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kevin117s5

Isn’t the upper the serialized firearm part?


questformadness

Rats. Well there goes that. Lol


djbiehl6

The lower is the serialized part


wiggity-wack

No it’s not


djbiehl6

Ummm. Most likely the lower is. I'm not familiar if the scorpion breaks the mold in this case because I am not familiar with that platform but most firearms in general have their lowers regulated.


wiggity-wack

I’m 100% sure


wiggity-wack

I have had calls with stribog about selling the serialized upper in this state


Kip-ft

This isn't a scorpion.


questformadness

If not the AOW route, possible to hit 26" OAL with this? Listed as 14.74" length on Google. Maybe a welded skeleton folding brace (f*ckin waste) for another 9", and a pin/weld on a 3" flash can? Pipe dream if you can't find stripped uppers anyway...


jerseydevilfirearms

A stribog lower is good for nothing except a paper weight. A.lot of people are swapping them out for new scorpion lowers. They are not serialized. Jdf


rhyminreazon

I’ve read the original posts about AOW’ing the stribog. Those posts died, it seems the manufacturer either stopped responding, or they replied that it wasn’t possible and the posts weren’t updated.


questformadness

Yeah, I was thinking this Stribog pattern lower from A3 Tactical might fill that void, but a stripped lower is useless if they don't sell uppers. I'm starting to think this lower is being marketed solely as a sort of conversion kit for "existing" stribog owners to allow the use of CZ Scorpion mags, and not for building.


dr_bund

Buy it as a fixed mag pistol, then file for form 1. Add vfg, engraving once stamp clears, then remove fixed mag conversion and enjoy


Blak_Tooth_Grin

Have you done this before in nj, changed a fixed mag pistol to AOW?


dr_bund

Yep


vorfix

Just as a note, I would suggest against going this route. I’ve gone back and forth with the commenter about this way down in the weeds details of if it’s legal and what the firearm is treated as in NJ. If you aren’t aware of the nuances to make the risk assessment for yourself I would avoid it completely. For anyone wanting context, I am of the opinion that under NJ law anything transferred as a pistol and was originally designed or manufactured as a pistol is treated that way forever unless a FFL07 remanufactures it and that AOW’ing on a form 1 does not change that. This nuance matters IMHO because it means the AWB pistol features may apply to it regardless of later configuration. So you can AOW it in fixed mag form, since NJ AWB doesn’t apply to fixed mag, but if you change it to detachable mags the AWB pistol features apply again since it is still a pistol in NJ’s eyes and now falls under the AWB due to the detachable mag.


dr_bund

Yes I remember discussing that with you and again humbly disagree. Would love to be proven wrong backed by evidence. An approved Form 1 grants you permission to manufacture a firearm. Once a VFG is installed on a firearm under 26” in OAL it is not a handgun by NJ state and federal definition as it is now designed and manufactured to be fired by the use of two hands. I am the manufacturer of the firearm, I designed it to be fired by use of two hands and it is no longer a handgun. If i transfer a fixed mag AR pistol on a valid Nj pistol permit and is pistol on 4473. I toss the short barrel, add 16”non threaded barrel and fixed A2 stock, and remove fixed mag device, it is no longer a pistol. Doesn’t matter that it transferred over on a pistol permit once upon a time. If you can legally make it a rifle (which you absolutely can), you can legally make it an AOW as well. obligatory IANAL.


vorfix

Ok, not sure this will prove it but going through what you mentioned above and trying to break it down into smaller individual pieces. * On the first paragraph: Approved Form 1: Yes, this gives you permission to "make" a firearm under the NFA, *but* what that means is explicitly defined in law, 26 U.S. Code § 5845(i), and does not necessarily mean the firearm is "remanufactured" as you assert. The definition includes putting together or altering a firearm as "make." In addition, since this is federal law, there is no requirement for NJ to treat this as a remanufacture, and probably more specifically, NJ has specific laws around firearms manufacture in NJ which would likely prohibit someone not approved from doing so legally with NJ anyway if it were to be treated as such. [26 U.S. Code § 5845(i) "Make"](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845) >(i) Make The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under this chapter), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm. Handgun definition: This follows the previous assertion that the firearm was not remanufactured in the eyes of NJ with a Form 1. [NJ Rev Stat § 2C:39-1(k) "Handgun"](https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-2c/section-2c-39-1/) explicitly mentions "originally designed or manufactured" within the definition. This has similar implications to SBR or "weapon made from a rifle" under the NFA, if it was initially a rifle it is forever a rifle and NFA must be complied with for any changes to be made. Same case here, it was initially a pistol and any changes must keep it compliant with NJ law as a pistol. [NJ Rev Stat § 2C:39-1(k) "Handgun"](https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-2c/section-2c-39-1/) >k."Handgun" means any pistol, revolver or other firearm originally designed or manufactured to be fired by the use of a single hand. I am the manufacturer: The fact you applied for a stamp to "make" a configuration of a firearm requiring a tax stamp under the NFA to do so does not mean that it remanufactured the firearm in the eyes of NJ. Federal law and NJ law are free to differ. NJ has definition of manufacture and also separately regulates and has laws around firearms manufacturers as I noted above. As such, even if this activity were to be considered a "manufacture" under NJ law, it is likely you would need to be in compliance and licensed within NJ to do so before you could make such changes to the firearm even with a Form 1. I believe large parts of NJ Rev Stat § 2C:58 covers NJ firearm manufacturers/dealers, although I haven't looked much into the specifics. [NJ Rev Stat § 2C:39-1(j) "Handgun"](https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-2c/section-2c-39-1/) >j."Manufacturer" means any person who receives or obtains raw materials or parts and processes them into firearms or finished parts of firearms, except a person who exclusively processes grips, stocks and other nonmetal parts of firearms. The term does not include a person who repairs existing firearms or receives new and used raw materials or parts solely for the repair of existing firearms. In a similar fashion, the assembly or modification of an AR platform firearm from a stripped receiver does not make you the manufacturer of it in NJ. Similarly, under NJ law, in the case of a "other" to AOW conversion the classification of the firearm under NJ law doesn't change both configurations are a [NJ Rev Stat § 2C:39-1(f) "Firearm"](https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-2c/section-2c-39-1/) and more importantly the definition of "firearm" does not include "originally designed or manufactured" language. This is substantially different than when a handgun is used as the initial firearm for an AOW vs a prebuilt complete "other" or stripped other assembled into "other" configuration. * Now to your second paragraph: There are a bunch of things being conflated here. First how the firearm is transferred and treated/defined under federal law and under state law are related but distinct. As to the comment for making a rifle from a pistol. Again nuance, that is legal to do so under [federal law](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-pistol-rifle-without-registering-firearm), as pistols do not federally have a "originally designed or manufactured" clause in their definition as apposed to rifles/shotguns which do. However as is the case with the AOW, but in this case lacking the argument you "remanufactured" it with the Form 1, it is still a handgun under NJ law as it was "originally designed or manufactured" as a handgun. So you may make it into a rifle configuration but care would need to be taken to ensure all the AWB pistol features aren't present on the final result or the AWB does not apply ie fixed mag. Just as I mentioned in my previous old comments about this regarding the AOW from a pistol, you can do it, however the problem comes in making the resulting firearm compliant with the NJ AWB pistol features. Unlike the NFA which requires the payment of a tax before changing the configuration of a firearm that was originally a rifle or shogun instead NJ simply defines that the definition persists because it was originally created as a handgun. As a though exercise, if the NJ AWB were to magically go away overnight, I can't see any issues with AOW'ing a pistol in NJ then because even if the state were to say it still was a "handgun" it would not change much since nothing would be illegal about it in its later configuration. This issue here isn't that you can't or that its illegal to do so, the issue is the compliance work to keep it legal with the laws which apply to pistols which is the fundamental problem here. As an example, creating a AOW from a fixed mag pistol, which stays fixed mag in AOW form should be totally fine. The NJ AWB does not apply to fixed magazine pistols. Similarly, you could also create an AOW from a typical handgun, take a Glock add a VFG to the rail, you aren't over the two features allowed under the AWB. Only one I can see that might apply is #2 if they consider the VFG on the frame to count since it won't be mounted from a threaded barrel. Put simply, you would just need to ensure any firearm made from a pistol doesn't trigger the AWB... In my opinion it is much easier to start with a stripped receiver or complete "other" to completely sidestep this issue as they would not be Handguns initially and can ignore this. >A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following: >(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; >(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer; >(3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned; >(4) Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and/or >(5) A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm