Union, since you mentioned it, lead to (directly or otherwise) most of the the emergence of 29 new nations that have appeared since 1990. I could name more in Africa, such as South Sudan, Namibia and Eritrea. Even more such nations are vying for independence, such as, Somaliland, West Papua, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Scotland, Veneto, Flemish Republic, Quebec (voted in 1995 by 50.58% to remain part of Canada), Catelonia and who knows how many more. Don’t let the facts get in the way of your argument though 😘


Code-BetaV2

>And yet that is a price worth paying. The Russian Federation has proved that it must be broken up. And how so? Didnt know we have expert on geopolitics here. Also what issues do you belive russia has and is there better way to solve that than to kill tens of millions of russians


Vicodinforbreakfast

First of all Who cares? Let them fight between them and kill themselves instead of others. Second the break up of ussr was not bad, was actually the best historical event ever happened, Just above the fall of nazi germany.


PutinIsAnAssPirate

Hvad you in your studies observed it's the same scenario that is on going, that you are calling out as a dooms day scenario?


unC0Rr

This map is made up by a much delusional person who has no idea what life in Russia is. Northern Caucasus Confederation, lol.


PieceAnke

You clearly have no idea what life in Russia is. Most of Russia is secluded and insanely diverse ethnically. I would chop that map up 5 more times to be honest.


unC0Rr

I lived in russia for 33 years, okay? And your desires have no connection to reality.


PieceAnke

Not my desires, it is just the way reality is. Russia, much like the average russian, is too large, poor, stupid, diverse, and disconnected to be sustainable for any prolonged time in history. Half of Russia is culturally and ethnically closer to China than to Russia. I have many Russian relatives and lived in Ukraine for most of my childhood, so saying you are Russian just makes your opinion less credible than it already was


unC0Rr

I'm not russian, sorry. And, if you believe in caucasian confederations or Arkhangelsk region being split 5 more times, welp, that's a big delusion. Hope you're not under impression that your opinion is more credible than that of mine.


magicbrou

Is the ”way reality is” that land on this map should go to Norway, a country that never had those lands and has zero connection to it? This is just dumb altogether.


Killing_The_Heart

I live in Russia. You are lying. Done.


PieceAnke

How would you know what a good country is supposed to be like if you live in Russia?


Killing_The_Heart

Because Russia is a good country? We have one of the cheapest internet prices, cheap water price and cheap gas prices(wonder why?). Corruption level is big, yeah, but local authorities are less corrupted than head of the government. Also, we don't loose our jobs if we call trans women a men and even if you write "FUCK PUTIN" in your social media, 99.7% that nothing would happened because censorship is not China level.


CookieForYall

You are a *clown*. For one, you’re totally fucking wrong about half of Russia being “closer to China in culture”. Second, your whole comment stinks of xenophobia. No one here (I hope) supports the Putin government, but if you truly want the average Russian and the Russian nation to suffer as much this map here, you are an absolute monster. Nothing about this map nor your comment makes sense.


Fishfrogthefrogfish

Agreed, I saw that and my teeth began to itch 😂


PieceAnke

Brush your teeth then? I can smell that frog breath from here


IgNaran

Texas back to Mexica. Alsace-Lorraine to Germany and so on. Why do you speak for buryats and other nations of Russia? Do you know any? OP view on history is hilarious. The whole map of the world should be torn from your pov. UPD: the funniest thing is that it is litteraly the same agenda of russian propaganda used in Ukraine. The OP is going to liberate nations in Russia? Haha. Who asked you to do that? You had to fight evil not join it.


Killing_The_Heart

"Liberate" nations in Russia when any of our subjects can choose national language and have big level of autonomy. It's because Russia is a federation. Devide it and you will have a lot of poor, poverty little countries that will become muppet states of big countries like China and US. OP is idiot.


golpedeserpiente

Geopolitically unsound. Check Mackinder's theory.


ShahZaZa

You sound like a Victorian era Britt who want to redraw the borders of an African or Middle Eastern nation.


Zagloss

Caucasus confederation made me laugh, thanks


[deleted]

I mean most of these areas are now popualted by russians. I don't think Russia will collapse in this way anytime soon. But you still see the hypocracy. They expect Ukraine to give up land because russians live there but they themself have shown that they would never do this even if, unlike ukrainians and russians, they have litteraly nothing in common with the people who live there, like in Chechnya.


DanielDoesFlags

Aw helllllll naw the Paradox player's drawing up partition maps But seriously a collapse of Russia into dozens of smaller warring states that each now have NUCLEAR WEAPONS would be a worst case nightmare senerio


geltance

US is a prison of states, UK is a prison of countries... Any country is a prison of regions. Regions of cities. Cities of areas. Etc.


squirrel-bear

Scotland is trying to get free, Northern Ireland might unite with rest of the Ireland. Even the Welsh sometimes think about independence.


geltance

yup, can't really blame them with current state of UK Parliament. BoJo is a joke...


LanguishViking

... and if they really really want to do it.. they can and will.


Dude-in-the-backrow

A prison of states? Ha,ha... actually the states make up the nation. We are a blended country of many religions, nationalities and colors....not perfect, but not a prison.


OldWolfofFarron1

Tell that to the confederates. How did trying to leave work out for them?


Dude-in-the-backrow

In 1861??? Try telling the slaves we should have stayed out of it.... stopping slavery and the expansion of it into the Louisiana purchase territories was not only a moral obligation but the right thing to do. We're not perfect but that decision worked out pretty damn well...


OldWolfofFarron1

Yes, I agree with you and I’m glad the confederates lost, but my argument was that no state can just leave the union.


Dude-in-the-backrow

I see what your saying but the Russia federation and the states are worlds apart on what keeps them together.. one thing I do know is Russia needs to be smacked back 100 years , maybe some internal turmoil would keep them busy enough for their neighbors to at least regroup and build up stronger defenses... if they didn't have nukes I'd cheer on some major internal conflict.


[deleted]

>Russia needs to be smacked back 100 years That'd put them where, the 1800s?


Dude-in-the-backrow

1922.


Eggcellent_DTR

As a Kazakh, I am interested as to why we weren't given back our historical territories?


KantExplain

I mean... so is *every* nation.


Icebear_GER

Fuck china


slavicturk

What’s with all the hate for Russia ?


OutrageousStar5705

Well take a wild fucking guess


truthandloveforever

Stupidest map I've ever seen. Absolutely horrible. Lol. But this logic, most countries in the world need to be split up into tons of little pieces. The People Republic of Urals doesn't even cover all of the Urals. Try again. Lol this is like saying part of California, Arizona, and Texas belong to Mexico.


Ambitious-Air-5816

Currently China is doing war games in the north east of their country, do you think they are preparing to take back their lost territory from Ruzzia, I think so.


kamiloss14

They have no reason to do this, Russia is pretty friendly towards them and they are nation with powerful economy already, while Siberia is not worth it. If they actually did this, I see no reason to be happy about it.


GUMinion

Cool now do the same to the US, Canada, and Australia


Chemical-Sky-6303

As a Russian I sorta hate seeing this kind of shit. There are Russians like Navalny who have done everything they could to prevent the war and thousands of people who went on demonstrations. There are also thousands of people who temporarily left the country and now are doing everything to take the reins away from Putin. It's like ok, if you Ukranians really mean what you say about 'killing all the Russians' and partitioning my country then go on. Then probably Putin has a grain of truth in his words when he calls you Nazis.


[deleted]

You guys are genocidal imperialists raping babies and children in front of their mothers, bombing civilians and you have the gall to call the people you're *invading* Nazis? What, because you have some meager domestic opposition? I guess Poland deserved what they got from Germany because what, Schindler was doing his thing? You're fucked, bud. It's this mentality that makes the partition of the Russian Federation look like the only possible way to stop people like you from ever doing this shit to innocent people ever again. The west is plenty fucked, but you people take the fucking cake.


el__duder1n0

Finland part of map is wildly inaccurate


irrjebwbk

No ingria? Also wtf is up with the lack of uralic nations


Memeoligy_expert

Beautiful


SquidCap0

This map is BS. Part of Finland goes back to Finland.. That makes no sense. Finland also did not have the entire Karelia in 1917. Anything before that is either Russian or Swedish territory.


PeterTheGreat777

I dont think this is likely to happen at all. If the country survived the red civil war and didnt disintegrate then ( apart from the nations that were already clamoring for independence such as Baltic states, finns, poles) why would it happen now? I mean yeah sounds great but what would have to happen for such disintegration to happen?


plasticface2

Yeah lets just let Russia stew in its pre 2014 borders. This is exactly what Putin wants. An invasion scare ( even if it was just aiding and abetting internal strife) will just give Russian population a justification.


SnooBooks1701

Sykes-Picot, is that you? Have you returned to fuck up another region?


Evil_Mini_Cake

Johnny Harris does a nice video explaining how that came to be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBlZlmXyR5M


nice8080

I think you can draw a same map of the world and title it the WORLD is a prison of the white man. /mic dropped


[deleted]

The general silliness of this idea aside... I know there's a mapgore sub, but is there a *legend* gore sub? Legends are supposed to make maps more clear, not more complicated to read!


Dejanxns

Maybe because of talk such as this post, have the Russians reacted the way we see now in Ukraine? Offense best defense? Again, this is a point of discussion before I get crucified here by the board, however there are a lot of plays going behind so called closed doors that us regular people don’t have access to. It is very possible that there was a movement encouraged by the west even before the invasion, in order to facilitate the breakup of Russia. As far as Russia breaking into different parts, would take Russia to be very weak, and for various minorities to feel confident to go ahead and start some form of rebellion in order to secure greater autonomy or independence. Personally , having met a lot of Russians that are different ethnicities , but however see themselves as Russian, makes me think the above would be very tough as Russia has done a good job in assimilating ethnic groups. A great example is how probably half of Chechnya is pro-Russia.


timmyboyswede

By this logic, whats Finland? Its all Sweden mate.


RaptorCaliph

This reminds me of all the reddit posts about China exploding in 30 thousands different countries, except all of these maps are bonkers and don’t represent realities, Russia collapsing would see a handful of ethnic republics splitting and that would be the end of it, i can also say that Ukraine is gonna collapse into 67 cossacks hetmanates because 14th century history, seriously get a life this is just ridiculous


Sorry-This-User

Also known as federal state, ya know, like Germany and the USA


Etterra

So is this like a hypothetical or an alternate history? At first I thought the map was upside down, but then I realized no that's just Eurasia with a big chunk hacked off the bottom.


Sachiko-san999

When the cake contains sugar, salt, pepper spice, vinegar and various other spices that don't mix well together.


Visible_Sky_8556

What the fuck is this? A modded hoi4 game?


Plastic-Sir2392

I’m going to Komi


tightiewhitieboy

RUzzIA has always been a terrible insecure neighbor.


Wrappa_

Central Russian State in the subdued nations!!?. WTF has this map been smoking


CTMADOC

Correction: Russia is a shit-hole prison of nations...


alioshazov

The map might be wrong but its true that many different cultures are held together under a fist of steel for centuries now. Imagine to push a civil war in Russia and all them with some kind of nuclear capabilities. That would be a disaster for the world. Careful with what you wish for…the last russian civil war shaped the world


SerovGaming1962

redditors explaining why balkanizing nations is a REALLY GOOD IDEA


TheDeveloper1776

When can I legally hunt Redditor? (In Minecraft)


Commissar_David

Low-Key kinda prefer the Chinese plan to split Russia Up.


iloveinspire

About Kaliningrad. Not Polish-German protectorate. But Polish-Lithuanian.


[deleted]

Seems like a bad Idea. Siberia needs west Russia to survive, Though I would like a Migrant Crisis and destabilize NATO. Also Why is west Caucasus given to Ukraine? They are litterally our historical enemy. Also Why Yakutia (964,330) and Buryatia (<984,000) got their independence? But eh, seems like you want some wars going on in the future.


chickenbjorn

Literally just propoganda


Szwedo

This is do dumb. Strategy geopolitical video games aren't real life op.


Sedgarite

>prison of nations Do you lack an understanding of how a federation works? Bro, stop playing Hoi4.


arcturus_leader

someone clearly has played too much TNO or TWR, or seen its memes Whether that is a compliment or an insult, it's up to you


TheImperios

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Qwinn_SVK

Belongs to Norway... What?


jimogios

And then people are surprised when Putin invades! These machinations from Western leaders, is the biggest proof that Putin and his regime have to present to their people, to justify their actions.


[deleted]

...do you think reddit user alino4ka_orlenko is like, Biden or Macrons burner account or something? How fucking stupid *are* you?


jimogios

like I don't know, take a wild guess


[deleted]

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how you could possibly think this is an official map concocted by anyone in the west with a satellite, barely working knowledge of what Russia is like, let alone a western leader.


jimogios

did I ever claim that this is an official map? people here praying for Russia to collapse are the real idiots, and you might as well be one of them. in what scenario is this good for anyone?


[deleted]

>did I ever claim that this is an official map? Your comment reads that way, talking about this very shoddy fictional map in terms of "these machinations of Western leaders." >people here praying for Russia to collapse are the real idiots, and you might as well be one of them. >in what scenario is this good for anyone? Probably a pretty good scenario for Ukraine! Neutering a genocidal imperial state that sees the west as it's mortal enemy that needs to be destroyed and absorbed *seems like a pretty good idea.* Partitioning seems necessary as the various regions of Russia don't really share a common cultural or ethnic origin, but maybe that's not necessarily true. The centralization of Russia's political organization could lead to a chaotic collapse, which would be bad considering the nuclear question. Mirroring the post WWII model of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany seems to have worked out pretty well, and they can play nice and engage in world politics without engaging in subterfuge and monstrous invasion as their main tools of foreign policy nowadays. Europe tried to entangle Russia with economic interests, but Russia has weaponized that approach. It's clear that the civilized world cannot bridge this gap without a significant sea change in Russia's political culture. Putin has created the environment of people wanting to neutralize Russia. After the fall of the USSR, everyone wanted to bring them into the fold and step into a peaceful coexistence. It's the remnants of the KGB and imperial Soviet thinking that has driven neutral Sweden and Finland to NATO. The west didn't invade Ukraine and blame it on Russia, they did that themselves as part of a longtime strategy to weaken the west and expand their geopolitical influence. It backfired and now everyone sees Russia as a rabid dog. Who's fault is that?


jimogios

"Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat" - Sun Tzu from the Art of War Humiliating your opponent and trying to completely destroy them can backfire and hurt you even more.


[deleted]

That doesn't really address the long term danger of leaving Russia intact as it is now. As you say, they still have allies and trade partners. If they slip away, it won't be to reexamine their society - it'll be to rearm, retrain, and try again without the same handicaps as before.


jimogios

such crusades of righteousness are wrong, self-catastrophic and hypocritical. But anyway, you have your point of view, I have mine.


flpaddleguy

Fuck Russia.


Mrcoldghost

I know that the dissolution of Russia is discussed often on this sub but I have to ask. Just how realistic is this actually happening in real life?


OldWolfofFarron1

0%


Battleship_WU

Just like the United States, what your point?


MXZM0709

Cringe.


marrecar

Russia is a federation, just like USA, Canada, Mexico, etc. What is the point here exactly? Mods should delete this unnecessary post.


JuBei9

More people should see this.