T O P
sherdogger

I don't get people saying which 3-drop you going to replace in Rakdos...you don't, you remove your flex cards like darkdwellers, invoke despair, sorrin. She's way better to have in the 60 than the slot-filler o' the week cards typically run


Rafael_Rom86

This


latetotheBTCparty

IS!


jmachol

…Sparta?


sneaky_wolf

They're the same people who can only copy deck lists online. They will all be playing it when mtgo deck all run one of thr best plains walkers ever printed.


chente_goldmane

I can’t wait to T3 Lili into T4 Rhino


VenusaurTrainer

as a Jund mage, i'll do the same but objectively worse play of T3 lili into T4 \[\[Ziatora's envoy\]\]!


cardfetcher

[Ziatora's Envoy](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/snc-streets-of-new-capenna/en/med/ziatoras-envoy-232.png?7584) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/ziatoras-envoy/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Ziatora%27s+Envoy)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ziatora%27s+Envoy)) • [$ 0.25](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/ziatoras-envoy?utm_source=reddit)


chente_goldmane

Hey no one can take away our 4MV creature follow ups to lili!


VenusaurTrainer

Yeah! I'll force it forever and watch it get killed before it can do anything everytime!


Wuyley

I would kill for a pioneer legal \[\[birds of paradise\]\] or a new Abzan hierarch \[\[Noble Hierarch\]\] \[\[Ignoble Hierarch\]\]


cardfetcher

[Noble Hierarch](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/mm2-modern-masters-2015/en/med/noble-hierarch-151.png?8728) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/noble-hierarch/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Noble+Hierarch)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Noble+Hierarch)) • [$ 10.2](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/noble-hierarch?utm_source=reddit) [Ignoble Hierarch](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/pmh2-modern-horizons-2-promos/en/med/ignoble-hierarch-166s.png?3103) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/ignoble-hierarch/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Ignoble+Hierarch)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ignoble+Hierarch)) • [$ 2.43](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/ignoble-hierarch?utm_source=reddit) [Birds of Paradise](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/sld-secret-lair-drop/en/med/birds-of-paradise-176.png?332) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/birds-of-paradise/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Birds+of+Paradise)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Birds+of+Paradise)) • [$ 8.59](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/birds-of-paradise?utm_source=reddit)


Predicted

Inb4 your opponent discards parhilion and youre dead before your rhino can hit the battlefield


chente_goldmane

Man, you must be fun at parties.


GreatThunderOwl

8-RACK!!! WE DID IT!!!


NykthosVess

Idunno man. Discard's major weakness in pioneer is finishing the game. Your only ways for pumping out damage for keeping your opponents hand empty is davriel and shrieking affliction. I'm wondering if there will be more cards to make it viable in this set though.


Bookwrrm

To be fair generally once you have a Liliana in play uncontested in rack you have won, basically zero decks can come back from empty handed with Liliana in play. You don't really need a clock when you have the ability to answer basically everything the opponent does just sitting on the field ticking up, but that's also in decks with smallpox threatening land counts and such so it's hard to really draw a conclusion until it's tested, people might be able to get through a lili ultimate unlike modern.


Gamer4125

I remember ripping a Sphinxs Rev off the top vs my discard loving friend. Nothing makes a discard players soul drain like a rev for 6.


NykthosVess

Yeah it's just an issue of pioneer being a consistently turn 4/5 format. Discard just doesn't seem fast enough atm.


GreatThunderOwl

I run \[\[Liliana, Waker of the Dead\]\] right now which can really hurt


cardfetcher

[Liliana, Waker of the Dead](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/prm-magic-online-promos/en/med/liliana-waker-of-the-dead-85936.png?3036) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/liliana-waker-of-the-dead/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Liliana%2C+Waker+of+the+Dead)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liliana%2C+Waker+of+the+Dead)) • [$ 3.46](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/liliana-waker-of-the-dead?utm_source=reddit)


destroyermaker

Yeah the win con doesn't matter much and there are many. Rack is just cheap which makes it desirable for a low resource deck


smackbeef

Pioneer 8rack needs a smallpox effect I think


changelingusername

Liliana Waker does rack as well, plus Waste Not is more viable than in Modern.


Jasmine1742

Ya got manlands. Manlands help. It's main weakness is RB just does better mkre the time.


PulsatingOrb

So we just completely replace 4 mana lili with this right


GreatThunderOwl

4 mana lili is good though with the life loss--really helpful when you don't have enough shrieking/davriel


destroyermaker

Just when I think I'm out...


thehaarpist

Maybe I can force Dimir Midrange to work this time


Cackfiend

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/pioneer-dimir-midrange#paper


thehaarpist

God, I'm gonna have to get a hold of meathook massacres. Kill me now


Detective-E

For me as a transitioning standard player it's the shredders, Kalitas and Scarab God


thehaarpist

Scarab I have from Commander, Shredders I have from Esper Greasefang and Kalitas I'll need to pick up as well


Jasmine1742

Kalitas and scarab god are cool but probably ultimately replacable. Shredders are unfortunately just too good to pass up.


Detective-E

What should I replace them with?


Jasmine1742

whatcha got? Cutting kalitus means you prob need more grave hate.


Detective-E

So another graveyard trespasser? But his ability is good because they get exiled instead of having a chance to hit the grave.


Jasmine1742

probably, and yeah not saying kalitus isn't good. Just that he isn't completely over the top powerful so if you don't wanna buy him you can do without.


Detective-E

Even runs \[\[Liliana's Triumph\]\] without Liliana..


cardfetcher

[Liliana's Triumph](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/tsr-time-spiral-remastered/en/med/lilianas-triumph-327.png?1458) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/lilianas-triumph/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Liliana%27s+Triumph)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liliana%27s+Triumph)) • [$ 0.25](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/lilianas-triumph?utm_source=reddit)


VenusaurTrainer

why not add red and unlock all of the Rakdos + Grixis all-stars?


thehaarpist

I do already have Fable of the mirror breaker. That costs more money on my land base though


TheItchyWalrus

Woot woot. I plan on cutting Sorin and moving Chandra sideboard against control and midrange decks.


SergeantEgo

This is the smartest comment in this thread.


Blenderhead36

So many people in this thread are like, "What 3 drops are you cutting?" None of them. You're cutting the 4 and 5 drops that are powerful when you draw them at the right time but rot in your hand when you don't.


koskadelli

Exactly this. Part of the reason Lurris was so powerful is that it forced players to build their decks more correctly by lowering their curve lol.


TheItchyWalrus

This player gets it! Mana efficiency is king.


VenusaurTrainer

Can also go down 1 dreadbore as Lili acts as more removal too?


TheItchyWalrus

Probably could but hitting the walkers is important. Definitely worth messing around with. Edit: pitching creatures to buy back with Kommand is always an option. Source: played Jund in modern for 6 years.


VenusaurTrainer

Kcommand is back on the menu? We ditching and number of fable? It has always been insanely slow for me.


Killerrabbitz

Fable has to stay at 4 of, it is single handedly the reason the deck is so powerful. If anything I'd probably go to 3 bonecrusher and cut the sorin first for 2 copies of lili.


lykosen11

Haha no. Cards broken mate. Apart from blood crypt it's the last card to be cut.


Jasmine1742

Fable is by far the best card in BR midrange


TheItchyWalrus

Personally, I cut fable for it a while ago. Fable is too slow and not enough payoffs IMO. but I know I’m in the minority there. I’ve always preferred the flexibility of Kommand. I slotted it back in a little while ago. Edit: spelling; context


KarnSilverArchon

Sorin to me was always the “Bastard” card of the deck. Felt wrong that it was the best in class, but his results were never too too bad. Now I think you just gut him and maybe some other stuff for LotV.


[deleted]

[удалено]


SpideyStrawhat

How is that more awkward than running 4 drops? If you can cast Sorin you can cast Liliana and hold up mana or play a tapped land.


TheItchyWalrus

Worth noting you can pitch your late game, Dead 3 drops to Liliana, including redundant copies in hand.


VenusaurTrainer

Go Jund and add 6-7 dorks?


TheItchyWalrus

Yes.


Jasmine1742

Unsure if I'd cut both Chandra MD. But also not sure if Lili is a 4 of MD atm


TheItchyWalrus

I was considering a 3/1 split with Last Hope. Veil’s weakness is go wide strategies. But a 1 of Torch of Defiance main could be hawt. Having the card advantage is important.


Cackfiend

some madlad bought 100 copies of loxodon smiter for 25 cents each on tcgplayer rofl


nobodynobody567

Underated comment Boom new pioneer dynamic .. you discard me okay !


NiceBasket9980

I feel like everyone is underrating this card.. It was literally a modern staple until the mh sets. You are crazy if you think it's bad, and it definitely will see tier 1 main deck play in a midrange or control deck in pioneer.


JBuzzCuzz

She was a house on 2011 when she was printed but magic has power crept a lot since then


NiceBasket9980

Has it though? She was a modern staple until mh2. She wasn't crept out of modern by standard sets. She will be very good if we get goyf too.


zelao23

former modern jund player here, the power creep got to her way before mh2. 1 for 1 magic is not as strong as it used to be, i think she will se play but as a 2 of in some decks and that's it.


NiceBasket9980

Jund was fine / tier 1 in the modern formats that weren't centered around cards that got banned. Mh1 and mh2 killed her. Not standard sets. 1 for 1 is fine in pioneer. It's not some crazy format like you guys are making it out to be.


zelao23

and how many copies of liliana do you think will be used the the black based midrange decks? jund like decks are good when the format is fair, i don't know if pionner is that fair.


NiceBasket9980

What is unfair about pioneer. It's nykthos, pheonix, burn with high creature density, spirits, heroic, rb, control, lotus, and humans. Lili is very good against burn, spirits, heroic, control, humans, and lotus. Okay vs nykthos and not great vs pheonix. Actually take a look at the meta. She's a great card.


NiceBasket9980

Ahh the very first pioneer challange is won by rb with 3 lili main lmfao.


Twistlaw

In 2018, right before the first MH dropped, [she still was the most played planeswalker in Modern](https://www.mtgtop8.com/topcards). She was swept out, as you correctly said, by forced power creep, not by new standard printings. People don't know what they're talking about.


NiceBasket9980

Thanks. I thought I was going crazy all spoiler season when people were acting like Lili was a trash card that would maybe only see sideboard play. It was the weirdest thing.


Blenderhead36

This is really hard to gauge. There were a bunch of FIRE cards that displaced her. They got banned just in time for MH2.


NiceBasket9980

I'd say it's pretty easy. Jund post mh1 after hoogaak/urza metas was good because the combo of Lili and Wrenn and Six is very very strong. So she was played until mh2 killed it. Boomer Jund existed until mh2 and it's not really a difficult thing to see.


Therefrigerator

It's not that Lili is even bad now, it's just that the best midrange deck doesn't play black. She's not even necessarily powercreeped out of modern the decks she's good in are just not top tier. Lurrus was what really kept her out of modern (all the black midrange decks wanted Lurrus more) but you see her still when you see the Bx midrange decks. Not the 4x that she once saw but usually 2-3 of them.


JBuzzCuzz

The “if we get goyf” argument is my point with lili. She is a build around walker and right now there isn’t much outside of greasefang that is a clear build around.


NiceBasket9980

She will still see midrange, control, and greasfang play if we do not get gofy. Current pioneer powerlevel isn't past Lili. The only deck she's "bad" against that's teir one is pheonix, and even then, she still can help answer stuff like shredder or Drake. She will be very good.


JBuzzCuzz

Greasefang is the biggest winner of the lilly reprint. With Rakdos being a close second. This is one of those bookmark this comment to meme on me later if things turn out differently but unless we get something major during spoiler season she will be a 4 of in GF, 1 main/2 side in Rakdos, and sideboard control.


NiceBasket9980

That's very hard to say at this point. Lili is a format warping card and could easily change the best midrange deck in the format (rakdos). It could also be a player in some black control decks with delve spells like dig through time. I'd bet a lot she will be a 3 of in whatever the best black midrange and control decks are. Maybe even four. You are forgetting about delve spells and how well she fuels them.


sneaky_wolf

Indeed she's going to be oppressive in the RB deck unless they print some real good one drops like goblin guide. Which I also don't like becuase why play modern lite?


NiceBasket9980

Well the entire dmu set was linked by wizards itself so I can talk spoilers or not. But idk, I think wizards is trying to rebuild modern with old staples that they rotated out with mh2.


sneaky_wolf

If that's the case wouldn't it be a modern masters release?


sneaky_wolf

Liliana effects play the turn its played goyf dies to push portable hole etc. It's a terrible compairson and makes no sense becusse tarmogoyf is not in the set.


JBuzzCuzz

I’m not comparing them. What I’m saying is that people are overlooking what made lilly great in her time in modern. She’s a build around walker for decks that can break the symmetry of her +1. In modern her power came from the fact that her +1 usually binned 2 card types that made someone’s goyf +2/+2 for a fast clock to back up the hand pressure that she offered. I’m just pointing out that everyone saying that she would be “great if we got X card” is showing that point and that as things stand greasefang is the only deck in the format that can maximize her +1 outside of any maddness/graveyard decks that she might enable.


sneaky_wolf

Did you play against that card in standard? It's good in almost every format. The problem we have in pioneer is it fits perfectly into the RB game plan and that decks already too good imo. Liliana is one of the cards that wizards later upped the powerlevel of low cost creatures to make less relevant. Its just strange to me they introduce it back to standard and pioneer when the formats games are being decided way too early imo. Modern lite is not a good thing imo


JBuzzCuzz

I’ve played against the card in several formats and the delta between her being good and being average is her supporting crew. Goyf into Lilly? Excellent. T2 removal into T3 lilly to get their last creature? Good Lilly against 1 drop into 2 drop? Weak When it comes to Rakdos, they’re going to replace some number of fable & GY trespasser which means any boost in power they get from Lilly is going to be offset by the loss of those cards. Fable makes rakdos hum and GY TP is arguably the best 3cmc creature in pioneer.


NiceBasket9980

Lili almost never gets played into a board with two creatures while you have non though. The decks that play her run removal and the best creatures in their colors. She's midrange all star, and midrange decks have always been a pile of the best cards. She's insane because of how flexible she is for 3 mana, she's super easy to protect on the board, and she constricts your opponents hand. Her entire build around cost is play the best removal and creatures in your colors. That's nothing. Rankdos curve of fatal push/thoughtseize into stomp/vampire into Lili into kalitas will be rediculously hard to beat.


sneaky_wolf

Eh I don't think you drop trespasser or fable but likely kalatus or the slot that is dark dwellers etc. Lilly is great in the deck for the exact reason you point out. Giant and trespasser go well backed by push etc. All Lillian does is complement the deck...


Blenderhead36

Historic *did* get Goyf and it's unplayable. Goyf wouldn't be good in Pioneer, either. Fetchlands are too important. The classic play pattern was turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Goyf. If you anything but a Sorcery with Thoughtseize and either player fetched, that was a 3/4 Goyf on turn 2. Often times, it was a 4/5 because someone had played an Instant at some point. Goyf just doesn't cut it as a 2 mana 2/3.


thephotoman

She was a Legacy staple until putting cards into your opponent's graveyard willy nilly became profoundly inadvisable unless you plan to win before it matters--meaning turn 2. There's just enough ways to use your graveyard as a resource now that most decks actively do exactly that.


sneaky_wolf

I think a lot of people have retired or quit who played Lilly in standard and early modern. This is one of those format shaping cards. It's so stupid its been printed into a format where a RB midrange is very very good.


NiceBasket9980

I 100% agree. I cannot believe people thing this is a fringe playable card that might see sideboard play only. Mh sets killed Lili in modern, not standard sets.


sneaky_wolf

>. Mh sets killed Lili in modern, not standard sets. and MH killed modern at lest in my eyes. Huge cash grab at the expense of the game.


NiceBasket9980

I agree man. I had a diverse collection of modern decks (Knightfall, gw valuetown, counters compan, spirits, Merfolk, humans, and all the death and taxes variants) and the mh sets killed my entire collection.


TKOS7

I wonder if this slots into UB control to help fuel Dig? Lotv doesn’t usually fit control shells but slamming this t3, edicting and then ticking up with the aim of hitting dig seems great. Especially with cards like Lochmere Serpent to discard and buyback


Therefrigerator

Probably not straight UB control. A UB midrange list is where LotV might shine. I'm not sure if you ever played with LotV but the card really doesn't work well with holding up mana on your opponent's turn - which most control decks are interested in (especially UB as certain cards are hard to answer once they hit the field). You want to be able to dump your hand then tick up so only your opponent discards. When you topdeck a counterspell with Lili in play it's quite awkward


Apotheosis62

I'm really not excited to play against this in pioneer its not super degenerate or anything but the power level is very high


eadenoth

it’s not gonna be a problem. this card is very reasonable compared to cards designed today


ncarlo

Ye hasty dudes/wide boards beat up on her pretty well. I feel creatures are way more efficient than she is. LoTv is good in a vacuum but needs heavy support and set up to shine


ordirmo

What is successfully going wide against removal.dek haha


ncarlo

I mean playing multiple one drops, generating tokens, playing graveyard recursive threats, going bigger. We’ll see if she warps the environment or not but I have my doubts


Gamer4125

Graveyard recursive threats vs trespasser and hive, lol good one


Jasmine1742

BR midrange is literally in contention for best deck in the format atm, I'm sure she'll manage.


Apotheosis62

I don't think its going to be a huge problem or anything I'm just not really looking forward to it. I think it just makes the best decks better which is something I'm never really a fan of in high power reprints


Harky13

What lotv is best at has always been punishing an opponent on a bad keep or a mulligan. I think this card will be a problem (I’ll have 4 in my rakdos deck).


eadenoth

it’s a grind card for sure. when you play against this you have to answer it, which in my opinion can be very difficult in current era magic when so many cards in the last 4 years have dual effects, must answer board presence, etc.


Riffler

I don't see anyone cutting Fable or Trespasser for this.


Rafael_Rom86

I'm easily seeing cutting goblin darkdwellers for this, cut&ribbons some bonecrusher giants or even some Kalitas for this, and adding more underdogs. Kalitas returns to the sideboard easily for this piece of a card!!!!


VenusaurTrainer

We can probably go down one dreadbore too as lili provides removal.


NiceBasket9980

Probably not dread bore cuz your going to need to have main deck Lili answers.


Eridrus

Yeah, this seems somewhat equivalent to Ob in its role in BR, which rarely makes the cut. Much more likely to see this in some dedicated decks. I could see this going into a Greasefang deck as a thing to do if the opponent is holding up mana.


m00tz

Her minus ability is much much stronger than Ob Nixilis and her ultimate is a very real thing vs control decks. I think you’re misevaluating her role, she’s a removal spell that gains some extra value vs aggro decks and huge amounts of value vs control decks.


Eridrus

1BB sac a creature, gain 2 life is unplayable in draft, let alone Pioneer. You really need the other abilities to be relevant. Minus is obviously much stronger than Ob's, but you're not playing it for the minus, you're playing it to beat control, and the minus is a buyout that lets you main deck it without it being horrible vs aggro. But if folks are not willing to put Ob in the board, it seems unlikely this will go in the main. I think it's totally playable if you really want to beat control, maybe she replaces some Invoke Despairs in the board. I just don't think you want this g1 over any of your 3 drops, and your curve is already so heavy on 3s, I don't think you want to have more of them. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think it's a huge upgrade for BR, given the current meta.


Jasmine1742

Lili genral utility is way higher than ob. I like ob, but ob works pretty much only in sac decks and he basically is about letting you win harder.


Blenderhead36

Most versions of the BR deck play 1-4 five drops. I think you cut those. You're right that you don't cut Fable or Trespasser. Those cards are very different from LotV. They're threats and value engines. Lili's ult can win a game implicitly, but she's not really a threat.


Jasmine1742

No one sane will cut fable. I can see a world of shaving tresspasser a tiny bit for unlicensed hearse, I doubt it, but it's possible. Overall the deck has a few flex spots and I'm unconvinced she's a 4 of.


StrawberryZunder

I don't want to have to pay to get 2 copies for the deck, fuck!


V_Gates

Only 2?


StrawberryZunder

Exactly.


onetypicaltim

The price will drop, this set is going to opened a lot


StrawberryZunder

Yeah but demand will be high


Jasmine1742

It should, but her price keeps saying high despite barely being playable so I'm unsure. She's definitely going to be a big deal in pioneer.


Prohamen

Haha nice I can't wait to run this in my Abzan/BG deck


Gamer4125

I can't wait to stop playing pioneer of people play this card


Prohamen

cope, seethe, mald, etc.


Complex-Committee-58

How about Pioneer Rack? [https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mono-b-discard-pioneer/](https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mono-b-discard-pioneer/)


nobodynobody567

I dunno .. against a midrange stompy deck. Each turn 3-5, opponent casts a largish creature.Respond by Liliana sac but that only kills an elf. I think black will need to play murderous rider. So the mono black strategy has a no shreiking affliction strategy. 1. Thoughtseize 2. Some 2 drops, collective brutality, 3. 4 of Liliana, murderous rider 4. Kalitas traiter of Ghent 5. Tasigur might synergize will with cards in graveyard. Other ideas: 1. [[Bloodsoaked champion]] return for value. 2. [[Kolaghan's command]] 3. I would like to figure out [[grisley salvage]] 4. Urborg tomb of yawgmoth 5. [[Inscription of ruin]] good value card 3cmc and 7 CMC wins card advantage. 6. Asylum visitor may synergize for the win.


cardfetcher

[Kolaghan's Command](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/2x2-double-masters-2022/en/med/kolaghans-command-381.png?7346) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/kolaghans-command/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Kolaghan%27s+Command)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kolaghan%27s+Command)) • [$ 4.97](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/kolaghans-command?utm_source=reddit) [Bloodsoaked Champion](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/clb-commander-legends--battle-for-baldurs-gate/en/med/bloodsoaked-champion-740.png?753) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/bloodsoaked-champion/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Bloodsoaked+Champion)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodsoaked+Champion)) • [$ 0.13](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/bloodsoaked-champion?utm_source=reddit)


CrazyMike366

Ill be excited to try it out in Golgari Midrange, but im not sure if it'll be good enough to pull the deck up from "went 2-2 but everyone said it was kind of neat" on Pioneer night. Edit: Monoblack Devotion seems like it might be an option too.


Mazrim_reddit

Very cool card but people might be being quick to overhype this for pioneer. Which 3 drop is it replacing in rakdos midrange? Removal in general is a lot better than when lotv was a top tier modern card


Apotheosis62

I think this card is actually at its best in Abzan greasefang or some other variation anything where you create the tempo of making them hold up removal while also playing out of the graveyard is going to get a lot of value out of the plus 1


Mazrim_reddit

I think the problem with this card in greasefang is that greasefang is not exactly hurting for ways to discard, but yeah I can def see it slotting in there. I think any deck that can play fable isn't ever going to want to cut fable for this for example


Apotheosis62

The Abzan list has exactly [[Raffine's Informant]] to discard artifacts out of its hand unless you want to thoughtseize yourself so I think it could probably use another of couple ways. As far as like r/b looking at the last challenge winning list there are three easy cuts in Sorin, Cut//Ribbions, and probably one of bonecrusher or just move Hearse back to the sideboard. I think people are being to eager to just swap out 3 drops for 3 drops


cardfetcher

[Raffine's Informant](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/snc-streets-of-new-capenna/en/med/raffines-informant-26.png?9566) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/raffines-informant/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Raffine%27s+Informant)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raffine%27s+Informant)) • [$ 0.25](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/raffines-informant?utm_source=reddit)


jared2294

I think we’ll be using the new two drop for free discard and scry, actually But yes, we’ll be sideboarding Lilis. Mardu Greasefang wants this for sure.


kirbydude65

More importantly what deck in Pioneer is going to be super upset about discarding outside of UW Control? RB Midrange? Pitch a Kroxa. Greasefang? Pitch either half of the combo. Izzet? Drop a phoenix in the bin. Like half the decks in the format don't mind to discard, and in some cases you might be doing them a favor.


BanUrzasTower

People are really forgetting how good Lili is. It's not just that you lose your least favorite card. She's good because in a few turns everyone's hand is empty.


welshy1986

People out here forgetting that shes always a 2 for 1, ALWAYS. Then if shes not gone on the first turn shes played, shes not going away. In pioneer there aren't the best answers for plainwalkers, especially ones that tax you so heavily like liliana. Then you combine that with the fact that the entire deck of Rakdos is 2 for 1s. seeing people say "im not super upset discarding" its laughable. Then you follow up with siege rhino 2.0, yeah its gonna be a problem for alot of matchups.


Mazrim_reddit

we have treasure cruise in the format as well lol, gonna be fuelling that a lot of the time


BourgeoisMystics

Don’t really think RakMid needs this, but she’s definitely going to be solid elsewhere. Mono B sounding real good.


Bext

I think it'll be worth playtesting to see if lowering the curve and including more graveyard focused threats like Kroxa and Tenacious Underdog will be worth it. You could cut stuff like Kalitas, Goblin Dark Dwellers, or Sorin. Maybe LotV maindeck makes you slighly more vulnerable to aggro, but Rakdos is already so favored in that matchup I'd imagine the tradeoff to improve other matchups is worth it.


Blenderhead36

You don't cut 3 drops, you cut clunky 4 and 5 drops because Lili is better than them. Liliana isn't just removal. The big thing that she does is put both players in topdeck mode. You play her in a midrange deck; your cards are all Bs that work in isolation from each other. When your opponent is a combo or synergy deck, their cards are Ds and Fs in isolation that assemble into an A. Lili doesn't let them assemble them. As long as she's not vulnerable on the board, both players quickly get to a state where they draw their one card and play it that turn, because otherwise Lili will take it.


nmidori

I want to brew some mono-b degeneracy so bad


VenusaurTrainer

Looks like Midrange is back on the menu, boys!!! (not just rakdos)


EwanPorteous

Now what will this replace in Pioneer Rakdos Midrange? Hmmm


Rafael_Rom86

Goblin Darkdwellers, Cut and ribbons, Hearse and a bonecrusher Giant. Some people use Invoke despair Main deck, that could be cut too.


ofruine

THE NEW WORLD ORDER STARTS NOW BABY


MoistPast2550

So pumped to slot this into rakdos midrange. No idea what to take out though....


RosethaiGrandmaster

Sorin


MoistPast2550

Sorin is already a one of and gets cut in most lists anyway. I feel like we want at least two or three lily, no?


MmeOrgeron

Honestly? I don’t think it becomes a staple in rakdos midrange, more of a niche meta call


MoistPast2550

Really? It's one of the strongest Planeswalkers ever printed?


MmeOrgeron

She hasn’t been for quite a while. Magic has changed so much since she hit the scene that her abilities are somewhat antiquated. Powerhouse walkers these days are like Oko, Wandering Emp, and Chandra ToD. It is very difficult to win doing the 1 for 1 strategy that traditional shells that run her want to do, we live in the era of the 2 for 1 now. Will this stop me from trying her out in a madness shell? No.


Holy_Beergut

Oko was literally banned in every constructed format except for Vintage, so probably not a fair comparison against LotV, which is powerful but nowhere near that level of degeneracy. LotV comes down a turn earlier than Emperor and Chandra ToD, so that's important to note as well. In a vacuum, I think she may be somewhat weaker than the two, but 3 mana vs 4 mana is pretty significant. Time will tell if she has legs in pioneer, but I'm hopeful that she'll find a home


Proletariat_Paul

When the person he replied to called LotV "One of the Strongest Planeswalkers ever printed," then suddenly the comparison to Oko becomes fair. And not in her favour.


NiceBasket9980

What's the list? Here's the planeswalkers that are better: Oko (literal design mistake) Wrenn and Six Teferi, Time Raveler Teferi, hero of dominaria (debatable) Jace, the mind sculptor She's really close/arguably top 5 of all time, and I'd say she's better then big teferi. I think that constitutes as one of the best of all time.


thehaarpist

I think current meta she's a side board card. Top decks in the meta will laugh and drop Kroxa, Pheonix, Parhellion, or something to fuel their treasure cruise. I think she'll see play but it'll be way more niche until so many decks that are fine discarding power houses are out of the meta (or not so high up)


MoistPast2550

Making me feel old man.


kelyar

not sure about main (because I already play with no Sorin), but I'd put it in SB against trawler


DarthB8R

BR 3-drop tribal is one step closer to ultimate fulfillment! I haven’t been this excited for a tribal deck since Gideon tribal became a thing… [https://twitter.com/misplacedginger/status/1560306578750046208?s=21&t=pWtw0X_HFan7NKQWBfzC7w](https://twitter.com/misplacedginger/status/1560306578750046208?s=21&t=pWtw0X_HFan7NKQWBfzC7w)


seekerofsecrets1

BW Griesfang here I come


FangTheBrave

Is this card even THAT good? The meta has phoenix, greasefang and some cat/oven decks. Having your opponent pitch any of these is gonna hurt... Mind you the card is still really powerful, however I doubt it'll be anything too meta changing... Inb4 she ends up warping the format and getting banned and I'm wrong!


Starrynite120

2 of those decks you mentioned are black. Play it when you want to discard yourself.


Wild_Record5818

In my rakdos mid list: -1 dwellers -1 Kalitas -1 dreadbore +3 lotv


Rafael_Rom86

I think we cut all the 4+ drops and add 4 tenacious and a third Kroxa, RB with curve ending with 3


Wild_Record5818

You could be right. I just feel like chandra Is too good to cut. Plus lotv into chandra seems powerful. My current list does not play tenacious underdog, but I’ll likely play some number when lotv is legal


rag2008

Everybody knows this is slotting directly into Rakdos Midrange, I'm more curious on how it might revitalize other Bx Midrange decks like Vampires and Black Devotion. A few people have mentioned she might be good in one of the Greasefang variants too, which is completely fair, they have lots of cheap creatures to protect her from being attacked and could definitely benefit from a discard outlet that pressures the opponents hand and can remove big creatures.


jongbag

That's an interesting thought. I want Vampires to be playable so bad, but I'm not sure this directly helps with their worst issue, which is a slow clock and bad topdecks.


moongtang

vampires is still playable but personally I don't think lili fits here because you don't want to be discarding


magmosa

Between this and some of the other cards we've seen so far, I think we're about to see some absolutely degenerate BX decks. The fact that they are making UB control a precon may be an indicator that wizards are expecting it to overtake BR midrange, and between this and another leaked cards, I can see it happening.


Starrynite120

What’s the other card you’re thinking about?


magmosa

Was mostly thinking of a fake leaked sheoldred that looked like it would utterly ruin pioneer. Actual sheoldred seems much less horrifying, even if still naaty


bigbobo33

I really don't think it'll make Rakdos super juiced but rather I think there's going to be another deck that gets propelled to tier 2 or 1.5 (or even 1). Mono Black? Delirium? Another Black based midranged deck? Greasefang even?


guesdo

I'm definitely playing Rakdos Arcanist again with ma lady Liliana. I don't care what Tier it is. It is definitely a powerful combination. And with Kroxa as a finisher... Now your opponents can't deal with your GY and call it a day, because Liliana is a real board threat.


obsidianandstone

Watch the Goyf be tarmogoyf.


obsidianandstone

Watch the Goyf be tarmogoyf.


Plunderberg

Like Rakdos, or B, needed the help lmao barf.


SpideyStrawhat

Are people actually debating if this slots in RB Midrange? It's a freaking slam dunk 4x not a single doubt about it.


StrangleDoot

Ugh. Fuck this.


FisforFAKE

Not gonna waste my time thinking about new strategies with Veil too much. I’m concerned for the play patterns of RB Midrange and the mirrors though. Idk how you beat a T3 Veil when you’re OTD in the mirror.


BodomDeth

You play dreadbore


FisforFAKE

If you play to the board and get edicted, it’s a 2 for 1 against you. If you try to play around that scenario, you’re not using your mana efficiently when you’re already on the back foot. But yeah, Liliana of the Veil certainly is a legal target for Dreadbore. Edit: Regardless, should be interesting to see how it gets implemented. Excited to see what else is in the set.


Rafael_Rom86

Jund with goose, we're going for turn 2 Lili, just for fun and jiggles, time to die UW control!!!


Item_No

Idk, fuck uw control I guess. They need to print a reasonable hybrid removal on top of fateful absence, cos hardest thing for uw to deal with is planeswalkers... idk, uw abrupt decay :):):)


stratusncompany

mono b might be back on the menu. or maybe a new archetype perhaps? seems a little mediocre compared to other 3 drops in BR. esper control sounds disgusting feat. teferi, the wandering emperor, lili. i’m sure that curve will make some people really mad. (you can pitch memory deluge or something.


jongbag

Holy shit


BradleyB636

I never played with the card before since it game out during my 10 year hiatus, but that ultimate looks brutal since it doesn’t say nonland. Pile 1: all your lands and pile 2: everything else just looks hilarious.


sjv891

Now just give us bolt, iok and goyf and I have an amazing idea for a brew


SethJaws

why does everything have to work for RB midrange when other rock decks exist and actually need the help


MasterofKami

No deck yet but I can't wait to have a deck that uses Liliana of the Veil alongside The Wandering Emperor! Perhaps this just turns U / W Control into Esper? Or maybe an Abzan Midrange list could work?


Rafael_Rom86

BW midrange could now be an option, now there's a great synergy with extraction specialist and Lili, BW have removal for anything and white have the best sideboard cards. I think it could be the best midrange deck of the format.


MasterofKami

Yeah I could see B/W alone being great as well, great colours for removal plus these two incredibly powerful planeswalkers can make it work so well!


horsehome

Did RB Mid really need the help?


TheGarbageStore

This is a classic card from 2010s MTG but I'm not sure how good it will be in Pioneer. Traditionally, it is at its best against decks that want to assemble a critical mass of cards like Storm: a three-mana edict effect is not good enough on its own. There are more Dreadbore type effects in decks as well.