T O P
kami_inu

Too good on a power level basis? Probably not. They don't really *do* anything broken by themselves imo. I don't know if I'm convinced that they're *healthy* for modern though, because they enable colour soup with the only cost being a tapped land.


Tyrinnus

If they didn't have cycling on them, I wouldn't play a copy.... Coming from the guy that begged for xanders lounge the moment I saw triomes printed.


grokthis1111

i'm still triggered the shards don't have a unified name like triome.


Sans_Titre1

I second this, usually mtg is very consistent in that aspect but not here and I'm a bit triggered to play a "lounge bar" as a land in my Grixis Shadow Deck lore wise ...


robot-0

Even WotC themselves regret not calling the Capenna ones triomes. It was on a list on things they learned from the last years worth of sets.


jangens1122

I actually think it should be the other way around. The name triome shouldn’t of happened, cuz now we have all the other lands in magic with unique names, then the 5 lands that end with triome, it would be more in tune with magic if they had more unique names


grokthis1111

i mean, fetches and shocks don't have unified names either like the triomes, just general attempt to be similar in flavor.


shadowstar314

They’re all euphemisms for lady parts at least


Legend017

Breeding Pool. Godless Shrine. Steam Vents. Sacred Foundry. Overgrown Tomb. What women have you been sleeping with???


neoteroinvin

Ur mum mostly


Tyrinnus

Bazinga


VeryDarkPenis

The type of women mama warned me about.


Tyrinnus

I literally call them triomes still. Like xanders triome


grokthis1111

jund triome.


Swarlolz

I hate they aren’t unified in name because like wtf.


Creyopa

OCD hitting pretty hard 🙉


grokthis1111

ocd? no. it just fucking awful to look them up.


ankensam

They should have named the triomes after the apexes.


Turbocloud

There used to be a time in modern where a tapped land within the first 3 turns was a death sentence in many matchups. The reason it isn't is free interaction - Triomes would only see Fringe play if it weren't for the elementals.


Bitterblossom

Pre Dominaria United, I would have said no, that the problem was Wrenn and Six. ​ Dominaria United has brought many powerful Domain cards that will start to have a strong impact on the format. Its too easy to make Leyline Binding cost W, Nishoba Brawler to always be a 5/3 trampler or Shadow Prophecy to look at 5 cards. Domain should have a deck building cost, but it really doesn't. Being 4 or 5 color used to have a consistency and deck building cost, but it doesn't anymore. Playing 4 color Omnath, without Triomes would be very painful on the mana base or force the deck to play slower to avoid shocking/bolting itself every turn. Example, turn 1 fetch find Temur Triome, then turn 2 find a basic forest or mountain and play Wrenn and Six, vs turn 1 fetch and decide if you want stomping ground or breeding pool based on the fetch that you have, or you're shocking yourself, if you have a counterspell, then you're shocking yourself or have to be able to fetch a basic mountain for turn 2. Its subtle, but its a huge cost, and adds a lot of complexity to the game. ​ I feel that Modern would be better without them, but that they're here now, and they won't be going anywhere. Realistically, banning fetchlands would make modern better, but that also will likely never happen.


aBABYrabbit

Banning W&6 would help. And personally I think it might be the most likely scenario. It just does too much at cost with very little effort.


Vaitka

Too good is hard to say, but the format is certainly worse off for having them without having powerful [[Wasteland]] or [[Rishadan Port]] stye effects. There's simply not enough ways to punish a deck for running a Triome for the splash, so 2-color decks become 3, and 3 become 4. There's pretty objectively no reason *not* to add the splash these days. W&6 is honestly the biggest offender for enabling multi-color blob though.


Se7enworlds

The problem is that we have effects like [[Ghost Quarter]]/[[Leonin Arbiter]], but W&6 stops them from being effective enough. And if we did have Wasteland then W&6 would be the best way to use it. It's an entire line of interaction that's been killed by one card


MTGCardFetcher

[Ghost Quarter](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/2/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223.jpg?1562272439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghost%20Quarter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/253/ghost-quarter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Leonin Arbiter](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/d/0d0f827b-ebc3-45a4-8d12-c71a14478038.jpg?1662523978) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leonin%20Arbiter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/16/leonin-arbiter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d0f827b-ebc3-45a4-8d12-c71a14478038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Moress

W6 is indeed an issue. Not only does it make any two land hand an insta keep as long as one of those lands is a fetch, but it also helps keep creature based strats out of the meta by killing any X/1 creature.


DressedSpring1

I don’t think we can say that w6 is pushing x1s out of the format when Ragavan and DRC have seen tons of play


Moress

A silly argument considering both these creatures dodge W6 as early as turn 3 or even 2.


Tyrinnus

3/3 and 2/1 dash... Checks out. Also silly considering they're often slotted in next to w6


ritaPitaMeterMaid

Uh…what deck is running W&6 and drc?


Tyrinnus

Zoomer Jund/ jund saga?


ritaPitaMeterMaid

I’ve never seen it there. Rag definitely, but not drc.


PartyPay

It's a Reid Duke special!


Tyrinnus

Really? Hm. Might have just been anecdotal evidence


ritaPitaMeterMaid

Likely. I play a lot online though and I’ve never seen it in any list there either. I stopped playing modern in 2019 and picked it back up this June, so maybe this was a thing people did more often in the past but not so much recently?


phclostermann

good ol' Jund. At least, i am anyway.


svenkirr

Delerium-based Saga Jund (my primary modern deck). Is it worse than having Ragavans? Perhaps. But I like having 12 Goyfs and Ragavan is pretty fuckin expensive. Maybe Id upgrade, but I just got my second copy of Boseiju last night.


saber_shinji_ntr

Well if we want to be honest, then W6 is definitely not the main issue, the main issue is Fetchlands. Put W6 in a format lile Pioneer and it would be dogshit. But fetches are the untouchable sacred cow of Modern so we push the blame onto other cards like W6.


Southern_Top_7217

With the new leyline binding 2-colour decks that play white as a make colour go to 5 colour decks purely because of these triomes


AAABattery03

This is it. While better mana punishing would be nice, the issue is, and always has been, Wrenn and Six. 2-mana to **literally have perfect mana** is just not an okay card. The fact that it is attached to removal and a self-propelling wincon is just egregious. The card should’ve been banned a whole year ago.


ragingopinions

The problem is fetchlands - but those are the “Ponder, Brainstorm” of Modern and nobody really wants to see them banned even though they are the card that breaks Omnath, fuels Six, etc.


boozenerd

Holy shit, I never even considered banning fetches until this comment but you're right! Ban fetches, W&6 would still be a very good planeswalker but to abuse the +1 you have to build around it like with Seismic Assault or something, and Omnath would be the same, still good but you'd have to actually build around it by running cards like Cultivate, etc. I'm gonna mull this over for but I may jump onto team ban fetch lands. Holy shit.


TheWagonBaron

>I'm gonna mull this over for but I may jump onto team ban fetch lands. Holy shit. Just play Pioneer then. You ban the problem card, not the enabler. W&6 is the problem card when it comes to smoothing out mana bases for 4/5 color decks, hitting fetches hits just about every deck in the format.


boozenerd

Only 4 and 5 color decks would really be hurt by banning fetches. Banning fetches then allows W&6 to be used creatively, not just to fix mana by recycling fetches.


Sinfultitan_001

Not even close, I almost exclusively run 2 color decks and fetches are a main staple must for consistency. Like the other guy said Ban W6 and omanoff, not the fetches! you want to get rid of the problem cards not the enabler cards because the enabler cards help with every deck in the format. the problem cards are only problem cards in the problem card decks. If fetches are banned modern is dead and my collection gets sold.


boozenerd

Fetches aren't needed in 2 color decks. They're nice, sure, but not at all a "main staple". So you'd throw a tantrum and sell if fetches were banned, even though it'd fix so much and only hurt problem decks, and make problem cards no longer a problem? That's petty and childish.


Sinfultitan_001

If you want to play competitively, have a resilient deck, A smooth mana base, and the actual ability to more often than not PLAY magic instead of just watching someone play solitaire on the other side of the table, the fetches are needed. There are to many variables in a game of magic that are not dependent on your card selection BUT can be curbed or accounted for by fetches. Fetches make any deck preform better. Period. Decks work better with than without, it's simple math and you can't argue the facts on that one. Also it's not petty or childish. It's called being invested in a format where certain cards are indemnable and if the small but loud majority ruin the format I love them I'm out. I deem modern the only format worth playing and if they Fuk up the only format I play then I'm done. Why would I hold onto a collection of paper I would no longer use? What am i suppose to do? just throw my collection in a closet, let it collect dust, and depreciate in value? THATS something a child would do. If the game is altered in such a way that makes it no longer fun or personally enjoyable why wouldn't I cash out and use that money on something better? That's called "cause and effect" not being petty or childish and it's definitely not a tantrum you fool. Lol. At the end of the day it wouldn't "fix" anything. First and foremost; If you don't like fetches play a different format like pioneer.... Cuz that's exactly what pioneers is, Modern... With out fetches, or as others have called it "modern light". Secondly; as others have said, moderns identity lies in the inclusion of fetches. Thirdly; where on God's green earth does your reasoning resonate with you that it's better to ban fetches? Doing so would ultimately negatively effect WAY more decks than to ban the 3 or 4 problem cards that are exacerbated because of fetches. the lack of extended logic there makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Sure let's piss off a TON of players, Ban and hurt a BUNCH of decks that shouldn't be affected over fetches vs. banning the 4 or so cards that are clearly busted and causing the problems in the first place in about 4 or so decks? Please by all means elaborate your logic there. This part is speculation but i'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess that you want fetches to go away instead of one of the problem cards because one of those problem cards is probably your pet and you don't want to see your baby get killed so you'd rather see fetches banned thus fukin' off everyone else's decks, their playability and enjoyment of the game instead.


boozenerd

Not at all. You could play competitively, with a resilient deck, with the ability to actually play before fetches. Sure they perform better, they perform quite well without them too. Did you play Standard or Extended back when orignal Ravniva block was out? 3-4 color decks were played competitively and did great. Banning fetches wouldn't ruin the format. No archetype dies (other than maybe 4c money piles) and it brings some archetypes back into T1/T2. It'd fix W&6, Omnath, and 4-5C money piles. It'd make Blood Moon, Ghost Quarter, and other cards designed to punish greedy mana bases relevant again. Pioneer is quite different than Modern beyond no fetches. It wouldn't hurt any decks other than 4-5C money piles. Every other archetype would be fine. Bad stab, I own no W&6 and no Omnath. I'd just like to see Modern be better and after reading that other guys comment and thinking on it, banning fetches makes a lot of sense and would do that.


FlonDeegs

Bruh banning fetches is not going to happen, that would be like banning force of will in legacy, fetchlands are a key piece of modern, without them the format would feel way less powerful, modern is all about being able to play the cards you want to play, without fetches that’s a lot more difficult. Banning W6 makes way more sense because it’s the card that makes fetches seem broken, without W6 sure we can still run greedy mana bases but not to the extent they are now with blood moons in 4 color decks and shit, banning fetches is ridiculous when W6 is the obvious choice


FlonDeegs

We run fetches in Elves which is mono green until sideboard, the ability to have your land shuffle your deck is one of the main reasons fetches are soooo good, with realmwalker on the field if we have a fetch we get to say nope to whatever’s on top and get a shuffle for a second look. So even decks that are essentially mono colored run fetches, they’re just amazing but I don’t think they should be banned, banning W6 takes out 1-4 cards in someone’s deck banning fetches could remove 4-12 and that just feels so much worse when we spent real money on those fetches


throwawayguy746

Banning fetches instantly kills nearly every 3 color deck and makes even 2 color decks get wrecked by blood moon


boozenerd

Not at all. 3 color decks existed and competed fine before fetches.


levetzki

Format was slower and also modern always had fetches. So you are comparing standard to modern. Though it's likely that three color decks would still exist. It doesn't check out to say that 3 color decks where fine as it was a different format. That's like saying the 5 color mana base from the Lorwyn/alara is perfectly fine. (Vivids plus reflecting pools) The deck played cruel ultimatum and wrath of God. Pretty insane mana base. Yet even with better non fetch lands than vivids and still having reflecting pools we have nothing like that.


TheWagonBaron

>Only 4 and 5 color decks would really be hurt by banning fetches. Yeah, guess fuck Mill then huh? Fetches are a backbone to my Modern deck. If they ban them, the deck probably doesn't function nearly as well as it does now.


boozenerd

Sure it does, mill just switches to cards like Prismstic Vista. The only negative for mill is they won't get free Archive Traps off of opposing fetches.


TheWagonBaron

So take out the most powerful card and nerf two of the best mill cards in the deck? Yeah okay. Mill would be dead. Prismatic Vista isn’t good enough on its own to sustain the crabs.


boozenerd

It wouldn't be taken out and not much of a nerf. The deck would have to adjust slightly, that's all, it'd hardly be dead.


Sans_Titre1

Are you serious guys Banning Fetch ?? They are part of modern identity and have been a big expense and sure value for ALL modern player base. I am not saying that the effect would not be good ,but man that would not generate massive rant but protest and riots in LGS lol Kidding aside, I agree on one point : Modern 4/5c decks have become to easy and needs more hate, and I would also really like some options to play good old mono color competitive decks.


looksatthings

I would love modern playable wasteland. I understand the WOTC doesn't want easy land destruction in modern, but like a 'destroy target land: opponent scry 1/2 or whatever, they may play a basic land if from the top of their library until end of turn' effect would be ok, I think. Hell, if they are going to encourage soup decks with triomes, then wasteland is necessary. 3+colors are very easy are easy to pull off in modern and would actually improve the game play of modern.


AkechiFangirl

Ghost Quarter is probably as good as we're ever gonna get.


looksatthings

Possibly, I'm dreaming of a Sinkhole christmas.


AkechiFangirl

I can certainly see a world where Sinkhole gets printed in MH3 or something but that's different from a Wasteland effect since I'm pretty sure the prerequisite of being a "Wasteland" is being a land and not a spell. LD spells are a separate category for me.


looksatthings

Agreed. Eedit: I want both.


Legend017

My fever Dream


MTGCardFetcher

[Wasteland](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/a/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0.jpg?1590511888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wasteland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/248/wasteland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rishadan Port](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/2/d2507bc2-da17-4e46-b4c5-ba0080ce2c6f.jpg?1562441604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rishadan%20Port) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/246/rishadan-port?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2507bc2-da17-4e46-b4c5-ba0080ce2c6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Gods_Shadow_mtg

triomes are not the issue, w6 is. We need land hate strategies in the format but w6 completely invalidates that. it's the reason why field or ruin etc are not being played at all. Why ruin your own manabase if your opponent gets the lands back before you can even start destroying them anyway? get rid of w6 and actually make going for additional colors a tradeoff again!


i_am_thefoo

I was wondering why I don't see field of ruins any more though I have opted to keep them in a uw control deck I think w6 while powerful and easily splashable banning him won't solve the issuse indefinitely, eventually you see more planeswalker printed that will become an issuse. I think WotC needs to invest in instant speed interaction or hate cards for planeswalker interaction Seeing an enchantment or artefact taxing planeswalker activations or some reasonable [[stifle]] effect to mitigate planeswalker. I know they're meant to be all powerful allies but I always feel useless when my opponents slam walker after walker and I have to wait till my turn to interact with them


driver1676

The issue isn’t planeswalkers in general, it’s W6.


Gods_Shadow_mtg

planeswalkers just shouldn't be 2 mana spells because they accrue too much value and are too difficult to deal with. Everyone knew that w6 at 2 mana going up to 4 loyalty was pushed beyond belief right from the start. We just have to design planeswalkers more considered


i_am_thefoo

While I agree with that statement you can in a slightly less vocal way say the same stance to three mana walkers, I still stand by the lack of ways to interact with activations of their abilities is the biggest issuse


MTGCardFetcher

[stifle](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/1/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4.jpg?1562865442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stifle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/108/stifle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


hsiale

If W6 makes Field of Ruin bad, the solution is to print a Field if Ruin that exiles, triome decks don't play multiple copies, so even if they get back a fetch, they'd be forced to get something else.


FlonDeegs

This could be nice


changelingusername

That would still be hard. Does the land exile itself so W6 can’t exploit it? If the land exiles itself, then you have up to 4 hits and decks running W6 can easily soften that while only make you lose time focusing on their lands.


hsiale

Details need playtesting. But if I wanted to print something that hates on W6 and fetch/shock/triome manabase, I would start from Field of Ruin, but exile instead of destroy, plus exile a land card from graveyard, plus do X damage to any target, where X is number of basic subtypes of the land you destroyed from the battlefield. And then of course both players search for a basic. The idea being something that is equivalent to Field of Ruin getting extra utility against triomes/shocks and things recurring fetches.


BTYOR

The problem, if there is any, is that they are cycle lands that are really good actual lands compared to the old school ones like tranquil thicket. Modern mana fixing has always been really good, I think W6 guaranteeing land drops as long as it lives, and rebuying them after cycling is the problem. With W6 you are making every land drop, so the 3 cycle cost is less cumbersome if you have made every land drop. You could argue that's not actually a problem as well. I don't think they have substantially improved mana fixing enough that it's a problem.


Tyrinnus

Don't forget that W6, aside from having a game winning ult... Comes down big and outside of kill range, then proceeds to pull 5-10 cards out of the deck. It's ACTUAL thinning, unlike regular fetching that makes no statistical difference.


ChriMakesAllTheDrugs

Also W&6 allows for greedy keeps. I recently played against Rhinos where my opponent could keep a 1 lander with a dork. Having 6 spells in hand and still hitting all your landdrops is immensely powerful.


changelingusername

Been saying this for a long time in my playgroup. W6 + two lands including one fetch is generally a keep.


boozenerd

How does fetching make no statistical difference? It still pulls another card out. It's minimal, but it has to make a small difference, right?


Tyrinnus

Can't find the well formatted explanation I read years ago, but this is an OK version that I found just now off Google. https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-archives/91308-fetch-lands-deck-thinning-is-a-myth


boozenerd

It says it thins your deck and gives you a few % higher chance of drawing a spell over a land right in the beginning.


T3chn0Punk

I mean 3% is a lot more than I'd thought it be with what everyone was saying


kewlkid77

Print back to basics and price of progress


WateryGravy

This is such a joke everytime it gets posted think it will punish 4/5 color decks. First they are already big underdogs to Burn so if you want to beat them... play Burn! If Back to Basics was in Modern, 4C would just switch to a Prismatic Vista mana base that they used pre-MH2 in the Niv days, sure it would slow down Leyline binding, but otherwise because of W&6 (not to mention recurring Boseijus) and Omnath, they won't really care. They might even start running it themselves as a sideboard juke against big mana.


evilchronic420

Reprint Strip Mine. Make everyone a target.


driver1676

Sure, but then it’d force everyone to run W6.


karawapo

A fast answer and a slow answer. I love it. Wrenn and Six doesn't care about many responses to nonbasic lands, but Price of Progress doesn't care about Wrenn and Six.


Petrol_Oil

I don’t think PoP is the solution people think it is. The card is slow, so by the time it does enough to truly counter the 4c/5c piles, those decks have either played Omnath and gained life, or they’ve done their game-winning combo. On top of that, even 2-color decks run fastlands, shocks, etc. Do we really want to give Murktide access to PoP?


karawapo

4 damage PoP is actually good enough, and Burn needs some more good spells. It also doubling as a good top deck in long games sounds perfect to me. It might not always be enough as you say, but it should be better than most things Burn can draw in a world without Fireblast. And this might be what makes it ok as opposed to op.


Due_Clerk_2261

Fetches are always going to be the true problem, but since they won't ban fetches and certainly not triomes either, you ban Wren and Six instead.


wyqted

This. Fetches are the most broken cards in modern/legacy. But you will never ban them


Due_Clerk_2261

It's one reason I'm very big on pioneer right now. It also makes for better gameplay when you aren't shuffling as much


Tyrinnus

So much this. I love modern so much. But banning fetches madepioneer smoother and cheaper. Granted.... I love shuffling my deck. It's soothing. Hell, when I have a stressful day, I sit at my computer and shuffle my grixis deck.


CapableBrief

Hand me a 60 of 40 cards pile of any card game and it's 100x more effective than any fidget or stress ball or anything else really.


defeatedbycables

I paid for the cards so I don’t mind shuffling so much, at least I get to see all of them.


JuneBlue58

Could not disagree more. Fetchlands help mitigate the variance inherent in lands as a mechanic and makes more games of Magic simply playable. Being able to reliably play the game is kind of important before all other considerations, and the lack of fetches are a reason why I *don't* play Pioneer. Lack of good answers to greedy mana bases is the problem, not the existence of a basic game balance tool.


DragonHippo123

There are good answers to greedy mana bases. However, there is also a lot of fixing with low deckbuilding restrictions to counter it, *fetches being one of those*, as well as cards like Abundant Growth. On top of this, there are ways to answer every permanent/spell type in Modern for zero mana (Forces/Incarnations) and the 3-4 color decks will always play some number of them. Not to mention, it’s also just hard to print “good” answers to greedy mana without punishing every multicolored deck in general.


JuneBlue58

And this is why my position is leaning towards banning triomes, as neither fetch lands nor Abundant Growth are at the heart of the problem. Failing that, though, the answers to greedy mana need to improve.


DragonHippo123

My point being that triomes definitely aren’t at the heart of the problem, as they factor in nowhere in the ways I listed above. Triomes don’t dodge greedy-mana hate any better than other nonbasics. The mana hate didn’t get worse. The answers to it got better.


boozenerd

Only if you're running 3-5 colors. And if you are, that variance SHOULD be there, there should be a cost and a risk to running 3-5 colors.


JuneBlue58

Variance in access to the most basic resource in the game is bad, because it makes some games simply unplayable and that sucks. If I could change one thing about Magic, I'd be getting rid of lands and implementing a different system for mana that isn't affected by variance. The cost of playing 4-5 colours should be in how quickly and safely you can do it, not whether you can do it at all or consistently.


boozenerd

So don't build a 4 color deck. That's a risk running multiple colors takes, or at least used to.


changelingusername

Based. Many 3+ colors decks are too well-rounded as of now. Why? Well, they play with almost the entire color pie. Also, red having blood moon and being the best color at screwing mana, while also fixing it with treasures is quite dumb.


Swarlolz

Blood moon is the only good answer to mana right now. Ghost quarter and fulminator are bad because w6 exists.


changelingusername

Yeah but it punishes decks without treasures and w6 mostly, so it’s actually not answering mana of the best decks in the format.


puffic

I think Pioneer has more consistent mana bases than Modern. Without fetches, you usually play only two colors, but you get to fill up on powerful utility lands that smooth out mana flood situations. The end result is more games in which you get to do things. It’s one of the things that most clearly separates Pioneer from Modern, imo. If you want consistency, go play Pioneer. If you want complex interactions and gameplay, Modern is better. (The consistency also makes Pioneer matchups more lopsided, I think. Some people won’t like that. Variance can be good!)


driver1676

If you find that there’s a real cost to being able to play every card in the game, then I think the answer should be that you need to accept that risk rather than enable perfect 5 color mana bases. Otherwise, what’s the point of colors? Just get rid of the system all together.


Hotsaucex11

Eh, there are ample fixing options that don't carry all of the secondary benefits that Fetches provide. Fetches being the premier fixing for 3+ color builds AND providing graveyard fodder, shuffling on demand, and other random synergies just makes them too good.


JuneBlue58

Hard disagree, but Pioneer is over there for you to enjoy if you don't like Modern. Personally I'm glad Modern is the way it is; I've tried Pioneer and it sucked.


Hotsaucex11

You are conflating Modern with fetches, there are a LOT of differences between the formats beyond fetch access.


JuneBlue58

No shit, lmao.


FlonDeegs

Yes go team ban W6!


TheVampirePrince

I think WoTC has just pushed MTG into being a color soup game. Even if you look at legacy which has an abundance of hate/interaction for lands there are still 4-5c soup decks that are very powerful. I think it's just a part of magic now and it would take some serious bans or new printings to change that.


FlonDeegs

One serious ban would go a long way… W6 is a bitch


TheVampirePrince

Not really, W6 is banned in Legacy and they have an abundance of land hate and they still have 4/5c piles. Rhinos also is 4c pile now in modern that doesn't care about W6. W6 ban wouldn't do much IMO.


BTYOR

The 4 and 5 color decks in legacy aren't that successful because of wasteland. They still exist, but are by no means a problem or that common. A cursory mtggoldfish search would immediately dispel the point you are trying to make.


FlonDeegs

I’m fine with some 4-colors decks working, that’s not what the ban would solve. W6 is just a busted card and makes playing the game less fun, I know there would still be 4c piles running around but without the consistency and annoying gameplay of W6 it wouldn’t be as frustrating to play against, playing blood moon or field of ruin might actually help against the 4c piles if W6 is gone, in legacy they have broken cantrips that can draw you out of mana screw, that’s harder to do in modern without falling behind, W6 makes the cost of playing 4c money piles only the money, no real in-game cost to just playing all the colors with them around. I just think the ban would be a quality of life ban less so a stop the 4c ban, it would make the deck weaker tho for sure


TheVampirePrince

I mean, Glimpse, Domain/Zoo and Rhinos all show 4c/5c doesn't need Wrenn to be a strong deck. If anything 4c Blink/Elementals just play some more lands in those slots if Wrenn gets banned. I think a W6 ban hurts decks like Creativity, Scapeshift and Jund much more then the color soup piles.


Reon88

I consider that they are healthy as long as the capability to use them is balanced in the same axis but in opposite direction; the capability to punish and the capability to capitalize them should be equal or proportional, which is not the case due to W&6 being the enabler and Omnath4C the unrestricted benefit. There should be a punishment for the enabler and the benefit, and those punishment cards should be in the same power level.


rod_zero

The problem is fury, which protects decks against aggro starts. You can't use the tempo they lose from fetching a triome when they can play fury without using mana and wipe your board.


jared2294

I so hope they ban it so we can see tribal again. And honestly, this new leyline is so damn dumb


Hainto14

I doubt it, I feel like the more likely offender is W&6 for 4c-5c piles. Also the fact that they come into play tapped is huge. Modern is a fast format and them coming into play is a drawback.


cholitolendo

They are incredibly slow. That’s the trade-off. I love seeing a tapped land come out because it means I get one more turn which in modern is all you need.


Cambrian_Creek_Farms

Forced tap is the single biggest downgrade... Fetch viability is the single biggest upgrade... It kinda feels like this card is epitome of balanced. Further to that the plethora of hate cards they welcome, doesn't say ban me, it SCREAMS play non basic land hate in the main!


JuneBlue58

I am beginning to agree that they are a problem for Modern. The format is very healthy overall, but it would be better with fewer 4+ colour decks running around with insufficient opportunity cost for being such. If there was more land/greed hate efficient enough for Modern play it'd be okay, but right now there's a definite imbalance.


HammerAndSickled

Lol. There’s a 2/1 in the format that’s a manadork, manafixer, draws cards, has an aggressive statline, and even sometimes has haste, that must be answered starting from turn 1 or you might just lose on the spot... And you really woke up and said “you know what I’m gonna complain about? Taplands.”


Legend017

Hey, The equivalent of Dark Ritual, Ancestral Recall, and two Lightning Bolts for the cost of R and a couple attack steps is totally fine.


Banshee_42

Triomes aren’t the problem…[[Omnath, Locus of Creation]] is the problem.


FlonDeegs

Omnath and Wrenn are stupid cards let’s ban those first before talking about triomes or fetches right


MTGCardFetcher

[Omnath, Locus of Creation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/e/4e4fb50c-a81f-44d3-93c5-fa9a0b37f617.jpg?1639436752) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omnath%2C%20Locus%20of%20Creation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/232/omnath-locus-of-creation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e4fb50c-a81f-44d3-93c5-fa9a0b37f617?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


wrightj831

Wrenn is the problem and will be banned eventually


Diskappear

its not the triomes that are a problem, they come in tapped and cycle for 3 sure but the problem is W6 being able to recur the fetches that get you the triome regularly is the problem and what makes these 4 and 5 color decks the way they are because with W6 on board and a fetch in the GY you pretty much have perfect mana for omnath, and now leylines on turn 2 if W6 eats a ban (and i truly hope it does) the format will shift away from this 4 and 5 color pile


AllIdeas

Nope. The fetches are too good.


Res_Novae

Fetches let you play the game. Formats without fetches have so much more non games.


driver1676

I play mono color and have never had issues with non games. Perhaps there should be a cost to being able to play every card in the game


AllIdeas

This. I'm not opposed to fixing, but it needs to be balanced against the benefits. The benefits are enormous crowding out all other lands, manabases and many strategies e.g. every monocolored deck and even dual colored deck is basically pointless.


driver1676

I was almost offended by the printing of Leyline Binding, a card that seems egregiously good as a reward for… being able to play every card in the game at no cost. Where’s our Leyline bindings with Adamant? Playing more colors is a benefit, not a cost.


TheBig_blue

Imo they probably are a bit too good. 3c fixing in a format where you don't have to make a T1 play or have the option to get another land is always beneficial. However it's far more a factor of them being fetchable and W6.


FourDogsinaHorseSuit

No. It's fetch lands. We've had 3 color lands etb tapped+upside for years and it's only because fetches you're even asking this.


Rift_Recon_7

Pitch elementals are too good for Modern.


ExtensionHedgehog528

Triomes definitely feel like a mistake, back when ikoria dropped them I thought they were a bad idea because they reduce the deck building cost of adding colors significantly. Are they too strong? Maybe.... But I can't see them banning a cycle of lands. I also don't mind removing non-games of magic because you can't cast your spells (with nothing else happening, just bad rng). I really think modern needs better non basic hate, I'm usually the guy running blood moon in the main for fun and it very rarely matters. There's so many base red decks in the format, and also very few cards even need more than 1 pip of color - that fetching for basics before moon comes down barely hurts. Not sure what they would do, but if they were to print a wasteland type card then ban wrenn and six because of it - would be interesting to say the least.


Thulack

Is there really that much difference between 2 fetches getting you 4 colors and 2 fetches getting you 5 colors? I dont think so.


lawney97

But before any triomes you would have to spread your fetches a lot more in order to have 2 get 4 colour. This makes mana screw more likely and was how you could get punished for the greedy manabase With them it is any 2 fetches getting all 5 with no effort means that you are a lot less likely to get mana screwed.


syjte

It's not about 4 vs 5 colors I think. Without triomes, 2 fetches only let you cast XY cost spells. Triomes let you get all 4 colors, and still be able to cast a XX spell of the color of your choice. For example, I can get all 4 Omnath colors with Raugrin Triome and Breeding Pool, and still have the option for W6 on T2 or to hold up Counterspell.


Linnus42

Right basically u can tune the selection to play any combo of 4 different multicolor spells and ur choice of XX spell pretty easily.


AcrobaticHospital

Although it is a difference nonetheless


utamog

This is a new sub low imo. People really will complain about anything.


ursisterstoy

The triomes are often the worst land in the deck *unless* they are fetched on your opponent’s turn after you didn’t have anything better to do. Like if you have no turn 1 play fetch for a triome or play it. If all you have are reactive plays and your opponent doesn’t do anything you need to react to fetch for one on their end step. After you have a bunch of mana and all your colors they are better off as expensive cycle effects so that on a future turn you have something better to do. Now if they weren’t tapped when they came into play if you payed 2 or 3 life like a shock land, then I don’t think people would play shock lands over the triomes. They probably still wouldn’t be broken only helping with domain or getting all 5 colors by your second turn as you’re still able to cast a 2 mana spell, but they wouldn’t be as bad only as they are such that people only play singletons if they include them at all.


pear_topologist

The “minimal downside” is that it comes in tapped


Theatremask

No. The decks people are associating with triomes are the 4/5C piles which have a laundry list of issues that naturally come with value decks. The triomes help out decks like domain zoo which are impacted by the cards that typically hose decks that are greedy on the manabase. Regardless if you think the problem is with omnath, abundant growth, w&6, ragavan, elementals, etc. it's clear that piles decks are not hurt by the traditional weakness.


Last_Braincell_Cant

I play edh, as for color rigging. I’m a fan of the fetch lands from new cappenna


aaronasudevil

This question is so irresponsible, and reads as if you are looking to get a hot take on what other people think instead of formulating your own opinion. Modern, as a format, is just fine. There are cards that 'feel' better or worse, only because many aren't trying to brew or find the answers themselves, instead waiting for the 'aspiringspike's of magic to brew and be creative to show you how ok modern is, and tell them what is good or bad. Stop trying to find something wrong with Modern, instead create and Innovate.


DiscountParmesan

fetches + shocks are very close to being 5 colors untapped lands, i would start there if something were to be considered too good for the format