T O P
RingOfMaRufBalls

As a Fish player, this Flash Merfolk/Faeries deck has me super curious. Definitely what I’m going to sleeve up and give a shot this week. Just need those Brineborn Cutthroats and we’re good to go.


driver1676

I know there's a lot of gatekeeping as to what counts as "Ponza", but is it just synonymous with "Midrange" now?


cyberGupi

GR Midrange is basically what Ponza evolved into. LD is just not as good as other cards that you can run in the list right now. Your still running the tools to T2 Blood Moon to slow down your opponent, aswell as other typical tools in that deck that both GR Midrange and Modern Ponza play. Pillage just gets swapped in and out deppending on the meta. Blood Moon is also just better resources denial than LD currently. And yes other decks run Blood Moon aswell, but GR Midrange has a heavy focus on playing it on T2 to lock out or slow down your opponent. Been playing Ponza for around 2 years straight now and have Pillage and other LD in my Deck Binder where i keep every potential card for the deck. Deppending on the meta, i run LD or i dont, im not gonna swap the name of the deck when im not running LD. In paper tournaments people will always call my deck Ponza, even if i dont run LD.


Hexdrinker99

Pillage is not good right now so we aren't playing them. The rest of the shell is literally ponza with out pillage. The 8 stone rain version hasn't been played in years at this point I'm not sure why this question gets asked so much.


TehSeksyManz

The name should be changed


TemurTron

Without the Ponza name it’s just RG Midrange. Affinity went years without having an actual Affinity card be stock. As long as they have Blood Moon in the 75, the deck still fucks with opposing lands, so I think Ponza is more than fine.


throwaway4786328

Sure but a huge majority of players dont even know the what Ponza means or how the deck got that name. It also barely resembles original Ponza. Ponza isnt a keyword like Affinity. It's outdated or at the very least tremendously misused.


wrightj831

I veiw ponza as a gruul midrange deck playing Elf/Sprawl and blood moon. Land destruction isn't relevant anymore and the name has too much mystique to abandon.


Hexdrinker99

Or we could ignore you. I like that idea better


TehSeksyManz

Then why did you write this comment?


Jasmine1742

We should call it RG murkless murktide.


driver1676

I play a mono red list with Blood moon. I call it mono red midrange, would you call it Ponza? Or is Ponza just "mono red midrange + green"? Or is it "a deck that used to play land destruction"? I'm asking what Ponza tells you if not "GR midrange", because if someone asked me to put together a GR midrange deck it'd look nearly identical to that.


AcademyRuins

Here's the same discussion circa 2015. >I play an artifact aggro list without any Affinity cards. I call it Robots, would you call it Affinity? Or is Affinity just "artifact creatures tribal"? Or is it "a deck that used to play Thoughtcast"? I'm asking what Affinity tells you if not "tribal artifacts", because if someone asked me to put together an aggro artifacts deck it'd look nearly identical to that.


HammerAndSickled

This is a fallacy called equivocation. The canonical example is “Nothing is better than true love. A ham sandwich is better than nothing. Therefore, a ham sandwich is better than true love.” Here, the word “nothing” is being used secretly in two ways: one, “nothing is better than X” meaning X is at the top and nothing can surpass it, and the other “Y is better than nothing” meaning that having something is better than not having it. It’s a silly example but it shows how obscuring the meaning of things can lead to fallacious arguments. The Affinity example, the difference is Affinity is a named mechanic (“Affinity for Artifacts”) but ALSO the name of an archetype, hyperlinear Aggro based around artifacts. The name “Affinity” with regard to the archetype does NOT require the presence of cards with the affinity mechanic, and it never has, we just use the same name because of the history. Same reason Eggs played zero cards with Egg in the name (the original namesake being Darkwater Egg, etc) and Jund can still be Jund playing zero cards from Alara. Archetype names do not require strict adherence to their namesakes. In contrast, the word “Ponza” specifically refers to midrange strategies based around land destruction. There’s no equivocation fallacy because Ponza doesn’t mean anything else in any other context, it means what it means and it isn’t tied to any other namesake like a mechanic, setting, etc. Therefore, people using Ponza to describe non-land destruction decks are just using terms wrong.


salgarj

>Therefore, a ham sandwich is better than true love. There's no fallacy there.


AcademyRuins

Or they consider Blood Moon to be akin to LD


tomtom5858

Ponza has always been a RG midrange deck based around denial of proper access to one's mana while applying pressure with efficient threats; it's more land *disruption* than land *destruction*. In this way, Magus and Blood Moon both serve the same role that Stone Rain and Pillage did of denying one's opponent access to what they need to cast their spells. Perhaps it's not that people are using the term wrong, but that you don't understand it?


xBlackthunderx

Ponza literally meant land destruction, not disruption at its inception. You can talk about how BM equates to the rain effects but you’re getting the term wrong not them > Ponza is a nickname for a land destruction deck. According to writer Riley Knight, it was named after a deep-fried pizza dish > The deck can be split up into different classes of cards crust (land), meat (creatures), red sauce (Land Destruction), and ramp (veggies). A perfect balance.


driver1676

Sure, but I'm not asking about Affinity.


throwaway4786328

Yeah that was a god awful analogy.


throwaway4786328

Is Ponza a keyword printed on cards? Is it even a word used in the game of magic? no.


Ironshield185

Pretty sure Ponza included land destruction and disruption. Calling this thing Ponza is like saying any midrange GR deck is Ponza. That's probably why the question gets asked so much. Land Destruction is what made Ponza be seen as Ponza. Since this doesn't have that, why even call it Ponza, ya feel?


zytz

May as well call Jund ponza then


Whack_and_sack

Gotta disagree with this take people have about pillage. Notice the only lists actually performing well run pillage. The only deck pillage is actual bad against is murktide currently. Blood moon without pillage backup is not great rn.


jayemmreddit

I just want to note for anybody not paying attention that notably crazybaloth's version of grixis food turns did not contain copies of ledger shredder. I note that because the inclusion of shredder was widely considered to be what made the deck viable and brought it a lot of attention.


Diskappear

that 8 rack deck running only 2 racks and 2 shrieking is wild to me


Bunyio

Technically with 4 sagas is a 8 rack deck lol


Blueburnsred

Love to see the UB Shadow list floating around. I've had so much fun with that deck.


Kevftw

I have no luck with it :[ Feels like so much removal around that it's difficult to protect your threat at if it dies, you've very threat light numbers wise so you can end up in a lot of trouble


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [Serra Paragon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/e/ce295f1e-fb31-4275-a5d3-8c6f29afff40.jpg?1663047478) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Serra%20Paragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/32/serra-paragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce295f1e-fb31-4275-a5d3-8c6f29afff40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sun Titan](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/3/332280f7-03af-4ef8-b1ff-5ac5e4d3b3ce.jpg?1650408110) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sun%20Titan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/210/sun-titan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/332280f7-03af-4ef8-b1ff-5ac5e4d3b3ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Teferi, Time Raveler](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/c/5cb76266-ae50-4bbc-8f96-d98f309b02d3.jpg?1650599808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%2C%20Time%20Raveler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/221/teferi-time-raveler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cb76266-ae50-4bbc-8f96-d98f309b02d3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Eladamri's Call](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/a/ea751fe2-b64a-4265-8885-a9016b29b5b3.jpg?1562202300) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eladamri%27s%20Call) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/197/eladamris-call?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea751fe2-b64a-4265-8885-a9016b29b5b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fury](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/d/bd281158-8180-40b9-a5b7-03cfc712d81a.jpg?1626096626) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/126/fury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd281158-8180-40b9-a5b7-03cfc712d81a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vizier of Remedies](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/6/36ab760e-93e0-4dbc-aaa1-02316f62ed3f.jpg?1543674853) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vizier%20of%20Remedies) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/38/vizier-of-remedies?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/36ab760e-93e0-4dbc-aaa1-02316f62ed3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Solitude](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/7/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153.jpg?1626094105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Solitude) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/32/solitude?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Squee, Dubious Monarch](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/c/3cd907ed-9c68-4bd6-af92-6244909fdf8b.jpg?1663049901) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Squee%2C%20Dubious%20Monarch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/146/squee-dubious-monarch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3cd907ed-9c68-4bd6-af92-6244909fdf8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Goblin Rabblemaster](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/c/bce84a87-093a-42de-9696-8c3250e0f33b.jpg?1592764823) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Rabblemaster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddt/46/goblin-rabblemaster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bce84a87-093a-42de-9696-8c3250e0f33b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dead // Gone](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Dead%20%2F%2F%20Gone&type=card&options=rotate90&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dead%20//%20Gone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/161/dead-gone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45b090c7-f1ba-4656-8b51-915fc1876922?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Unlicensed Hearse](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/3/93ee60f7-31dd-4bc6-b71f-57a1a0d19d20.jpg?1660721494) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unlicensed%20Hearse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/246/unlicensed-hearse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93ee60f7-31dd-4bc6-b71f-57a1a0d19d20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fable of the Mirror-Breaker](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/4/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc.jpg?1656453233)/[Reflection of Kiki-Jiki](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/back/2/4/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc.jpg?1656453233) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fable%20of%20the%20mirror-breaker%20//%20reflection%20of%20kiki-jiki) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/141/fable-of-the-mirror-breaker-reflection-of-kiki-jiki?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The Rack](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/9/696d1e25-5c25-4522-b085-90d49fe23a18.jpg?1562777875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Rack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/113/the-rack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/696d1e25-5c25-4522-b085-90d49fe23a18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Urza’s Saga](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/1/c1e0f201-42cb-46a1-901a-65bb4fc18f6c.jpg?1626099958) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%27s%20Saga) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/259/urzas-saga?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1e0f201-42cb-46a1-901a-65bb4fc18f6c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Drown in the Loch](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/b/eb7b9762-740b-4c1c-a411-20dbf023aea5.jpg?1654118171) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drown%20in%20the%20Loch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/842/drown-in-the-loch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb7b9762-740b-4c1c-a411-20dbf023aea5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Raven's Crime](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/2/7271436b-897a-4b24-a5d2-d29dbea8c1bf.jpg?1561967380) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raven%27s%20Crime) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mma/95/ravens-crime?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7271436b-897a-4b24-a5d2-d29dbea8c1bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Smallpox](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/2/c28db9a4-6696-460b-a9d3-98f4a31abe75.jpg?1636283762) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smallpox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/139/smallpox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c28db9a4-6696-460b-a9d3-98f4a31abe75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Funeral Charm](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/f/6fc44e66-7ff8-4fcd-9f98-e53707590d67.jpg?1562778053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Funeral%20Charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/44/funeral-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6fc44e66-7ff8-4fcd-9f98-e53707590d67?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Desperate Ritual](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/8/3825b85d-07df-43b9-a8d8-930863262d83.jpg?1547517210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Desperate%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/127/desperate-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3825b85d-07df-43b9-a8d8-930863262d83?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Karn’s Sylex](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/7/673a8676-0a93-4ca3-a786-63f138027e8a.jpg?1663051775) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karn%27s%20Sylex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/234/karns-sylex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/673a8676-0a93-4ca3-a786-63f138027e8a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


magna481

BG cat oven is just the olg BG Asmo/Hells Kitchen deck. It never ran mayhem devil.


boozenerd

Yeah, that's just a standard Hell's Kitchen list with the addition of Grist and missing FTK.


Gatsbyyy

Containment priest is super cool, I’m gonna have to try that out


AtrociKitty

>GR Prowess (Jegantha) N: fivebrane This is R Prowess, no G.


ben_fenlon

Lantern 😎


meman666

Does serra paragon work as intended or as according to the actual rules on mtgo?


fancypantspenguin

I absolutely love that UR Opus list, but no blood moon in the 75 seems crazy!!


TheL0stK1ng

I cant get over how spicy that jund list is. Can't wait to try it out


awon11

Mill is back on the menu boiz!


MetalcoreIsntMetal

Sodeq keeping the dredge dream alive ✊