By - DreadPirateTyler
I’d say the printing of Tourach that has the same effect for it’s kicker shows you it won’t be printed in Modern.
In general they have been liking the powered down versions of legacy staples like tourach, force of negation and cabal therapist.
at least the first 2 are playable. therapist is hot garbage. wish we had gotten the nic fit package instead of therapy and veteran explorer. im not even sure that's playable in modern
They themselves said they though cabal was gonna be strong so that puts into perspective WoTC thinking process...
To be fair bridge from bellow was legal
It might’ve been too good in 2019 modern, I just don’t think it would be too good now
It was never remotely playable.
I’m saying therapy might’ve been good in 2019, not therapist
From my rudimentary testing, I definitely don’t think Nic Fit would be good in modern. It just doesn’t work in the meta particularly well.
All the more reason to print what they can of it into modern. Give people who want to play that archetype their deck, and it (presumably) doesn't affect the competitive tables.
I totally agree. I have watched the number crunches for the MH sets like a hawk, hoping that either VetEx or Wild Growth make it in, but have been disappointed both times.
It is possible that therapy would be more effective in another archetype, though. I don’t think it would be problematic, considering how good the existing discard is, but you never know.
I think therapist will be good one day. But that day is not today
Which has had really mixed results.
There are certainly some designs that are too powerful for modern, but a lot of the "fixed" cards have been over-engineered and ended up either unplayable, or meta-game distorting in less than ideal fashion.
I feel like I'd much rather play around with the OGs than most of these frankenstein cards.
I think WOTC dislikes the randomness of hymn too much, tourach is about the closest we’ll get, up charging it a little bit
> I think WOTC dislikes the randomness of hymn too much
I think this is true. Being able to randomly having them discard two lands early game is too much for WotC.
You did say that, but I don't see how those are connected.
You fail to see the direct connection between “X is too strong/miserable/fast for Modern” and “Here’s X but weaker/funner/slower”?
I mean, having one doesn’t mean we will never have the other. The format is huge, and can only get bigger.
Gerrard’s Verdict is far more likely and power level appropriate.
Hymn is probably a little too strong. It's not really a skill-testing card for either player, and it can win games *randomly* as early as turn two.
I think a \[\[Stupor\]\] -like effect for two mana or \[\[Gerrard's Verdict\]\] would be about right.
[Stupor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/d/fd0b4aea-1e01-4afe-8054-77c5cc7935d6.jpg?1562786789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stupor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/48/stupor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd0b4aea-1e01-4afe-8054-77c5cc7935d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
[Gerrard's Verdict](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/8/583740c0-68cf-4205-b682-2f97c0880d42.jpg?1562915736) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gerrard%27s%20Verdict) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/apc/102/gerrards-verdict?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/583740c0-68cf-4205-b682-2f97c0880d42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I bought my plaset of foil Gerrard's Verdict months before MH2 in the hopes it would get printed into the format. I'd looooooove for that card to be legal, goddamn
Even if it’s legal, I doubt it would see play tbh
I guess you could try it in BW Pox, but that's the only thing I can think of.
I like this sentiment. Most people power our their hand by turn 4 so it really is just about timing and nothing more
Gerard’s verdict is super good in cube, I’d love to be able to play a BW taxes/smallpox deck in modern
>I think a [[Stupor]] -like effect for two mana or [[Gerrard's Verdict]] would be about right.
Here's the big stickup for me as someone who honestly would be fine with any of these cards in Modern: Mind Rot variants are *almost* good enough as is, matchup dependant, they are just too clunky. I really think Modern needs a 2-color 2cmc Mind Rot with downside to test the playability of the effect, *then* if it's healthy a Mono-B with downside, then finally one with upside.
A combo like BG would fit into the shells that already DEFINITELY want it, but won't slot easily into every Thoughtseize deck and its mother, and a negative life swing of 2 or so could perhaps reduce its ability to bloe out aggressive decks.
Jumping from Point A to Point D is very dangerous, balance-wise, when moving between super impactful mana costs.
Not really, but the issue is that random means lands can be stripped from your hand making your stellar hand turn into an easy win for the opponent based on chance, which wizards doesn't like. The fact that its two-for-one isnt a huge deal, we've already go expressive iteration and such cards that gain 2 cards for one, but the opponent losing 2 for one card, hymn, is slightly different.
Who knows, but I think tourach was their solution to 'reprinting' it; as long as he sees play i doubt they'll reprint it.
Yes, because of the word "Random"
Wrench Mind is not too powerful for modern (and in fact is mostly not playable in Modern), nor is Pulling Teeth.
I could see a spell like Gerrard's Verdict potentially being in that sweet spot.
The only thing I got from your comment is that Hymn is better than Wrench.
How does this mean that it’s too powerful for modern? Honest question
Hymn can rip lands from your hand. A turn 2 Hymn that rips your land drops and destroys your curve can be almost impossible to recover from.
Hymn to Tourach leads to a lot of non-games because of the Random element. Tag a land or two and the game can potentially be over. You can see sort-of-a fixed version in the Fall side of [[Rise//Fall]], but I don't think that's the right solution for a two mana two-for-one, since it can skew hard the other direction in just being a dud.
I've cast Hymn a fair amount (and had it cast against me!) in Legacy - the problem with Modern is there are fewer safety valves where Hymn is less damaging. Yes, you have Force of Negation and Veil of Summer, but there's no Daze or Force of Will and there's no Brainstorm to protect your good cards if cast in response.
I will say that Modern has significantly fewer methods of making a Hymn on one. No one is going Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn - and that's a thankful thing.
[Rise//Fall](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Rise%20//%20Fall&type=card&options=rotate90&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rise%20//%20Fall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddh/73/rise-fall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37257329-5946-44df-9f5a-50bd38b6a151?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I adore rise//fall and have been meaning to brew around it, well around it in part, in a sweet Grixis build that will never beat 4 color and then when I lose I can just mutter modern horizons 2 under my breath and all will be well.
Because Wrench is already borderline playable and the power delta between Wrench and Hymn is possibly as large as it can be between two cards that fill the same role for the same mana cost.
To reiterate - Wrench Mind has serious problems: It faces the inherent fail case of all discard spells, becoming dead or subpar late in the game. It has a significant unique fail case of being worst in some of the matchups it would otherwise be most important. Finally, the only way to increase its reliability (targeted discard) suffers from many of the same issues, meaning you are at a lose-lose trying to max its effectiveness.
Despite all of this, it's still *almost playable* in decks that support it because a 2-cmc clean 2-for-1 is simply so powerful. Hymn is better than Wrench Mind in literally every single way.
Sure, that's not a bulletproof argument, but it does help to frame its power level in more concrete terms.
Hymn is not a particularly fun, interesting, or skill testing card so I don’t think it would be a positive addition to the format. This is still supposed to be a fun game.
T3feri should also not be allowed on this basis.
Teferi is needed against some decks..
That doesn't make him fun
Depends who's side its on:)
Which of the top modern staples are skill testing. Cascade OP, Urza OP, ragavan OP, Omnath OP, elementals OP. Black has no spells on par.
2 wrongs don’t make a right.
those cards have *counterplay*. the only answer to discard is [[counterspell]]s or giving yourself hexproof[[veil of summer]].
They've been trying to mitigate random chance with stuff like the current mulligans rules. this just brings back more random crap.
[counterspell](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/4/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4.jpg?1645328634) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/33/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
[veil of summer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/a/aa686c34-1c11-469f-93c2-f9891aea521f.jpg?1650599837) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=veil%20of%20summer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/198/veil-of-summer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aa686c34-1c11-469f-93c2-f9891aea521f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Don't forget [[Wilt-Leaf Liege]] and similar, I promise they're totally playable.
[Wilt-Leaf Liege](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/9/4928cb86-6971-458b-ad74-1b39c0e1c177.jpg?1655934233) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wilt-Leaf%20Liege) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/294/wilt-leaf-liege?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4928cb86-6971-458b-ad74-1b39c0e1c177?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean all the spells you listed do require *some* skill, maybe a little or maybe a lot. Decisions about dashing ragavan, getting optima landfall counts with omnath, finding a safe window to cascade etc that’s some amount of skill even if it isn’t as much as you’d like. Hymn is quite literally “play on turn two with no decision making.”
Disagree, when you have multiple discard spells choosing how you order them is important.
Duress -> Hymn or Hymn -> Duress? Depends on your goals.
And you say you always want to play on turn two but that's not true either, if the target you want to hit won't come down until turn four it might be better to wait in order to have a higher chance of hitting it.
I don't know why people have so many problems with random discard as if there isn't already a ton of randomness built into the game.
Too strong for modern? No. Good for modern? Noooooooo.
Hymn is almost always legal in Penny Dreadful, a format I play often, and from experience I can say that the mere presence of Hymn has a surprisingly big impact on deckbuilding and mulligan decisions, to the point where it can warp the format around it to an extent (this season, there was a week where GW little kid with main deck Baloth and Wilt-Leaf Liege was the best deck because of all the Hymn decks running around).
That said, PD is a different format, so it might turn out a bit differently in practice. In Modern I don't think it would be super broken because there's stuff like Spell Pierce, Force, and Inquisition/Thoughtseize as commonly played answers to Hymn, but random discard that early in the game can make for stale/unfun gameplay and I can imagine that it'd at least somewhat warp the format around it (like Hymn decks vs anti-Hymn decks vs decks that don't care about Hymn), so I think it wouldn't be a good idea to legalize it in Modern.
Honestly I genuinely don’t believe it’s too powerful but that it won’t ever be printed into modern due to people not enjoying having to randomly discard as it can be very salt inducing. WoTC doesn’t like “unfun” cards at the current moment.
Unless those cards are Eldrazi, counter spells, or create treasure tokens
Sooo magic the gathering in general?
WotC has zero issues with printing "unfun" cards.
Unfun for who tho? The cards you mentioned are some of the most fun cards in the game.
Seems very subjective
Kind of like this whole post, I guess.
I completely agree with you. It's not a card we need to see in modern. What would your thoughts be on how to buff black then with a similar card?
Why would you think black is in a bad place or needs a buff to begin with?
Yawgmoth, Shadow, Living End and Creativity are explicitly build around Black payoff cards and are top decks in the Format. And beyond that - Mill, Rakdos Midrange (in 3 Variants - Delirium, Scam and Sac!), Saga Rock, Asmo Food, heck, even Mono Black Coffers Control - so many decent options.
All these decks use like 1 black card lol, the color sucks.
What you are saying here is true for Creativity, but a hyperbole for the rest, but you'll most likely know that already.
But for the discussions sake, let's entertain that delusion: Even if we assume that were true - do you realize how much power do these cards have when they single-handedly enable a competitive strategy? We'd have a serious problem if all those powerful cards would go in a single deck together.
Because let's be real about this - with the main question being about Hymn to Tourach as disruption, you aren't here because the color is bad, you are here because you want a specific strategy to be top tier that is a fair deck which is not Grixis Shadow or Rakdos Midrange.
It's perfectly fine that you want a deck you like to be more competitive, but don't blame that on the color.
Lol you're so wrong. I am unironically here because the color is bad specifically (and is bad in literally every format excluding standard) and only really does one thing, discard, and does it poorly. I'm not sure what you are on about with Grixis Shadow and Rakdos Midrange; they effectively fell off when Lurrus was banned aka the day black died.
I wonder where you get your information, because looking at [MTGGoldfish](https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper), Shadow is number 7 in meta Shares, the [SpikesAcademy Analysis Tool](https://aliquanto.shinyapps.io/spikes-academy-metagame-data/_w_f783ed8a/#tab-4018-11) puts it at Tier1.5, Rakdos Midrange is still pretty close to Tier2.
In Legacy, besides the usual Doomsday, ANT and Reanimator people are starting to play MonoBlack again too, because Dauthi Voidwalker and Opposition Agent are that powerful Prison Pieces, especially looking at Mono Black Depths (which has an infamous powerful combo with Vampire Hexmage), but aside from new decks to watch, even Shadow and Grixis Stiflenought are playable right now.
You won't get the blue out of Vintage, but as far power goes Black is the next best thing, powered by Tendrils, Bolas Citadel, Yawgmoth's Will etc, not to Mention the Bazaar decks - Hogaak and Dredge.
But hey, what shall i do when you toss out wisdom bombs like
>Lol you're so wrong
you're really astounding me here with your display of format knowledge and differentializing view on the topic.
But sure, just because there's no Tier0 deck in Modern that is playing black, the color is shit. It is one thing to be wrong, it is another to be in denial.
The "Lol you're so wrong" is a response to you trying to psychoanalyze me. And yes, compared to UR and 4c abominations, the color is shit.
If people can abuse cascade and have it hit 100% of the time the exact card they want i think its fine for us to get a chance of randomly hitting 1 of their 8 cascaders and lose anyways
Don’t forget! They have forces and you don’t!
Also they can side in hymns and violent outburst hymn you on draw step with FON backup
On that note, the massive overrepresentation of cascade decks in the format was one of the things that made me really stop focussing on modern. That and force of negation pricing me out of every blue deck I want to play, or W6 pricing me out of every lands deck I want to play
Yeah i feel your pain, i dont wanna play red cause ragavan, so yeah if i wanted to keep playing GDS not only did i need 4 ragavan but now also 4 shredder...
GDS with gurmag angler was the most fun i ever had in magic, i wish we could go back to those times, but maybe in some years in pioneer ... i just want tbr and stubby denial to be relevant again lol
Yeah MH2 modern is healthy
but expensive and boring as shit, i found old modern way more fun, probably because midrange was great and the format was slower, i mean i miss the times where the only monkey i had to worry about was treetop village and if i got a thoughseize against a combo deck id give me some time not like vs cascade decks where they just need to top deck 1 of the 8 cascaders and win on the spot most of the time
It used to be the PERFECT format for brewing, but now its hard to brew around anything but the Mh2 stuff. I have a huge trove of decks from pre mh1 modern that just do nothing now, plus tons of other stuff that ate bans from Opal and spirit guide and looting
i think aspiringsspike RB sac deck just shows you how brewing now works
you playing red ?
then 4 seasoned pyro and 4 grief
when i heard about the deck i was interested but after seeing so many MH mythics all my hype was gone lol
Good question! My thinking is that the randomness of it would be too strong in modern and/or super unfun to play against. A BB your opponent discards two cards might be more fair but still very strong.
Wrench mind is effectively discard 2 for BB the majority of the time and it’s borderline unplayable even in monoblack shells
Maybe discard two for 1B? Could be a sideboard card against control sometimes easier to use on curve. Could add cycling so it's not dead late game
I would agree with you. the randomness would make it more of an unfun card than a buff to the format.
Yes. At BB the random aspect of Hymn can generate non-games just by sheer luck. WOTC tries to avoid that in Modern.
I believe that the sweet spot is:
BB - sorcery
Target opponent discards 2 cards. You lose 2 life
I think regular Hymn is probably too strong for modern.
No but modern players are the whiniest group of people in existence so it’ll never happen. It’s not a 2 for 1 with no drawbacks, you might not even hit anything relevant, and even worse you might fuel some strategies. Random discard is a double edged sword, not nearly as one dimensional as people here think. Taking turn 2 to not impact the board is also a big trade off. It’s also an abysmal top deck once the game gets late. Wizards are just scared of powerful spells and want a creature run format so we don’t get cards like this and instead get hit with ragavan and omnath, companion mechanic, etc
You've never been to r/edh. There was a thread a couple weeks ago where someone was complaining about a player who conceded at the wrong time, leading to another player to win and the OP to lose in a edh tournament with prize support. I'll try to track it down and throw the link in an edit because it is wild.
Edit: here is the link for those interested. https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/w5ixg4/if_you_scoop_to_prevent_a_player_from_winning_a/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Oh man, I gotta see this
I just edited in the link.
At least EDH players/complainers have a story to tell at the end of a match. Modern players have a tendency to talk in short, describing matches under the assumption that the player opposite of them has faced the archetype.
Ya was gonnna say that edh players are by far the whiniest lol
Too strong might be the wrong question. It’s too “unfun” in that it breaks one of WotCs current design rules: don’t mess with people’s mana. Land-kill these days either costs 3 mana, replaces the land with a basic, or has a steep drawback.
Being on play and potentially stripping two lands from an opponent before they have their second turn leads to the “feel bads”.
Id honestly like to see hymn to tourach in modern.
I dont think hymn is too strong, its just kind of toxic gameplay and I don't think the designers really want to put that into modern
Lol competitive Magic is already pretty "toxic"
This post really made me think. It may be too powerful. The conclusion I came to is it feels more like a legacy card. Maybe a modern version would give them choice on one and random for the second. Maybe 2 cards at random but the cards have madness (1) or something idk.
This is a really good answer. I agree modern shouldn't take the identity of legacy but having something designed for Modern seems right.
Hymn feels like an alpha card. Not a lot of text, low cost + high power. It’s arguably better than sinkhole, right?
I believe [stupor] fits that bill at 3 cmc
No. People are cowards. The only deck the would play it is 8 rack and 8 rack is barely a playable deck.
Ehhh I think jund players would test it. It’s a really powerful magic card.
Personally I could see myself played hymn and a pox shell to a powerful deck.
Too powerful? Hell no.
With cascading nonsense omnath and expressive iteration that pales in comparison
Sultia midrange cascading shadeless into it would be played. Might not be good but it would absolutely be played.
There’s definitely decks that would test was my point that guy was just being a dick for no reason. The card would get tested. It may not be strong enough for modern. It may suck or be broken but it’ll get tested 1000%
Bro in what universe does jund play hymn? Pre horizens probably. But not now.
Legacy Jund plays 2~4 copies, which is probably the only Jund that plays Hymn, since it was never Modern-legal.
Legacy and modern are very, very different formats, lol. Ragavan is banned in legacy, but modern legal.
I am aware of that, I play both formats. You asked in which universe does Jund play Hymn. And the answer is in the one in which both the deck exists and the card is legal: Legacy
Well seeing as this was about modern in the post. And on a modern specific subreddit I figured we were talking about modern Jund. Was I wrong or are you just fedora tipping at me with a "well actually, technically"?
Re-read what you wrote: _"Bro in what universe does jund play hymn? Pre horizens probably. But not now."_
WE ARE ON A MODERN SUBREDDIT. I WAS REFERRING TO MODERN. IN WHAT UNIVERSE DOES MOSERN JUND PKAY IT. There's literally no way you're this dense.
I am aware of that, but you literally wrote that before MH Jund probably played Hymn. The only logical thing to assume is that you were talking about Legacy.
In no world does it see play in jund as it’s not printed modern legal yet. I 100% believe players would test it. If not jund then any gb rock style deck would.
It’s not too powerful. To those in this chat saying 2 mana 2 for 1s are too powerful, look at W6 ffs.
It wouldn’t be printed though because it can be an “unfun” card and since WotC has taken the new approach of only wanting to create “fun” environments and play, it wouldn’t be printed.
Nah. Power level wise it’s just meh and will only be played in 8-rack and other off-meta decks. I don’t think it’s even better than Tourach himself or Kaito in GDS sideboard.
Still it should not be printed in modern. The play pattern is abysmal and super unfun to play against if your only 2 lands are discarded. Literally worse play pattern than Ragavan.
>Literally worse play pattern than Ragavan.
Just adding on: it plays great as a 1-2 punch with Ragavan.
It's absolutely not too strong and anyone saying it is selling something. People complaining about "infun" haven't been paying attention to the meta since MH2
I think if you want black to be in a better spot again we could just unban Lurrus. That ban just made black worse and didn't do much else.
As for Hymn: I don't think it would be too strong, but I think people wouldn't like playing against it.
Back in 2018 I ran a very successful dimir discard prison. I was able to top 8 in many events with over 150 players and one of the fundamental cards believe it or not was Wrench mind. Honestly if I had hymn I believe my deck would even work in this meta.
I personally don't believe it is too strong because its a dead draw late game as with any targeted discard and so really would just improve black cabal prison at this point. A deck no one talks about.
Edit: The best game is the burning inquiry game, but some say the even betterest game is Hymn.
2 mana 2-for-1's without any drawback are a little overpowered. Some examples of drawbacks:
Sign In Blood -- pay life
Expressive Iteration -- must play one of the cards this turn
Target opponent reveals their hand. You may choose a nonland card. They discard it. Then, they exile a card from their hand at random. They may play that card until the end of their next turn.
This is really creative. I like this
Drawback: the two cards they discard are random.
Not always a real drawback, the same as your examples.
It would be fine in modern, I think. I feel like what makes Hymn strong in eternal formats is actually Dark Ritual- the ability to ritual, thoughtseize, and then have the choice to drop Hymn or a threat based on opponents hand contents before they even drop a land can make it really crippling. But in modern it’s a T2 play, and therefore way less good, in my opinion.
That said, it might be strong enough that it’s an auto-include for any black deck, and that might not be the best thing. Overall I’d love to see it get a reprint- it’s always been my favorite card in the game
Definitely playable in Modern. Modern is more than capable of handling Hymn to Tourach and the random effect. Tourach Dread Cantor is in the format to minimal effect (yes it is later but the effect doesn't become that much weaker later). Random discard is not new to the format (\[\[Burning Inquiry\]\] for example) and having a non game because you got lucky and tagged some lands is minimally different than when we bring in some niche SB hate for a strategy to try and cause a non-game (Stony for affinity, Blood Moon for Tron, RiP for Dredge, etc, etc, etc). Just my two cents.
[Burning Inquiry](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/4/a448bc9e-f5db-4507-ac40-7d8ee3598585.jpg?1561990726) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Burning%20Inquiry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/128/burning-inquiry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a448bc9e-f5db-4507-ac40-7d8ee3598585?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've been messing around with Whispers of Emrakul in 4c Shadow, and when you get it to hit on turn 2, it feels very strong.
What’s the play to do that? DRC into bauble I’d imagine
Yep, fetchland into drc, bauble and surveiling either a creature, instant, or enchantment.
I remember when fallen empires came out. Hymn was the only card in the set I cared about.
Yeah, I think it's way to strong for modern
The issue with Hymn is that it isn't skill testing at all and leads to lots of non-games. Nothing worse than your opponent hymning your two lands on turn 2 so you just kinda die on the spot and there was nothing you could've done about it.
Yes, please dont.
Sure, black can get its Tourach if they just give Vial decks a fixed Wasteland, or dare I say - REAL WASTELAND. But that’s probably a bad idea.
A wasteland “type” effect that gives opponent one treasure token would be amazing for Vial decks IMO, which honestly need help. DnT would become strong, decks like Humans/Spirits and the like would have a way to interact with big mana without losing as many “resources” because of Vial (and most big mana decks don’t play ending).
Finally, it would guarantee W&6 is banned. Which in turn - helps small creature decks!
Helping me fill my grave? Nah
Hymn would probably be too strong, I would love to see Cabal Therapy though
Hymn is probably just a little too strong.
But as an 8-Rack player, please WotC just print
BB “target player discards two”
Weaker then Hymn, but stronger then wrench mind
I think a good “fixed” hymn would be something like: BB - Target player discards 2 cards at random. That player may search their library for a number of basic land cards equal to the number of land cards discarded this way, reveal them, then shuffle and put those cards on top.
Hymn is a strong card. Tourach himself sees a little play in Modern and Legacy. I think Hymn would see significantly more play in Modern than it does in Legacy.
I'm not 100% sure it breaks anything, but I think people are underestimating how strong it is. If people start playing Thoughtseize + Hymn decks, we'll see a lot more Veil of Summer I think. Veil was good when people were on 4x Thoughtseize 3x IoK with some targeted removal. Nowadays it doesn't see that much play, just like 1-2x in sideboards. With people jamming Hymn, the ability to prevent a 2 for 1 while doing a 2 for 1 yourself against Hymn would likely prove invaluable.
My little 8rack heart hopes it'll make it one day. With all the card advantage nowadays I honestly don't think ut would be overpowered.
It's a similar reaction to how people thought grief and ephemerate would dominate modern when it was spoiled. In a perfect world hymn would be devastating, but in practice it would be only a bit better than wrench mind in decks that are focused on discard.
Both hymn and sinkhole should be fine in modern, not sure though.
Hymn tears anus in legacy, if Modern got power crept enough then potentially.
Hymn might not be too strong, especially because of how badly fair black decks have fallen off in the format. However, it definitely could be, and it would almost certainly be one of the highest power level cards in the format.
The reason it's likely to never be added is the luck/non-game factor, where if you get hymned (especially on a mulligan) and they basically leave you with only lands or only spells, you lose automatically.
Wrench is not strong enough, and a lot of people think Hymn is too strong. Modern Discard needs something near Hymn just to survive though. Maybe something like [[Skull Raid) for cheap might work.
I would rather see two mana discard two with cycling for one.
The random is such a beating and the cycling would make it not dead late game.
Could you imagine 8 rack? Omg…. Insufferable.
Hmmm what about sinkhole?
I’d love me some sinkhole.
Or honestly wasteland in modern. Albeit not black I think it would benefit black greatly.
Also would correct all these free 4c piles.
Wasteland is the card we need and deserve in this moment, but WotC would never do it because they'd want parity with the shocklands and to prevent prison control from being top tier.
The best wed ever get is:
Modern Wasteland - Land
As ~ enters the battlefield, you may pay 2 life. If you dont, it enters the battlefield tapped.
T, Sacrifice ~: Destroy target non-basic land. Exile ~.
Hymn is one of the worst cards ever printed and even I don't want that visited on the Modern playerbase.