There is a reasonable amount of evidence that personal finance classes don't work. People who have taken personal finance classes in school don't appear to make better financial choices as adults than people who didn't take personal finance classes.
On the other hand teaching more math in school does appear to result in people making better financial choices as adults.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/04/23/more-states-are-forcing-students-study-personal-finance-its-waste-time/
>There is a reasonable amount of evidence that personal finance classes don't work. People who have taken personal finance classes in school don't appear to make better financial choices as adults than people who didn't take personal finance classes.
In Quebec I had a personal finance class in 5th grade. The only thing I absolutely remember is that because of this class I never once paid interest on my credit cards lol. The teacher drilled this topic in our heads, he told us that when we will get a credit cards we need to take care of the balance every months.
Haha honestly the first few years I used my CC I was thinking about those guys being like "I thought it was free money now my life is ruined."
Honestly it did help me a lot understanding about a lot of things but its mostly because this teacher was great and was sharing with us all the mistakes he did in his life haha.
I think this is because good personal finance outcomes have more to do with habits than knowledge. Financial wellness works a lot like weight management - people don't maintain a healthy weight by consuming books about the science of nutrition, and people don't save and invest successfully by being taught the intricacies of investment products and tax rules. These are areas where daily routines matter more than depth of knowledge.
I disagree. Weight management fundamentally comes down to calories in vs calories out, for example (I'm oversimplifying, but not incorrect in my statement). Similarly, my having healthy financial routines kept me out of debt, but lack of knowledge of products and tax rules made it so I only ever invested in GICs.
I strongly feel that the basics of personal finance should be taught in economics classes (because really, how useful are economics classes without financial knowledge once you complete that class?). To go back to your analogy of fostering healthy habits, one still needs to be taught what habits are healthy.
>I disagree. Weight management fundamentally comes down to calories in vs calories out, for example
This does not disagree with my statement.
Weight management is driven mostly by calories in vs. calories out, but CICO is driven more by habits than it is by knowledge. If you go find 100 people with a healthy weight, and ask them each to tell you how many calories they consumer and burn each day to within 100 calories, I think less than 10% would know. It just doesn't work for MOST people to diligently track each and every calorie day by day. Most people who try give up after a week or two.
The same is true of saving and investing - while outcomes do "fundamentally come down to" savings rates and rates of return, the successful people are MOSTLY the people who have a good relationship with money, don't have the habits of impulsive spending and wasteful splurges, who set up automatic transfers to investing accounts, and don't try to do a lot of detailed analysis about which stock to buy. This, like weight loss, is driven more by habitual behaviors than diligent calculation and knowledge building.
I know it sounds unintuitive but behavioral stuff is like this. There are certain parts of life, mostly the things that seem to confound people terribly, where habit forming dominates intensive study. This is a really important insight that can save a lot of people a lot of misery.
I think it's a prioritization exercise undertaken by Provincial/Territorial governments. Do I think it would be great to integrate it into math/other courses? Yes. Do I think it should be a mandatory standalone class? Depends on what you want to cut.
I had to take one in high school years ago. But my friends and I didn't really take it seriously and saw it as a free class. I didn't take away much from that class, and it's my own fault. The teacher definitely had some good info he was trying to share. I think you have to be somewhat prepared to receive the info given. Like when I tell my kids to be careful as we cross the road and be aware of surroundings, that's life-saving info, but they say "ya we know" and then want to run right towards the road without paying attention.
The Ontario Mathematics Curriculum was revised in 2020. Every grade of mathematics includes financial literacy expectations that students must achieve. Here:
[https://www.dcp.edu.gov.on.ca/en/curriculum/elementary-mathematics/grades/g7-math/strands#strand-f](https://www.dcp.edu.gov.on.ca/en/curriculum/elementary-mathematics/grades/g7-math/strands#strand-f)
F1.1 identify and compare exchange rates, and convert foreign currencies to Canadian dollars and vice versa
F1.2 identify and describe various reliable sources of information that can help with planning for and reaching a financial goal
F1.3 create, track, and adjust sample budgets designed to meet longer-term financial goals for various scenarios
F1.4 identify various societal and personal factors that may influence financial decision making, and describe the effects that each might have
F1.5 explain how interest rates can impact savings, investments, and the cost of borrowing to pay for goods and services over time
F1.6 compare interest rates and fees for different accounts and loans offered by various financial institutions, and determine the best option for different scenarios
I teach Grade 7. This myth that financial literacy is not in education has been propagated for years. Even before the revision of the curriculum, there were (and still are) plenty of courses in high school that discuss financial literacy, such as MCF3M and MEL3E or MEL4E.
Well, you know they did teach us basic math. So when some people were still clueless about where their money goes, or that they must try to spend less than how much they earn (none of which requires personal finance knowledge), maybe the school boards figured that education isn't doing much for people. So what would they get by teaching personal finance then?
I think there's more to it than just saying that government didn't teach X. Curiosity and critical thinking go a long way. Information is available for free.
I would guess it depends on your province since they set the curriculum. I couldn't graduate without taking a course called "Career And Life Management". I think we had to do mock budgets, learn about compound interest etc... and of course, carry around a screaming robot baby for three days. not sure how much it helped me/us lol but it existed
also not sure why you had to put in what seems to be a transphobic dig in this post but ok
This gets asked every few weeks and people chime in that their school has one
Personally I don't think it's that useful to have people learn something at 16, which they probably won't use till they're 24. Also, finance trends change all the time, good luck trying to keep that up in textbooks and teachers.
I had a 17 yr old colleague who saved and invested his earnings. We used to work at a supermarket at the time. He knew more about money that most adults I ever met. Kid was so SMART with money! He knew about money from his parents. Family had good money habits. Its just one of things you either get from your family or you learn on your own. Schools cant properly teach you
It doesn't sound like they had much money if the kid was working in the supermarket. Problem when financing is that there's risk involved, and you can't teach how you'd handle it.
The thing is, I know him more than you lol He was 16/17 and at home. The kid was working because a lot of kids work part time jobs. This is Canada. I dont know why you made that comment about his family being poor just because he was working. Not sure where you're from but plenty of people work while in high school and College regardless of their parents financial situation. And he was living at home, not like he was paying $2,000 a month rent. He was keeping his money.
He obviously wasnt investing on his own. He had someone professional. Another former colleague had 20k from her desceased father when was 20 years old. She took it straight to a professional to invest it instead of blowing it. Not all young people are clueless about life and money.
No, he was a regular investor in the stock market. We used to talk about that stuff. Also, if a 16 yr old saves money for education, thats really great too
> finance trends change all the time, good luck trying to keep that up in textbooks and teachers.
There are financial literary fundamentals that do not change with time. For example:
* Making a budget: knowing how much money comes in, how much goes out and where it is spent
* Borrowing money: credit cards/line of credit/loans: how they work, interest rates and paying back what you owe
* Chequing/savings accounts: how they work
* Saving for the future: TFSAs, RRSPs, and other options
What's the correct way to make a budget? Are you to grade based on how much you should spend on entertainment vs food? What's your lesson on borrowing money? People leverage money all the time, we have daily reddit threads arguing over investing vs paying down the mortgage. And we have new investment vehicles line crypto and FHSA that would take too long to get into the curriculum.
Finance is too opinionated to be taught in an objective way, it's not an exact science you can grade people against. That's why I'm not for teaching it.
> What's the correct way to make a budget? Are you to grade based on how much you should spend on entertainment vs food?
Making a basic budget is not rocket science. You list how much money you have coming in after taxes, minus how much money you spend: if you spend more than you make, you're in trouble and need to review your budget.
And the mere exercise of listing what you spend money on and tracking it can help you find opportunities to save or improve your finances. Speaking from experience, reviewing my budget made me realize how much money I spent buying lunch at work, starting making my own and voila, saved about $300 a month.
>What's your lesson on borrowing money?
I was referring to teaching the properties and differences between borrowing tools such as credit cards/lines of credit/loans.
For example, I've met a shocking number of people that do not understand that in order to avoid paying interest you have to pay a credit card's balance in full in or before the due date. They think that making the minimum payment means no interest will be charged. Ohboy.
And let's not get into doing credit card cash advances.
every time i read one of these “they should teach x in school” posts i just think “when did these people go to school?”. almost all of these posts ive seen are about things already taught in schools
I’ve always wondered this. I learned so many useless things in grade school that I’ve never needed to apply, at least some basic personal finance skills classes with more as an option would’ve been so useful. I didn’t even know how a credit card worked when I graduated, my parents had to teach me that.
How else do you keep most people poor? I see people who make 100k+ a year and are poor af...and all I can wonder is HOW. Its because they dont even know the real purpose of money.
For many of us, money is something we earn/must earn (or somehow get) to live. Thats it. Most of our time is spent just trying to get enough for the basic expenses. And then the rest, we blow away.
Most people have what I call "an emotionally abusive relationship" with money. Most of us are taught that crap through generations and generations. We are also taught to scramble for it and at the same time, feel ashamed to think and talk about money, and also to hate money. Budgeting, saving, watching our spending etc is considered "boring". Say you win the lottery or get a salary increase, or somehow get your hands on extra $$$, and you decide to save it instead of spending it. You decide to keep the same/similar lifestyle. Drive the same vehicle, stay in the same place etc, because there really isnt need to do otherwise. People will ask you if you're crazy and why are you such a boring miser. Because thats how it is.
We are constantly brainwashed into wasting our money. The world has been designed to separate you from your money by any means. And we have accepted it.
Also, Money management should be taught at home more than at schools, because its all mentality, habits, and lifestyle. Schools cant teach you that stuff 100%.
I remember a couple components of personal finance education as a student (Alberta Public System, graduation 2022).
* Grade 9 - A one day course with at the local college with some accounting students walking us through what a personal budget was.
* Grade 10 - We had a one-semester course called Career and Life Management (CALM) it involved a bunch of things to start prepping young adults for the world, including putting together a household budget, building a resume, health items (sex ed, drugs, healthy habits) etc.
* Math 20 (Grade 11) - There was a personal finance unit, that was very brief.
Now as a CPA who is passionate about personal finance I struggle with the notion of how to introduce it to people. Like a lot of things, personal finance is something you kind of need to experience to begin to care about and pursue. A sixteen year-old who has never held a job, doesn't have essential expenses isn't going to get a lot out of putting together an imaginary household budget, because they don't actually know how they spend money. The notion of investing is even more foreign.
I think teaching teenagers about finance needs to come from home, because that's where practical elements come into play.
* Some avenue for the child to have their own money. Perhaps as an allowance early on. But certainly by encouraging part-time work when they their teenage years.
* A hard line on what parents pay for and what the teenager will pay for (e.g. their own entertainment, eating out with friends, game consoles, etc.)
* Setting them up with a bank account that will earn some interest (or maybe, given savings accounts rates up until very recently, this can be supplemented by the parent) to learn the value of leaving surplus cash alone in an "investment" vehicle.
* Requiring young adults to move out, or at least pay rent.
In my opinion, trying to put together an imaginary household budget, won't teach someone as much about saving their cash as finding they won't be able to go out with their friends at the end of the month, because they spent all of their cash on a new outfit at the beginning of the month.
Because we're too busy with far more important mandatory classes. From personal experience, Square Dancing, fumbling with a baritone saxophone in Band Class, and an uplifting semester on First Nations History come to mind. Glory days, baby.
Because they don't roll them out with any teeth. IE, they're usually easier to pass than a basket weaving class.
Honestly, the idea that anyone is afraid of getting a raise for 'falling into a higher tax bracket' or that 40 year olds don't understand what a f\*ckin' RRSP is - is an indictment on our education system.
I remember having to take a 'CAPP' class, Career and Personal Planning. It was an easy A - you just had to parrot back maxims from the teacher. You didn't have to understand anything. You didn't hve to fill out a government form. Hell - even applying for a student loan and calculating how much interest you'd pay over the life of it, would have been a useful process - but now, we were asked to creat 'five year plans'. I chose to become an Australian bodybuilder. I drew a picture of me in a pickup truck with a kangaroo and got an A. This was a 12th year class.
It's insane that we don't have this, tbh.
There is a reasonable amount of evidence that personal finance classes don't work. People who have taken personal finance classes in school don't appear to make better financial choices as adults than people who didn't take personal finance classes. On the other hand teaching more math in school does appear to result in people making better financial choices as adults. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/04/23/more-states-are-forcing-students-study-personal-finance-its-waste-time/
>There is a reasonable amount of evidence that personal finance classes don't work. People who have taken personal finance classes in school don't appear to make better financial choices as adults than people who didn't take personal finance classes. In Quebec I had a personal finance class in 5th grade. The only thing I absolutely remember is that because of this class I never once paid interest on my credit cards lol. The teacher drilled this topic in our heads, he told us that when we will get a credit cards we need to take care of the balance every months.
Honestly, if that's the only personal finance lesson someone took away from a class on the topic, the topic is probably worth it!
Haha honestly the first few years I used my CC I was thinking about those guys being like "I thought it was free money now my life is ruined." Honestly it did help me a lot understanding about a lot of things but its mostly because this teacher was great and was sharing with us all the mistakes he did in his life haha.
I think this is because good personal finance outcomes have more to do with habits than knowledge. Financial wellness works a lot like weight management - people don't maintain a healthy weight by consuming books about the science of nutrition, and people don't save and invest successfully by being taught the intricacies of investment products and tax rules. These are areas where daily routines matter more than depth of knowledge.
I disagree. Weight management fundamentally comes down to calories in vs calories out, for example (I'm oversimplifying, but not incorrect in my statement). Similarly, my having healthy financial routines kept me out of debt, but lack of knowledge of products and tax rules made it so I only ever invested in GICs. I strongly feel that the basics of personal finance should be taught in economics classes (because really, how useful are economics classes without financial knowledge once you complete that class?). To go back to your analogy of fostering healthy habits, one still needs to be taught what habits are healthy.
>I disagree. Weight management fundamentally comes down to calories in vs calories out, for example This does not disagree with my statement. Weight management is driven mostly by calories in vs. calories out, but CICO is driven more by habits than it is by knowledge. If you go find 100 people with a healthy weight, and ask them each to tell you how many calories they consumer and burn each day to within 100 calories, I think less than 10% would know. It just doesn't work for MOST people to diligently track each and every calorie day by day. Most people who try give up after a week or two. The same is true of saving and investing - while outcomes do "fundamentally come down to" savings rates and rates of return, the successful people are MOSTLY the people who have a good relationship with money, don't have the habits of impulsive spending and wasteful splurges, who set up automatic transfers to investing accounts, and don't try to do a lot of detailed analysis about which stock to buy. This, like weight loss, is driven more by habitual behaviors than diligent calculation and knowledge building. I know it sounds unintuitive but behavioral stuff is like this. There are certain parts of life, mostly the things that seem to confound people terribly, where habit forming dominates intensive study. This is a really important insight that can save a lot of people a lot of misery.
I think it's a prioritization exercise undertaken by Provincial/Territorial governments. Do I think it would be great to integrate it into math/other courses? Yes. Do I think it should be a mandatory standalone class? Depends on what you want to cut.
I had to take one in high school years ago. But my friends and I didn't really take it seriously and saw it as a free class. I didn't take away much from that class, and it's my own fault. The teacher definitely had some good info he was trying to share. I think you have to be somewhat prepared to receive the info given. Like when I tell my kids to be careful as we cross the road and be aware of surroundings, that's life-saving info, but they say "ya we know" and then want to run right towards the road without paying attention.
The Ontario Mathematics Curriculum was revised in 2020. Every grade of mathematics includes financial literacy expectations that students must achieve. Here: [https://www.dcp.edu.gov.on.ca/en/curriculum/elementary-mathematics/grades/g7-math/strands#strand-f](https://www.dcp.edu.gov.on.ca/en/curriculum/elementary-mathematics/grades/g7-math/strands#strand-f) F1.1 identify and compare exchange rates, and convert foreign currencies to Canadian dollars and vice versa F1.2 identify and describe various reliable sources of information that can help with planning for and reaching a financial goal F1.3 create, track, and adjust sample budgets designed to meet longer-term financial goals for various scenarios F1.4 identify various societal and personal factors that may influence financial decision making, and describe the effects that each might have F1.5 explain how interest rates can impact savings, investments, and the cost of borrowing to pay for goods and services over time F1.6 compare interest rates and fees for different accounts and loans offered by various financial institutions, and determine the best option for different scenarios I teach Grade 7. This myth that financial literacy is not in education has been propagated for years. Even before the revision of the curriculum, there were (and still are) plenty of courses in high school that discuss financial literacy, such as MCF3M and MEL3E or MEL4E.
Well, you know they did teach us basic math. So when some people were still clueless about where their money goes, or that they must try to spend less than how much they earn (none of which requires personal finance knowledge), maybe the school boards figured that education isn't doing much for people. So what would they get by teaching personal finance then? I think there's more to it than just saying that government didn't teach X. Curiosity and critical thinking go a long way. Information is available for free.
I would guess it depends on your province since they set the curriculum. I couldn't graduate without taking a course called "Career And Life Management". I think we had to do mock budgets, learn about compound interest etc... and of course, carry around a screaming robot baby for three days. not sure how much it helped me/us lol but it existed also not sure why you had to put in what seems to be a transphobic dig in this post but ok
This gets asked every few weeks and people chime in that their school has one Personally I don't think it's that useful to have people learn something at 16, which they probably won't use till they're 24. Also, finance trends change all the time, good luck trying to keep that up in textbooks and teachers.
I had a 17 yr old colleague who saved and invested his earnings. We used to work at a supermarket at the time. He knew more about money that most adults I ever met. Kid was so SMART with money! He knew about money from his parents. Family had good money habits. Its just one of things you either get from your family or you learn on your own. Schools cant properly teach you
It doesn't sound like they had much money if the kid was working in the supermarket. Problem when financing is that there's risk involved, and you can't teach how you'd handle it.
The thing is, I know him more than you lol He was 16/17 and at home. The kid was working because a lot of kids work part time jobs. This is Canada. I dont know why you made that comment about his family being poor just because he was working. Not sure where you're from but plenty of people work while in high school and College regardless of their parents financial situation. And he was living at home, not like he was paying $2,000 a month rent. He was keeping his money. He obviously wasnt investing on his own. He had someone professional. Another former colleague had 20k from her desceased father when was 20 years old. She took it straight to a professional to invest it instead of blowing it. Not all young people are clueless about life and money.
You know this sub is all about not trusting the professionals
Perhaps he was saving for post-secondary education?
No, he was a regular investor in the stock market. We used to talk about that stuff. Also, if a 16 yr old saves money for education, thats really great too
> finance trends change all the time, good luck trying to keep that up in textbooks and teachers. There are financial literary fundamentals that do not change with time. For example: * Making a budget: knowing how much money comes in, how much goes out and where it is spent * Borrowing money: credit cards/line of credit/loans: how they work, interest rates and paying back what you owe * Chequing/savings accounts: how they work * Saving for the future: TFSAs, RRSPs, and other options
What's the correct way to make a budget? Are you to grade based on how much you should spend on entertainment vs food? What's your lesson on borrowing money? People leverage money all the time, we have daily reddit threads arguing over investing vs paying down the mortgage. And we have new investment vehicles line crypto and FHSA that would take too long to get into the curriculum. Finance is too opinionated to be taught in an objective way, it's not an exact science you can grade people against. That's why I'm not for teaching it.
> What's the correct way to make a budget? Are you to grade based on how much you should spend on entertainment vs food? Making a basic budget is not rocket science. You list how much money you have coming in after taxes, minus how much money you spend: if you spend more than you make, you're in trouble and need to review your budget. And the mere exercise of listing what you spend money on and tracking it can help you find opportunities to save or improve your finances. Speaking from experience, reviewing my budget made me realize how much money I spent buying lunch at work, starting making my own and voila, saved about $300 a month. >What's your lesson on borrowing money? I was referring to teaching the properties and differences between borrowing tools such as credit cards/lines of credit/loans. For example, I've met a shocking number of people that do not understand that in order to avoid paying interest you have to pay a credit card's balance in full in or before the due date. They think that making the minimum payment means no interest will be charged. Ohboy. And let's not get into doing credit card cash advances.
They are. Next question.
every time i read one of these “they should teach x in school” posts i just think “when did these people go to school?”. almost all of these posts ive seen are about things already taught in schools
Keep the world dumb and in debt… easier for politicians to control
And for banks and financials advisors to drain our money.
Right on the money
Because the dumber we are with our money, the more the government can take from us ;)
True! Ironically, however, the opposite is truer. The smarter we are with out money, the more they have the chance to tax us on it.
That's what your parents are for.
I’ve always wondered this. I learned so many useless things in grade school that I’ve never needed to apply, at least some basic personal finance skills classes with more as an option would’ve been so useful. I didn’t even know how a credit card worked when I graduated, my parents had to teach me that.
How else do you keep most people poor? I see people who make 100k+ a year and are poor af...and all I can wonder is HOW. Its because they dont even know the real purpose of money. For many of us, money is something we earn/must earn (or somehow get) to live. Thats it. Most of our time is spent just trying to get enough for the basic expenses. And then the rest, we blow away. Most people have what I call "an emotionally abusive relationship" with money. Most of us are taught that crap through generations and generations. We are also taught to scramble for it and at the same time, feel ashamed to think and talk about money, and also to hate money. Budgeting, saving, watching our spending etc is considered "boring". Say you win the lottery or get a salary increase, or somehow get your hands on extra $$$, and you decide to save it instead of spending it. You decide to keep the same/similar lifestyle. Drive the same vehicle, stay in the same place etc, because there really isnt need to do otherwise. People will ask you if you're crazy and why are you such a boring miser. Because thats how it is. We are constantly brainwashed into wasting our money. The world has been designed to separate you from your money by any means. And we have accepted it. Also, Money management should be taught at home more than at schools, because its all mentality, habits, and lifestyle. Schools cant teach you that stuff 100%.
Why? The majority of elected politicians in this country are fiscally ignorant and irresponsible.
I remember a couple components of personal finance education as a student (Alberta Public System, graduation 2022). * Grade 9 - A one day course with at the local college with some accounting students walking us through what a personal budget was. * Grade 10 - We had a one-semester course called Career and Life Management (CALM) it involved a bunch of things to start prepping young adults for the world, including putting together a household budget, building a resume, health items (sex ed, drugs, healthy habits) etc. * Math 20 (Grade 11) - There was a personal finance unit, that was very brief. Now as a CPA who is passionate about personal finance I struggle with the notion of how to introduce it to people. Like a lot of things, personal finance is something you kind of need to experience to begin to care about and pursue. A sixteen year-old who has never held a job, doesn't have essential expenses isn't going to get a lot out of putting together an imaginary household budget, because they don't actually know how they spend money. The notion of investing is even more foreign. I think teaching teenagers about finance needs to come from home, because that's where practical elements come into play. * Some avenue for the child to have their own money. Perhaps as an allowance early on. But certainly by encouraging part-time work when they their teenage years. * A hard line on what parents pay for and what the teenager will pay for (e.g. their own entertainment, eating out with friends, game consoles, etc.) * Setting them up with a bank account that will earn some interest (or maybe, given savings accounts rates up until very recently, this can be supplemented by the parent) to learn the value of leaving surplus cash alone in an "investment" vehicle. * Requiring young adults to move out, or at least pay rent. In my opinion, trying to put together an imaginary household budget, won't teach someone as much about saving their cash as finding they won't be able to go out with their friends at the end of the month, because they spent all of their cash on a new outfit at the beginning of the month.
More useful than 1/2 of my high school classes back when I was a kid.
Because we're too busy with far more important mandatory classes. From personal experience, Square Dancing, fumbling with a baritone saxophone in Band Class, and an uplifting semester on First Nations History come to mind. Glory days, baby.
Because they don't roll them out with any teeth. IE, they're usually easier to pass than a basket weaving class. Honestly, the idea that anyone is afraid of getting a raise for 'falling into a higher tax bracket' or that 40 year olds don't understand what a f\*ckin' RRSP is - is an indictment on our education system. I remember having to take a 'CAPP' class, Career and Personal Planning. It was an easy A - you just had to parrot back maxims from the teacher. You didn't have to understand anything. You didn't hve to fill out a government form. Hell - even applying for a student loan and calculating how much interest you'd pay over the life of it, would have been a useful process - but now, we were asked to creat 'five year plans'. I chose to become an Australian bodybuilder. I drew a picture of me in a pickup truck with a kangaroo and got an A. This was a 12th year class. It's insane that we don't have this, tbh.
Nobody owes you shit.
No one asked for anything, shithead