T O P
DressedSpring1

Exiling a card is a good balancing mechanic, the issue is that Wizards has staples “draw a card” to so much shit over the years that the drawback doesn’t matter because card economy is meaningless. Need to fix your mana with a rainbow land enchantment? Draw a card. Want a flying flash deathtouch blocker? Draw a card. Want a planeswalker that bounces permanents and hates on interaction? Draw a card. Want a 4/4 that ramps you, gains life and pings? Draw a card. Exiling a card should be a real decision but it isn’t because card economy doesn’t matter for a number of the decks using the elementals.


CapableBrief

To be absolutely clear, examples 1 and 2 are card sthat *could* exist without a cantrip ride rbut they would also see absolutely 0 play. I'd bet even if you substituted "draw 1" with "scry x" we'd probably need x = 3 to see anywhere near the same levels of interest in these cards. Teferi probably needs a whole redesign anyways. I have no idea what the last example is and it's really bothering me :( As for card economy not mattering, I think it's partially true. That particular archtype/deck does a really good job at making it a non-issue though between Ephemerate, Risen Reef, Omnath, Yorion etc there are so many ways to mitigate/ignore/flip the ressource drain. WotC made some really cool designs that I think were almost perfect for what the goal was imo but the environment just makes these a bit too strong. It doesn't help that they are Mythics in a premium set and that not everyone can play them.


swordkillr13

I think the last one is Omnath. Etb draw, and the three landfall triggers are close to what OP said (I wouldnt call 4 damage to everything a "ping")


CapableBrief

...I feel like a total idiot. Thanks!


OmegaX119

I honestly thought you were joking but now it’s very funny. Thank you for being humble lol


CapableBrief

I'll be honest my brain went to "who tf fetches a land and pings?? and *draws*???" I wasn't considering the context of him describing cards from a single deck. I thought my brain was fried ngl. Goes to show how crazy a card Omnath is if you fudge the description a bit. It does soooo much for a 4 mana payoff.


No-Seaworthiness7013

Then 1 shouldn't exist since it absolutely warped the format. Mana constraints based on how many colours you want to run are such a core component of magic it should be a real cost to try and get around that.


greenpm33

Are you aware Abundant Growth has been around since 2012 seeing no play?


No-Seaworthiness7013

No I wasn't, but I was referring to [[Arcum's Astrolabe]]


CapableBrief

I don't think it's fair to say Astrolabe warped the format when some insanely powerful and synergistic cards were right there with it the whole time (Oko and Uro). Plus Astrolabe without a cantrip rider is literally unplayable, to go back to my first point.


MTGCardFetcher

[Arcum's Astrolabe](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/2/c2462fdf-a594-47d0-8e10-b55901e350d9.jpg?1613386977) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcum%27s%20Astrolabe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/220/arcums-astrolabe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2462fdf-a594-47d0-8e10-b55901e350d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


TKOS7

Nail on the head. People hated Uro piles because force of negation was just a free counterspell given that Uro drew you all the cards you’d ever need. Now we have the omnath decks doing the same with the pitch elementals except even worse with ephemerate but everyone seems to think it’s fine. Oh also they get to play a clone of arcums astrolabe, a card that was banned precisely because it let 4c decks run blood moon. Hmm.


changelingusername

>Now we have the omnath decks doing the same with the pitch elementals except even worse with ephemerate but everyone seems to think it’s fine. Oh also they get to play a clone of arcums astrolabe, a card that was banned precisely because it l I can't really understand how people forgot about the Astrolabe and Uro precedents. 4c is doing the same thing with even better tools.


TKOS7

I call the deck ‘safety net magic’ because you just don’t have to make any concessions or sacrifices for your power level. Manabase is free, most of the spells cost 0 and everything redraws so card advantage is free. Also omnath gains you 4 life per turn. bUt iT lOsEs tO bElCh- nah fuck off every deck has bad matchups that doesn’t make omnath ok.


changelingusername

Exactly, and it still has counterspells that might line up well. The deck does too much with too little effort.


changelingusername

I agree with your point, but since those cards have been in modern for longer than elementals, all you can do is make more prohibitive costs. I'm also ok with having card draw as a bonus as long as it's tied to blue. Abundant Growth instead doesn't make much sense.


DressedSpring1

> I agree with your point, but since those cards have been in modern for longer than elementals, all you can do is make more prohibitive costs. Why? The pitch elementals aren’t problematic in any deck that has to pay a real cost by exiling a card. Solitude is eminently fair in UW control. Murktide and Rhinos don’t even play Fury a lot of the time. RBx decks don’t even run fury or grief unless there is a rebuy mechanic like ephemerated or malakir rebirth to claw back some of the card disadvantage of casting a pitch elemental. The issue from a design perspective is not that pitch elementals don’t have a cost, the problem is that some decks don’t give a shit about the cost at all.


changelingusername

>The issue from a design perspective is not that pitch elementals don’t have a cost, the problem is that some decks don’t give a shit about the cost at all. And that's why I proposed more restrictive costs. Playing multicolored spells makes them virtual 2x pitches for the elementals that need them. I wouldn't mind playing against 4C and similar decks if the cost of having multiple colors was real, like pitching single-colors cards. That tweak would shift their playability to decks with fewer colors that are already committing to a more restricted card pool.


DressedSpring1

Your proposed change for future pitch cards where the pitch is single colour would just mean that future designed pitch cards wouldn’t see play outside mono coloured decks. I’m not sure that’s a good design direction tbh as I think the elementals actually encourage a lot of interesting deck design and play decisions outside of 4C Omnath decks.


changelingusername

Actually, multicolored spells already promote playing multiple colors to achieve multiple effects colorpie-wise. It’s all about commitment, and being able to pitch multiple color cards makes almost every card in a deck a potential pitch for an already powerful and mana-free spell.


CapableBrief

Green has had cantripping on permanents, including green color fixing enchantments, for a long time. I don't know why people want to gatekeep cantripping behind bluenwhen that colornalready does it more often and better than everyone else. Locking card draw behind a single color was a massive design mistake of early MTG and changing that is one of the best decisions WotC has ever done for this game.


jeha4421

Yeah, every color should have access to card advantage to some extent.


TKOS7

Ok, so where are my efficient blue removal spells? I’d like to not play reality shift or pongify please.


CapableBrief

I would tear you a new one for being an idiot but I'm too tired. Every color getting card draw/churn is not the same as every color getting every mechanic or type of interaction. You can write condescending comments pretending that's what I said but it simply isn't. Go learn game design or study some other card games.


[deleted]

I still think banning all cards until we’re left with [[grizzly bears]] vs [[storm crow]] is the way to go about all this.


MTGCardFetcher

[grizzly bears](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/0/409f9b88-f03e-40b6-9883-68c14c37c0de.jpg?1562546736) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grizzly%20bears) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/268/grizzly-bears?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/409f9b88-f03e-40b6-9883-68c14c37c0de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [storm crow](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/3/036ef8c9-72ac-46ce-af07-83b79d736538.jpg?1562730661) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=storm%20crow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/100/storm-crow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/036ef8c9-72ac-46ce-af07-83b79d736538?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


changelingusername

lmao


fivehitcombo

Sengir vampire vs Serra angel


[deleted]

Power creep


kmoneyrecords

My solution was to keep evoke the same but require the basic land type associated with it in play. That way living end couldn’t do Grief, and it adds a meaningful mana base restriction where fastlands/mainlands/etc become worse in the early games. It also adds an extra step for 4c elementals where they have to consider what they’re fetching for and what elementals will be available to them early vs having UU for counterspell and stuff.


gnowwho

Triome turn 1, shock turn 2 and you already have 4 basic land types and UU. It's better than nothing, but I don't know if that would hit 4c much. Maybe return a to your hand would be heavier than discarding for most decks?


kmoneyrecords

I think just a tiny influence on 4c is enough; it’s not like that deck is problematically busted as is, this would just shave a little bit off the ceiling or make a lower floor. Also triome > shock is only some of the openers; Consider all the times when they are priced into fetching forest turn 1 into abundant growth to beat blood moon, etc.; now that keeps them from fury/solituding for at least a turn and forces them to predict the following turns. I think the bounce basic land effect could work but then would be a major change in balance as opposed to a more subtle one


changelingusername

That’s a nice input!


AAABattery03

> The philosophy behind the concept of “cost” in MTG shouldn’t only be “I have the resources to do it”, but also something close to “All players involved should know I have the resources to do it”. Basically, the same thing that always happened with counterspells, removals, and abilities. The issue is that this design philosophy has effectively been power crept out of Modern. We can actually take Vintage as an example, because it shows a late-stage version of a problem Modern is going through the early stages of. ~~Legacy~~ Vintage has… [[Mana Drain]]. If paying mana for countermagic was **at all** okay, this would 100% be seeing play. It doesn’t see play because paying mana for countermagic is bad. You have to answer a myriad of turn 1 combos. You can’t pay mana, it’s just bad to try, so you play free spells. You play Forces and Dazes and whatnot. Modern is developing that same problem. Have you ever tried playing against Living End while you’re on Murktide or Shadow? Every game becomes turn 1-2 you play Magic, and then turn 3 onwards you basically need to hold up multiple pieces of countermagjc every turn (because you need to be able to Outburst on your end step + Shardless on their own turn, or Outburst backed by FoN). Decks like Hammer, Cascade, Titan, Belcher, etc have so much speed and consistency that they demand interaction on every single turn, and eventually we hit a critical mass of speed that demands that Wizards gives fair decks *free* interaction because otherwise they can literally never develop the board. There is one alternative solution: they could attach more and more effective interaction to threats, a la a power crept Spell Queller or Skyclave Apparition, so that fair decks can act interactively while pushing their game plans forward. Otherwise, either let fair decks have free spells, or ban unfair cards until we can call Modern a turn 4 for at without laughing.


MTGCardFetcher

[Mana Drain](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/a/ba874c0c-f66f-4edc-9859-40273487aef0.jpg?1608909310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Drain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/80/mana-drain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba874c0c-f66f-4edc-9859-40273487aef0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


ArborElfPass

Mana Drain is banned in Legacy?


AAABattery03

You right. I derped. I changed my point to Vintage, because the overall point is valid still.


changelingusername

I'm not a card designer, but I can see a lot of design space between Swords to Plowshares and Solitude.


tankerton

Honestly, we could consider their non pitch Mana costs going up. Mh1 force spells as a reference point have no utility to go impact the board when their utility is unused. Force of negation is a 3 Mana counter spell which is fine, but vigor is just dead if you maindeck it. 3 Mana for a 3/4 reach is a real body that you can play if the graveyard hosing text isn't useful. 5 Mana 3/3 double strike fills the role of a manland once resources are exhausted. Solitude too.


changelingusername

Absolutely, them having legs makes them a pain in the ass and cards too easy to play with. They are optimal at going to mid/late game, but as they come down, then they shouldn't constitute a reliable win condition themselves. I'm all ok with answers but making them also threats with no actual downside is absurd.


Zenith2017

Not that I think the pitch elementals are exactly the best design. But they *do* have an actual downside. Multiple, actually. They're just generally worth the cost. For example, I can't play Solitude or Fury in my 5c super friends because I don't have enough red or white count. that's a deck building cost, and not mentioning the nature of 2 for 1 yourself for spot removal


changelingusername

Could you motivate the downsides aside the “card disadvantage”?


Zenith2017

Edited my comment but to respond here as well - considering white or red count is a drawback. Not a huge one, but it is a real, actual cost. There are decks I'd run evoke elementals in, but the shell doesn't support their colors. And it is card disadvantage, unless you're killing 2 targets with Fury. That's a huge deal for decks like UW that greatly prefer to keep a high card count in hand. Just my 2c that we shouldn't downplay these as not 'actual costs'. The pitch eles are toxic and/or too good in spite of the costs, rather than because they don't have a downside. Them being threats I actually like - I just think their ETB could have been a little more controlled. Maybe Fury should have been 2/2 or 3/1 to make it a little less intimidating on the board. 3/2 solitude I'm totally ok with.


changelingusername

With Fury, too many things went wrong. Double Strike is broken on a card that already deals with threaths when it enters. Red has so many abilities like first strike, haste, eventuall trample. Double strike makes it a 6/3 in practice.


horsehome

Wait really, the double strike is like the most tame thing about the card. You really can't deal with a double striking 3/3?


changelingusername

Am I blind or is Fury the hardest elemental to deal with on the board? Grief requires two blockers or a 4+ beater. Endurance even easier. Solitude is the easiest. Subtlety is something I wouldn't even consider. Fury is practically a 6/3 and you need at least a 3/4 with no prior damage assigned. If you want to dodge the trade, then you need a 3/7 with no prior damage assigned. You can also assign multiple blockers, but guess what? It impacts the board as it enters, so it paves its way easily. 4 damage on a PW means it's basically dead. The same goes for a creature most of the times. If you have both, you can prioritize the creature and eventually ping 1 or 2 damage to a pw and then beat it for 6. It dies to bolt and heat, yes, but not everyone splashes red. It dies to solitude and pte, yes, but not everyone splashes white. And these are all free or 1cmc removals. Green doesn't remove that efficiently. Blue at maximum bounces, which you don't want unless you have a board that can hold it. Black does have some 1cmc removal for the Elementals, but they're very narrow, while Push doesn't reach it. The next best unconditional removals are Damn and Infernal Grasp, at 2cmc. There's Baleful Mastery too, but it's kinda questionable.


horsehome

So wait, you think that a 3/3 double striker is too much for modern?


changelingusername

I think you're either dumb, functionally illiterate, or have a very short attention span. Read the whole fucking card.


Zenith2017

Yeah good points on double strike with removal. Maybe just 5/1 or 6/1 could have been better. Even with haste over double strike, sac at end step? That could be kind of cool. Still carries the problems of pitching for no mana but at least it doesn't dominate the board itself.


changelingusername

Also because you can’t play around a Tazmania that slaughters everything both as an attacker and blocker.


Zenith2017

Just bolt it and go 1 for 3 :galaxy-brain:


changelingusername

Yeah but not everyone is playing bolt or heat.


CapableBrief

I think there are a few missed points on the original designs: 1. They should have been Avatars instead of Elementals. Firstly because it makes more sense flavourwise and secondly because they should have foreseen the obvious synergies. My bet is someone at WotC is a huge Element stan. 2. Assuming we keep them as creatures, Evoke is probably the wrong mechanic to go with. Channel is probably better in terms of balancing because as much fun as blinking/rebirthing these guys is, it's also *way* too much value for so little a cost. The trade off is that they are now uncounterable as spells but maybe there's a middle ground between the two I'm too tired to think of. Another option would be to have these effects as *death* or *leaves the battlefield* triggers. 3. Alternatively don't make them creatures to begin with. I think these could have made for a fine cycle of spells if they were balanced properly whereas now they feel maybe a bit too strong in the decks where they synergize.


changelingusername

The problem all revolves around evoke + etb. Evoke is fine and flavorful with Elementals. Leave the battlefield triggers would have been fair. Death triggers would have been… too good? This way, leyline and RIP would have been suitable hate cards. Ok that 4C doesn’t like Torpor Orb, but it still has t3feri, counterspell and elementals are still somewhat viable as vanilla cards. Omnath doesn’t care much about torpor orb except the card draw.


CapableBrief

Flavour argument was in relation the the "concepts" the card were supposed to represent. Fury and Solitude and Endurance aren't really *elements* but they could have avatars that represent them. And again, I dislike hownsynergistic these are with other contemporary designs when basically every other tribe that had a recent showing in Standard got shafted. Switching from ETB to death triggers is to avoid the insane swing in card advantage between Evoking and casting where the latter puts you infinitely ahead. I wasn't really considering what hate cards would/wouldn't apply. I feel like those shouldn't factor in desgins (you build hate cards in response, not design cards around existing hate cards).


changelingusername

I get your point, but they're incarnations and replicate the cycle from Lorwyn. They could have worked nicely as Avatars though. However, I don't know if them being elementals is such a big deal except for Risen Reef and Harbinger. They might have been interesting as Tribal spells too. I can't really address a single problem within the elementals, I just think they have too many things going on at the same time that a nerf here or there would have made them more balanced and not instant staples. Another design that I liked a lot in the past few years are adventures. Cards like Brazen Borrower and Murderous rider are nice, they do one thing at a time, they see different hate (like Negate, Spell Pierce, etc), they need to be cast twice for full potential, and they aren't as exploitable.


chrf8t

Evoke is "the elemental mechanic". It has only ever been, and presumably will only ever be, printed on elementals.


CapableBrief

Interesting! I had never noticed it was exclusive to elementals. Good thing my second point is that Evoke might not have been the right choice for a mechanic :) *Channeling Fury* sounds way cooler too imo


ekienhol

oh the flavor of that is off the charts! I really dig it.


satimy

Modern seems fairly diverse at the moment and the most popular deck is probably UR murktide and it doesn’t play any pitch cards usually


changelingusername

UR Murktide being the most played deck doesn't invalidate my point about free spells.


Reon88

I disagree. The only deck abusing the MH2 Evoke Elementals is 4C Money piles and mainly due to a single mythic 4C card that **was born in a standard set** during the FIRE design period. Their Evoke Cost is balanced enough, the problem is you have a 4C beater, drawer, pinger, pitchable, castable and re usable in Omnath. Instead of re doing / re designing the MH2 Evoke Elementals, I rather have punish cards in MH3 or whatever other set for the greedy manabases and the 4C goodstuff decks. Evoke Elementals in two colors aren't as busted as 4C + Yorion. The culpirt is Omnath & Yorion, but that belongs to a different conversation.


TwilightSaiyan

This, so much this. The problem with modern right now rests in 2 places - MDFCs that allow nonlands to be played as lands and fundamentally add disfunction to the format through cards like belcher being able to win practically uncontested on turn 3, and 4c decks, and to say that the problem with 4c decks lies in the evoke elementals is poorly analyzed at best and dishonest at worst. 4c decks are able to run Yorion, a free 8th card that generates an insane amount of value if it hits the board, but can also act as just paying 3 mana to "free" cast Solitude, which breaks the evoke cost, though doesn't mean the evoke cost is broken. On top of this, the cost of playing 80 card decks to get access to Yorion is just slotting in cards like abundant growth, IFC, and W6, which are a mana fixer that allows you to avoid getting blood mooned in your 4c deck while also generating card advantage, an effective 2 mana removal spell in simic of all colors that generates card advantage, and arguably the best card advantage engine in the game, at least the best in modern respectively. Topping this all off is Omnath, a card that before it was released Maro said "we try to avoid 4 color cards because we don't know how to balance them" which then went on to prove that very statement by just being a decent beatstick that does everything you could want in a creature and can, in a pinch, be pitched for any of the 3 best evoke elementals. I don't like calling for bans, and honestly, think banning Lurrus was a mistake, as the best course of action to have taken was to remove the companion mechanic from the game. Yorion is fine in main deck. Lurrus is fine in main deck. But when you have these as 8th cards at effectively no cost to deck building, it becomes a balancing problem that gets worse the longer we get better and better cards.


Reon88

I wont forget ever the day I paid 3 to put Obosh in my hand and Fury + Ephemerate my opp's board. It is pretty obvious that the capability to put a card in your hand, arbitrarily, and then pay an evoke cost without any fear, is egregious and shouldn't be that way. Companion as a mechanic is the problem, not the divine noodle nor the dream cat. Totally agree with the remotion for the Companion mechanic.


Zenith2017

That's the Price of Progress.


Reon88

I concur... I wish for a functional reprint for Price of Progress, Back to Basics or similar greedy manabase hate, preferably to be printed in MH3 or similar product.


TheRecovery

Price of Progress would push people *towards* 4c Control not away from it. Omnath represents the best lifegain in the format at the moment. Why would I play any 3 color deck (Jund, Esper, Temur etc) and get punished by PoP, when I could play 4c, get better cards, get punished the same amount, but also have Omnath gain me 4 life per land and fix my mana per fetch? I’d switch to 4c right away. PoP isn’t the card to battle 4c.


Zenith2017

I thought of something like 1R Sorcery - each player takes 2+X damage where X is their number of nonbasic lands. Little less broken off the top late game but still above rate against these greedy manabases. Maybe even give it a really expensive Flashback, like 4RR.


levetzki

anathemancer is so close but three mana and 7 for unearth is to much.


Zenith2017

Never seen that very cool! [[Anathemancer]] I've had a very bad Grixis Unearth zombies brew in my head, maybe this can slot in the side. Can't wait to lose some games with this one :p


levetzki

It used to see play when modern was first introduced. Thanks for the brackets I can't find them on my phone.


MTGCardFetcher

[Anathemancer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/b/ab106855-bd85-4c00-b596-c46d34f8cdd0.jpg?1562643508) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anathemancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arb/33/anathemancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab106855-bd85-4c00-b596-c46d34f8cdd0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Reon88

*Lights cigarrette* That's a name I haven't heard in a long time.


Reon88

Yeah, it has to be a sorcery and preferably with flashback. I'd word it like this does 2 damage for each nonbasic land each player controls.


Zenith2017

That's actually strictly better than POP though right? I would avoid it being an effect like, "drew off the top and dealt 12 lol GG" - if you're delaying Burn and winning you shouldn't just die out of nowhere from a single two drop. For example, let's say it's turn 7, it's been a close game - opp has 2 basics and 5 nonbasics, I have three nonbasics and a mountain. Drawing this to deal 7 against that greedy mana and take 5, rather than deal 10 and take 6. I feel 2+X is a little more balanced while serving a good role. I'd also be game to see something like, 1R instant no flashback, deal 2+X to each player, no life gain this turn. Now it's a finisher against greedy interactive decks while remaining playable postboard, and can help with Omnath/Shadowspear/Solitude life gain being so amazing against Burn. And you can be super crazy with scourge of the skyclave lol


levetzki

They could cap it. X where X is two times the number of nonbasic lands this number can not exceed 6 or 8?


Reon88

1RR, Sorcery Destroy target land. This deals X damage to that land's controller, where X is the number of nonbasic lands in that player's graveyard and battlefield 2RRR flashback. So you can effectively hate on non basic lands, even fetch heavy decks.


Zenith2017

The Dredge Slayer. I kind of like it.


Hips_dont_lijah

Punisher mechanics are usually not well received for competitive play, but what about "For each nonbasic land, it's controller may have ~ deal 2 damage to them, if they don't, sacrifice it."


jg87iroc

PoP would radically warp the format and Leyline of sanctity would cost 87 dollars a pop.


seneza

Leyline does nothing to Price of Progress, by the way


Grarr_Dexx

[[Price of Progress]] doesn't target?


jg87iroc

Lol I forgot about that minor issue


MTGCardFetcher

[Price of Progress](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/1/b1342144-7a15-438b-a848-3196238a79e8.jpg?1580014614) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Price%20of%20Progress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/141/price-of-progress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1342144-7a15-438b-a848-3196238a79e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Vaitka

For the non-fury elementals, the only issues the really have are that they are creatures (and hence easily blinkable and otherwise abusable with ephemerate and gang), and that their not bad rates for the creatures themselves. Solitude for example is one of the more aggressively costed permanent exile creatures ever printed, and has flash, and has lifelink. That means the "fair" mode of the card isn't really a draw back in the same way say [[Force of Will]] is as a 5 mana counterspell. If you just make the non-fury elementals into non-creature spells I think you eliminate 90% of the complaints, and if you add 1 generic mana to all their mana costs you get rid of the remaining 10%. [[Fury]] gets broken out because it is problematic, since it breaks the card disadvantage principle. Solitude, Grief, and Subtlety are all 1-for-2s. You spend 2 cards to answer 1. Endurance is technically a 0-for-2 but is run as a grave-hate answer so it's somewhat different entirely. Fury, meanwhile, is almost always at least a 2-for-2, and can be a 2-for-3 or even 2-for-4. That's problematic because it breaks the cards supposed tradeoff (tempo for CA). Pyrokenisis might honestly be too strong for Modern as well, and to make a more fair Fury you probably would need to replace it's ability with 4 damage to a single creature or planeswalker, or go full pyroclasm and make it hit friendly things as well. I don't think making it a non-creature or increasing the mana cost would really fix the issues the card has.


changelingusername

Making it a noncreature would make it a wrath functionally, not a mad boy that paves its way to beat you for 6 every turn.


MTGCardFetcher

[Force of Will](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/d/dd60b291-0a88-4e8e-bef8-76cdfd6c8183.jpg?1598303900) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force%20of%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/51/force-of-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd60b291-0a88-4e8e-bef8-76cdfd6c8183?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fury](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/d/bd281158-8180-40b9-a5b7-03cfc712d81a.jpg?1626096626) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/126/fury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd281158-8180-40b9-a5b7-03cfc712d81a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


rega619

Tbh (somewhat off topic) even doing something as little as wiping double strike off fury would’ve been good. Shit, it can even keep first strike lol. Just don’t let it punch me for 6. I do like the reach on endurance and the menace on grief. Flavorful and not too insane. Could take or leave lifelink on solitude. Subtlety sees so little play I can’t actually remember what keyword it has… flying? Probably flying. But if they all were just ETBs it might make them a little less frustrating to the player base. Other evoke cards are not attractive to hard cast, so why are these, yknow?


fnxMagic

No idea how hot this take is, but I feel the ~~problem~~ thing isn't the pitch spell-side. It's the playable creature on the other side. Or, more precisely: it's the modality that's the ~~problem~~ thing. You get to trade in an extra card for mana early in the game, or pay extra mana to gain card advantage later in the game. You get to choose which axis to sacrifice/gain resources at different points in the game. This solves the two (opposite) problems control faces in a game: not falling behind on mana early, and pulling ahead on cards later. There's no balancing act: one card does both. And at a competitive cost, which is rare for a modal spell. That said, I'm not sure I agree the Evoke-cycle is problematic, and if it is, I don't know what it would take to balance them. Just thought I'd drop some thoughts.


changelingusername

Yeah, I was just thinking about correcting the early game interaction. I agree with you for the modal thing, but I like modal cards. The problem is they are too good at doing both things, making them among the most played creatures in the format.


TheRecovery

I’m in agreement with the other posters that the free spells as designed, are fine. The issue with them is that they basically reinforced a problem was already occurring. That problem being the consolidation of perfect removal, perfect threats, and perfect countermagic into 2-3 colors - Red, white, and Blue. The problem with midrange deck was always that there was a wrong half of the deck issue, but 4c Control is a different breed: Unholy Heat, T3feri, Solitude, Prismatic Ending, March of Otherwordly Light, Counterspell, and Fury address every permanent type in the format. Combine that with cards like Ragavan, Wrenn and Six, Fury, Solitude, and Omnath, that all are +1s or more and can win the game on their own, and your whole deck is a must answer win con. Expressive Iteration is a card no other colors can compete with, and it’s, of course, UR. No more “wrong half of the deck”. Wizards kept sucking midrange power from Black and, to a lesser degree, green, and the format shifted hard as a result. Lurrus was a band-aid. A crutch black could lean on. The free elementals, the best of which are the red and white one, are balanced cards being taken advantage of by an unbalanced color dominance in the format.


byzantinedavid

Modern a few years ago - "Print more cheap interaction! Modern now - "Cheap interaction is unfair!!!"


Appropriate-Ad6129

I think when people said that they meant things like Swords to Plowshares or Counterspell. I don’t think anyone was asking for the answers to have legs.


changelingusername

Cheap and mana-free are different things.


horsehome

At a certain point in format size and power the responses have to be free. The challenge is preventing free answers from forcing through unfair stuff. If you like the gameplay you're describing, pioneer is still at the power level where free answers are not necessary


Lostaldis

I think the issue with the interaction is that pending hits any permanent type and typically can hit anything cmc 3 or less and in modern that's a lot of the important permanents in the format. With heat you pay one red mana to deal 2 or 6 damage which is an insane amount of damage for one mana. If heat just doubled from a shock upto 4 damage it wouldn't be so annoying. I have no complaints about evoke elementals like OP does.


Zenith2017

I appreciate your thoughts on a tough topic here. My two cents (and forgive my pre medicated morning brain): I think that the evoke elementals situation would be a lot less dire if 4c were less dominant. Hear me out - I know that's like saying "X card will be worse if the deck playing it is bad", but it's true, right? But there's not a good [[counterbalance]] against 4c pile outside of linear combo currently. Fury and solitude and endurance are part of this, but not all of the problem. I think if Aggro as a macro archetype were equipped with the right tools to match 4c's power and punish the durdly gameplan, the evoke elementals would be less of an issue. 4c's spells are slow enough that a suped-up Prowess or Zoo may be able to ignore them (*matching the classic play patterns between grindy midrange and aggro*). Cool fury, you got one or two of my guys the same turn you play W6. Play a hastey dude, bolt you and swing for 8? It will be ok that Pile decks have this insane free removal suite with upside, if they're still soft to the archetype that's supposed to prey on them. But that archetype is almost nowhere to be seen; midrange and artifact-matters are almost as aggressive but with way better cards ([[wild Nacatl]] vs [[dragons rage channeler]]) so why bother? You could be interacting and grinding instead of playing dumpy creatures that don't measure up anymore. As it stands today, a Solitude into Planeswalker or ending or whatever is deadly but you can come back; Fury to hit two or three creatures is devastating and almost impossible to match if they can untap and land Omnath or something like that. Our aggro decks today rely on cards that are (A) not rated per cost like they used to be - goblin guide vs ragavan looking at you, (B) are fragile just like the creatures we use (like Aether Vial - dies in a stiff breeze these days even in game 1), and (C) reliant on low power cards to be good. You get a good payoff if you have a board full of 5 elves, but it's almost impossible to hit that state these days. So your remaining 2 elves that you stuck swing for like, 4 damage. Big whoop. I don't think aggro should necessarily have any enabler that's uninteractable. That was a part of Vial I really hate even today - a hand with Vial was ridiculously better than without in tribal decks. But we could at least get good payoffs for aggression that don't die to the cards that's already good against us. I think this is why Merfolk is still good today - it disrupts and plays good cards while reaping the tribal lord payoffs with unblockable flash attackers. Aggro needs individually good cards that are able to stand up against the threats and answers we have today. Having a bunch of tribal dudes out is unrealistic until they print a better Coco or Vial, so we need something else to enable the archetype. Guides and Rift Bolts don't cut it anymore, nor do Nacatls and Nimble Mongeese.


m00tz

The data shows that 4c isn't dominant. It's just another deck among the many powerful modern decks. Murktide, Living End, Rhinos, Hammer Time, Yawgmoth and Burn all have more representation and have put up better results lately. The expensive midrange pile is going to be good when people are doing less powerful midrange stuff, but the format evolves and next week fast combo and synergy decks go up in popularity and the 80card pile has a hard time finding its hate. This subreddit confuses their dislike of certain strategies with "dominance" and the numbers just do not bear that out to be true.


Living_End

Just bc 4c isn’t dominant doesn’t mean it’s what is pushing agro out of the meta. 4c is sort of policing the format saying “if you don’t have a plan to beat me you aren’t a good enough deck”. Tbh agro decks got nothing good enough from mh or recent standard sets. It’s falling behind and it can’t keep up 4c ever. To be honest it need something to improve that match up so it can come back and be represented.


Zenith2017

*less dominant* being the keyword here - I didn't claim 4c was dominating the meta. Although I do feel it's what is pushing Aggro out because it plays the cards that do that best, as well as preying on most other interactive strategies. The meta I want to avoid is rock-paper-scissors between 4c, linear combo, and murktide Edit - and I also feel 4c is what pushed Bx midrange out post Lurrus ban At the end of the day i am just trying to illustrate that the 4c strategy, in part because of its free interactive spells and in part because it goes over the top of other interactive decks, could be better preyed upon and balanced with a stronger base for Aggro to emerge from - and without any bans to boot. I'd rather not ban Yorion or Omnath or Abundant Growth or whatnot, I want to see the classic archetype that's supposed to 2-0 this strategy to come back. That's true even though 4c isn't the best deck in the format right now/for now.


changelingusername

Calling for bans is not well perceived here, but it’s also true that the deck is the one that can absorb a variety of new inclusions most easily. It’s indeed hard to slot cards into it, but its manabase allows casting 80% of the cards. Now it’s going to have a better time due to the new triomes entering the format, meaning they can splash for everything while still being able to cast cards with high devotion.


Zenith2017

It's certainly in a very dangerous position. Like all decks, in a vacuum it may only get more powerful over time. You can play basically any card that doesn't have an untenable disadvantage for the strategy. I do wonder how much impact 4c will draw from the new triomes. I don't think they'll actually increase the count of triomes, just swap them to be a little more diverse rather than multiple copies of a given triome. So it might be a noticeable but not enormous impact I think. I could deal with a little less abundant growth in the world though. Wotc stop lol


changelingusername

Bant and Naya triomes will enter the list, especially Bant, allowing it to fix 2/3 color pairs T2 and all color pairs by T3. This means that counterspell will only get better in early game.


Zenith2017

Ugh Gross


m00tz

Burn has been making a comeback. Its meta share is higher than it has been in years, due in no small part to the strong matchup it has vs 4c and Murktide. And yes -- the larger, more controlling midrange variant does pretty much push out the more aggressive, lower curve midrange variant. That has always been the case, besides when the lower curve decks had a stronger endgame than the control decks (Lurrus) and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's okay for Thoughtseize to not be the best thing to be doing in Modern all the time. It always comes back around at some point. I think it's a pipedream for every deck in Modern to be perfectly viable all the time, and people look back on older versions of the format that had its own share of problems behind rose-tinted glasses. This format isn't perfect but it does shift in the way a healthy meta should.


MTGCardFetcher

[counterbalance](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/3/c329ff2b-0331-4934-a8df-870dd7bf402b.jpg?1593274911) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=counterbalance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/csp/31/counterbalance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c329ff2b-0331-4934-a8df-870dd7bf402b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [wild Nacatl](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/a/5a3bb291-11d1-45e0-a60a-e75c7dc94b94.jpg?1562916230) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wild%20Nacatl) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddh/4/wild-nacatl?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a3bb291-11d1-45e0-a60a-e75c7dc94b94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [dragons rage channeler](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/c/4ced112a-e775-4f97-97b3-74877e9dce12.jpg?1626096503) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dragon%27s%20Rage%20Channeler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/121/dragons-rage-channeler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ced112a-e775-4f97-97b3-74877e9dce12?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


changelingusername

I get your point about Aggro, but my post wasn’t only about that. It was about free spells in general. Also, I don’t like seeing it as “elementals are good because of 4c” but rather “4c is good because of elementals as they’re designed”.


theyux

4C is good because bloodmoon is bad. Bloodmoon has been a safety valve for years but they have been really powercreeping disenchants as well as banning every combo they see. This is a meta designed for 4c not intentionally but by removing natural predators why not go for high power with pitch spells. I dont think they can put the bloodmoon genie back in the bottle, so I believe the next best option is to set some of the older combos free or allow decks to attack mana. Modern is very much legacy 2.0 now, we finally have the interaction that the lack of which was hurting the format (forcing constant bans). But we are missing the greedy manabase police. I think we should add price to progress back as it would make burn a hard counter to 4c nonsense.


changelingusername

I advocate land hate as well, in MH2 it’s been kinda shy with just Break The Ice. Black deserves a sort of sinkhole. Boseiju isn’t enough for 4c as it basically fixes their mana.


theyux

The other problem is wrenn protects against land destruction. I think either a bloodmoon that draws a card when it dies or price to progress would be more impactful.


changelingusername

Wrenn has promoted LD in Legacy and potentially promotes LD in Modern with Boseiju. The card does too much land recursion basicallfor free when compared to other alternatives like Loam and Witherbloom Command.


theyux

Promoted and negated. wasteland is not a good lien against a wrenn and six deck. I was pointing out something like sink hole is really not that scary for 4c. Price to progress would be very scary for 4c. and in general encourage many decks to run a few more basics.


Living_End

Before mh2 both 5c Niv and 4c snow were decks and were pre cursors to current 4c control. This is a pre elementals deck. They just added to the deck making it go from tier 2 to tier 1.


Zenith2017

I know. I'm coming from the angle of, these free spells we have today matter in the context of mostly 4 color. Not intended to address like FON necessarily, this is just my two cents on how it's impacting our meta as it stands


justinleona

I'd argue eternal formats have a major problem with circumventing the fundamental restrictions of colored mana - either through the extreme degree of deck manipulation (fetch lands, cantrips), free spells (evoke, cascade), or fast mana (moxes, rituals, ramp). This results in a scenario where deck design becomes all about packing in the highest value cards rather than trying to find the right balance of high value cards and a reasonable mana base.


changelingusername

Finally someone who understands what I’m talking about.


MatoFIVE

Require having a basic land of the color of the evoked card on the battlefield in addition to exiling a card of that color from hand. For example: "Evoke--- Exile a <> card from your hand, this cost may be paid only if you control a basic <>." This adds a desired telegraph to the gameplay and weakens abuse in multicolor piles. It also creates more of a cost in deck construction beyond simply having a certain number of cards of a given color in the deck.


PM_ME_FOR_LESSONS

This Is actually the same conversation as the ban. Abject complaining about the opponent pitching cards to be at a resource disadvantage because you can’t adapt to the speed of the format. Your solutions aren’t feasible, erattas are saved as an emergency button because you can’t change the text on already printed cards. This does nothing but and confuse the casual player base and make maintaining events needlessly more difficult.


changelingusername

I don’t like the new elementals, but I’m not calling for bans, simply discussing fair future designs. Saying that I don’t adapt to the speed of the format when I’m talking about cards that are designed to slow it down is straight nonsense.


pumpkinwavy

The pitch elementals, as currently designed, are fair and good additions to modern.


Lostaldis

Also glad they exist and think they have been nothing but positive for modern as a whole and are taking the heat for other problematic cards.


PotatoFam

Agreed. I wouldn’t want them any weaker or stronger than they currently are.


changelingusername

🤣


Morgormir

People complained about free spells, after vehemently requesting them, saying that Force of Negation, which should be a safety valve on the format, instead acts as a combo enabler in decks, while missing that this was *always* going to happen. Look at legacy and vintage. Free, efficient spells have always heavily encouraged combo decks, while pushing out at the same time decks that don’t include blue. People think they want Daze, Force of Will/Negation and free counters/spells, but they really don’t, as by design you are now pushed towards blue to compete. Free spells should have the same stigma as free mana, and yet over the years bans and sentiment have strongly skewed one way but not the other. Tldr: there isn’t any balancing free spells. Free spells suck and shouldn’t be a part of any format that wants to take itself seriously, like Modern.


changelingusername

Personally, I’m ok with free spells like Forces, not much with the elementals as they don’t require the same deck building choices since they are meaningful in all the stages of a game as both threaths and answers.


Morgormir

Forces are even more format warping though.


horsehome

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about


changelingusername

sure


HD_Phantom_

I feel like from a design perspective it would be more advantageous to think about adding more counter play potential than rebalancing an effect. If evoke were to become a serious problem with the addition of new evoke cards then there would presumably be more hate cards printed to offset this. Given that we play in a best of three format if you realize your opponent is playing evoke cards and you dont like that you should have sideboard slots dedicated to dealing with the most disruptive threats to your strategy. Or alternatively if you believe the evoke cards to have too much value, you can run them in your deck and be in the same position as your opponent. I’m sure there are plenty of resources out there regarding how to play around the evoke elementals so I won’t go out and list them all but to start I’d see if maybe running [[Void Mirror]] could help you. Hope that helps :)


changelingusername

Yeah, you basically justified power creep as it manifested over the last few years.


HD_Phantom_

I mean this is modern, you wouldn’t expect a card that’s worse than what’s currently available in the card pool to see a lot of play. If you’re looking to avoid power creep then it would be better to play a rotating format like standard


ekienhol

The problem is 2 of the best hate cards for evoke don't cut it. 1 torpor orb becomes a double edged sword leaving a free body behind. 2 void mirror only stops them when they are actually evoked, does nothing of they were truly cast. The hate we have is insufficient.


AlucardusX

Overall dominance in a format or lack thereof can be misleading. The gatekeeping effect of the evoke elementals is an overall negative. They are yet another example of a Haymaker that can be topdecked and undo any incremental advantage that a traditional tempo or control deck tries to generate. WotC admittedly doesn't test for constructed modern. I'm sure Fury isn't too oppressive if you only play it in MH2 draft. Forcing other decks out of the format is still a net negative. Joining them because you can't beat them is not very palatable to some players.


changelingusername

THIS. At my LGS and online too the discussion is always the same. “I want to play this, but I can’t because of that; I want to play that, but I can’t because of this”. Ok variance, but solituding the fury that furied my pw or else is lame.


horsehome

If you're trying to suggest that they didn't test MH2 for Modern I don't know what to tell you. Fury is also not what's keeping your shitty elves deck out of the format. It's the fact that we haven't had a relevant elf printed in years.


Vade700

Fury seems like it would be absolutely nuts in Draft lol.


AlucardusX

It's not a 4 of in draft. It's a mythic, so you are not likely to see one in a single pod. In constructed, you might see 2 per game, if you are against a deck playing red. You can write off a card being powerful in limited if it is appearing at the mythic rate. Aggressively running multiples in constructed is a different issue. Redundancy is what makes it a problem.


Vade700

I just took the original phrasing of “I’m sure Fury isn’t too oppressive if you only play it in MH2 draft.” as in you meant it wasn’t that insane in actual games of limited. I just was noting how that card was probably an absolute bomb in its draft format.


AlucardusX

It's cool. I was just saying that it won't factor into most limited games because of its rarity.


Procyonlotor360

I wish they required an untapped land of their colors. “If you control an untapped island/swamp/plains/forest” would make the free cost less egregious for the instant speed ones.


changelingusername

Yeah, that would hint some predictability or more restrictive sequencing.


QuicheAuSaumon

The only one that is a real problem is fury, because it allows the card to break even, or worse, cardwise. Pitching doesn't matter if you can 2 for 2 or even 3 for 2 with it.


Living_End

FoV can 2 for 2 and artifact and enchantment decks still very much exist. Agro / creature decks aren’t bad because fury exists, they are bad because agro isn’t keeping up with the rest of the format. It’s gotten nothing significant in the past ~3 years.


QuicheAuSaumon

Except FoV can be very situational. Fury is nowhere near as situational. It's also the only pitch spell that can do more than break even. And I strongly disagree with aggro receiving nothing in the past 3 years. Horizon land and Darcy comes to mind.


Living_End

I agree FoV is more situational but it’s still a 2 for 2 and the decks it hates out still exist. The horizon lands are “fine” but they aren’t FoN, omnath, shardless agent, murktide, urza’s saga hammer good. DRC is a tempo card not a great agro card, but if you want to count it that’s fine, it’s not enough to keep agro relevant in the format. It needs an all star card that punishes decks for trying to slow down the game.


changelingusername

Agree about Fury, the card is just a more playable Shatterskull Smashing. However, pitching isn't a real problem for me, especially because you're most likely to pay that cost early game when you're supposed to have resources for it. Timeliness can be way more valuable than card advantage because it can make some dope starts to stumble for enough turns to stabilize.


QuicheAuSaumon

That's exactly the issue. It is pushing out creature centric-aggro and tribal deck out of the format. At no cost since you're effectively trading two cards for two or more.


NeutralPlatypus

I would maybe argue that [[Prismatic Ending]] is the one pushing tribal out by sniping turn one [[Aether Vial]]s. It also hits any of the one or two mana threats with relative ease and is basically a free roll in any 3+ color white deck.


MTGCardFetcher

[Prismatic Ending](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/2/825969b9-3c70-4fca-8cab-696e9ca7cdb2.jpg?1626093920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prismatic%20Ending) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/25/prismatic-ending?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/825969b9-3c70-4fca-8cab-696e9ca7cdb2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Aether Vial](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/1/c14cdc38-dd46-495e-93bd-d2694b64d5ad.jpg?1562853669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aether%20Vial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/212/aether-vial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c14cdc38-dd46-495e-93bd-d2694b64d5ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Ungestuem

Don't ever suggest Alchemy rebalancing is a good idea. It is not. It is horrible. If you like it, go play Arena.


changelingusername

Did I suggest it's a good idea? I've only said that errata and balancing are a more frequent topic, and it's actually interesting to see how the design team revisits their work.


Ungestuem

I don't know. I read you mentioning Alchemy and started yelling and screaming at my neighbors.


ekienhol

I personally think the evoke elementals would have been completely fine had they been dies triggers instead of enter the battlefield. This way the only way to ensure the ability goes immediately is to evoke them limiting their damage later in games when they are normally cast. This change also corrects a problem with one of the better hate cards for them being a double edged sword, torpor orb, which would literally leave a free body behind. One of the main reasons I hate their current design so much is because there literally is no true hate piece for them, void mirror only stops them if they are evoked. There needs to be a hate piece that is not a double edged sword and if the ability needs changed to correct that so be it.


changelingusername

The point on the lack of efficient hate for them is so on point. Torpor Orb is also a kind of hate that can currently be dealt easily. Void Mirror is a card that gets worse as the game goes on, it’s merely a silver bullet for cascade at this point.


horsehome

I need to write a thing that I can copy and paste onto every one of these thinly veiled whinge threads: As the size, and thus power level of a format increases, cheap, broad, and even free answers are necessary to prevent the format from being overrun with the multitude of unfair things you can typically do in large, powerful formats. Prior to the printing of the elementals modern was broken more often than it wasn't. People constantly complained about it being a "drag racing" format where you tried to do your thing faster than your opponent could do their thing. Now that, thanks to MH2 they are able to print answers into the format commensurate with the power level of the proactive strategies in the format, we can actually have interactive games of magic and are better prepared for when the next powerful mistake comes down the pipe. If they were not able to do this, modern would continue to increase in power as every non rotating format does and would continue to have long stretches of being unplayable. This is just the reality of non-rotating formats, as they get larger they get more powerful. As they get more powerful the requirements on interaction change. If you really really miss the gameplay of "old modern" (whatever that is for you since everyone has their own romanticised idea of when modern was great) you should try a smaller format like pioneer. If you're enjoying what modern is becoming as it gets larger and more powerful please stop with the silly complaints and come along for the ride. The gameplay is really, really good thanks to the answers we have available. Regardless of MH sets or FIRE design (or whatever hot button whinge topic is popular among the serial complainers) modern was always going to change from what you remember it as to something closer to legacy. This is the process we're currently undergoing.


Lostaldis

If each of the evoke elementals was printed as another tribe I wonder if you would still be crying. Sorry you can't play your elves in 2022. Maybe when mh3 comes out frodo will be the ragavan you need.


changelingusername

The tribe is relevant only for Risen Reef actually. You completely missed the point, and the target was larger than the Pacific Ocean.


Lostaldis

You have some hard on for fury as if the card is single handedly pushing out aggro decks or something because it's fReE. The elementals are fine. The card design is fine. Evoked fury only hits big in a handful of matchups, comes up small in a lot more matchups and breaks even most of the time. Also it costs 5 mana to hard cast it so yeah I hope in a format like modern my 5 drop has relevant text. Shit take on the evoke elementals.


changelingusername

Fury has too many things going on. 4 damage, even when split, can do a lot post combat, or they can keep a pw from doing relevant things. Double strike is insane, it’s basically a shatterskull smashing that also punches as a unholy heat on delirium.


Lostaldis

Whats that?? On the board a vanilla double strike creature attacks for a lot of damage!? Wowzers, I had no idea tysm op my view has changed. I support your decision to ban all double striking creatures from modern. They are simply too strong. Keeping a planeswalker from doing a relevant thing? Doesn't heat and bolt accomplish the same thing? Shame we can't also have the option to pitch a red card in addition to my bolts. And yeah sometimes your opponent has a handful of dudes and you can pick them off. I've played the card a lot in various shells and decks. Most of the time you get a solid trade out of it, some of the time you 2 for 1 to put damage on relevant cards, rarely do you get to nut on your opponent and blow them out of the game because you killed a board of x-1s and x-2s. But hey idk comes with the territory of playing creature decks that they exist in a format that also is seeing things like damnation and supreme in maindecks. But yeah dude next banlist I'll be rooting for the likes of fury and mirran crusader to get the boot. Way too pushed imo.


changelingusername

Are you dumb or what? It’s the combination of all those things in a single card that’s too much. Can I borrow you some IQ?


Lostaldis

Card costs 5 mana in a "turn 3 format". I'd hope my 5 drop does something good. Have you heard of primeval titan? Card costs 6 mana and would blow your fucking mind. Get this, it's a 6/6 for six, puts two lands for FREE into play AND when it deals excess damage to a creature then the excess damage goes to the opponent. Cards insane.


changelingusername

Yeah but Titan needs some setup which you can disrupt in the meantime. Fury requires another red card in hand at minimum.


horsehome

For 5 mana in Modern that's an acceptable amount of stuff to do.


DontBanYorion

I think it would be cool if they designed a cycle of multicolored pitch elementals for each color pair, but for their evoke cost, you'd have to exile cards whose combined colors include the color of the elemental (so for example, for a boros elemental, you'd have to exile a red card and a white card, or a card that's both red and white). It would help with balance if some of the time players had to pitch multiple cards, while incentivizing playing fewer colors overall. That said, I think the format is currently quite balanced. We should be striving for this level of stability, not running from it.


Snakeskins777

I think it's just fine the way it is. Losing a card to play the etb effect is fair enough


changelingusername

The problem is not losing a card. The problem is that it’s unpredictable and too easy to enable.


Snakeskins777

This is the the direction modern is going. Personally I love it. Powerful fast cards. Lots of interaction, tons of viable decks. And My bet is the next straight to modern set if going to be packed with more of this type of stuff


changelingusername

At this point, it’s not anymore about strategy, sequencing, keeping mana open or else. It’s just about having hand traps like in YGO or playing UNO, where it only matters what you draw and not (much) how you play it.


Snakeskins777

Hmm not really. It still requires all that. Your entire deck isn't free spells. 1 -4 copies of of 60 and 80 card decks doesn't kill all strategy


horsehome

Nah but you should try actually playing the game instead of complaining.


changelingusername

k champ


PotatoFam

ITT: More moaning about 4C Yorion even though the deck isn’t even Tier 1 right now. Yawgmoth and UR Murktide are laughing all the way to the top of the meta.


horsehome

The moaning is constant and always thoroughly misinformed. Threads like this make me incredibly happy that the subreddit doesn't control the banlist.


changelingusername

The meta doesn’t change over the course of a week. This post isn’t only about 4c. If you want to look like someone that knows a lot about MTG, and you want because you’re living your life talking modern things on reddit every day, then just stick to the conversation. Reducing the conversation to mean comments doesn’t make you smarter.


PotatoFam

1. Absolutely Modern meta changes every week, which I why I choose to grind this format in particular. 2. It’s on topic. This whole thread is just shitting on 4C Yorion. 4C with Yorion is not a top tier strategy right now. Pick a different dead horse to beat. 3. In my opinion, the free evoke elementals are the primary reason for such a diverse meta these past few months. They were excellent additions, helping to provide a very interactive format while not being oppressive. T1 decks tend not to play them too much, but they give a lot of T2 and T3 decks breathing room. The pinnacle of Modern design.


changelingusername

Please master, teach me how to dodge the point of the whole discussion the way you do. If I was in you, I’d rather sacrifice some grinding time and invest it into understanding what you’re reading and commenting to because you’re assuming shit only because you’re used to the posts in this subreddit.


PotatoFam

Can you not read or something? I answered you point for point.


changelingusername

I can read and I can interpret things. You assumed the post was about 4c, got salty about it and tried to invalidate my point based on that. And no, the meta doesn’t change except following bans, new sets and epiphany decks. A few percentage points oscillating doesn’t make an actual meta shift because the number of threaths and answers is basically the same.


OmegaX119

Make the evoke cards an ability on the card. That way it can’t be countered, gets through teferi, and torpor orb can’t stop it. But at least the can’t ephemerate them when activating this ability. /s


changelingusername

Basically channel.


OmegaX119

Exactly :)


horsehome

Please stop. Please just stop. The elementals are fine.


Ultimaya

git good and side-in void mirror


changelingusername

Void mirror is a bad card actually against free spells. It gets worse as the game goes on since they can hardcast them. Torpor Orb instead is a double-edged sword.


[deleted]

they could just fucking ban omnath already….