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renegade_yankee

Interesting.. I think it’s because several experts and baseball writers view catcher as a defense premium position. Not many catchers are in the hall of fame but when you think of the ones that are (Pudge, Bench, Carter) they were all elite defensively. Mike Piazza is an exception but he was a special middle of the order bat who was even above Posada in that category. That being said I really don’t take Hall of Fame votes that seriously anymore. The writers just cherry pick who they like and who they don’t. This was evident when David Ortiz got in the hall of fame and other guys linked to PED’s like A-Rod, Bonds and Clemens aren’t in. Jorge’s got a plaque in monument park and his number retired. We appreciate him for who and what he was.


DrVanNostrand1973

This! They've shown recently that they're more of a popularity contest than anything. Play nice with the press and you get in.


novakaiser21

The fact that Thurman Munson is not a HOFer but Molina might be speaks volumes.


ledbetterus

what does it say?


Codeman_117

Volumes!


Jon-Umber

"Hall voters are fucking idiots!"


FroyoMNS

They should both be.


SomeScrub69

Munson never announced retirement. It’s a technicality as to why he didn’t get in


novakaiser21

Is that true? I always thought it was a case of “longevity” like Mattingly. I think that Munson can definitely be given an exception.


Holyshit_itsjake

That argument doesn't make sense to me. Thurman had a 10 year career before he died and Donny had a 14 year.


SomeScrub69

I think that’s what the employees at the HoF said, but I could be mistaken


Oneanimal1993

Wouldnt that apply to Clemente too


elroddo74

Munson didn't get in because Voters felt he didn't play long enough. If he'd been able to play a few more years he would have had enough counting stats and accumulated WaR to "earn" a spot from some of the writers who didn't vote for him maybe. Hopefully a veterans committee eventually votes him in. 7 all star teams, 3 gold gloves, a Roy and MVP in 10 seasons with a 4.0 Fwar per year average would say he should be in as a catcher despite the short career. OPS+ of 116 as a catcher is really good as well, its virtually the same as Gary Carter and Carlton Fisk who played in the 70's with him.


MY-NAME_IS_MY-NAME

> That being said I really don’t take Hall of Fame votes that seriously anymore. The writers just cherry pick who they like and who they don’t. This was evident when David Ortiz got in the hall of fame and other guys linked to PED’s like A-Rod, Bonds and Clemens aren’t in. Sad thing is I still think the baseball HOF has it right more than the NFL and Basketball. Says more about those HOFs then baseball's tho


Maximum_Ad_3739

I love this take. I don't think anyone can ignore the fact that the baseball HOF is a political corrupt club at this point.


ConorJay25

The writers are different than the Hall itself, it’s not like the hall is voting


GreenMamba559

Most halls are. Look at nfls hall of fame voters/writers. Terrel owens, hate him or love him. He was snubbed from being first ballot because the writers held grudges.


Darkdragon3110525

They waited until multiple 80s raiders died to start inducting them. They only inducted Tom Flores because he had a popular commercial about it


GreenMamba559

Fuckin A, I’m from and live in Fresno, right next to Sanger where coach Flores is from. Absolute bs how they have personal agendas.


kanst

It also didn't help jorge that the ballot in 2017 was loaded. There were 9 eventual hall of famers on the ballot (bagwell, raines, pudge, Hoffman, guerrero, Edgar Rodriguez, mussina, ler smith, and larry walker), as well as 4 guys who are only not in due to scandal The max 10 people on the ballot rule squeezed jorge out and he didn't get the 5 % minimum


Joey_Logano

Roger Marris should be in without a doubt. Voters also screwed Dave Stieb (among others) out of various awards (in the case of Stieb, the Cy Young) which not only hurt his HOF chances but also in some ways affected how much money he made.


Kind_Bullfrog_4073

Maris isnt a HOFer. Outside of his 2 MVP seasons he never came close. Only had 1300 career hits and 275 homers.


SlyMarboJr

What hurt Stieb too is that he never put up sexy numbers (200 k, 20 w etc.) but he was a legit ace for a solid decade. If he had won a World Series, we'd be having a different discussion right now.


Hells_Hawk

Didn't stieb win a world series, though hurt?


SlyMarboJr

Your right! For some reason my brain didn't register their 1992 win.


FitzwilliamTDarcy

This is among the very best takes I’ve ever read here. Thank you.


TheRocket2049

>That being said I really don’t take Hall of Fame votes that seriously anymore. The writers just cherry pick who they like and who they don’t. This was evident when David Ortiz got in the hall of fame and other guys linked to PED’s like A-Rod, Bonds and Clemens aren’t in. I know this will get downvoted but Yankee fans need to stop with their hard on for Ortiz and PEDs. Literally the only evidence is the 2003 test where the MLB was testing for PEDs, recreational drugs, Greenies, and a bunch of other drugs. And statistically there isn't the jump in Ortiz' numbers like there was for Sosa, Bonds, or McGwire. And basically his entire career was done after testing started. The evidence for Ortiz is circumstantial at the absolute best. Whereas Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, McGwire abused the shit out of roids/HGH and it directly contributed to their success and how long their careers lasted


HaveMyselfABeer

Ortiz failed a test, that’s not circumstantial. The hard on exists because Ortiz is the only guy that’s gotten a free pass despite being caught. And his numbers exploded in 2003. I don’t think the steroid guys should be kept out of the HoF, but Ortiz got away with it when other guys didn’t.


TheRocket2049

>Ortiz failed a test, that’s not circumstantial. Once again, a test that could've been for recreational drugs, PEDs, greenies, etc. It wasn't just a PED test >And his numbers exploded in 2003. 2003 was also the first time he played a full season minus one. No shit his numbers "exploded". If you look at stuff like average or OBP his numbers did not grow even remotely near what roid users did


trexsaysrawr

A failed test isn't circumstancial. How fans and the media covered it up is a whole different ballgame. Also, clemens, bonds, arod actually never failed a steroid test, the evidence for those guys is what you'd call circumstancial. With arods case the media went into a frenzy, he was seen as guilty immediately, and then admitted it. More balls, guts, and integrity than ortiz had or will ever have.


TheRocket2049

>Also, clemens, bonds, arod actually never failed a steroid test, the evidence for those guys is what you'd call circumstancial. Bonds and Clemens were both using a BALCO trainer that was indicted for roids. Bonds admitting to using BALCO products in the grand jury for his trainer. And A-Rod openly admitted to using testosterone when at Texas. And Bio-genesis his name was all over. Bio-genesis literally only existing for H2H and testosterone. That's not circumstantial. That's 3 guys being caught 100% using PEDs


elroddo74

Clemens wasn't implicated in Balco. Clemens had a personal trainer out him.


trexsaysrawr

So everyone in the clubhouse with guys like ortiz and conseco roided up too? Because they shared trainers? Again, failed drug test for ortiz. Steroids LINKED based on association for clemens, bonds, arod. Did they all use? Absolutely. Do fake yankee fans, delusional sox fans, and the media go to great hypocritical length to defend david ortiz. Absolutely. Cringworthy, honk honk worthy and at the end of the day, david ortiz did steroids.


TheRocket2049

I love how you have nothing of actual substance to say minus "failed test" even though once again the 2003 tests the MLB did was for far more than just roids. They were testing for a bunch of different drugs ranging from recreational drugs, roids, greenies, and supplements still legal in the MLB. And once again, all Ortiz' HoF career came after testing started on which he never got popped for anything


trexsaysrawr

Lmao you're a fucking joke. Still failed a drug test when the other players never did. One of the least deserving hof players ever..go back to your pathetic sub


TheRocket2049

And then you go to insults because you have absolutely nothing of substance to say... typical Yankee fan who can't actually handle that the evidence on Ortiz is flimsy at best


trexsaysrawr

Crying about insults after you insulted first. Snowflake. Also, david ortiz did steroids. Apparently failing a ped test isn't evidence. Honk honk.


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TheRocket2049

Cunt


elroddo74

No statistical jump, your kidding right? His career high ops before boston was .839, jumped to .961 his first year in boston, a team where the clubhouse attendant went to jail for selling peds and his best friend on the team was Manny ramirez, who was leaked to have used them and then failed 2 tests. Ortiz ops in minnesota was .809, in Boston .956. Maybe to you a .150 jump is a blip, but its actually about the same as the difference for Bonds between San francisco and Pittsburgh and slightly less than Mcgwire and St Louis. Also the Mitchell report was heavily Biased, as the Red sox (senator Mitchell is from Mass) were one of a very few teams where no active players were included despite a club employee going to prison for distribution. Who do you think he was selling too?


TheRocket2049

>No statistical jump, your kidding right? Nice strawman. >His career high ops before boston was .839, jumped to .961 his first year in boston, Damn it's almost like he went to a different ballpark and got coached differently. >Maybe to you a .150 jump is a blip, but its actually about the same as the difference for Bonds between San francisco and Pittsburgh and slightly less than Mcgwire and St Louis. McGwire and Bonds weren't using in when they changed teams. They used afterwards.


elroddo74

So a guy with 2.6 career war in 6 seasons who then got 50 more in 14 years didn't see a statistical jump? Your not very good at making rational arguments. As far as mcgwire and Bonds I'm using averages for those teams, so it shows that after they started using on the new teams the numbers went way up. Also Ortiz lead the league in ops as a 40 year old, nothing odd there at all. Also when ortiz was in minnesota he played at the metrodome, affectionately known as the homer dome, so park effects aren't even close to the only reason why he hit better in boston. Minnesota had pretty decent coaches, Tom Kelly was regarded as one of the best when Ortiz was there. Ron Gardenhire who was there the last year wasn't exactly a slouch either. Not sure why you have such a hard on for Ortiz, who theres articles about bringing known drug dealers to all star games and even them being arrested at his house. https://1045theteam.com/new-york-writer-voter-says-mlb-covered-up-for-big-papi/ But please, keep providing non-sense replies to an argument you know nothing about.


TheRocket2049

>So a guy with 2.6 career war in 6 seasons who then got 50 more in 14 years didn't see a statistical jump? Damn it's almost like he changed teams had his swing approach changed. Is Judge on PEDs this year because his statistics jumped from the last few years. >Your not very good at making rational arguments. Better arguments than dumbass Yankee fans. >As far as mcgwire and Bonds I'm using averages for those teams, Aka deliberately misrepresenting their stats. >Also Ortiz lead the league in ops as a 40 year old, nothing odd there at all. Considering that was 13 years after his alleged failed test that proves nothing. PEDs don't last for 13 years. >Also when ortiz was in minnesota he played at the metrodome, affectionately known as the homer dome, so park effects aren't even close to the only reason why he hit better in boston Damn it's almost like Boston changed his approach to stop being a guy going for average to just a pure power hitter. >Minnesota had pretty decent coaches, Tom Kelly was regarded as one of the best when Ortiz was there. Ron Gardenhire who was there the last year wasn't exactly a slouch either Yet there were multiple hitters that got better when they left the Twins because the Twins were forcing every hitter to be an all field contact hitter. >Not sure why you have such a hard on for Ortiz, Because he was objectively a great player without PEDs and Yankee fans' hard on for alleged PED use at best in 2003, years before some of his greatest seasons ever is embarrassing. >But please, keep providing non-sense replies to an argument you know nothing about. Says you who's deliberately misleading stats and has a fundamental lack of understanding of what the Twins were vs the Red Sox


elroddo74

if Ortiz was such a great player in Minnesota why did they release a dude with a $1m dollar contract? I noticed you completely ignored his association with known steroid dealers, why is that? Why did Ortiz hang out with PED smugglers who got extradited after he was arrested at Ortiz's house? Why did Ortiz get shot by a drug dealer? And if Yankees fans are so dumb why don't you take your ass back to whatever shitty ass reddit you normally troll, where your worship of cheaters is appreciated and shared? As for Boston changing his approach from contact to power, do you even understand how saying a guy who's average went from .266 to .290 that counters that statement? And what other hitters got exponentially better leaving Minnesota? No one else got released and ended up in the hall.


TheRocket2049

>if Ortiz was such a great player in Minnesota why did they release a dude with a $1m dollar contract? Because he wasn't good in Minnesota based off how they told him to hit >I noticed you completely ignored his association with known steroid dealers, why is that? Why did Ortiz hang out with PED smugglers who got extradited after he was arrested at Ortiz's house? Why did Ortiz get shot by a drug dealer? Because it isn't evidence at all Ortiz did PEDs. Especially considering all of that was *after* testing and he never tested positive. Are all the Yankees PEDs users too because Clemens & Cano used and their trainers hung out in the locker room? As for Boston changing his approach from contact to power, do you even understand how saying a guy who's average went from .266 to .290 that counters that statement? If you knew anything about baseball you'd understand why asking a guy to be an all field contact hitter is worse than asking them to be a more pull skewed power guy. >And what other hitters got exponentially better leaving Minnesota? No one else got released and ended up in the hall. Brilliant strawman.


elroddo74

Alex Rodriguez used for years after testing, never tested positive. Others in the biogenesis case never tested positive but admitted to using. You realize the cheaters are always using new drugs to avoid being caught? Lance Armstrong won 7 tour de Frances cheating, never failed a test. The never failed a test is the ultimate straw man, especially when he did fail a test


fyo_karamo

Statistically not a jump in his numbers? Have you looked at Ortiz in Minnesota vs Boston? Or his minor league numbers? He was basically Kent Hrbek and within a year of changing teams became Jimmie Foxx... Before going back to being Kent Hrbek. Dude definitely benefitted from PEDs.


TheRocket2049

Yeah PEDs are why he was elite 10 years after testing started. Get real


fyo_karamo

You don't see a big drop in his numbers after his first few years in Boston? You're seeing what you want to see.


TheRocket2049

He had an OPS+ of 154, 173, & 159 from 2011 to 2013. That's fucking elite dude. That's a decade after joining Boston. His final year he had an OPS+ of 164. If you're seriously trying to argue Ortiz was only good for a few years at Boston then fell off hard then you're just objectively an idiot and so blatantly biased it's ridiculous


LetMeTellYouWhyUSuck

he went from an avg OPS+ of 107 before Boston to "elite" after. When MLB started cracking down around his fifth season in Boston his numbers nosedived. He had a resurgence later on, but his earlier cheating and inexplicable explosion in power from minors and Twins to Sox make everything after suspect. Players still dope after testing to this day...why should he be above the scrutiny that Sosa and others live with to this day?


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CallingAllKarmaWhorz

Bro you're a pathetic "baby bitch". Lol


DavidOrtizUsedPEDs

At no point in his career was he elite, is the thing. And yes, testing is easily beaten, who would have known.


TheRocket2049

He had an OPS over 1.000 multiple times. That's elite


Big_Yellow_Pillow

It used to mean something, when the writers chose who they thought actually deserved it. Now it’s all political and to make a statement


FroyoMNS

Also if you look at fWAR (which is objectively better for catchers) Molina has 15 more than Posada (55 to 40) since it actually takes stuff like framing into account. And that’s still not accounting for the effect Molina has on would-be-base stealers.


YankeesCelticsFan2

I said the same thing about Posey, his numbers are almost identical with Posada and he will get in first ballot. For some reason Posada gets penalized for not taking steroids in the steroid era


myKDRbro_

Should have just roided up like Pudge Rodriguez who somehow escaped any sort of connection to PEDs.


Luis_Severino

And piazza


spruce47

If you adjust for the era they played in, Posey is a considerably better hitter. He also won multiple gold gloves while Jorge was below average at best behind the plate. That said they both should be in, Molina too. I wonder when the writers are going to wise up to how insanely difficult catching at the MLB level is. Just playing 10 years in the show as a catcher to even qualify for the ballot is hard enough, much less having to put up star level offensive numbers while getting absolutely abused behind the plate. Hopefully Posey getting in will spark a debate about voting in more catchers.


SoberSixBiscuit

Posada also suffered by playing on teams that were absolutely stacked with talent. At some point voters look at guys like Posada and say that those 90s teams just had enough representation in the hall. He also suffers because the hall is going to give more attention to guys that excel in one area over any other for instance Molina with defense or Piazza with hitting.


maccardo

Rivera, Jeter … I’m drawing a blank … who else is in the HOF from the Yankee dynasty? Not Bernie, Pettitte, O’Neill, Tino, Clemens, …


trexsaysrawr

Cone, pettite, posada should absolutely be in. No question.


elroddo74

Boggs, Raines, Mussina, Pudge, Randy Johnson, etc all played for the Yankees during the 14 seasons where they won those 5 titles. 7 hall members in that short of a period is pretty impressive. Clemens and A-roid should join them, but they don't pass the likabilty test despite being top 20 all time statistically. Pettites numbers are close, but none of the rest of those players belong in the hall. Abreu, sheffield and Andruw Jones are borderline guys from that period also, with Bernie and Johnny Damon right behind.


maccardo

Almost everyone you mentioned earned their HOF credentials elsewhere and are not generally thought of as Yankees. (Pudge played 33 games for them.) Mussina was a great Yankee, but never won a title with them. The Unit was there for only two years and didn’t win. Boggs and Raines certainly contributed to Yankee titles, but were HOF-worthy before they arrived. You might be right — and thanks for that list, by the way — but I’m having a hard time believing that a voter ignored Posada because of these guys.


elroddo74

Yeah lots of those dudes were just passing through. So many good to almost great to greats played here since 1996. Lots of guys who were thought as hall worthy at one time as well like Straw and Canseco.


Imagined-Truths

You can make a good argument for Bernie being a HOF.


maccardo

I agree!


trexsaysrawr

And arguably bernie, absolutely.


elroddo74

not really. 47th all time in War as a cf, with 43.9 isn't a Hall of famer. Not when Andruw Jones, Carlos Beltran and Others are in the upper 60's and not in the hall.


frozen-swords

I love Posey, but he was one of, if not the, face of baseball for a couple years. The captain of a team that won 3 world series. Not quite as good as peak Jeter, neither does he have the longevity, but he was the captain of a dynasty in a large market.


trexsaysrawr

If I'm putting posada in due largely to his postseason success, obviously I'm putting in posey who had similar offensive numbers but was the best player on 2 of their championship teams. No doubt they should both be in


TonyzTone

>one of, if not the, face of baseball for a couple years. Yo, really? I don't think I can pick Posey out of a lineup of baseball players, let alone tell me that he was the face of all of baseball.


frozen-swords

this is one of the worst takes I've seen. That's entirely on you for not knowing Posey. MVP, batting title, multiple world series, San Francisco is like one of the 5 largest media markets, and we literally have the Buster Posey rule now. He was one of the prime faces of baseball in the early 2010's, as Jeter was fading and before Trout debuted. There's really nothing else to say.


TonyzTone

I know who Posey is. I don’t think I can pick who he is out of a lineup of random baseball players. And I’ve seen his picture about 500 times. I can guarantee you the majority of people who have gone to a baseball game in America did not know who Buster Posey was. The same cannot be said about Derek Jeter or Albert Pujols.


TheRocket2049

That's on you then. He was their star player


TonyzTone

I'm not saying he wasn't. I knew then like I know now that he was a good player. But the "face of baseball?" I'm not so sure when he shared significant parts of his career with Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Alex Rodriguez, David Ortiz, CC Sabbathia, and whole bunch of others I think command more "star" power. And for what it's worth, all 3 of the Giants' World Series had the least average viewership than all World Series up until COVID. Not just rating, but actually viewers.


elroddo74

Watch more baseball then.


TonyzTone

Dude, you really think that a player whose career coincided with Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, David Ortiz, Mike Trout, Albert Pujols, David Wright, Kris Bryant, and Jose Altuve, is more marketable than any of them? I know a lot of the players I listed can go fuck themselves but like, they're more "the face of baseball" than Posey.


elroddo74

He was one of the faces. No one said he was "the" face. He played most of his career before altuve or Bryant and even trout, he won more than pujols or Wright, and he isn't a roid Head. Pretty much leaves Jeter, and he had more batting titles as a catcher than anyone since forever. He was player of the year in college, mvp in the majors which is more than some of those "stars" can say.


TonyzTone

He literally said “if not **the.**” I quoted that in my comment to start. And dude, Posey came into the league in 2009; Mike Trout and Jose Altuve both came in 2011. So no, not the majority of his career. They’re careers largely overlapped. Except Trout and Altuve still have almost 10 years left to play, and Posey is retiring (normal length for catchers though). Again, I despise half the players I mentioned but in terms of “face of baseball,” Posey’s marketability I don’t think came close to most of the others. All those honors are great. He’s a great player. He even was kind of marketable. And yet there were more marketable players contemporary with him.


elroddo74

my bad, I thought he came up before, and I misquoted the part of him saying if not the face. Still he was the man on 3 title teams, and for west coast fans he was one of the biggest names. East coast Bias probably has something to do with why you feel he wasn't marketable, and also MLB does a horrible job promoting the game. Lastly because I love a good discussion, Altuve is 32, doubt he has 10 more years of cheating in him, and Trouts back issues probably preclude him from playing that long either.


TonyzTone

I mean, Mike Trout literally has a contract in place for another 8 years, taking him until he’s 38. Altuve only has a contract for 3 more years but I can also see him getting another short (hah!) contract after that so a total of ~8 more years isn’t unreasonable.


elroddo74

true to all of that. I hope Trout stays healthy, or gets healthy really because he hasn't been for a few years. Baseball needs all the studs it can get. Altuve can go do something else for all I care though.


runningman7000

you are smoking crack my guy, I dont even know who tf Posey is


elroddo74

Then your not a baseball fan, your just a Yankees fan. Not my fault you don't know who one of the better players over the last 20 years is.


drakanx

as with everything in life, it's all about timing. He was just unlucky to be included in a stacked list.


mickeyoutercore7

Molinas resume is a lot better. 2 WS, 10 all stars, 9 GG, SS, 4 platinum gloves, 2000 hits in 19 seasons. And all of that on top of consistently dominating defensively. Posada is definitely a HOFer tho. 17 seasons with 1 team, 4 WS rings, 5x all star, 5x SS and a 121 OPS for a catcher is very good imo. He’ll get in with the vet committee I believe.


Scandral

Posada had the unfortunate consequence of being on a stacked HOF ballot


Maximum_Ad_3739

So he's punished for it?


Scandral

Unfortunately yes, because some writers are still keen on wasting votes on Bonds/Sosa/Clemens/other steroid users. Some writers are just a bunch of shitheads. Case in point: That lone wolf writer who didn't vote Jeter in for....some reason.


JohnWCreasy1

more stacked: the HOF ballot or Jorge's wife? my man should definitely be in the HOF, but he's already won so much at life i think he's fine with it :p


Ven18

Are you using bWar for this comparison because it’s pretty well established that bWar is terrible for catchers because it doesn’t really represent stuff like framing well. I would not be surprised if the gap between the two is far more pronounced when using fWar. The problem with the HOF is the voters are stupid the list of players who should be in that aren’t for one reason or another is a mile long.


Romofan1973

Posada, who may have been as valuable as Bernie or even Jeter, was perceived as "just one of the guys". He also didn't do things to draw attention to himself---he wasn't a "character". Yadi is a deserving HOFer to me. His defense is legendary, and he's had a huge # of big plays---the opposite of Mike Trout, whose numbers pop but nobody remembers a thing that he did. Yadi also plays for baseball's darlings, the Cardinals. The Yankees are the Evil Empire.


glass_oni0n

Jorge will stand out in 10, 20 years as someone who’s egregiously missing from the HOF. If he had played ten years earlier or ten years later he would be remembered as one of the best catchers of his era. Sadly his offense was always compared to Piazza and his defense was always compared to Pudge, which are two of the most highest benchmarks in the history of the position. I actually think he stands a decent chance though, Jeter and Mo will carry a ton of sway on whatever veterans committee will be in charge of electing Posada.


Bradcam3

rWAR and fWAR are not generally as good at evaluating catchers as baseball prospectus’ WARP, and Molina has 60 WARP to Posada’s 38. I love Jorge, but it’s very clear that Molina has been a better catcher. There’s a foolish baseball video about Yadi that I think would convince you


icedout98

I get the argument for Posada to be in the HOF if you're a 'big hall' kinda guy. I think there are more valid arguments for him to be on the outside looking in though. 1. For such an underrepresented position, you need to be the best or close to it in your era. Piazza and Pudge were clearly better. 2. Posada debuted on the HOF ballot in 2017 and was probably around the 15th best player; he never really had a chance. Also a flaw of the voting system only being allowed to vote 10 guys and he only received 3.8% of the vote. 3. Even for a catcher, Posada's counting stats are well below HOF standards - (900 runs, 1,664 hits, 1,065 RBI, less than 400 doubles). His triple slash of .273/.374/.474 is really nice for a catcher but doesn't really stand out considering he played his prime years during the peak of the steroid era. 4. A lot of his case is relative to him being a catcher. However, he was a full-time catcher for only about 11 seasons maybe 12 if you piece his partial seasons together. Without diving into defensive metrics, I remember Posada being an average or maybe slightly above average catcher for a majority of his career, but I don't think he was that dominant on one side of the ball (where Yadi is) that you could make a really good case for him. Just my opinion.


TheRocket2049

Even if you're a big hall guy Posada is not a hall of famer. I know he's a Yankee legend but he was merely an above average hitter and at best an average defensive catcher. If he got in, pretty much any good player that last more than a decade is a hall of famer


ledbetterus

The problems with #1 is that Catcher should be almost a separate category, like Pitcher. It's "underrepresented" for sure. I don't think adding like 1% more Catchers to the Hall would be considered "big hall". Yadi, Buster, Munson, Mauer (a mostly catcher), and I'm forgetting a bunch probably.. but these guys should be no brain first ballot HoF. Tbh I always thought Jorge was a bubble guy, but as I grew up I realize the value of catchers, and now I think he should be in the Hall. And that Piazza and Pudge were roided the fuck up.


TonyzTone

>The problems with #1 is that Catcher should be almost a separate category, like Pitcher. It's "underrepresented" for sure. But Pitcher isn't a separate category in HOF balloting. It's not like you get 10 position votes and 10 pitching votes.


ledbetterus

Right but no one is comparing someone like say CC to a HoF hitter. They compare him to other pitchers. Where catchers get lumped in with every other hitter, instead of only catchers.


igotagoodfeeling

Agree with this. There’s simply no way to get the at bats playing catcher, getting those days off, even in the 90s and 00s- to accumulate stats comparing with other position players


elroddo74

Mauer played fewer than 90 games a year at catcher,during the 11 he played any catcher. He started more games at dh and 1b combined than he did at catcher.


Assasin-of-Eire

Best OPS+ for catchers (minimum 6,000 PA & at least 50% career games as a catcher)Mike Piazza (143)Mickey Cochrane (129)Bill Dickey (127)Johnny Bench (126)Ernie Lombardi (126)Gabby Hartnett (126)Yogi Berra (125)Jorge Posada (121) Ted Simmons (118), Carlton Fisk (117), Wally Schang (117), Munson(116) and Gary Carter (115). Other than Posada and Munson, the only person on this list who is not a Hall of Famer is Wally Schang. Posada and Munson Both deserve the hall.


Signal-Supermarket73

Here are the catchers in the HOF compared to Posada. I've always said that Jorge should be a HOFer: |Player|BA|OBP|SLG|HITS|HR|RBI|RUNS|SB|WAR| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |J. Posada|.273|.374|.474|1664|275|1065|900|20|42.7| |J. Bench|.267|.345|.476|2048|389|1376|1091|68|75.1| |Y. Berra|.285|.350|.482|2150|358|1430|1175|30|59.4| |R. Bresnahan |.279|.386|.377|1252|26|530|682|212|42.8| |R. Campanella|.276|.362|.500|1161|242|856|627|25|41.6| |G. Carter|.262|.335|.439|2092|324|1225|1025|39|70.2| |M. Cochrane|.320|.419|.478|1652|119|832|1041|64|49.9| |B. Dickey|.313|.382|.486|1969|202|1209|930|36|56.4| |B. Ewing|.303|.351|.456|1625|71|883|1229|354|47.9| |R. Ferrell|.281|.378|.363|1692|28|734|687|29|30.8| |C. Fisk|.269|.343|.457|2356|376|1330|1276|128|68.5| |J. Gibson|.374|.458|.719|806|165|725|611|40|38.4| |G. Hartnett|.297|.370|.489|1912|236|1179|867|28|55.9| |E. Lombardi|.306|.358|.460|1792|190|990|601|8|37.8| |M. Piazza|.308|.377|.545|2127|427|1335|1048|17|59.5| |I. Rodriguez|.296|.335|.464|2844|311|1332|1354|127|68.7| |R. Schalk|.253|.340|.316|1345|11|594|579|177|33.2| |T. Simmons|.285|.348|.437|2472|248|1389|1074|2|50.3|


TheRocket2049

So basically Posada is much worse than all the Hall of Fame catchers except for the ones from pre-WW2...


PyreDruid

>So why is Jorge not sniffing the Hall of Fame? Yes, Molina is one of the greatest defensive catchers ever. You said it, because Molina is one of the greatest defensive catchers ever.


_youngsterjoey_

bWar vs fWar, fangraphs is a lot more accurate/inclusive of catcher defense. Yadi is probably the best defensive catcher ever and Jorge was mediocre at best at fielding. Both multiple time champs, I’d like to see both get in, but objectively Yadi is probably the better player if you value catcher defense as much as it should be.


crabcakesandfootball

The BBWAA hasn’t inducted a hitter with under 2,000 hits since WWII. With 1,664 hits Posada never really had a chance. Molina is benefiting from the fact that we just don’t see catchers with long careers anymore. So while his stats may or may not show that he’s deserving (bWAR similar to Jason Kendall and Posada, fWAR similar to Russell Martin and Brian McCann) he’ll walk right into the Hall of Fame thanks to being the only recent catcher with high counting stats and a lot of all star appearances.


elroddo74

Jackie Robinson was voted in in 1962, career hits 1563. Never played a game prior to world war 2. Same with Roy Campanella and Ralph Kiner. Lou Boudreau ended his career in 1952, and was elected in 1970. This saying comes out all the time, but its false and people just believe it.


crabcakesandfootball

Lou Boudreau debuted before WWII. Ralph Kiner probably would’ve debuted during WWII if he didn’t serve in WWII. Jackie Robinson and Roy Campanella didn’t debut until after WWII, but there’s a good chance they would’ve debuted earlier if baseball didn’t ban black players. I’m not sure if people “just believe it” or if people just don’t care enough about the exceptions you listed since they don’t really change the point of the saying.


elroddo74

Except they do change the point, when you literally say something hasn't been done, and then someone gives 4 examples that disprove your point it proves that your point is a bullshit take made by people too lazy to actually do research. Its used as an excuse to eliminate a group of players from being granted the recognition they deserve.


crabcakesandfootball

Lol no it just proves that you’re being pedantic. The point is that the BBWAA hasn’t inducted anyone without 2,000 hits for a long time, and that still stands despite your nitpicking.


elroddo74

You and lots of others don't use the term "long time", you falsely say since world war 2. World war 2 ended in 1945, the last player elected without 2k hits is 1970. This excuse has been used since at least the 90's, when it actually cut off over half the time since it had last been done. Not to mention that 3 players didn't even start playing until after the war. Now your backtracking saying the point isn't what you originally stated, trying to use big words to look smart after your original statement was proven false.


crabcakesandfootball

Aww man for your sake I hope you’re just trolling and you don’t actually think like this. “Since WWII” just means no hitter who debuted after WWII. It’s just a simple shorthand way of saying it. Sure there’s Kiner, Campanella, and Robinson, but I’ve already explained why they’re obvious exceptions. No one is “excusing” the BBWAA for excluding hitters without 2,000 hits. Just explaining their trends. If you’re not trolling then I’m sorry that this misunderstanding has frustrated you so much. Also sorry if “misunderstanding” and “frustrated” are too big of words for you.


elroddo74

You obviously don't understand the definition of the really big word "any". You keep trying to change the meaning of what you mean, and yet you continue to miss the mark. Any isn't shorthand for shit, your argument is lazy, and it has been a lazy argument used by plenty of people for close to 30 years. I'm not frustrated, I just think your ignorant of what the fuck you type, and when caught you keep trying to change the meaning of a pretty cut and dry statement.


crabcakesandfootball

I’m not trying to argue anything. Everyone knows what people mean when they say the BBWAA hasn’t inducted any hitter with under 2,000 hits since WWII. Except of course for pedants like you who try to look smart by pointing out meaningless details.


elroddo74

Your one of those arrogant pricks who can't admit they are wrong even when the evidence is right in front of them. Did your mommy teach you a new word so you feel the need to keep using it instead of forgetting it?


Maximum_Ad_3739

So Mike Trout wouldn't make the HOF if he retired right now?


crabcakesandfootball

It depends on why he retired but they’d probably make an exception for a player with 3 MVPs and 6 other top-5 MVP finishes.


LostwingmanJustin

Alot of the voting is also biased (like that 1 loser that didn't vote for Jeter), Posada is probably in the top 2 catchers of his generation from an offense standpoint, hes not a gold glover behind the plate but his offense is just behind Piazza's. He didn't get enough votes and was dropped off the ballot the next year. Bernie, Cone deserve more HoF love.


l8terboss

Hof is a big joke with big poopi getting in besides many others. Seems like a popularity contest now full of hypocrisy just stopped caring about it. It’s hard for catchers they don’t play long enough and get enough abs when they do to compare their stats and Jorge played in the biggest steroid era. Yadier is a workhorse for sure tho that alone is impressive but that’s the main thing he has going for him is longevity


Coldcheeze

The argument for Molina is that the difference between Molina and Posada as hitters is somewhat smaller than the difference between Molina and Posada as fielders. Posada had 1574 games at catcher (28th all time). He allowed 984 stolen bases (35th all time). He had a 28% CS rate. Molina has 2151 games at catcher (4th all time). He has allowed 555 stolen bases (142 all time). He has a 40% CS rate. (numbers per baseball ref) That said, both are great catchers that should probably be in the hall. But, I think the Molina hype this year is more a product of it being his last year. It’ll be interesting to see what vote % he ends up getting.


jbaker1225

Not that Molina isn’t a much better defensive catcher than Posada, but that massive discrepancy in steals allowed is impacted a but by the fact that teams stopped stealing.


stefera

Teams stopped stealing against the Cardinals: "Going back to 2004, when a 21-year-old Molina made his MLB debut in June and went on to play in 51 regular-season games, the Cardinals have allowed 847 stolen bases. The next-stingiest team, the D-backs, have allowed 1,250." https://www.mlb.com/news/yadier-molina-prevents-steals-for-cardinals There's some selection bias in that article (who has an elite defense catcher for 17 consecutive years?) But still. Those numbers are impressive.


elroddo74

Steals are such a bullshit way to characterize catcher defense. Ivan rodriguez called an excessive number of fastballs when runners were on because he cared more about catching runners than he did calling a good game. Also by this logic Yogi Berra was way better than Molina because he allowed way fewer stolen bases with a 49% caught stealing, yet Yogi never won a gold glove. In fact Berra threw out a higher percentage than Pudge did, who threw out 46%.


Coldcheeze

It’s certainly just a small slice of the picture when it comes to defense that’s for sure. I didn’t mean to suggest that catcher defense could be whittled down to those stats. The vast majority of Yogi’s appearances at catcher came before gold gloves were awarded. He still might not have won one (as you noted he didn’t win one in the years he played after the award was created), but even considering the different era, I think Yogi’s CS% number is pretty impressive.


elroddo74

fun fact, he's actually only 33rd all time in percentage. Campanella was at 57.4%


Petwa75

bwar is a bad representation for catchers, as it doesn't quantify their defense nearly as well as others. fwar, for example, has molina at 55.7 and posey at 57.5, which makes sense, as they're probably the two best catchers of this generation that are generally perceived to be hofers. posada's, meanwhile, is 40.4, much lower than them and catchers from his generation, like piazza and pudge rodriguez. molina and posey's defense was just that much better than posadas. that said, posada has an argument to be in, especially since he played in the steroid era, and might have a shot with a veterans comittee


DrVanNostrand1973

The voters for the hall have for too long shown that they're totally biased and vote more on likeability than ability. I've long since stopped caring who gets in and who doesn't.


MeatTornado25

I'm sorry but Jorge is crazy overrated here. He doesn't belong in the hall.


RustyKarma076

Molina’s 42 WAR actually comes from baseball reference which doesn’t incorporate framing. Fangraphs has him at 55, and their calculation includes framing data. Fangraph has Posada at 40.5. Edit: Also just calling him a great defensive catcher doesn’t fully encapsulate the dominance his throwing arm had over baseball for nearly two decades. [Here’s](https://blogs.fangraphs.com/instagraphs/yadier-molinas-career-in-four-graphs/) one of my favorite articles about it


BretHitmanHart84

Honestly if he wasn't a Yankee he would be in the HoF, There is a definite Yankee bias, I am pretty sure a couple voters have even admitted it.


MIKE_THE_KILLER

It's crazy to see how good the Yankees were in the mid to late 90s.. FYI, Cashman did not build that team.


elroddo74

The only title cashman "built" was the last one, when George opened the checkbook and told him to go get some studs. CC, Tex and Aj Burnett all were bought, and Pettite came home for one last ride. Before anyone says Burnett wasn't a stud, he pitched 207 innings and had a 114 era Plus. Yes he was dog poop in the alcs and ws, but he helped that team win the most games in baseball that year and for one year at least he was worth his contract.


swordfishclaymore

They say they try to compare players to the players of their era amongst other things. There’s a long list of Yankees that sniff that outer circle HOF case. I’m sure a lot of them aren’t insanely bothered by it.


rag69top

Yadi batting average .278 better than Posada at .273. Hits Posada 1664 Yadi 2144 and counting. Yadi throws out over 40% of those stealing and there are probably a lot of players that won’t try to steal. Although that is a number that can’t be quantified. Has picked off over 50 runners. I didn’t pay attention to Posada’s career, not a Yankee fan. Those hit totals will play a big part in HOF.


Wraithpk

Don't know if you were using bWAR, but Molina's fWAR is 55, compared to 40 for Posada.


Maximum_Ad_3739

I take playoff performance into account. Posada was better in the postseason with 4 titles and 6 WS appearances.


Wraithpk

He was on better teams. And his playoff performance wasn't really better than Molina, Posada had a 97 wRC+ for his career in the postseason vs. 87 wRC+ for Molina, but Molina is a far superior defender.


Maximum_Ad_3739

So it's more important to be a superior defender than a superior hitter at the position?


Wraithpk

I never said that. If anything, it's the other way around. Jeter is a HoFer because he was an all-time great hitter at the SS position. Simmons is not because he's the inverse.


yukdumboobum26

I don’t think Molina should be anywhere near the hall of fame. He’s a good-fielding catcher who can’t hit for shit and happens to have played for a really long time. He’s basically the catcher version of Tony Fernandez, but a worse hitter, and with respect to Tony, he’s not a hall of fame player. I couldn’t give a shit about gold glove awards (Rafael Palmiero & Derek Jeter winning gold gloves de-legitimized the award) or all-star appearances (even more illegitimate — hell, Albert Pujols is an all-star this year and he’s one of the worst players in baseball this season).


valpo033

There are few of any players that I dislike more than Yadi. He is a huge bitch and I’d like to puke all over his stupid neck tattoo. Saying that, he is absolutely a Hall of Famer.


DevilKraze

Posada should be in. not molina


Kind_Bullfrog_4073

Must be because he stayed with 1 team. No wait that doesnt work. Because he won World Series. No that doesn't work either. Maybe it's because he has 2 brother catchers and he gets to combine their stats to his.


[deleted]

[удалено]


yankeefan03

“If Molina gets in based mostly on just defense, why does Posada not get in based mostly on just offense? Molina|Posada 33.5 bWAR |42.7 bWAR 33.4 fWAR |44.7 fWAR 30.2 JAWS |37.7 JAWS 108 HR |275 HR 1596 H |1664 H 422 XBH|664 XBH .285/.338/.400 (.738 OPS)|.273/.374/.474 (.848 OPS) 99 OPS+|121 OPS+ Even when it comes to the postseason, Posada was the better hitter/had more success and championships. Which is another thing BBWAA voters look at. How the hell did Jorge only get 3.8% on a ballot lmao.” Credit to /u/Constant_Gardner11 for these stats from another thread.


caldo4

We didn’t have the metrics we do today, but Posada was evidently very bad at things like framing and that kinda thing that Molina excels at. That’s probably the difference


Recognition_Tricky

Jorge Posada should absolutely be a hall of famer. Durable, offensive weapon who became pretty decent behind the plate. The Yankees elevate some players for sure, but Posada is sort of overlooked because he was a Yankee. During his time here, he typically batted 6th. On a lesser team, he'd be a top of the order guy. Anyway, I think Posada should be a hall of famer.


AaronFudge

Better then Ted Simmons


elroddo74

42 war isn't hall material unless your a reliever. Neither belong, but if the writers are that dumb then Munson belongs because he was better than either of them.


FroyoMNS

Molina has 55 fWAR. bWAR is a horrible stat for him (and catchers in general) because it doesn’t take stuff like framing into account.


elroddo74

Yeah I made the mistake of assuming that Molina's Fwar was the same or close to his Bwar. My bad, because I usually check both and tend to lean towards Fwar, however mlb reference overall is a more user friendly site.


Chris20nyy

Jorge Posada. The 20 in Chris20nyy. His gruff personality definitely didn't earn him points with the media. He was probably the grouchiest one from the core four. The man played a HOF career however. Someone will correct that egregious mistake.


OptimusChip

100% agree that Jorge Posada should be in the hall of fame. Don't need a WAR stat to prove that.


Kickstand8604

Someone on YouTube did a 16 minute video on yadi. War isn't a good metric to determine how good yadi is. If you look at his defensive stats, he is the best defensive baseball player in all of MLB history


trexsaysrawr

Yo where the fuck is posada fan I wanna know his take


Sh1bdib

Hip hip is probably my favorite Yankee. But he's not a hall of famer. He is as a very good catcher but I'm in the camp of keeping the hall for the elites of the game


Ionlypost1ce

Posada always seemed to get the last out in big games. But that’s just my personal take. I knew we were doomed when he came up with 2 outs in the 9th against the Sox in 04


Hufflepuff_Baseball

Contributing factor could be team roles. Molina has been a Cardinals headliner for the past fifteen years but Jorge kinda hid behind Jeter, Mo, and then A-Rod.


Pando-lorian

Posada was not nearly as good a hitter as Yadi was at defense.


dc912

During his career Jorge was never or rarely thought of as a HOF catcher but maybe history will remember him better. I could easily see him, Bernie, Cone, and/or Pettitte getting in via veteran’s ballot.


AsaKurai

[Watch this for the reason](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fphDdSdqI28&t=175s)


FroyoMNS

Because WAR sucks for catchers — it simply can’t quantify everything that goes into the position. bWAR doesn’t even take stuff like framing into account. fWAR has Molina at 55 WAR and Posada at 40. I view them as one tier apart, with Posada in Hall of Very Good and Molina as an Outer Circle HoFer.


MeterWatcher

bWAR doesn't account for catcher framing. fWAR shows Molina is a god at that and Posada very much was not. As for the postseason, according to cWPA Molina singlehandedly won the Cardinals half a championship over his career while Posada cost the Yankees half a championship.


ifeajayi14

Since we’re on the topic of catchers FUCK JASON VARITEK. That’s all