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testicular-manslghtr

I used to think we’d be better off banning some MH2 cards. Now I’m not so sure. I think that for some long-time modern players, and especially players returning to modern since MH2 was rereleased, the format, meta game, and even play style feels very different. I came back to modern in the fall of 2021, and it was a massive adjustment for me to get used to opponents interacting with me with pitch elementals (and the MH1 force cards) while totally tapped out. An opponent being tapped out used to be a signal that an opening for certain kinds of plays was available — now that’s not the case. Sure, we had (and still have) some of the phyrexian instants,but nothing like the pitch elementals, force of vigor, etc. Learning to play around Fury, solitude, etc. has been quite an adjustment. On another note, some of the new decks and play patterns are just annoying. Turn 1 Ragavan has nearly run away with many games against me, especially if the opponent is able to counterspell, bolt, or unholy heat my next few plays until I’m basically top decking. The wrenn-boseiju loop (I play a lot of scales and affinity) and the wren-omnath synergy are similarly annoying in that they can each single-handedly change the whole course of a game. All that said, I’m not super concerned about bans. I only play paper, but I haven’t lost a single game against murktide in ages. I haven’t played against 4c in a while, but after learning to play against it, the matchup started to feel much better. I usually get hosed by Amulet, but that hardly relies on MH cards before sideboarding. Point being, as annoying as monkey, wrenn, the elementals, etc., are for *me*, I’m sure that out of nowhere lethal off of ravager and inkmoth nexus is annoying to my opponents. One murktide player complains that I play scales because his deck is “tuned against the meta, not outdated decks” 🤷‍♀️. I think many of us have a tendency to get a bit salty when certain matchups feel unwinnanble, since it makes the game feel more like rock-paper scissors and up to the luck of the pairing system.


jelkwaz

"Tuned against the meta, not outdated decks" lmao. When I played modern several years ago I played Knightfall, and I got that same sentiment alot. Just reeks of poor sportsmanship.


StealHorse_DoA

While it's easy to adjucate this to their pets deck being run over, or people being biased or whatever, the main reason I think comes down to lack of diversity in the meta. However, reading responses I see a couple of common patterns: \- People DESPISE pile decks. I can't quite tell why this archetype gets so much hate in this sub (its mostly a fair deck), but I suspect "my wallet on display" decks tend to be hated all the time, and the deck does homogenize midragne decks similarly to how splinter twin did the same thing back in the day to control decks. \-Ragavan. I mean, yeah, I can't really argue with that one. \-Yorion is similar to Lurrus as how it forces a certain amount of decks to use it or to lose out on a very very strong piece (unlike, say, Jegantha or Kaheera). \-UR is too dominant. If you look at the numbers, it's hard to argue against this. It also wraps the metagame aroundit a bit to well (4c is one of the few decks that is well positioned against it and the rest of the meta, which is why it's also fairly dominant). \-EI is a common thread in these decks and in general might be to efficient as a card selection engine. \-Pitch elementals do change the way Modern is played to some extent. The exception is Endurance here, where I feel its somewhat agreed on that it's a good design (I said "somewhat", you can never have all modern players agree on anything other than hogaak being too good). \-W&6 eating x/1's is the main reason why I feel a lot of people want it to get banned, much like Chainwhirler it just puts a lot of preassure on a very specific subset of people. And people love playing thalia, let me tell you that. But the main reason is a lack of diversity. While Modern will always have a best deck, it feels the best two decks (murktide and 4c) eat a lot of the meta and are fairly hard to fight back against. There are a lot of playable decks mind you, and I think the gameplay of modern is really really good for what its worth, but at mtggoldfish (imperfect stats i know), murktide has a 15% meta dominance very consistenly. That has lead to bands before, and I don't see the deck getting weaker any time soon. That said, I don't see an immediate needfor a ban. But if a ban happens, I feel we'll remember it more in the vein of Uro rather than Twin. Also, some people want to unban zenith, wtf? do you know how good that card would be with omnath??


chacun-des-pas

I think most peoples issue with the pile decks, aside from fairly asinine comments like "yorion is too strong, ban yorion" is that the 4C soup decks don't have a clear way to punish them for having an incredibly greedy manabase. In fact, the soup decks are often the ones doing the mana base punishing vs tron/scapeshift/amulet etc. It reeks of having their cake and eating it too. Two years ago, WOTC banned Arcum's astrolabe in modern, citing: "While there's nothing intrinsically bad about multicolor “good stuff” decks having a place in the metagame, their power and flexibility is usually counterbalanced by making concessions in their mana bases, often through lands that enter the battlefield tapped, cost life, or involve some other deckbuilding restriction. Arcum's Astrolabe makes this tradeoff come at too low of a cost, as one Arcum's Astrolabe can often mean excellent mana for the rest of the game, without costing a card. In addition, Arcum's Astrolabe leads to other synergy by virtue of being a cheap artifact permanent, and it can be blinked or recurred for card advantage. In short, Arcum's Astrolabe adds too much to these decks for too little cost, resulting in win rates that are unhealthy and unsustainable for the metagame. Therefore, Arcum's Astrolabe is banned in Modern." This is literally exactly what the pile deck is doing with Abundant Growth. Sure, astrolabe had other issues, but Growth does a good impersonation of it. When I play a 4C Uro pile in legacy, I'm basically at risk for getting wastelanded/blood mooned/ back to basic's out of the game for the entire game. Why is this not the case in modern?


Komrad_Qvestion

Because WotC has been power-creeping modern with MH to A: make it a functionally rotating format and B: the new Legacy as Explorer becomes the new modern and the reserved list and the meta dominance of UR pushes more players out of the format. 4-5 color MH piles sell more MH. WotC is on record as believing that LD is "unfun" (fine, but what is letting 4 color decks curve out perfectly every game) which I suspect really should be translated to "if we bring Wasteland or BtB to Modern, it will drive down demand for MH pile decks." They'd also have to ban a MH card (W&S) to introduce Wasteland to the format.


Owl_on_Caffeine

As a mill player, frick Endurance. Stupid answer that every green deck runs.


NIV89

Some possible reasons: - The deck has too large a meta share in where they normally play. - A card in the deck could be too expensive and they would rather see it banned than pay for it. - Their deck is not tier 1 and loses way too often to the ubiquitous deck like 4c/5c or murktide or other. - They secretly like a rotating meta.


demonardvark

>They secretly like a rotating meta. lol they secretly look forward to modern horizons 3


Thief_of_Sanity

Which is the Lord of the Rings set next summer. It's MH3 in all but name I guess.


RyanHenno98

I think it’ll be slightly powered down. Think it’ll mainly be modern playable just so the cards have a home outside of Legacy and Commander. WOTC won’t want Gandalf to be the face of a premier competitive format, but I’m sure there will be some playable cards.


Thief_of_Sanity

Yeah I hope Modern doesn't completely become Horizons Block constructed.


fireslinger4

Are we not there already?


Thief_of_Sanity

I mean... Yeah but what if it was more this way.


Sinfultitan_001

Well, I got some bad news for you there bud...


Istrolid

I don’t want even more broken cards, I want answers to the broken cards


Better_Efficiency391

We have the answers to the broken cards. The pitch elementals and forces ARE the answers to the broken cards. There will just always be a group of people who don't enjoy the playstyle or metagame of the format. Thats all it comes down to. And thats okay.


thephotoman

> secretly There are sickos of every stripe out there. I don't know any of them myself. I mostly hang out with Legacy players these days.


Hot_Share3660

I look forward to it openly, MH2 was an awesome set for both commander and modern


MrBrainstorm

It was an awful set... for my wallet :(


StubbornHappiness

Modern was supposed to be an eternal format where you could play standard favourites for a very long time. There's a large number of players who aren't particularly in Standard MK2 at double to triple the cost.


jbrumbaugh06

That's probably why Pioneer was introduced


lawofshiny

Give it about 5 or 6 more years and they’ll start fussin with pioneer too, and then we’ll get ANOTHER eternal format that starts post WoTS


SandersDelendaEst

Same. Some of the best design Wizards has done in a set.


LordMajicus

My two reasons: - It is not ok when a deck achieves 20% of the meta after multiple months of being at the top of the format. That is a sign that the deck is too dominant and cannot be reigned in properly. Murktide is basically using the same unchecked engine that it is in Legacy and it's dominating both formats to an unhealthy degree. - When the 4 color decks are maindecking Moon effects, the mana is too good. Running multiple colors is supposed to come at a cost, *especially* when you are running 3-5 colors. Between Abundant Growth's fixing and W&6 being able to guarantee perfect mana for the entire game, there is no actual cost to playing 4 colors anymore.


Itsoppositeday91

You know IE is powerful when its slotted into all UR decks in legacy too


stormie_sarge

I would like to add some of us also want to see less homoginization across the format and more cards that are considered competitive. Right now there is many cards in the format that single handedly negate entire archtypes. Wrenn n six, urzas saga, mh2 busted stuff mostly.


Journeyman351

This has never existed in the entirety of Modern's existence.


Saucerous

My primary issue is specifically wrenn, and solitude. Swords to plowshares with a body makes it very hard for go tall strats to exist especially with how common solitude is in the format, and wrenn offers an unparalleled flexibility that allows a 4c deck to exist (the last time that happened, deathrite shaman (the one mana walker) got hit with a ban.). Thats where my issue lay is that wrenn provides a walker body thats very hard to beat and can angle to so many powerful moves like board clearing and recycling boseiju to effectively stripmine decks out of functioning. I think too many people get overhyped about cards unfairly and thinking they need to be banned, but in my mind I exclusively think wrenn and six is the enabler for degenerate stuff like letting a 4 color deck actively play blood moon effects and its extremely parasitic.


levetzki

When did go tall strategies exist in modern? I have been playing modern since I got back into modern and my store started hosting events in like 2013/14 and I don't recall ever really having a go tall strategy. It's always been agro, control, midrange, combo, big mana with big mana outperforming anything that would like to go tall. I am also not very familiar with what a go tall deck consists of. Not very familiar with the term. I feel like it would be something that wants to play big creatures and threats and ramp? Genuinely curious. I agree with with what you are saying about wrenn. The card looks and feels like one of those cards that shouldn't have been printed but we are living and dealing with it because it was and not because it's a fair card.


WarwornDisciple

G-tron player here. Pretty sure my archetype sums up "go tall" strats pretty well so maybe that helps you a bit.


Saucerous

Go wide and go tall are two sides of threat creation. Decks like creativity fall under the legacy esque style of cheating in large creatures, but when I say go tall I generally refer to decks like tron, murktide, and other decks where they provide a large bodied creature.


Jasmine1742

"go tall Strats struggle to exist, like murktide" are you serious? It's literally the most played deck.


vix-

Hammer time.... scales..... murketide.... deathshadow.... go tall is pretty big in modern lmaoo


levetzki

Oh I see. Historically modern prefers going for big mana with Tron and titan than going straight "going tall" since the lands provide so much for the decks. Modern did have through the breach decks which did get killed off by solitude. They never were tier 1 but those don't see play anymore so I see your point. (I slightly forgot about them as they fit into other deck styles. Control like blue moon. Or combo like the old gristolbrand decks)


Diskappear

>wrenn and six is the enabler for degenerate stuff like letting a 4 color deck actively play blood moon effects and its extremely parasitic got that right i really would love to see that thing eat a ban


Swarlolz

Wren and six is fucking annoying.


ragingopinions

I think neither needs a ban as of right now - the Boseiju loops are ineffective against many decks, given they get a replacement land and artifact decks like Affinity or Hammer still exist. The actual colour fixing aspect is very powerful - but I don’t think it actually influences the format in the way Deathrite or Astrolabe did. And for Solitude, what go tall strategies are you seeing pushed out? Amulet Titan or Murktide win via big beaters - I actually think Fury is more toxic as it pushes out small creature decks and is more of a swing vs Solitude. I don’t think either is in need of banning currently.


Nec_Pluribus_Impar

The thing is, if you look at all the top finishes lately in challenges, and look at 5-0 dumps, the meta is diverse, and the winning decks are rotating, so why mess with that? 4c W6 decks are getting dumpstered right now because the meta is ready for them. No reason to ban. Murkitde Regent, Ulamog, Emrakul, Primevil Titan, Archon and Kaldra Compleat are all seeing play pretty heavily so I'm not really sure why you feel go tall doesn't work.


Jodzilla

5-0 dumps are not accurate as it will only show decks with a certain amount of cards different from one another. Also 4C is expensive af to rent so it isn't as popular. The challenges will show the top performing decks but cost to rent is still a factor.


Nec_Pluribus_Impar

All I'm saying is you can't just ban a card because it does something people find toxic when results are showing the deck to be largely kept in check by the meta. And you can speculate the 5-0 dumps not showing everything, and I do agree, but you don't have the full snapshot either, Wizards does. Historically they have acted more or less with meta's best interests in mind, and barring some exceptions (Bridge from Below) I tend to agree with their decisions. They have said nothing is wrong with this meta. They like that there are best cards, and that the meta is keeping itself in check. I agree.


Jodzilla

You are misunderstanding, I do not care if anything gets banned and am not calling for it lol. Bannings should only be used as an absolute last resort. I never claimed to have the snapshot and not really any speculation needed as Wizards has said that's how they release 5-0 dumps.


truckingatwork

What is "expensive AF to rent" exactly in the MTGO ticket world?


Jodzilla

You can rent decks from a website for real money.


Saucerous

The issue is not that its a ultra common deck, is the fact is that the pure existence of the deck feels like a spit in the face of players because its a really tedious matchup with one side having insane flexibility to fight literal anything. The problem is the deck feels a lot like the tedious matchup of miracles with top. Its a really slow matchup that feels less like trading blow for blow and more like youre being dropped in wet concrete. Theres not much that is blatantly good against it either with decks like murktide or amulet titan or yawgmoth and that just adds to the list of reasons why I think that wrenn and six needs to see a ban, because a deck like this will eat all the enjoyment out of a meta really fast. I have yet to hear people sing odes of loving this deck like literally any other, and have multiple times heard people practically tout it as the tournament grinders deck. I think that ties into the lack of play its seen in a week or two is that its really boring to play as a deck.


Jasmine1742

4 color is mostly only good right now because it beats the shit out of murktide while still preserving the midrange rule of "lots of 50/50 matchups" The deck does struggle against go big decks and combo though. Tron isn't great, a good titan player tends to stomp it, Yawgmoth is slightly unfavored depending on the removal suite the deck went with. It's a good deck with weaknesses but bad players who don't know when they're dead get frustrated by it's competitiveness cause it's not killing them turn 3 like hammer does.


ragingopinions

What? The deck absolutely has bad or questionable match ups - Titan is is a bad matchup, as is Burn, Creativity is also not a walk in the park. Also the spit in the face of players is really a personal view - I and many others do actually enjoy the deck and while I can see why it is unfun to play against I don’t think that’s a reason to ban.


jbrumbaugh06

I don't think W&6 is the problem. The problem to me is Abundant Growth, because for a 1 G mana cantrip you basically become immune to Blood Moon and other typical answers to highly greedy 4c/5c decks while getting a blinkable permanent for card draw. The card is eerily similar to Arcum's Astrolabe, banned for exactly the same reasons.


finfan96

The last one is not called out enough. A lot of people really just like to see a shakeup every once in awhile


SENDMEYOURFEELS

Right, the history of frequent bannings has conditioned the playerbase to expect a volatile metagame.


PatJamma

Yorrion piles running Omnath and Wrenn & 6 aren't effected negatively by Blood Moon in a meaningful way, in fact, they often run it themselves. That's a clear indication of a problem that needs to be addressed, as precedented by the Astrolabe banning.


youarelookingatthis

An argument I have seen is that many of these cards make playing 4 or 5 color piles way too easy, that playing in all five colors (or four) needs a drawback that cards like Ragavan, the land recursion of W6, and the mana presence of Omnath negate. Yorion specifically has calls for a ban because it's drawback of having 20 extra cards is not a drawback in the decks that run it, so you're just getting an extra card in hand for "free".


Jasmine1742

Yorion has a drawback, people just don't understand what the drawback is. Yorion, outside MAYBE standard, has never had a consistency issue drawback. What is suffers from is the ability to pivot against other matchups post sideboard. 20% more cards from your deck isn't really a big issue that people think it is but when you go to sb and are siginifigantly less likely to see those sb cards... well that's the TRUE issue.


Titansjester

The problem is that people remember every game they lost where 4 color draws their 2 of sideboard card but don't remember all the times they won because 4 color didn't find hate.


maplemagiciangirl

I play spirits there isn't a specialized hate piece they can run that doesn't fuck them more, my issue with yorion is it's just a boring deck and an oppressive deck in the meta


pokepat460

Ragavan isn't good in 4c decks anyway, he isn't the problem at all.


youarelookingatthis

True, I honestly don't think the monkey should be banned. It's answerable by anything and is not as bad as people make it out to be.


Suavidades253

Ragavan is perfectly fine. Yes it snowballs massively and wins you a few games with a couple of hits but it's usually just a lightning rod for opponents removal. Now i am massively biased because i have been playing murktide lately and having the time of my life so take my words with a grain of salt


youarelookingatthis

I hear murktide talked about a lot in regards to bans, in your opinion is there anything bannable in that deck?


Suavidades253

Iteration is pretty broken. If something would be banned from the deck I'd say EI. But please don't my favourite Magic card ATM lmao


FilledWithGravel

You can't say it's fine and then proceed to say this 1 drop wins you games on its own, maybe the card shouldn't be banned but it and similar card design philosophies are a mistake, and Ragavan should never have been printed like he is


Titansjester

Ragavan helped solve the "2 ships passing in the night" meta that was pervasive ever since twin was banned. Ragavan gives interactive decks a way to punish linear decks for not having interaction.


Sunomel

This is the only argument I can kind of accept, though I would prefer to see something like [[price of progress]] printed into the format as an answer to 4c piles rather than a ban


ragingopinions

I think Price just makes Burn or R/x decks better against everyone vs hating on 4 colours. Everyone plays nonbasics so Price punishes everyone + unlike in Legacy, duals deal damage so it would be extremely powerful. Back to Basics I could see - or some form of Domain hate. Punishing people for playing more colours vs nonbasics.


[deleted]

I'm okay with burn doing that =)


pokepat460

4color already uses more basic lands than not due to ice fang coatl. Price of progress would make 4color stronger.


DelMar1789

I think that's a hot take. Also, I don't know if PoP would be a mainboard option in modern or not.


pokepat460

4color already plays blood moon and abundant growth, it would usually take maybe 4 damage from a price of progress. It definitely wouldn't be strong against blood moon decks, I really don't think that's a hot take.


youarelookingatthis

Yeah, it's a problem without an easy solution, especially when not all players think it's a problem. With Omnath specifically I don't like the card as you're getting really powerful benefits from playing lands, and seems too good for what it costs.


Rowannn

Yorion is causing logistical problems in paper tournaments and causing more than twice as many draws as there would be normally. At one of my recent PTQs a yorion mirror in the untimed top 8 was 2-0 and took TWO AND A HALF HOURS. If it was 3 games the tournament would have finished past 1am


lemon-key-face

at a recent RCQ I went to the one pilot finished 3-0-3. lol.


hierarch17

“How’d the tournament go” “Didn’t lose a match!” “You qualified??” “Well…”


Lord_Grumbo

That's why live magic needs a play timer like chess.


netsrak

Even if it isn't your turn, you have to pass priority around 8 times. Obviously it gets worse if they do anything. That sounds fucking miserable and unrealistic to me.


SteakAlfredo

So make it that if you need a moment to think you hit your buzzer to pause their clock and start your own. That way you can "take priority" if needed but otherwise we assume players are ok with the play.


netsrak

Isn't that adding something arbitrary to something that is specifically created to avoid that? What counts as thinking long enough? Another good question is: whose clock is ticking down when someone is shuffling? Obviously a lot of the time you can do it during their action, but what if I can't do that because I'm going to draw a card afterwards. I think people look at MTGO and assume that it would be easy. I'd rather avoid something that would be extremely difficult to keep consistent. Ideally the people slow playing would just draw out of events but that doesn't always happen.


Nubsondubs

It wouldn't work. You'd have to hit the timer every time you passed priority, not just at the end of your turn like in chess.


m00tz

This sounds like a failure on the part of the judges to enforce a reasonable pace of play. 4c doesn’t have THAT many decisions to make on a turn by turn basis. It’s not like Eggs where the act of combining involved taking 25-30 game actions per turn. 1 hour 15 mins per match is ridiculous. I’m inclined to blame the players in the match more than the card Yorion.


Shhadowcaster

80 card deck + fetches can increase shuffling/searching time and difficulty by quite a bit. Especially if the deck is properly double sleeved. Throw in the fact that they are control/midrange piles and you have a recipe for slower play where there isn't necessarily anyone at fault.


caucasian88

Probably sick of power creep and the fact that modern is now a rotating format.


KvToXic

Also Doom made a good point on his stream that I agree with a little in that the gameplay a lot of times is just not fun for one player.


McWinSauce

Dooms brand is complaining about any 2 for 1.


TheWagonBaron

I played Modern last night and in 3 rounds of play I was comboed out on by two different decks. It was great fun watching my opponent's play solitaire until they got their win-con. Great fun.


headshotcatcher

Yet there is less combo in the meta than a few years ago


jvalex18

Losing is never fun.


Double-Comfortable-7

Soft disagree, some of my most fun games have been close but a loss.


jvalex18

Sure. I meant in general. It's usually not fun.


[deleted]

There's losing because I made a mistake, losing because of bad luck, losing because of bad deck building on my part. All are okay. Losing because I am not running the same hyper tuned meta deck as my opponent feels bad.


Francopensal

Yeah, i think i fit in that mentallity


truckingatwork

Modern is a rotating format?


SybilCut

Not in the technical sense, but with the power levels of stuff that are coming into modern, practically no deck hasn't been warped by the drops of the last few years and "boomer jund" strategies are outclassed. That's what's to be understood about modern being a "rotating" format: power creeping old decks into unviability.


truckingatwork

yeah that totally makes sense. Unrelated question, why is it called "boomer jund" lol


SybilCut

It's the deck for people who are living in the past at this point. People were using it and swearing by it for years, no matter what happened you had a steady stream of cards coming in and a good effective strategy. But today it's just outclassed, and going inquisition into liliana into goyf just isn't the curve it used to be. So now it's just the deck that *used* to be the best and most well rounded, and anybody still playing it is the magic equivalent of an old man, playing an outdated deck from a decade ago.


FilledWithGravel

It's still fun to play, at least


caucasian88

In the sense that your deck that was functional for years can no longer stand a chace vs newer decks. Modern used to have pretty decent and varied set of meta decks with 1 or 2 new breakout decks a year. Now everytime a new set comes out a new t1 or t0 deck pops up. Modern horizons 2 flipped the meta on its head, before that was mh1 with hoogak/altar of dimensia/ urza/ yawgmoth etc. Capena added ledger shredder. Ikoria had a mechaic so busted they had to errata it ( companion). Eldraine had oko and OUAT. Theros had Uro and underworld breach. WAR had the most busted set of planeswalkers like Karn and 3feri. This is just what I can remember off the top of my head, but each of these sets lead to major meta shifts. In that sense, modern is a rotating format.


FilledWithGravel

I'd argue cards like Ledger Shredder are what we want- one card from a set that is good for modern. The card itself is good, but it's not too good, and it came through standard and if we got things at that pace, one or two good cards a set, that'd still be fast, but not bad. The problem is whole sets of format warping cards, like MH1/MH2, or absolutely bonkers cards like Oko


Swarlolz

Hogak is top 20 of horrible cards in a format I’ve seen. I started playing in 1999.


ItaloDubarrini

In MH1 there were also W&6, Force Of Negation, Coatl, Astrolabe, Force of Vigor, Charm (I always knew it was a good card, I bought them for 1$ each) and the first attempt by Wizards to kill small creature decks: Plague Engineer. In Strixhaven there was Expressive Iteration. Theros gave us Heliod combo. A 6 months rotating formats with expensive changes. I quit.


Ungestuem

And to stop the rotation, we ban something... Ahh that makes sense..


kmoneyrecords

I love how when MH2 came out everyone claimed that it’s a “rotating format” and now the sets been out for well over a whole year, no major updates to modern have happened, and people are still saying it’s a “rotating format” with no reflection at all. And then the other half call it a “stagnant format”. Magic players, man.


caucasian88

I mean people were saying it was a rotating format long before mh2. The FIRE design is what really kicked it off. It helps that they've definitely toned down standard set power levels from a few years ago.


NiceBasket9980

Nice job half representing the arguements of two groups of players. To pretend that modern didn't rotate when mh2 came out is rediculous. The complaints from these players is many people had entire collections and thousands of dollars of cards become unplayable. That is a legit reason to complain and this phenomena won't stop as each mh set is going to add new cards.


Wads_Worthless

So their plan to fix a rotating format is more bans? Lol


caucasian88

I mean, WOTC certainly set that precedent. Going back to kaladesh they messed up standard so bad they issued more bans in 2 years than they did in the history of standard. For modern the banlist has nearly doubled in the past few years, while older cards can safely come off because the power creep has rendered some cards obsolete (jtms, bloodbriad). The correct answer would be to curb the ever-growing addition of insanely powerful cards, but Hasbro wont ever allow that to happen.


Remarkable-Ad3492

The most common argument I've heard is that there is only a few decks that exist within the winner's metagame e.g. those decks that are best positioned to win tournaments. To break the two obvious ones down: 1. Murktide is repetitive and pushes out most aggro and combo decks because of efficient removal/counters. 2. 4c money pile is simply the best midrange deck so it simply plays the best cards to out grind most decks. Normally the linear aggro/combo decks could go under it, but they're locked out by murktide. Not sure how accurate this is since I'm pretty out of tune with modern currently, but it seems to be the most common. TLDR: People don't like the rock paper scissors meta game of murktide beats linear, linear beats 4c, 4c beats murktide.


Itsoppositeday91

Ask yourself this: of the top 5 decks you think are diverse how many cards are from MH2 and MH1 block? I think you found the answer as to why people are calling for bans. Between the last 3/4 yrs of crazy standard and MH sets. Modern looks closer to Legacy than what it was intended. Some people might say go play Pioneer then but eventually the same issues will occur.


Phyrexian-Drip

I’ve been playing premodern, can’t happen there lol. Pioneer might be okay if they keep it to sets that have rotated through standard, but I wouldn’t trust wotc. But as it stands, it is the shinning light of competitive magic that is maintained by wotc, even if I’m not excited by the card pool in pioneer.


Itsoppositeday91

They promised to never print direct to modern and here we are. Eventually pioneer will get printed sets. Wotc knows standard is dead and now they're making new rotating formats. Honestly direct print sets wouldn't be bad if the wholesets powerlevel wasnt so high but cards like prismatic ending have warped even legacy


Phyrexian-Drip

Well said. But I do recommend premodern. Format isn’t too expensive either.


tiger_eyeroll

For along time I was oknwith pitch spell, I just accepted it as part of the game. But the last couple weeks, I've been playing hammer and getting blown out when my opponent is tapped out! I dunno, it just feels like having mana to play spells is such a core mechanic of the game. And to have that basically thrown out the window just doesn't feel right.


FilledWithGravel

Yeah, it makes Modern lose the clear identity from Legacy, which is a shame


Mr_Bubblrz

I'll give it to you on force of vigor for sure, the rest of the pitch spells at least create card disadvantage. But FoV and Fury are both iffy. At least Fury is a "sorcery" so it's not a surprise.


boltTheBird87

Money? Idk I really enjoy the format. MH2 brought me back to 60 card magic after a long hiatus from competitive play. But the biggest complaint I hear from my friends that have quit the modern format is that they have been priced out.


Mattunderice

"Omnath is too good, haven't really seen any reasoning besides its too good." Omnath is the glue that holds this deck together, as it's a wincon (especially if you run the Emrakul build), a reliable way to pitch all your elementals, a mana fixer, a MD source of lifegain against aggro decks, and draws you a card. Fuck this stupid card.


dethglitter

I think 4c omnath should go. Omnath is to cheap (manawise)for what it does, also 4c moneypile decks also just take to long to play an okay turn. But on the flipside i love the modern metagame, as a person who migrated from yugioh to mtg having 5+ decks in a metagame is super fun and while you can assume what deck someone is playing you can also just get hit by something out of left field. As oppose tobin yugioh where you have THE best deck and the 2 decks that dont auto-lose to it. Also to all you people complaining that ragavan is to good just chill its a great card but what it does is punish non interactive deck building which is good


Phyrexian-Drip

Ban precedents set by wotc not being consistently enforced, especially when it comes to products with limited print runs and FIRE design chase mythics. Additionally, the format has become too stale being super ubiquitous and homogeneous. Murktide has been +20% of the online meta in both t32 and t8 for the last two-months now. Only time I remember anything else happening like this was hogaak summer or eldrazi winter. Although, I don’t think murktide is that egregious. Also the whole murktide win rate argument is complete nonsense. I’ve been trending murktide for the past month now (haven’t trended it this week due to being busy), but the deck has a good conversion rate when comparing t8 and t32 placings or the x-2 metric that is now being posted in the challenges.


levetzki

Murktide runs into the jund/the midrange issue of wondering what to ban if you want to ban something. A single ban may have little impact on the deck since it's a pile of good cards. Also do you really want to kill a fair and interactive deck? (Heck people complained endlessly how modern was a none interactive ship sailing by each other format when the best deck in the format was jund)


Jasmine1742

Nah, if Murktide needs a ban its very clearly either murktide or expressive iteration (my opinion is iteration is fucking broken). ​ I dunno if I really want bans per se but after playing expressive iteration in modern, pioneer, and legacy... I really wouldn't mind if that card goes.


Phyrexian-Drip

I’m of the opinion murktide is fine in modern due to the cantrips being much worse, therefore in theory it is harder to fuel the gy. A big part of murktide being so egregious in legacy is that it pitches to FoW. Additionally, the tempo threats in modern are worse. For me the egregious card is EI and ragavan. https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/wmt04p/would_modern_be_better_or_worse_without_ragavan/ik190qt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 This comment explains my reasoning on ragavan perfectly.


netsrak

I'm pretty sure the problem in Legacy is that the answers line up very poorly against it. I'm pretty sure the only things that are regularly played that kill it are Swords to Plowshares and REB/Pyroblast. Now Delver has a cheap threat that doesn't die to Bolt or Abrupt Decay.


Phyrexian-Drip

I don’t think the problems with murktide in legacy are mutually exclusive, but rather additive. I’m sure we could sit here all day and think of reasons why murktide is a problem in legacy. But you do bring up a great point that demonstrates how murktide can be seen as a problem in both modern and legacy. My rebuttal to that is the same though, and that is murktide comes down on average quicker in legacy than modern, is supported by better threats, pitches to the best interaction in the format, and supported by better card filtering. All of those legacy specific issues is why I think murktide is fine in modern and thus think the bigger issue to modern is EI and ragavan.


Phyrexian-Drip

Yes, I don’t care what type of deck it is anything over 20% meta share is fair game. I do think you’re correct though that one ban may not be effective. The ragavan ban alone wasn’t enough subside the delver menace in legacy.


theclownschapter

If you spend more time grinding than on your job: shit gets old. ban something make it wildwildwest for a short time if you spend little time playing: stuff too OP. ban something before you have to overthink your deck choice


Zelek_Bro

Modern is a financial investment. Plain and simple. I invest money into my deck and collection so that I can have fun and do my jank or be competitive. To each their own. The general consensus I see is that the MH cards both 1 & 2 negated a large portion of peoples collections and made them ‘unplayable’. Obviously that is unfortunate as peoples investment didn’t pay out. The money they spent is no longer proportional to the fun they are having. Some people play their favorite cards anyway of course but everyone wants to dream they can take down a PT and win money 🤷‍♂️


GibsonJunkie

welcome to magic discourse on the internet


MindRunes

you can’t ban enough cards to return modern to what it was, I think they should just unban everything. Who cares.


maniospas

I agree with all of these, especially the difficulty of innovating, sans Omnath being generically good (imo, people misunderstand Wrenn's consistency for Omnath's), Yorion (dunno what the prime offender is there, but probably not a 5-mana play) and Solitude killing big creatures (big creatures were never a thing in modern and for the only big creature where this matters -Titan- it compensates with a busted ETB). I also don't particularly mind iteration, but that's just me.


ironmaiden667

Just speaking personally, I really want to see wrenn banned. The 4c money pile deck is arguably the best or one of the best in the format. And that's fine but it really lacks any obvious weaknesses to attack it. Wrenn allows the deck to have a mana base so good that it can even run blood moon or magus in the sideboard. That doesn't seem great to me and I'm sure the deck will still be good even without wrenn so it seems pretty reasonable to me.


belovedhorrifier

I'm definitely enjoying modern for what it is, although I would appreciate some changes. Years ago though I told myself, now this is just my opinion, if a 4/5 color deck doesn't care about Blood Moon, there's a problem. I still hold this opinion.


ironmaiden667

Historically in magic, playing that many colors comes with a downside. But here it really doesn't. In legacy you even have Wasteland but there's nothing that good in modern.


joshhupp

I think the answer is in your comment "the 4c money pile deck." Magic overall has had too much power creep imo and it's gotten way too easy to play 4 color decks that work. I bet if a better 5c Omnath came out it would still be a tier 1 playable deck. If Omnath was banned, would that deck still play 4 colors? Also the elementals can just go! Free spells and free mana is always a problem.


ragingopinions

I completely disagree that it lacks weaknesses. The deck is woefully slow - so much so that Amulet Titan and Burn are pretty awful matchups, since you need to tax resources to just survive. Cascade also isn’t a great match up. Also the Magus inclusion is brought up a lot but it’s played because it is worse for Titan than 4c, so it helps the deck there. Playing around Blood Moon is still a thing - people are just mad it doesn’t automatically win them the game against the deck.


PanzerVI

it's like blood mooning tron. you need to actually apply pressure.


Whack_and_sack

Just ban omnath. Wrenn getting banned hurts a lot of fair strategies.


initiatefailure

It's mostly a play experience thing. Like I believe 4C would have a higher playerbase if it wasn't one of the most miserable tournament play experience decks I can remember in a long time. Like the draw bracket is now just called the 4c bracket at every tournament. but generally speaking, there has been a culture change in how people think about bans. I want to say it goes back to the twin ban, which was the first big time in the modern era when something was banned without breaking the format, but because it was too popular and homogenized the UR decks around it. ever since then every best thing has been called to be banned by some corner of the internet, even if it was only best for a week or a month. also my personal take is that Modern \[horizons block constructed\] is less fun than a modern naturally growing out of every standard set, but uh, I think that ship has sailed off to the wotc $$$ factory.


NiceBasket9980

Because the identity of modern completely changed with the mh1 and mh2 sets. Pre-mhs, modern was a format of pet decks with a fluid metagame. What I mean by this is that, while there were top decks of the format the gap between these decks and peoples pet decks was much much smaller than it is now. People used to just choose the deck they liked (with way more options) could play casually over the course of years at fnm level and still spike comp tournies. It was great for the player who enjoyed to social side of magic and didn't view magic as a grind. Seeing what top8d scg opens every weekend was incredibly fun because the meta was so wide open, and everyone was looking to see how their pet deck did. The variety in decks that could spike tournies was much much higher. I want full return to normalcy and just a ban of all of mh1 and mh2 (even though I know it will never happen).


rag2008

I genuinely think that removing W&6 from the format would be a net positive but I also have a very selfish reason for it: >!Banning W&6 would make its price crash on MTGO since it's already banned in Legacy, so I'd be able to pick up a playset for Vintage RUG Walkers and other RUGx decks for very cheap.!<


TheRecovery

*1: it’s because this has been the pattern wizards has cultivated for so long. Wizards has been over aggressive with bans for the past 3 years and very quickly responding to player complaints. Now all of a sudden they’ve suddenly stopped and they’re back to being very judicious. People had warped expectations and it’s not so easy to RE-establish healthy ones. *2: there is a legitimate concern by some that the cards in MH2 represent basically the best things you could be doing in a color for their mana cost. - It’s very hard to find sidegrades to the cards in 4c Omnath. T3feri is the best 3 mana planeswalker since Oko and is arguably as good as Oko (though not as obviously). W6 seems to constantly facilitate issues in the format and is impossible to go under. Mix these two issues and you have constant arguments for bans.


FLORI_DUH

*too* good.


ThePhildozer89

Modern was always a format where you felt secure in having a deck that would withstand the test of time. Injection of all these new cards into the format have warped that perception making decks that were once tier 1 take a backseat to all the new hotness. As a result a lot of people don't like the newer cards very much and would rather they were not in the format. That's what I think at least, I barely play modern anymore because I'd rather not see a MH2 card across the table.


stormsovereign

I just don't understand making bans with the rationale of 'we don't want a turn 3 format' (see splinter twin) and then enabling a turn 3 format' after the fact. I don't recall ever seeing any set making the impact on a format like horizons 2 made on modern in 15+ years of playing MTG.


Deigo_Brando

Fury invalidates all creature tribal decks because it can be a 3 for 2 or a 3 for 1. Not many are clambering for solitude. Wrenn makes mana too consistent for degenerate decks. Murktide is 20% of the meta.


DelMar1789

Magic players are a salty breed. It's not too uncommon for people to point fingers at something they believe is unfair. Meanwhile they would be better off changing strategies or decklists.


tiago_dagostini

But the whole problem is there is very very little space to innovate when a certain set of cards stiffles what you can do. One cannot dream to outvalue am omnath, you cannot afford not have 1 mana response to a Ragavan, you cannot try to attack from a different angle with enchantments or artifacts because wrenn alongside boceju is recurrent bullshit. ​ The meta is balanced because we have it set by a handful of cards, but it is stiffled because those cards are so much above the level of the other possible solutions. On the long run that is not good. Also does not help that most of these are from MH and MH2, editions with LOWER print numbers (and that inflate the prices)


DelMar1789

Don't worry, the Lord of the Rings set will come, and we'll have to complain or pay for Shadowfax displaying the meaning of haste.


Broken_Emphasis

I know it won't happen, but I'd *love* it if Shadowfax was just a french vanilla with the reminder text for haste on it.


DelMar1789

Ok, so really theory crafting here: its a 4 drop w/ haste, when it attacks, put a wizard from your hand tapped and attacking, return wizard to hand at end of combat. Get really freaky with your snapcaster beats.


spekkiomow

>But the whole problem is there is very very little space to innovate Lol don't tell spike.


Ironshield185

Hasn't this always how Modern has been though? Albeit sometimes more severe or less severe. It's a non-rotating format; bans are a short term measure for format health when there's a deadline on the cards that can be used (or for PARTICULARLY EGREGIOUS cases). I think we'll be fine, especially from where we are now. As time goes on, we'll get more tools to deal with this. Think big picture with this example: For a very very long time, no deck could beat the value Jund brought to the table; and now Jung is nearly extinct. Have patience.


FF_FREAK

IMO, it happens when the format does not align to their definition of an ideal format. Let’s say they make a ban Monday for 5 cards, by Friday you will see people still calling for more bans for their selfish reasons, and not for the majority’s enjoyment. Example that comes to mind is when a discussion pops up asking for what card they want banned, someone will say cards like thoughtseize because it ruins their combo, not because it’s a strong card or a format warping card


Hainto14

I think if you want to play 4c/5c you should be able to be punished for having a greedy mana base and w&6 really helps fight that which I think is generally unhealthy for the format in the long term. Cards don't have to be banned solely on power level either. I tend to agree that solitude and W&6 should eat a ban. I also dislike the companion mechanic as a whole, but that's a discussion for another day.


ranmuke

You encounter a line-of-play so often that isnt susceptible to any viable counterplay and it forces you to play those cards mainboard or else that you are giving free wins to said match up. I.E.: Hoogak Summer forcing everyone to have mainboard graveyard hate.


JakeSkellington

I mean.. ragavan turn one can literally end some games lol


Nolemai

Will never be seen but as a small note to your last update: Omnath rewards you VERY heavily for doing what you always do in modern: crack fetches. Every time you play a fetch and crack it you get 4 life and 5 mana (including the land you go for) and that ramps you and stabilises you, leaving the only counter play to Omnath a counterspell. WOTC historically allows multicoloured spells to be stronger than mono coloured, but Omnath specifically rewards fixing, so it is plain and simple too easy to cast. And he replaced himself as well, which is a classic "1 line too many" design. Detaching myself from Omnath the problem with the format is that is used to be the place cool standard cards go after rotation. However, the format has gotten too strong TOO FAST and nothing since 2019 entered the format (disregarding MH2). Modern is no longer a place for interesting synergies, it is DOMINATED by FIRE and MH design of 2019 and MH2 and it wasn't used to be! Modern was where you would play your pet card, but Tarmogoyf is EMBARRASING nowadays. Personally I blame the fact that too many too strong cards entered the format too fast, and it distrupted the format to such a degree where it is no longer "the modern format we used to play" The fewer cards WOTC "Designs" for a format, the better that format is. /soapbox


smiley042894

I want them because I believe the competitive metagame feels a lit less diverse than it once did. In the top 8 of any given tournament I seldom see decks that I would have once classified as tier 2. Every now and again a fringe deck would take down a tourney. Be it later control, merfolk, dredge, or affinity. I feel as though that's a lot less prevalent now with the chase cards of modern horizon being so efficient, the overall viable cardpool for deck building, in my opinion, has severaly dwindled. And thus, viable competitive options have also dwindled.


BePurgedInFlames

Because wrenn is too powerful, the rest are fine. Minimum he either needed his -1 to be a -2, or to start at 2 loyalty. Ragavan is a super good card, but anything can block him easily and he dies to any removal so it's not as bad as when someone plays a wrenn on the play turn 2 so you lose.


khuul1

Ragavan is....weird. Yes everything kills him....but often does not. Example- opponent goes turn 1 ragavan. You go chumpblocker. Opponent removes blocker,attacks and now has his mana back+maybe your card for later. So only way to deal with him is turn 1 removal and while there are plenty of 1 mana removals, it is nit Always optimal to use removal. Sometimes turn 1 aether vial would be perfect for your deck but you are forced to either go vail or give your opponent card+mana. Not a good deal. He is not TOO STRONG but he is unhealthy


thisisjustascreename

>He is not TOO STRONG but he is unhealthy Reminds me of Splinter Twin. Like sure it had a bunch of 55/45 matchups, but the play pattern of constantly leaving up removal or maybe dying was gross.


Vadosi

He can't keep cart for later needs to play it same turn as he damaged you. And while playing your card seems strong if he didn't hit something for 0 mana it means that he is spending resources and is going to give you another window to answer ragavan


JakeSkellington

I think the issue is too, now decks are forced to have 4-6 removal spells just for rag or you can get snowballed


DontBanYorion

I know this is speculative and I can't read the innermost thoughts of posters here, but my guess would be that (1) many players have difficulty admitting they were wrong when vocally calling for bans in March (when 4c did have a period of relative dominance and some challenges where it was arguably overrepresented), and (2) others have been acclimated to WotC's recent tendency of banning very frequently and quickly (from January 2019 to 2021, a total of *fifteen* cards were banned). I think those same players have difficulty adjusting to the new reality that the meta is stable and healthy, and even if there is a *best* deck, that doesn't necessarily warrant a ban if the meta has ways of self-policing.


Fine_Environment6474

The one that stands out to me the most is Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer. I feel like that card should never ever have been printed and needs a ban. I should not feel like I'm going to lose just because they cast a one-drop!


DreadPirateTyler

I disagree. It’s a good card but I never fear for the game if I see one cast on turn 1. We play too many answers in Modern and late game it’s usually a dead card.


BioEradication

Boredom. Lots of the people I see calling for bans play magic for 8+ hours a day or play in multiple weekend events every month. That’s not a normal amount of magic. So they think banning/unbanning will cure their boredom.


jschfr

I think you have a point about boredom, but honestly I think the format could do with some possible unbans vs more bans. Format actually has the power level to support adding some cars back from the banlist. If all else fails you reban it, or a different enabler making it busted


Hexdrinker99

It's the Internet. It's just a river of hot takes and salty people looking to vent.


tiago_dagostini

The issue supporting this line of thinking is not competitive domination, but the state as a whole of the format being too powerful that stifles innovation. Examples: Wren and Six makes 4 color decks irrelevantly easy to make. Wren and Six alongside Boceju gives a main deck reusable ad nauseum response to artifacts and stuff that previously demanded a dedicated one use response ​ Ragavan basically forces every deck to have 4-6 1 mana responses. It is not valid to risk a second turn attack from the enemy. Ragavan forcefully demanding 1 mana responses faces a huge contrast with Murktide that can enter in the 3rd turn as something idiotically large and out of reach of the removals that handle ragavan. ​ Omnath is such an over the top value card that anyone seeking a "value gain route can simply forget to try something different.. nothing can come close ​ These cards narrowed too much on what can be tried. ​ Personally I would ban Wrenn and Six since in one card you unstiffle more things. Ragavan is also not heatlhy for the format, but it it ugly by itself, it does not multiply the uglyness of other cards much.


kmoneyrecords

It’s because modern is Schroedinger’s format; it is somehow now a rotating format but also a stagnant format at the same time - and this ambiguity allows people to whine for changes in either direction that they think will make their pet deck better. Probably means the format is just fine. I think it’s the most challenging and fun modern has ever been.


GuilleJiCan

Because modern is so expensive it is not fun. Hear me out in my reasoning: the large pool of cards in modern ensures we know have a balanced meta, as for the time being, we can adapt to anything available. Or switch decks to attack the meta. This is not a problem in mtgo with rental and all that, but in paper, adapting or switching decks is not as feasible and creates a monetary barrier to be able to have fun. Modern is a great format right now! But i have been playing for decades and have an extensive modern pool so I could build a lot a different deck each week and try the new stuff. Most modern players, on the other hand, have saved for a long time to get their only pet deck, and now they don't get to have fun with it. Would this happen if all cards were cheaper? I dunno. Maybe decks like 4c would show up too much and too uncontested in paper that would warrant a ban. The problem is that a non rotating format requires flexibility in the deck pool, but in a format as expensive as modern, having decks out of the spot means telling a lot of players that cant afford a second deck that they are not allowed to have fun.


BigAssPizzaPocket

I would like to remind you that back in the day, boomer jund was about the same cost as Yorion pile because goyfs were over $100, as were Lilis. Bobs were well over $50, and so on. The rest of the big decks sit around $1k, which isn’t really that much different than what it used to be when control ran snapcasters that were $60 or Karn that was $70


GuilleJiCan

I was already complaining back in the day. But then my option was simply not to play because there was nowhere I could complain.


CluckFlucker

Yes but the format was reletively stable, so if you bought into a deck, you could have faith it would be stable for a decently long amount of time. The splinter twin and pod bans really started to shake peoples faith in the stability of modern in those same times. The twin ban actually pushed many people out due to the cost to convert. We have similar problems now but with artificial rotation and forced MH1 and MH2 block constructed going on. People cant have faith that the deck they saved to play will be valid for any amount of time so the barrier to entry hurts people interested in the format.


Alpacaduck

This. When modern became a FIRE and a rotating format, it lost its original identity as a "safe place to play an eternal format" and "a cheaper, more effective playstyle with a greater upfront cost, but cheaper maintenance than standard." Standard may as well not exist - Mtgtop8 says 300 std tourneys in the last 2 months - Modern is 1800, Pioneer almost 1700. Modern is rotating Standard, "Standard" is Commander, and new sets are implicitly or explicitly Modern booster packs. And in those modern booster packs, if one set of cards (W/6, Bitch Elementals, etc) makes 1 deck viable while rendering 5-10 unviable, then peeps want bans. No mystery.


ArcherArchetype

This is true, modern decks have been expensive for as long as I played. However, buying into a modern deck used to feel like a safe investment in the sense that upgrades were comparatively infrequent. Justifying the cost of Goyfs and LotV was a lot easier when you had the security to know they were modern staples. Modern Horizons, and the recent era of power-creeped standard sets, make purchasing a modern deck a risky endeavor when the next set could push/rotate that deck completely out of viability, which also hurts the trade value of your investment.


Unit-00

Some people basically want modern to be a closed format where their old decks are always relevant, and new cards that push the old cards out need to be banned.


TheWagonBaron

Meh, Wizards has given my deck a lot of help as of late (Mill) and I still wouldn't mind seeing more bans. The issue is the power creep that has come with both Modern Horizons sets. They made it so you either had to play the powerful shit printed in those sets or have a way to address said powerful shit in your deck. I remember, that used to be a reason for a banning. If you are either playing something or being forced to address something, that means it is too good.


CluckFlucker

They want to see it happen at a normal frequency and not get a giant forced dump of forced power creep. Modern was built for the all stars of standards past. It no longer fills that purpose with direct to modern cards that have basically turned it into MH1 and MH2 Block constructed.


StickyEntree

they just don't want it to rotate every two years with a horizons set.


Strydder

I would add to your Omnath description 1. It replaces itself, 2. It undoes all the damage you take from Fetches and Shocks, 3. It ramps you considerably to where you can hard card the evoke elementals in the same turn you play it.


Due_Clerk_2261

Wren and Six in particular fixes mana too well in conjunction with fetchlands. It has also hurt the playability of x/1 creatures such as Birds of Paradise because playing them on the draw into a Wren is such a huge tempo loss. Also looping Boseiju is not quite as powerful as looping Wasteland in legacy but it's close. Mostly though I want some copies for EDH and banning them in modern would bring the price low enough to afford them.


Blenderhead36

Here's my pet theory. Ask someone whether banning Faithless Looting was good for Modern. You'll get three basic answers: I hadn't started playing Modern then, it was a very good ban, or it was a terrible ban. You'll see very few neutral or noncommital opinions. This mostly comes down to when someone started playing Modern. To those who played and loved Modern in it's 2014-2016 incarnation, 2018-2019 Modern was the format's low point since Eldrazi Winter, and the ban of Faithless Looting, unban of Stoneforge Mystic, and (season to taste) release of Modern Horizons 1 shortly thereafter corrected a format that had gone badly astray. To those who started in 2018-2019 and loved it, that's what Modern was, and the Looting ban and/or Modern Horizons ruined the format. What's happening now is the same thing. We have players from the pre-2019 era (and mostly the postpandemic era initiated with MH2) who think of Modern as a place where both linear and nonlinear decks thrive and decks stay around for a long time with minimal adjustments. We also have players from the 2019-2020 era of FIRE design, where new cards arrived every set that were clearly the best version of their effect that had ever been printed and each new set created new archetypes in every format. This era was also absolutely littered with bans across multiple formats as cards that were at the top of the Legacy metagame were expelled from each younger format (and in the case of Lurrus and Oko, even further). There are people who are crying for bans from Murktide and 4C because those have been the best decks for more than a year at this point. Neither deck is offensive in its win rates or metagame share. But there is a considerable segment of the Modern player base who is used to the best deck getting nerfed every few months, because that's how Magic conducted itself for two years and it feels normal.


Vulcen191

I miss creature based aggro decks. To me they are both fun to play and fun to play against. I think the existence of them in competitive tournaments is an indicator of a healthy format. Cards like Solitude and Fury completely wiped out that archtype. At least I got Pioneer for that I guess?


khuul1

Well if they dont ban w6 we cant have wasteland. And we need wasteland....yes yes you need one, even if you dont know that yet.


levetzki

Ah yes everyone needs more non games in modern. If modern would magically be fixed by wasteland they could just print an exile version that exiles itself and the target and they wouldn't have to ban wrenn.


khuul1

Weakling, i can see that green mages spoiled you.All you need is smallpox or 2 and you are going to feel better, trust me ;)


wyqted

Magic player when their own deck is broken: I sleep Magic player when they lose to another deck: ban it now!


FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Because modern sucks right now. Simple as.


Letseeker

Can you give reasoning why it sucks, otherwise that statement has no meaning.


TinyGoyf

i only have a problem with cascade and w6


TheWagonBaron

>cascade Like...the keyword itself? Why?


ChaseI117

Maybe because the new cards are the only thing that people are playing with. If you look at the cards that are being most played with it’s mostly cards from MH2 which is okay but at the same time it’s killed old strategy’s that used to be staples in the format which is dumb imo.


elfutapso

When you can't lose, you invoke ban for every card you face. The meta Is healthy and balanced, but it has to be remarked that wotc has made many errors in the last years. Few examples: W&6 +1 loyal: the capability of taking 1 Land makes her the strongest planes IMHO, because you can keep hands you would normally mull to. You just need to keep 2 lands of which one is a fetchland and your mana is basically fixed. BUT, It dies very easily. T3feri passive: uncounterable spell. No end-turn interactions. No instant-speed even in your turn. This card is so broken that I can't even even. BUT, It dies very easily. The huge problem is that in this meta you also have triomes, so playing both of this guys in control decks is now a piece of cake (e.g. 4c Blink). So you can control and not have to worry about fixing your manabase. Pitchable elementals: DID THEY REALLY HAVE TO BE ELEMENTALS? Why not a blue bird, a green elk, red ogre, black bat and white dog? Just saying some creature types that would neither influenze tribald decks heavily. No, all elementals. Nice wotc.


netsrak

Also the fact that they are creatures means that the cards that would normally interact with spells like that (Spell Pierce and Dispel) don't do anything.


ekienhol

As someone who has had their favorite deck removed from the format by MH2, I strongly believe bans are necessary. However, I understand there may not be data to backup the belief. Go wide strategies have completely been removed from the format and it is a horrible shame. ​ Changes I'd like to see: Ban W&6, Omnath, EI, companion mechanic (and unban lurrus) Change the Evoke elementals to be dies triggers instead of ETB


netsrak

People got too used to getting bans for everything from early Pioneer (which was intentional and good for the format) and when they kept fucking up cards for a year or two. Seeing Bridge, Opal, Looting, Gaak, Oko, Once Upon a Time, Astrolabe, and Field of the Dead all get banned over a short period of time convinced many people to ask and complain for bans instead of adjusting. I've probably forgotten some other bans too. Or they play a deck with a bunch of x/1s in Modern and Fury completely hoses their deck. TBH I think free spells make the format worse, but the format is currently diverse enough and healthy.


Itsoppositeday91

By diversity you mean each deck is roughly 30 to 40+% MH/MH2 right? That sure is diverse. Cant wIt for MH3 when 30 to 40% + is MH3


netsrak

I mean that every archetype is represented except prison I guess


rod_zero

The meta is actually stall after lurrus ban, which was very bad for BR mid range and hammer. People sense there is something wrong with the meta and everyone has a different opinion on what it is. IMHO the problem is that tribal/go wide decks are totally supressed by fury. Solitude is strong but it doesn't clear the board as fury with card positive outcome. Ban fury, unban lurrus and 4c will suffer against aggro


VipeholmsCola

Their expectations of a 'fun game' differs from wotcs.