By - regian24
Who are they? When/where was the photo taken?
Soviet snipers, taken before the end of the war as some of them pictured died during the war.
Bottom right got 773 of them
Snipers from the 3rd shock army separate sniper company. The photo looks like it was taken shortly before the battle for berlin (based on the medals and who is still alive, some would die during the battle for berlin)
The comment to the photo on "Rare historical photos" says that they're:
>First row – Guard Staff Sergeant, VN Stepanova: 20 kills, Guard Sgt JP Belousova: 80 kills, Guard Sgt AE Vinogradova: 83 kills.
>Second row – Guard Lieutenant EK Zhibovskaya: 24 kills, Guard Sgt KF Marinkin: 79 kills, Guard Sgt OS Marenkina: 70 kills.
>Third row – Guard Lieutenant NP Belobrova: 70 kills, Lieutenant N. Lobkovsky: 89 kills, Guard Lieutenant VI Artamonova: 89 kills, Guard Staff Sergeant MG Zubchenko: 83 kills.
>Forth row – Guard Sergeant, NP Obukhova: 64 kills, Guard Sergeant, AR Belyakova 24 kills.
Barring spelling errors and errors in kill tallies (for example Vera Artamonova had 99 claimed kills, not 89. Also in the third row is Nina Lobkovskaya, the commander of the company, not "Lobkovsky") the information that I've been able to check (mostly info on the snipers with the top kill tallies) checks out with other publicly available sources.
Reading the kill counts and looking at the picture, it's really funny that those with some of the highest counts look the most jolly.
That's why they are jolly!
Hey why not be jolly after killing some nazis?
I think the jolly is before the kills.
Nah they’d already faced combat
Do you think one of them was a political commissar? I can’t tell by rank.
>Who are they?
Some of the most badass grandmas ever to exist.
"Babushka, what did you do during the Great Patriotic War?"
"Well, sweetie, me and some of my good friends fucked up a whole bunch of Nazis."
I have never seen a more Russian-looking group of women in my life.
You haven’t been to Brighton Beach
I *have*, actually. Great place. Love taking the subway to Europe.
You can also take the #7 to the far East
The reason they're so happy is that not only did they help beat the Nazis, they didn't get sent to the gulags!
Another unfunny gulag joke, I swear I can never find a post about soviet union that doesn't include a gulag joke
Wasn't the whole Soviet Union a gulag joke?
No, that’s America, the greatest prison state in the world.
Yeah im gonna go with the country that poisons their people and sends them to Siberia on this one
To be fair the US bombed its own people in Philadelphia 1985 and killed them with syphilis in the Tuskegee Experiment, plus incarcerates by far the most in the world per capita so there’s arguments for both.
They also created a drug problem killing many to finance a war for oil.
They also allowed many different types of deadly chemicals in paint, food, tap water, etc
They also allow their population to die of simple medical problems everyday.
We literally have the most prisoners but believe what you want to believe.
If only they convinced their people the police could do no wrong then they'd be free to just gun them down in the streets like they do in the US. Too bad they have to rely on secretly poisoning them.
Not the one that uses atomic weapons to prove a how tough they are to the USSR (their allies) by committing the 2 single largest mass killings in history against a defeated Japan?
Not the one that murdered 300000 Iraqis b/c their president was mad Saddam was mean to his dad when he was the president?
Not the one that used chemical weapons and committed untold war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Vietnamese...for reasons?
Get your lips off your own colon and think.
Not after 1960, no
True, Navalny is probably not laughing at the moment.
Navalny was around 16 when the USSR fell. He's suffering under a capitalist system right now.
It's an interesting style of capitalism they are trying out. Seems more corrupt than average.
Kleptocracy seems like the most apt term
Have you met capitalism?
this is the kind of people who say real communism has never been tried
I mean real Communism literally hasn't been tried. In a true Communist society there is no money, no leadership like a president, prime minister or king. Everyone is equal and all goods and services are provided freely.
There is no developed society in which that has occurred. The closest thing that the world has seen to that is a socialist state. Some places and political parties may incorporate the word communist into their title, but that only applied in name only, there has been no real communist society and likely will never be one
Wait I thought the USSR fell in the early 90s! So you’re saying Navalny is a prisoner of the communist regime in Russia?
Is that when they became a "he committed suicide by being pushed out a window" joke?
When you managed to triple the body count of the Nazis by an estimated factor of 3, expect to get some shit
25 million Soviet citizens died to free Western Europe from Fascism, more than all Western powers combined, and they were murdered by Nazis. You're simultaneously dehumanizing an entire nation of people by not counting their deaths and sacrifice, while using a tragedy/nightmare that they suffered in their own land (focred/unnatural famine from collectivization) as a bludgeon for critique when you clearly dgaf about them to begin with. Without the USSRs collectivization (and mass death they suffered because of it), chances are the Europe would've stayed in the hands of the Nazis.
The World Wars were started by European Imperial powers and killed 75 million people in total. WW1, a Western European creation set the horrific conditions in place for the USSR to come into existence to begin with (as WW2 would do for the CCP). If Europe hadn't been busy trying to subjugate the entire planet, than maybe the USSR never would've risen, but we'll never know.
> You act like Russia was purely altruistic
Why is that the standard? Is that the standard for other countries?
Unlike America that was definitely actually altruistic and wasn't just trying to economically dominate European recovery
I thought the soviet death toll was closer to 35 million.
> Without the USSRs collectivization (and mass death they suffered because of it), chances are the Europe would've stayed in the hands of the Nazis.
maybe if the soviet union wasn't friendly with the nazi in the first place and didn't split poland in half with them things would have been better
Munich agreement was signed and the war was imminent already. Do you know what the Munich agreement is?
What ifs are always interesting, but these what if's exist because of European folly/hubris to begin with, not the doing of the USSR.
1) Who started the wars that created the conditions for the USSR to begin with? Maybe imperial domination with wretched treatment of your citizens is a bad idea.
2) UKs "Peace for our time" appeasement let Czechoslovakia, which had one of the most advanced armies of Europe, get rolled (which Poland participated in as well). USSR as history shows stalled for time, and it worked.
3) UK and France could've rolled Germany if they had attacked (and didn't have fascist friendly leaderships/populaces to begin with), particularly when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia.
Revisionist history is funny and lack of education allows it!
Well said, well written, much respect.
The Black Book of Communism (where this 100 million dead number comes from) includes all the dead Nazi invaders on the Soviet Front as "victims of communism" as well as the 200k massacred in South Korea for being suspected of being communist as well as all the left leaning victims in Indonesia, South America, South Africa and the world over. It's extremely sloppy academia that the nearly all of the researches sourced for the book criticized the author for.
That's actually only true if you do things like only counting the Holocaust for the Nazis, but count Russian soldiers killed in battle for the USSR. If you count like for like, the USSR still has quite a body count, but the Nazis have a much bigger one.
The deaths due to famine during Churchill's life in India alone exceed those of the Soviet famines. What do you think happened to Indians who dared challenge British rule for all those decades?
And British India was just one chunk of the empires run by capitalist nations. If we use the same standard and attempt to tally all the people enslaved, murdered and starved, it is clear that institutions like the British Parliament and East India Company are far and away the worst mass murderers in history.
Churchill was negligent in his response to the Indian famine. But saying it’s equivalent to murdering and burying every prominent Polish politician and shipping off your undesirables to Siberia is a straw man of epic size.
Why? The British conquered India by force, arrested, tortured and killed those who resisted, and got rich off cash crops while Indians frequently starved.
Moreover, this was representative of how powerful nations like UK, USA, France etc. generally extracted resources from what we now call the third world.
Dude you know that the Nazis didn't only killed Jews, their kill count of innocents is around 20 million you cretin
Her: Come over, Joseph!
Stalin: Can't, I'm sending people to gulag
Her: My parents aren't at home
Stalin: I know
Well when you’re an authoritarian regime hell bent on total control of your citizens via terror and murder several million of them in the Gulags, kinda gonna follow you around and stick for oh I dunno, the rest of human history.
Don’t forget robbing the uppity ones of all their food in a group-punishment and giving that food to the loyal ones.
There are over 2 million Americans in American prisons right now, disproportionately black and brown, and primarily for very minor offences (many of which are no longer crimes).
America just rolled back a human right.
That self-righteousness ya got there is just so baseless.
The highest estimated number for the Gulag system is 1,7 million, not several millions. Still terrible, but at least check your numbers.
You think that's bad. Try talking about Baltimore without someone bringing up The Wire.
im glad im not the only one thinking this lol
Please. I beg of you. Think before you type dumb ass shit.
I think bottom right had 90% of them and loved every minute of it.
That's Alexandra Yegenievna Vinogradova. "Only" 83 claimed kills. The top killers are in the third row.
Third row, second from the left is Lt. Nina Lobkovskaya who is the commander of that sniper unit (3rd shock army separate sniper company) and had 89 claimed kills.
One step right is Vera Ivanovna Artamonova (99 claimed kills) and one step further is Maria Zubchenko (83 claimed kills).
So the super smiley lady is 99? I was totally gonna say that as a joke, but honestly, I'd be that happy too if I killed 99 Nazis. I mean, I think... Idaho, here I come! /S
My bet is on the woman on the right in second row from the top. She looks like she’s a minute away from #776.
I think Pavlichenko might be one of the women in this photo. She had 309 confirmed kills by the end of the war.
I believe I recall from this being posted in the past that it is the woman on the bottom right that had that crazy number of confirmed kills
Her face confirms that.
Pavlichenko was not in this picture. Those are the snipers in the 3rd Shock army separate sniper company (belorussian front) while Pavlichenko served in the Siege of Odesa and Sevastopol and was then transferred permanently to the training squadron&publicity after being injured.
What does #776 mean?
The women collectively killed 775 Nazis, the comment is suggesting the lady in question is a minute away from killing the 776th Nazi.
oof yea should've read the title again, that's my morning brain for ya, thanks!
It's the same person in that column. They get more angry as they progress, a bit like the face in the original Wolfenstein and Doom games
Actually, from memory, the real killer is the middle lady in the second row. She's an actual sniper legend.
I came here to say the exact same thing 😄
"Private Pyle, you are definitely born again hard! Hell, I may even allow you to serve as a rifleman in my beloved corps."
I was thinking she coulda looked em to death.
Komm zu mir, meine Liebe
I was going to say the same thing but wanted to check to see if anyone else said it. We on the same page here.
You're straight up in my head.
Came here to write this, nice man
Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko had 309 confirmed kills of german soliders
And where is Roza Shanina?? She had 60 confirmed
Which one is Pavlichenko?
Shes not there in the picture, but she was at the battle of Odessa and Sevastopol
Just read Kate Quinn’s “Diamond Eye” about her. Great book, recommend for anyone interested in ww2 female snipers.
Confirmed by whom?
The ultra reliable Russian propaganda machine?
Eh, there was still a procedure in place to confirm the kills. Even accounting for honest overclaiming (which happens often), there is still a large number of confirmed shots involved.
*Soviet Union at the time
And yes, that.
If we’ve learned anything from Ukraine-Russia conflict it is that propaganda, even in the age of the internet and easy information access, is amazing.
I will wear your skin
Read The Unwomanly Face Of War by Svetlana Alexievich. The Russian women/girls were badass and women interpret war far differently then men.
It's so good. Everything by Alexievich is brilliant.
770 kills all from the bottom right and all barehanded combat.
And I don’t even have one. Well, the times they are a saming, so I might get my chance.
This “kill numbers” are usually ridiculously overinflated. These women were indeed Soviet snipers and they did indeed do some impressive things in WW2, particularly considering that they were not even technically permitted to serve in combat roles at that time.
Quite a few of them had impressive kill tallies and were involved in some pretty high profile combat situations. Many were awarded some pretty high military honours. A few of them even became military instructors during or after the war.
But the Soviet Union was always noted for exaggerating it’s prowess to seem more impressive.
Precisely. Confirmed by whom?
The ultra reliable Russian propaganda machine?
The current long distance sniper record holder has talked about killing up to forty people in one day. Over the course of his career he has probably killed thousands, and he's still going in Ukraine.
You asked for a source for the "this is most likely exaggerated" comment, but NOT for the claim of 775 kills?
> but NOT for the claim of 775 kills?
Honestly, 775 kills among 12 hand picked snipers in a target rich environment is not a stretch.
Of course, some overclaiming is due to take place, and the real numbers are almost certainly lower, but it is not outlandish. We are talking about some 65 per women here, while we have individuals with several hundreds, outside the Soviet Union too.
I think it is. The nazis certainly also had some competent snipers.
That really doesn't mean anything, and betrays a lack of understanding of how war is conducted and the role snipers have in it.
Soviet snipers racked up large number of kills, something attested by the Germans themselves.
"trust me bro"
Source? Source? Source?
Do you have a source on that?
A source. I need a source.
Sorry, I mean I need a source that explicitly states your argument. This is just tangential to the discussion.
No, you can't make inferences and observations from the sources you've gathered. Any additional comments from you MUST be a subset of the information from the sources you've gathered.
You can't make normative statements from empirical evidence.
Do you have a degree in that field?
A college degree? In that field?
Then your arguments are invalid.
No, it doesn't matter how close those data points are correlated. Correlation does not equal causation.
Correlation does not equal causation.
CORRELATION. DOES. NOT. EQUAL. CAUSATION.
You still haven't provided me a valid source yet.
Nope, still haven't.
I just looked through all 308 pages of your user history, figures I'm debating a glormpf supporter. A moron.
Of course they don't, why would they?
So then...nothing has changed.
Better plot for inglorius bastards
Not really, unless these are Jewish Russians which is pretty unlikely. A band of Jewish soldiers taking Nazi lives is more compelling than just two nations at war. That’s why Inglorious Basterds was a fresh take on a war movie, after all.
Edit: Apparently it’s not unlikely for Russians to be Jewish, but my point still stands. We got what we got and it was great. Inglorious Basterds with these admittedly bad ass ladies would’ve just been another Kill Bill with Russians, and he hasn’t even been motivated enough to release a Kill Bill 3 (yet).
the eastern front was not "just two nations at war". A loss for the USSR meant genocide. All those women would've been killed or made slaves had they lost.
That's more compelling than some made up story about how the USA won the war.
> Not really, unless these are Jewish Russians which is pretty unlikely.
Why would that be unlikely? At that time something like 70% of the entire global Jewish population lived in the Soviet Union.
It was a total fiction though
Yeah, but that doesn’t make these ladies a better fit for the plot of Inglorious Basterds when the film is about Jews taking their revenge on the Nazis
how has there been no movie about these ladies.
None look conflicted.
Where is the movie I would watch the hell out of this.
According to soviet propaganda.
Nah this was well backed up by the Germans as well. Young girls and women signed up or just ran away from home to go fight and protect the homeland. Their stories are wild. Look into it.
The 700 kills were most definitely not backed up by the germans, I think the more you look the more hard pressed you’d be to find even 10% of that figure backed up by the Germans.
Tbh it is not even that much of a stretch, you forget the timescale.
for example: Nina Lobkovskaya 89 kills seems impressive even impossible on a short timescale, but she served on the front for 3 years(1942-1945) that is 30 kills a year, one every 12ish days.
Kill a fortnight? nor really inconceivable.
How is it inconceivable if "white death" has 500ish in 1 year? and is widely believed to be credible.
The original Soviet source (thats referenced in most English articles) states she killed 64 just one year after graduating from sniper school in 1943. It also says her all female sniper company led by her killed 3112 soldiers.
You wouldn’t really want to believe those figures so much either, the winter war involved a lot of propaganda with the specific intent to demoralize the Soviets.
This is actually true. Whenever one of the girls would shoot and kill a Nazi, a few of the comrades of the dead person would walk out across enemy lines. They'd have a chat with the person who got the kill, inform them that they scored a point, and sign their scorecard to make it all official. Then they'd go back across the killzone and blow a trumpet - signifying that the war was back "on".
Offcourse anything the main contributors in the war did is false while any american feats are 100% true, I wonder how true you'd consider something like To hell and back
you say this as if the soviets aren’t the reason the nazis were defeated
you say this as if the soviets were sole reason why nazis were defeated.
I am not saying that they didnt contribute in defeat of III Reich, they sure did, but they did produce as much propaganda as said III Reich and these achievements should be taken with a grain (or few kg's) of salt. There are a lot of question marks when it comes to Pavlichenko for example, so what I said is perfectly valid and true and not at all what you suggested.
Plus, lets not forget soviets were those who actually started WWII, invading Poland in cooperation with Nazi Germany, or later invading Finland, and who enslaved eastern Europe after WWII.
3/4 of nazi Germany’s losses were against the ussr. Contribute? Their front was the decisive front.
Opinions about their motives/actions are not relevant to this fact.
By ‘44 the ussr was in the middle of their ‘year of 10 victories,’ was crushing the Wehrmacht on all fronts
It’s good the allies saved France from the ussr with dday, but that is largely what they did
British Intelligence, American Steel, and Soviet Blood. It's absolutely correct to say that the majority of the fighting in Europe was done by the soviets, but not that Allied contributions were minor. Stalin is said to have claimed that without US lend lease, the USSR would not have won the war, for example.
He's said to have said that?
27 million Soviets died in that war. At least. ~400,000 Americans did.
The Soviet contribution both in blood and fighting power was much more than any other nation. Yeah everyone counts but that's not the point of discussion here.
One of his staff said that he said that in his memoirs.
And I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm just saying that casualties is not the only way to measure war participation. In this case, US logistical support was pivotal to the Soviet war effort.
27 millionn includes Soviet civilian deaths. There were "only" up to 11.4 million Soviet military deaths. The US, of course, had essentially no civilian deaths, which is part of the reason it was so effective at providing logistical aid to the Allies in Europe.
WW2 online ‘history buffs’ can’t bring themselves to admit that the majority of WW2 battles were on the eastern front as well as that’s where most the Nazi casualties were. Not to mention the industrialization efforts of the USSR and those sacrifices is what led in large part to the Nazi defeat. But soviet propaganda bad cuz they did most of the legwork!
Lol also invading Finland and Poland, understanders
Most history buffs won’t argue raw numbers like battle numbers like you claim. While other “history buffs” wholesale ignore the direly needed material support the soviets received, without which they couldn’t have kept fighting, since Stalin scrubbed that bit from history books over there afterwards. Instead giving “soviet industrialization” all the credit.
If the United States didn't provide material support to the Soviet Union they would have been pushed into Siberia before '43 was over and ceased to be a fighting force.
We provided millions of tons of food, while almost all trucks used by the Soviet Union were built in the United States (over 400,000 trucks and jeeps). The Iron used to produce their tanks was shipped from the United States and during the early stages of the war they were effectively out of fuel, with 60% of all aircraft fuel used by the Soviet Union during the war coming from the United States.
It is undeniable that the majority of losses felt by the Nazi Regime were inflicted by the Soviet Union. It is also undeniable that without US material support the Soviet Union would have collapsed in the face of the Nazi war machine.
\*Edit\* This was also the opinion of Stalin and Khrushchev, who openly stated in no uncertain terms that without the material support the Soviet Union received they would have lost the war.
\*Second Edit\* The Western Powers provided over 60% of all Aluminum used by Soviet factories during World War II and a staggering 80% of all Copper. Half of all rail lines in use by the Soviet Union by wars end were constructed from ties and bars built in the United States. Over a third of all vehicles in use by the Red Army at wars end were built in the United States. The vast majority of front line troops in the Red Army wore uniforms produced with American materials and the US provided over 15 million pairs of combat boots to the Red Army.
Russian Military Historian Boris Sokolov puts it best:
>"In order to really assess the significance of Lend-Lease for the Soviet victory, you only have to imagine how the Soviet Union would have had to fight if there had been no Lend-Lease aid," Sokolov wrote. "Without Lend-Lease, the Red Army would not have had about one-third of its ammunition, half of its aircraft, or half of its tanks. In addition, there would have been constant shortages of transportation and fuel. The railroads would have periodically come to a halt. And Soviet forces would have been much more poorly coordinated with a constant lack of radio equipment. And they would have been perpetually hungry without American canned meat and fats."
>It’s good the allies saved France from the ussr with dday, but that is largely what they did
This is moronic and ignorant. Russia would have had very little success against Germany without the Lend-Lease Act. We supported them while they fought, like we're doing with Ukraine right now. The difference was that the Russian government lied to their people about how much help they had from us.
Edit: Also, Russia likes to take credit for how many Germans they killed, but it was their harsh natural environment that did the most to defeat the German army in Russia. Germany defeated itself when they invaded Russia by land. If Russia had the same kind of climate as Europe, the Germans would have rolled right over them. Russia had a lot of people to throw at them, but their tactics were as bad then as they are now.
Nazi lover spotted
What a boatload of crap.
I wouldn't trust Russian numbers on *anything*.
In this thread:
\* Some of these women are not beautiful
\* Communism is bad
\* Nazi Lives Matter
Reddit keeps on Redditing
I see a lot of clean Wehrmacht on reddit recently, it is actually concerning.
Are they available these days?
I can think of some events I’d like to book them for
I would have like to service them when they were on leave. Momma!
They must wake up really early in the morning
Eddie Izzard has entered the war room
That's amazing. Avg 64.5 each. Most of them look barely 20.
Lyudmila Pavlichenko, also known as Lady Death, reportedly killed over 300 Nazi soldiers in less than a year of combat
I feel bad because the only way I knew I had seen this pic before is because I looked at the girl on the bottom right and thought yeah I couldn’t forget that face. I’m an asshole.
Nice shot of deadly snipers who also make nice shots
Bottom right could kill you just by looking at you
Bottom right belongs in Full Metal Jacket.
This will soon be many women in the US when the authoritarians completely take over
I wish they were alive to take care of last nazi remaining
Lyudmila Pavlichenko, the anti-fascist Soviet sniper credited with 309 Nazi soldiers kills, becoming the most successful female sniper in history.
“How many men have you killed?"
"Not a man... fascists. 309."
Another fun fact: Woman on bottom right has all 775
Still not enough. Send them to Florida.
Better get some American women going on this. We're gonna need this at home, soon.
In Soviet photo, subject shoot you.
The numbers coming out of Russia were just about as reliable then as they are now.
The US wasn’t better, their air victory claims sre stupidly unreliable.
This isn't about US air victory's but ok...
That is AWESOME
And in another few decades it will be Old School Cool to post pictures of Ukrainian snipers doing the same
>775 confirmed Nazi kills
*According to Russian wartime propaganda
Ukrainian female snipers, I don’t know how many of them are in this photo but Lyudmilla Pavlichenko -born in Kyiv- alone had 300 confirmed kills -with dog tags collected- her life story is incredible, look her up. She made friends with US President’s wife who skipped her visit to Soviet premier when she went to USSR post war and went straight to see Pavlychenko who took First Lady to opera.
Ukrainians were the fiercest fighters of Soviet Union, Russians took lot of credit for their bravery and outstanding performance.
By that time, there were not separated as Russians, Ukrainians, or a Kazakh, they were soviets and fought for their homeland
The commies lied a lot so it’s probably not true even if i want to believe it.
there are some great book suggestions on this thread for the one day you get your head out of your ass to learn that facts don’t come from there ;)
Yeah, get your head out of your ass and believe that these 12 uninjured ladies killed, on average, 65 men each!
The Soviets lied a lot so it wouldn’t be uncommon to take a pic of some ladies and pull a random number out of their ass
Reddit=100% of German population from 1939-1945 is a nazi
The ones who turned an eye and said nothing are just as guilty!
"Germans", not "Nazis". They have killed hundreds of Germans. Use the correct words, it helps with thinking.
They were killing soldiers who wore swastika uniforms, saluted a swastika flag with a straight arm, and cashed monthly paychecks from Adolf Hitler.
Even if some of those guys didn't mentally prefer the Nazi goals, they were paid employees of a Nazi organization. That makes them Nazis.
Olga on the far right, first row looks like she chews on their bones too. Powerful group of women there.
How many Nahtzi scalps did they get?
Terrible fake, these guns are actually issued in Ukraine war.
Dude, this is a *really* well known picture from the 40s.
Do I really have to explain my half-assed joke?
Have you been on this website? The number of people who would say something dumber than that in earnest is absolutely staggering.
The correct move I think is to acknowledge the joke bombing and then marinate in self loathing. That /s and an explanation is 10x worse than the bomb itself.
We forgive you.
Poe's law exists for a reason.