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Saedeas

It applies after resists. Transcendence works the same way and Mark also confirmed it in a thread earlier today.


POEgamegenie

“But it doesn’t matter because one shots” So many people are forgetting that most deaths actually come from multiple mid hits which is another reason why this ascendancy point is quite good. Most of the true one shots in PoE are very avoidable and not that common unless you do things on purpose to make something extremely rippy. Whereas several mid hits happening within 1 second are very very common.


swords_meow

There's a thread on the main subreddit, and if I read it correctly, it sounds like it's after resists but before suppression.


aSurlyBird

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wg8y6e/when_does_spell_suppression_happen_in_the_damage/iizvrke/ looks like armour is applied after resistance, and would therefore apply its 8% effect after resistances are applied edit - i'd just check out that thread to get some neat info from mark, and maybe check out mark's history of posting for this kind of info


LoL-Guru

Thanks. Makes the Ascendancy passive quite good then


aSurlyBird

I mean, sure. But Jugg ascendency passives together are shit. There are multiple ascendencies that give just as much defense but additionally give offence. Jugg has been kinda bad because as much defense as it gives, it lacks in offence. Your cup of tea though.


Porcupine_Tree

Yep. The issue with jugg is dps to be honest


psychomap

[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/gww68s/comment/fsxqtk1/?context=10)'s a more generic quote from Mark that doesn't specify Transcendence (althogh it was brought up in the context of Transcendence). Even at 90% resistance, you need to have 25 times as much armour as the incoming elemental damage in order for 8% of your armour to reduce it by 80% to reach the 98% you mentioned. Against small damage hits that may be doable, but if you reached 90% resistance you didn't really notice those anyway.


doorholder1

The real take from marks comments was that the actual op thing with this is splitting the incoming elemental damage to more than 1 (with talisman or new purity jewels or tempered war). This will make armour apply to all different damage types separately which means the hit values armour has to deal with are much much smaller. This interaction will reduce your magic number of 25 by a lot making this the most overpowered defense layer ever when coupled with a bit of conversion.


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psychomap

I think the issue is that you're talking about a 5k hit post resistances to begin with. Even without any investment into maximum resistances that's a 20k damage hit, and those aren't *that* common. Once the actual mitigation is higher, the effect of splitting that damage is higher as well. If you go from having 10 times as much armour as the mitigated damage to 20 times, your EHP against that improves by \~66.7% (in the case of this notable, 8% of your armour would need to be 10 times as high as the post-resistance damage, so you'd need considerable investment into maximum resistances for this to actually be a regular occurrence). But both my example and yours are cherry-picked to prove a point. I do agree with you that it's not the most overpowered defence layer ever, since it was literally possible to stack reduced damage taken to 100%. And it was possible to stack resistances to 100% at some point (idk if before or after), and a bunch of other immunity builds have existed over the years. At the very least, Transcendence is obviously a more powerful version of it, though it requires significant investment if you don't stop at a Loreweave.


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psychomap

You need a ton of armour to do anything significant against damage that would otherwise oneshot you regardless of what mechanic you're using or even if it's physical damage. Unless you're playing Hardcore, onehits are not the only concern. Plus most cases of perceived onehits are actually several consecutive hits which are mitigated by armour much more effectively.


ww_crimson

What actually hits for 20k pre mitigation? Sirus fire beam is like 5k isn't it?


DeouVI

There are basically no 20k hits outside of ubers tho. Maven slam is the biggest single ele hit without pen I could find outside of ubers, and that's 13k iirc. It's also not at all difficult to get 85-90 max res on a marauder.


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DeouVI

I feel like we play the game very differently then, because I generally don't really die while doing bosses - their attacks are fairly easy to dodge. Most of my deaths are while mapping, since maps often have mobs spamming attacks at you and it's not impossible to take what's probably over 200k worth of ele damage in small hits within a second. What's more jugg already had excellent phys and chaos mitigation, tthe jugg weakness was ele mit. As it is currently vast majority of jugg deaths are almost certainly to ele damage, and ele armour is going to help massively with that. I feel like you are undervaluing the mitigation of series of small hits and dismissing it as "I purposefully chose that because, generally speaking, the primary purpose of mitigation in PoE (compared to avoidance) is to prevent oneshots". There are a lot of deaths that happen while mapping because suddenly a large pack of mobs each sent 1k damage each your way and you didn't move away in time. For those scenarios ele armour be worth a fuckton, and it's just one of two affixes on an ascendancy - it doesn't cost you -res, a timeless jewel and entirety of your phys armour. Defensively I doubt there are many strongest notables for average play (50k armour, 80% max res), and with anything endgame worthy (100-150k armour, or armour stacking up to 1 mil with 90% max res) it's basically better transcendence.


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DeouVI

>Those scenarios you mention can be avoided by proper movement just as much as large hits, so you're just arguing based on your personal (lack of) gameplay here. Sure, all deaths can be avoided with proper movement. But we still die.


Tehnomaag

That is a \*base\* hit. Sprinkle it with various map mods and I'm pretty sure it can reach north of 20k easily with various "increased" and "added" damage mods. Although the one shots are mostly a result of citicals plus some nasty additional mods and/or some defense layers failing just the right way for one reason or another if these are probability based, say, block and evasion failing, for example.


OctilleryLOL

I think you're talking about trying to break the node but on a simpler level, the phys taken as ele mods + this passive work quite well together for pure phys hits, while providing nonzero value to ele hits/conversion hits. I think the node will be quite efficient regardless of whether or not the node is broken.


LoL-Guru

Taking values of 75% max res is pretty disingenuous, as it represents the worst case scenario and something that doesn't accurately depict what most would consider acceptable or achievable in an endgame context. Based on what's been said the values sky rocket once you're at 90% max res.


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LoL-Guru

Transcendence stops armor from mitigating physical hits though...


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LoL-Guru

This sounds like a lot more effort compared to 2 Ascendancy points....


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LoL-Guru

The comparison is 90% max res + Ascendancy Vs 90% max res + Transcendence + 100% incoming phys conversion to elemental Try to keep up


doorholder1

50k armour is a puny amount and a very bad example since you are going to have way more. The effect is also larger the more armour you get. Also 5k elemental hit is a pretty humongous hit to use as an example.


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toggl3d

> I think 50k armour is a fair amount for a juggernaut with a balanced build. This node still has the double armour from chest part if I'm remembering correctly. It should be chunkier than that, ideally.


Glum-Intention7907

Its not even close to transcendence, loreweave and high Armour in terms of raw defensive power. On small hits that dip below Armour thresholds, it's a little stronger.... but those are small hits that would've never killed you anyway. Against big hits its just flat out weaker. Not only not the strongest defensive layer ever, but not even stronger than currently available and in-league defensive layers.


QueueTip13

What makes this node so great in my opinion is that you can reach high levels of elemental mitigation (for hits anyway) without actually investing in +max resist. To mitigate \~25% of hit damage, you only need 2x armor. So with 75% resists, a hit that would normally do 2000 post-resist, would only do 1500 if you had 50k armor (2000 \* 2 / .08). That's effectively 81.25% resist with no extra max resist. As a Marauder, you'd likely have at least some from Soul of Steel and maybe Prismatic Skin, so it would be even stronger.


hesh582

I don’t think you need to get the armor mitigation that high for it to be really good, though. Even 50% mitigation post resists is massive. I don’t think you’ll get to be effectively immune, but I do think you can get stratospheric ehp.


psychomap

Of course it's useful even if you don't get to 98%. I just brought it up because it was mentioned in the post.


cowpimpgaming

Even if 8% armour is merely equal to incoming damage, you still mitigate 16.7% of that damage, which is pretty substantial. So if you have 50k armour, then 4k armour applies to elemental damage, and 4k damage hits (after mitigation) would be mitigated by 16.7%. Also, because of how effective this would be against a lot of small to moderate hits, you can likely get away without any "avoidance" type defensive layer (e.g. block, spell block, evasion) and have a true mitigation only defensive package, which does have a lot of value.


Zoesan

You need 25 times the armor of the mitigated hit though


psychomap

No, 8% of your armour need to be 20 times as high as the damage after resistances, which is 25 times as high as the unmitigated damage if your resistances are 90%.


One_Kaleidoscope_271

Everyone is saying that is after, just like transcendence. But to get 90% and playing a jugg your enemies will die of old age


Rolf_Dom

I don't know, I leveled a Jugg to 100 on HC SSF this league, rank 50 on the ladder. Got it done decently fast. 90% fire res and Tempered by war made me into a solid beef boy. Jugg is low damage, but when you have such high tankiness, you can compensate a little with higher dps uptime. After all, you don't need to run around in a panic dodging everything while trying to DPS. You can just stand still and hold down your buttons for 100% uptime. You're not dying to anything anyway.


shamshield92

What build did you run or do you have a pob link? I was looking at jugg for league start hcssf this time around.


Rolf_Dom

It was a pretty basic Fire Trap, RF, Flame Wall build. Don't really have a POB since I don't use it. All I've got it a POENinja page. My current profile is private but luckily ninja has a time travel feature so here's a week 3 snapshot of what it looked like: https://poe.ninja/challengehcssf/builds/char/Archangel591/FireJuggSentinel?time-machine=week-3&i=0&search=time-machine%3Dweek-3%26skill%3DFire-Trap%26name%3Dfireju Here's some video stuff too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WtdCVWoDnM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUD6f6noLRY I did make some pretty good gear, so I wouldn't recommend following in my steps for league start. Recombinators are gone, so gearing up might become a lot more problematic. If you want more in-depth guides, I suggest you look up Pohx guides and POB's for RF, because he seems to have it all figured out. I don't follow guides myself, but I took a quick glance at his stuff and it looked on point. He prefers Inquisitor and Chieftain, but Jugg works pretty much the same as Chieftain, you're just getting less damage because your ascendancies are all defensive. Skill tree and gear is likely to be very similar. All that said, Fire Trap is getting a 25% damage nerf, so the build might struggle even more with single target now. But we don't know all the patch notes yet, so we'll have to wait and see. I think I saw Pohx crunch numbers in POB on stream for a Jugg, so maybe look up his Twitch and ask him what his conclusion was for league starting it.


warmachine237

>Don't really have a POB since I don't use it. All I've got it a POENinja page I dont have a venmo or anything, just take my platinum amex, that should cover it. Fucking flex.


Rolf_Dom

Usually I just get downvoted when I say I don't use POB. I'm not sure if people hate that they can't pick my build apart, think I'm bullshitting them, or as you say, trying to flex on them. In practice I just don't want to turn my POE experience into a spreadsheet simulator, so I try to limit theorycrafting to just reading the wiki a bit for niche interactions and figuring the rest out in-game as I play. Because that's actually fun for me. Staring at numbers is not.


warmachine237

Oh i understand, just trying to make a joke lol. I do try at least one build where i just walk in and play each league. Made a strom brand inquisitor, got to like yellows and gave up. Didnt really like it much.


Rolf_Dom

For sure, some builds are just not going to resonate with you, even if on paper they seem good. Which is another reason why I don't like the idea of making builds in POB. Doesn't matter how perfect it is on paper, if you're not enjoying the actual gameplay, it's not worth it.


Oldoa_Enthusiast

The things people do on HC. Fucking fire trap juggernaut 😂


levus2002

Rf fire trap jugg is a totally valid not even meme build.


LoL-Guru

Self-Curse Boneshatter or Boneshatter CoC Discharge. Discharge build in particular felt great- once you're at 50% Crit chance the build takes off into the stratosphere (Lead Sprinkler Strength stacking for insane attack speeds and spell damage if you want something quick, dirty and easy).


CerrahpasaKasabi

any showcase for that coc stuff?


LoL-Guru

No videos, but essentially it's a 55% chance to endurance Charge on being hit (Boneshatter causes you to hit yourself), 25% chance on block (you can block your own boneshatter) 45% chance on melee stun and 8% chance on kill. That's without any gems or gear. 25% of the time you gain an endurance Charge you gain maximum Endurance Charges. So a lot of those discharges end up with max endurance charges. Boneshatter, CoC, Discharge, Fire Penetration, Crit (Chance or Damage), Elemental Focus or Multistrike Use Brutus' Sprinkler and go all in on Crit and strength. With around +170% attack speed you're hitting just under 4x a second which incidentally is the cooldown on discharge after Endless Misery jewel (Undeniable on a strength stacking build in early phases gets around 40% attack speed but by end game when you have 2400 strength it's over 70% so it's quite doable without multi-strike. It Segways into other strength stacking builds especially well and has good survivability.


One_Kaleidoscope_271

Boneshatter is really nice but for some reason i am always forgetting about it


Liveless404

> Lead Sprinkler Strength stacking for insane attack speeds and spell damage umm isn't the brutus sceptre only adding damage to attacks?


LoL-Guru

Indeed it does, but having 2400 strength applying +840% to spell/fire damage counts for something...


Rolf_Dom

Oh yeah, those builds should have damage out the ass if you get it ramping.


HeckinKoda

Couldn’t you, oh idk… play as a Berserker and use flesh/flame for it


cldw92

It's probably gonna cost 80ex. Zerker with this is insane.


hesh582

Imo that notable will only be used by chieftains getting it via flesh/flame anyway so it doesn’t matter lol


Alhoon

You can already simulate this on PoB by putting following lines in Custom Modifiers: > 92% less armour > Armour applies to Fire, Cold and Lightning Damage taken from Hits instead of Physical Damage Now your elemental damage reduction is correct, but physical isn't. Simply remove these lines or add # before each line to check your physical damage reduction.


ikzme

Its probebly not additive, giving a flat 8% dmg mitigation on top of 90%. The leftover 10% dmg after 90% resistance gets reduced by 8% - you take 9,2% dmg, not 2%.


LoL-Guru

Armor works in a multiplicative way but is determined by the amount of incoming damage. So if your armor would normally reduce a hit 90% then using only 8% would be terrible, but if you reduce the amount it has to absorb by 90% first (by having 90% resist) then it becomes more like 8% divided by the reciprocal (8% / 10% = 80%), now it becomes more like applying 80% of your armor to the original hit. Notice then, that when max resist is only 75%, this increases the reciprocal and therefore lowers the effect (8% / 25% = 32% ). You see how much the usefulness of the ability hinges on lowering the amount of incoming damage before the armor kicks into effect. In the same way, having a small hit (20% of a hit turned to an element) becomes another force multiplier in this context.