T O P
  • By - jtcos

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jtcos

I do not know, but I already spoke to some lawyers that if/when the Supreme Court decides to rule in our favor, I'm going to apply for a carry permit and where it instructs me to attach "evidence of urgent need to carry a firearm" I'm going to write "see attached" and I am going to attach the Supreme Court decision. I would then make sure all other requirements are met and filled out and then would send a copy to a lawyer from the FPC so there is a record. I then predict that I would get a call or some kind of response saying something to the effect of "we need to wait for our AG to issue guidance on it..." (or some issue like that) to which I would have documented it for a potential future court case, or add to the various federal court cases that are in the system now that will probably be stopped by the courts until NYSRPA will be decided but would become active again if NJ refuses to abide by the decision should the Supreme Court decide in our favor.


oldtoolfool

Google "writ of mandamus" which is what you would want your lawyers to get if you get that answer upon filing your application.....


Sinky2086

Realistically, the soonest would be like 6 months after the opinion is released. Even if a federal court just happens to be hearing a NJ concealed carry case the very day after the opinion is released (and doesn't just flat out ignore it), the AG will ask for a stay of at least 6 months for the state to set up a system that is in accordance with new SCOTUS precedent. I hate to be a downer,, but realistically, you will see a new law that "permits any and all applicants" as long as they jump through some crazy nigh impossible to make hoops. Like 100 hours of certified range time under a NJ certified range officer (were they will be like one in the entire state) or you need to carry some form of non-existent insurance. Don't hope for concealed carry for at least one to two years from the opinion, as NJ will fight it tooth and nail.


jtcos

Yes. I get it. This has been said before. NJ won't go down without a fight and I half expect them to completely ignore any decision the Supreme Court makes if it forces them to issue handgun carry permits. However, it's a start and we need to start somewhere. If they back everything up and make things ridiculous, then that would be a contender for any future litigation. But it has to start somewhere. I'm not expecting it to be like West Virginia, or Texas with the carry permits right off the bat.


rhyminreazon

That would depend on the ruling. If they court rules that justifiable need cannot be enforced, New Jersey already had a tilt ally finctional carry permit scheme that can be seperated form the justifiable need standard. There is already a carry case that is placed on hold involving New Jersey that both parties have admitted that the outcome of the New York case will have an impact on that case. So once a ruling is issued the case is already teed up I would imagine at that point New Jersey would just have to issue a consent to sever justifiable need from the law. I’m sure it will still be a few months. But after a ruling is issued in the case, it would be a good time to get an application together and submitted in my opinion. Once it’s confirmed that nj will be shall issue there will be a rush and more delays than you can imagine.


Sinky2086

What I mean is NJ will add on objectively completable requirements but make them a high bar financially to overcome. If you have to pay for 100 hours of instruction plus the range time (because you know there will be like 1 instructor per county), yeah anybody can do it in theory but only those who are wealthy or really care will bother to complete the process. This is unless the SCOTUS says any form of carry permit is unconstitutional.


rhyminreazon

Yeah I hear you. And I agree that it will happen. But I don’t think the judge will give them 6months to craft a new law or new requirements. If these requirements have been sufficient for the states since the 1960’s, there is no reason they aren’t sufficient now. At least I believe that’s how they’d see it. And New Jersey will adjust the law as they see afterwards.


jtcos

They probably won't because the question was modified by them to whether the denial of the petitioner's permit application for self defense was unconstitutional. So in other words, they're not deciding on whether you need a carry permit or not, they're deciding on whether "self defense" is a good reason or not by itself. So at best, I think we can expect the Supreme Court to force the state to become shall issue.


target_meet_arrow

I would suggest taking a ccw class that's approved by the state before the case. One less hurdle when everyone is rushing around.


jtcos

I already have taken a Pistols Class from the NRA. The problem though is even currently for the very select few who CAN get a NJ carry permit, statutorily, the requirement is to go through firearms training every time you renew it every 2 years and that the completeion of the course must be recent. In other words, it's not good for life like most other states that require training and that's if NJ keeps that requirement for 2 years, what if they decide to become a pain in the a$$ and make the permit valid for one year?


target_meet_arrow

>the requirement is to go through firearms training every time you renew Not quite. >(b) Permits must be renewed in the same manner and subject to the identical procedures by which the original permit was obtained. The chief police officer, the Superintendent and the Superior Court shall process a renewal for a permit to carry a handgun utilizing the same criteria established by this chapter for the issuance of an initial permit. This includes, but is not limited to, a renewed showing by the applicant of need, a renewed demonstration of thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns, **as may be evidenced by recitation of all of the information requested on the initial application, including, but not limited to, the applicant's most recent qualification scores in the firing of a handgun.** The law does not state how long the training is good for just that you have to demonstrate that you know the material. NJ could change the rules but they are going to get sued if they do. If the standards they have for ccw training is good enough now changing them after the are forced to allow everyone to fairly apply is going to look real suspect in court where they will have to attempt.to explain why the change makes sense.


rhyminreazon

Correct, there is no training course required for a New Jersey carry permit. You qualify on you competency by a shooting test with 50 rounds. I believe 42 of the 50 have to be on target.


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jtcos

I suppose that anyone who wants to be there on the Steps, go there on Nov. 3rd. But just so you know, they can't hear anyone from the inside, because the walls are so thick. So it doesn't influence their decision in any way.


yxcjc

which is a good thing, SCOTUS shouldn't be influenced by crowds, no matter how small or big.


jtcos

Exactly. People still have a right to assemble at the steps of the Supreme Court because it's their right to assembly and right to speech. But the Supreme Court Justices, also have the right to ignore those people if they wish.


BigBrassPair

I am not a lawyer, but I expect NJ to simply pass one legislation after another to basically do the same thing forcing additional challenges. Should they run out of room for that, they will institute a massively bureaucratically & financially onerous scheme involving nearly unattainable training certifications. Failing that, they will pass laws that will make self defense itself a criminal offense. We will never have practical right to carry in this state.


BehindNJLines

Look to history: Illinois, and particularly, Chicago, tried to evade actually letting people own and carry handguns even after the Heller and McDonald SCOTUS decisions. Took a couple of years and a couple of add’l lawsuits but eventually they were forced to allow carry: https://illinois.concealedcarry.com/2015/07/22/chicago-illinois-concealed-carry-history/


BigBrassPair

So 6 years after Heller and 4 years after McDonald. Thats less than I thought. So assuming Supreme Court actually rules in our favor, we could get some sort of shall issue somewhere around 2028.


rhyminreazon

I agree, getting a carry permit is only the first hurdle. If there is ever a situation where you need to defend yourself with your firearm, is a whole different animal all together. But to some, staying alive and working though the aftermath is a better option than going in the ground.


tommy3rd

If I’m not mistaken, as it is right now you have to qualify every couple years and the permit lists every single pistol you are allowed to carry. It’s certainly not like the FL and Utah CCW permits.


microtrip1969

So if Scotus rules in our favor in this case or even the NY case what happens next depends on how they word the opinion. Should the opinion be written broadly but explicitly that’s good but it may leave wiggle room for NJ and or NY to create some sort of “shall issue” nightmare obstacle course requiring yet another law suit. However if the write the opinion narrowly but explicitly stating exactly what can and can’t be done and what is and isn’t an infringement then there will be little wiggle room. The court will most likely not do this though because they will assume NJ/NY will act in good faith. However, we know that isn’t how this state operates. So once the court deems something unconstitutional it’s illegal to do. So if NJ by result of a Supreme Court Decision becomes a shall issue state the application process will have to begin immediately because a process is already in place to obtain a carry permit. It will just need to me modified so that justifiable need is removed meaning no more pleading your case to a judge. I think it would look just like the FID process. My guess exactly like that. The only gotcha I can see is the fee. I can see them making it like 200$