T O P
susinpgh

Wait a minute, isn't testing for listeria in milk regulated Federally under the USDA? Wouldn't that cover ice cream, too?


TimeFortean

Yes, her [statement from June](https://senatorjudyward.com/2022/06/06/ward-senate-approves-frozen-dessert-law-update/) says as much.


susinpgh

I don't understand, this can't supersede federal guidelines, right? WTF?


[deleted]

I think that milk is tested at a different step in the process. They must have to test again at the "frozen dessert" factory.


susinpgh

I haven't had a chance to look into this from the federal guidelines, to see how this fits in with what she is trying to repeal. Temperature is a kill-point for most micros, though, right? But is that the same for high and low temps? Hmm. Maybe I should check in at r/foodsafety.


SpecificMundane8318

low temps don't kill bacteria (usually). we store bacteria in the lab at -70 C


[deleted]

They turn into suspended animation


susinpgh

Okay, so that means it doesn't kill micros. So, cold temp is not a kill step, right? And if a plant is receiving milk/cream to make into ice cream, than they should be testing for micros, because cold isn't a kill step. Right? Okay, but I still need to look up the state legislation that this rep is trying to overturn. And here's the law question: if the Federal guidelines have been met, does that supersede more stringent state guidelines?


Charirner

> So, cold temp is not a kill step, right? Correct, all cold temperatures do is slow down the growth/spread of bacteria. Things still go bad in a fridge or freezer just at a much slower rate then if you left them out at room temperature.


teachmenature

In milk yes, but this is to test the machines at shops to make aure they're cleaning them properly. Bacteria can grow fast. Listeria loves dark, cold, wet environments, like ice cream machines and grocery vegetable misters.


kworkbos

as always, this will cost much more than saved. Listeria infections are WAY down because we do test. Now they're probably saying 'there are far fewer poisonings, so why do we continue to test?"


mtnmadness84

Once upon a time I worked in a USDA monitored meat packing facility—and a very good one at that. Their microbiology program was impressive for the size of the operation, and listeria was always—lurking—they would get a lot of positives in the drains. Every once in a while a floor would test positive. And the food safe surfaces never failed. The good news is, you test if your end product is going to make people sick, because recalls ruin companies. Well and lawsuits.


teachmenature

Exactly but companies that don't test rigorously, don't have to recall their product. It's a gamble on the consumer's health.


Reynolds_Live

"The more testing you do the more results you get. If you stop testing, cases go down" - Trump.


Wild_type

"Throwing out preclearance when it has worked and is continuing to work to stop discriminatory changes is like throwing away your umbrella in a rainstorm because you are not getting wet." - RBG


bdschuler

You will now have the freedom to get food poisoning. Still working on freedom not to have healthcare. Thank the good reps looking out for ?


Hugh_Jass_2

Senator Judy Ward is the bill sponsor. Follow the money


PM_SOME_OBESE_CATS

Pretty sure she used to be a nurse so wtf is she doing??


Hugh_Jass_2

Yeah, she was and I was wondering that too. Who’s jamming money in her pocket? The dairy council? Is there a farm collective?


teachmenature

Pressure from the overseeing agency responsible for enforcing and reviewing the testing.


IamChantus

Remember that nurses were, in droves, going against public health measures during Covid. Masking, social distancing. Perhaps droves was too strong, but it was certainly enough to be concerning. Especially for health care professionals.


truemeliorist

Nurses aren't doctors. Many are dumb as rocks. There's no shortage of antivax nurses (well, there's a lot fewer of them than there were 2 years ago at least, but still too many). Many barely passed their science and bio prerequisites but still managed to get degrees. A lot of nurses in the field were also grandfathered in from a time when you could basically take a tech school program, and get a job at a hospital and get trained there in their in-house nursing program. No degree or college education required, but the training wasn't transferrable to other hospitals. My MIL was one of those nurses. They're starting to age out now.


teachmenature

I don't know if any of you have ever cleaned an ice cream machine, but there are a lot of parts to disassemble, sanitize, and reassemble. Bacteria can thrive in any of those parts get scratched, stretched, or cracked. If the calcium from the ice cream is allowed to build up, bacteria will live in there too. Testing makes sure the machine is clean, not the mix.


Jiveturkwy158

This is alarmist, but not entirely wrong either. Listeria and ecoli testing are required by FDA, as they can grow in facilities and not necessarily come in through the products. In 2016 there were many restrictions added for food manufacturers. I’m not sure at what threshold a place is subject to those laws, likely an in-house homemade ice cream shop that doesn’t package to sell in store wouldn’t be subject to the same stuff frito-lay (my old employer) was. Reading the bill it is for frozen desserts sold in restaurants, and to test annually vs monthly. All ingredients to make desserts would have been purchased from a food manufacturer subject to FSMA. This doesn’t change milk needing to be pasteurized. And doesn’t change other standards of a kitchen under the health code. Testing for harmful bacteria is particularly important when there is no kill step (cooking). Frankly I’m not sure if monthly testing is overly burdensome for an ice cream shop, as is the justification. It may well be. I am unaware of what frequency coolers need to be sanitized etc to make that judgment. This justifies doing research and determining if it is a big deal to you and calling your rep. However OP’s headline is alarmist at best. Ice cream you buy in a store, or from a place selling out of 5 gal buckets will still be tested and is safe. The testing is for the restaurant in which it is sold.


susinpgh

Yeah, I think some of the issue may be for stuff in restaurants. That's usually not covered in state- or federal- guidelines, but is covered on a county level. I still haven't had a chance to pull up the 1965 legislation that the rep is trying to overturn, so I am not sure what exactly is being addressed by this legislation. There is a movement in the allergen community to establish some sort of guidelines for restaurants. Totally tangled and hard-to-track arena for food safety issue.


Jiveturkwy158

From what I skimmed it legit was testing listeria once a year vs once a month. I can’t really say if that’s enough/too much, but I’m surprised they have to test monthly. Depending on what allergens they are pushing to mitigate that can be a nightmare to handle. Properly labeling menu items and common sense stuff not so much, but really depends on what gets pushed for.


teachmenature

If anyone is interested in seeing the "data" where they derived this information, file a Right to Know Request for soft serve ice cream bacteria results with the Department of Agriculture. Ask to see the last year of results.


teachmenature

https://www.openrecords.pa.gov/RTKL/CitizensGuide.cfm


hashtagbob60

Another example of our "representatives" doing something to us rather than for us.


teachmenature

That's a great way to put it. The people gain no benefit to this if it passes.


hashtagbob60

Thanks, that's one of my constant laments anymore - I've got dozens.


teachmenature

I could see them arguing that it will "save the taxpayers money" but it's not like the Department of Ag will layoff people because of this... and our taxes certainly won't decrease, nor will the budget for the dept decrease either. It's all a farce.


Alternative-Flan2869

More insane anti general health courtesy of the ignoramuses in the gqp.


[deleted]

If that passes no more ice cream for me. Especially vulnerable milk shake mix, soft serve. Turning us into a back water. Pesky regulations & cleanliness.


tinacat933

Yea can we not give everyone listeria please… https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending/listeria-found-florida-ice-cream-factory-state-orders-shutdown/NLPYH5J6O5GAPNYUW55FL47GAA/


RightfulChaos

What purpose does this serve? Who benefits from getting rid of testing?


DiaDoo

From her cosponsor memo, it appears that the monthly testing is burdensome to a business in her district. Decreasing the requirements to annual testing would benefit the company and others in the dairy industry. I do not agree with this legislation, but this seems to be a “red tape” argument from Judy.


teachmenature

Department of Agriculture does have to oversee the program anymore. They gave up caring about it years ago because that's the real burden.


Lil_Phantoms_Lawyer

The restaurants that don't have to test their inventory every month.


Reynolds_Live

It'll get reversed the instant a government official that voted for it gets listeria. These representatives man. smh.


CelestineCrystal

best to avoid dairy and other animal products. they’re downright horrible for animals, but also pretty bad for human health and the environment


Illustrious_Air_1438

Based


Conquer_All

Goddamn big guvment strangling these small businesses with their “quality assurance regulations” STOP TREADING ON ME!!!


hemiones

Not a fan of Ward, but this makes a lot of sense. Monthly testing on top of the regular testing from the PA Board of Health is burdensome. Especially if the business has to pay the entire cost. The standards for frozen equipment and management are the same for both regulating places so why the extra checks for a specific type of prepared food? This wouldn’t make the land of ice cream parlors operating like they’re in the Wild West.


Hopeful_Scholar398

I work in food processing. I'm guessing they are required to test so often because their processing equipment probably has high potential to harbor and spread bacteria.


Prepperpoints2Ponder

I'm guessing the individual company's process authority will require it regardless of what the state requires.


the_real_xuth

Why would you trust this? We have [lots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls) of [examples](https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/news/20171102/can-you-trust-the-labels-on-your-supplements) of [businesses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Big_Branch_Mine_disaster) putting [profits](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire) over [people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_infant_formula_shortage#Recall_and_plant_shutdown) due to lax or nonexistent regulations.


Hopeful_Scholar398

I'm not sure if HACCP plans are standardized for what they do or if it is individualized but I'd bet it states it somewhere in that plan.


Prepperpoints2Ponder

No HACCP plan is standardized per se. You build it off the equipment and what you are producing. HACCP plans are critical control points on the equipment itself. Think time, temperature, backflow prevention, things like that. Things like Bac T's, Ph, bio load, etc. Are separate. Some are done on the raw material (like checking for listeria) on the supply side, others are on your finished goods. If, say, your Ph is strayed too far off your standard, you have a problem. There is a whole method we use to calculate these standards that involves a whole lot of testing of product. More simply, it's a PITA when any of these numbers isn't what it should be. (Sobs in QA).


teachmenature

The Dept of Health does not do testing at facilities.


hemiones

Your right I should have said inspections. Oops. Lol


decrementsf

Translating the headline: "PANIC! DO THIS NOW!" Why? You've got people jumping through hoops to find raw milk not getting listeria. Deep studies into the political nature of the listeria panic when large corporations spun up to monopolize the market. It's extraordinary to find locations where sanitation is so poor that it becomes an issue, usually in larger industrial operations. Headline is using persuasion words. Public is primed to knee-jerk on the word listeria from past headlines. Pushing brain buttons with words is not an argument. A half-pinion is discussion of only the benefits, or only the costs, of an issue. In this story we get less than that, not even a half-pinion. Credibility at minimum requires the full opinion, an argument that includes treatment of both benefits and costs. I'm open to hearing the full story here. Can't do anything with hand waiving quackery alone. Don't care about the snake oil on the cart without more information.


beeps-n-boops

This must be part of the de-regulation the GOP is constantly advocating for. They don't give a fuck about anything other than funneling cash into their corporate donors' pockets... which, in turn, will find its way into theirs. Public safety be damned. It's like they don't want to acknowledge that the last 200 years of progress actually happened.