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Saturday Modern Challenge Results - Oct 9 2021

Saturday Modern Challenge Results - Oct 9 2021

Sodek_MTG

Fun fact - Belcher could be in Top 8 if I didn't skip my first land drop in G1.. Not skipping turns is pretty important for a noninteractive combo deck xD Still, I really like the deck and I'm surprised that it's not played more.


tophimos

Any advice for someone who might pick it up?


Sodek_MTG

Learn how to build Recross piles. The difference between mediocre and a good Belcher player is that one nonReforge pile that will be built for 4+ turns ahead and will play around as much stuff as possible.


Obviously_Basura

Remember to set your stops to avoid missing your first turn.


derekchiang

Hi Sodek! A few questions if you don’t mind answering: - Why do you play [[Pact of the Titan]]? - What do you think is the best combo deck in this meta? Specifically, between Belcher and Ad Nauseam, which do you think is stronger in the meta?


Sodek_MTG

1. Because you need a creature for Infernal Plunge to be able to Recross combo pile from just 2 lands. I chose it instead of for example Ornithopter because it's red for Fury and can be a surprise chump blocker if you only need to untap with Belcher. 2. Belcher probably, because it's harder to hate out. Ad Nauseam has its good match ups too, but it's very soft to Chalice of the Void. Still, both have 'their' metagames to shine.


lichtblaufuchs

Silly question maybe, but Chalice vs Ad Nauseam should go on one to counter Spoils and Angel's Grace?


Sodek_MTG

It depends. The problem for the deck is that both options are painful to play against.


MTGCardFetcher

[Pact of the Titan](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/6/4612effe-8ca2-4c27-90d2-d9255acc80d9.jpg?1619397348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pact%20of%20the%20Titan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/179/pact-of-the-titan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4612effe-8ca2-4c27-90d2-d9255acc80d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


fay-jai

I just want to let you know that I look forward to your posts each week! Thank you so much @bamzing


fetchislandgo

Same! These posts are the modern highlights of my week!


lichtblaufuchs

Let's drink to our magic culture heroes


calmingRespirator

Worth noting that there are actually 7 hammer decks in this top 32. 2 BW, 2 Mono White and one RW all with Lurrus, and one Mono White and one BW without Lurrus. It’s the most represented deck by quite a bit, but it has enough internal archetype variation to not appear that way. It’s really interesting how many different builds have sprung up, and how they’re all competitive. I wonder how the matchup spread changes between them.


stillenacht

And makes it hard for me to decide which list to copy >.>. Some of the sideboard choices I don't even understand in the first place, Hangarback Walker?


calmingRespirator

I’d guess Hangarback Walker is there for matchups with a lot of non-exile removal? Since it’s a resilient threat in the longer game with some snowball potential. It plays very well with Urza’s saga and gives you resilient bodies to attach hammer to, as well as being a scalable threat you can cast when you have a lot of mana, but also off Lurrus. I personally think it’s a bit slow. But I can definitely see the thinking behind it. It’s cool tech! In terms of which list to copy, I’d recommend one of the mono white Lurrus ones. I’m personally on the B/W Lurrus one with a couple tweaks, but I reckon the two hardest parts of the decks are mullagining and sideboarding, and having thoughtseize in the board makes both of those things significantly more difficult. Also personally I prefer ingenious Smith to Giver of Runes. I really feel like Giver underperforms a lot.


stillenacht

Yeah I guess it's more that I don't understand why it would be good in this specific Lurrus deck and no other Lurrus deck. Things like hush bringer or void mirror actually stomp bad matchups whereas Walker just seems like... Fine? In the grindy matchups. I play hardened scales and even there it's not like Walker in the opening hand makes me that happy, let alone without real support lol Seems difficult to believe you gain more win% than more sanctifies for example, but the guy who made the deck list is better then me so I'm just puzzled


calmingRespirator

You definitely don’t want Walker in the opening hand. I think it’s good here because the quality of bodies in hammer really doesn’t matter. All that matters is that the body can hold a hammer. Which Hangarback does pretty well, since (assuming no exile removal) it’s at least 2 bodies, sometimes more. I agree it doesn’t seem like it breaks grindy matchups wide open or anything like void mirror or hushbringer might. And I personally wouldn’t run it unless I was certain it matched up well into the expected meta. But I don’t think it’s out of the question.


SqueeonmyJace

I ran BW for a while with [[Lingering Souls]] in the sideboard for the GBX and UW matchups. I assume Hangarback is serving a similar role but with more artifact synergy. It is a blowout having it stolen by Archmage's Charm though.


MTGCardFetcher

[Lingering Souls](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/c/bcf1288a-8e2c-4a69-afcf-af293f66d007.jpg?1593812843) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lingering%20Souls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/12/lingering-souls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bcf1288a-8e2c-4a69-afcf-af293f66d007?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


draxR93

There are a reddit or discord for Hammer time?


Alozzk

There's a tab on the subreddit which says "discord links" or something like that, where you can find discord links for most archetypes. The one i linked below is the one listed as hammertime, altough i might say i have not joined it so i can't say if it's really active. https://discord.gg/zwttjkA


calmingRespirator

Good question. I’m unfortunately not the person to ask. I haven’t really gotten into discord yet. I just really like data and play hammer in paper (when my area isn’t in lockdown)


C10ckwork

Invest in [[thieving skydiver]]


MTGCardFetcher

[thieving skydiver](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/f/ff84ea71-e477-44f7-a3f8-77fef708efeb.jpg?1604195053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thieving%20skydiver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/85/thieving-skydiver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff84ea71-e477-44f7-a3f8-77fef708efeb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


grixxis

The RW version seems to be the mirror-breaker. [[Magnetic Theft]] does have it's uses as extra copies of sigarda's aid and puresteel, but it's role in the mirror seems pretty huge. One of the red flags for a metagame is when the "best deck" starts shifting to beat the mirror game 1 without losing too many points overall, so this might be something to keep an eye on going forward.


Reply_or_Not

The fact that you can move the equipment after they attack seems like it could lead to some huge blowouts


MTGCardFetcher

[Magnetic Theft](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/e/de0c1e37-fedc-43d9-97fd-b797c6c2fbbe.jpg?1562880223) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magnetic%20Theft) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/74/magnetic-theft?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de0c1e37-fedc-43d9-97fd-b797c6c2fbbe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


RayWencube

Really wish they'd launch companions into the sun.


kirdquake

whenever I go to mtg goldfish and see the companions I almost throw up. They are the only thing in Modern I dislike.


Publius__Valerius

>They are the only thing in Modern I dislike Hard agree but one thing I don’t see discussed much is the possibility that the other things in modern we like are viable because of companions as a tentpole in the meta’s power levels. Like, if companions go, how many decks’ viability disappears and what replaces the vacuum they left? Will the replacement deck(s) be really that much healthier for Modern? What if the hole they leave is occupied by an ever-more homogenizing force? I honestly am unsure


stillenacht

I feel like a lot of Lurrus decks don't lose to much, but also become more unique. For example: 1. Hammer has a version running nettlecyst and swords; might even experiment with etched champion. 2. Jund probably loses the most of lurrus, but might start running liliana/bloodbraid again, etc. 3. Burn barely cares; at any given trialing period 1/4-1/3 of decks don't even run lurrus on Goldfish already (this is because matchups that both go really grindy and where lurrus adds significant % when they do go grindy are relatively rare because it isn't worth running stuff like bauble or seal of fire). Yorion decks i think are actually hurt a lot more unfortunately, even though I find them ugly, especially Yorion taxes lists.


levetzki

I don't see a companion that contributes to a unique deck that shows up consistently. Any deck with lurrus would be fine without lurrus, yorion decks would be playable just a bit different (less creatures probably), the cat guy is only used in control for a free creature card, gyruda isn't good enough, jegatha randomly shows up sometimes but the decks playing it lose next to nothing. The only one that makes a unique deck that I have seen is obosh as a red midrange deck. All the other decks would still be fine decks.


Jayfeather69

It takes a lot for me to strangle a cat with my bare hands, but Lurrus and Kaheera are testing that limit.


KarnSilverArchon

What did Kaheera do to you? She is just a proud mom of five orphans.


internofdoom33

I hate that many people who play Kaheera have never noticed the story present in the art. It's really well done.


KarnSilverArchon

I remember two years ago when everyone was complaining about Modern becoming an aggro/combo race car format where everyone was just trying to go as fast as possible. Seeing Azorius Control come out as one of the top decks paints this image into my mind of Kaheera being the proud parent of the successful Azorius players and their [[Solitude]] .


MTGCardFetcher

[Solitude](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/7/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153.jpg?1626094105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Solitude) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/32/solitude?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Zaneysed

[[kaheera]]


MTGCardFetcher

[kaheera](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/4/d4ebed0b-8060-4a7b-a060-5cfcd2172b16.jpg?1623748548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kaheera%2C%20the%20orphanguard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/224/kaheera-the-orphanguard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d4ebed0b-8060-4a7b-a060-5cfcd2172b16?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


TheBlueSuperNova

Wut


TTHVOBS

They are both cats


TheBlueSuperNova

Im aware. I’m more concerned about the first part of that sentence


Jayfeather69

I'm demonstrating my restraint with regards to a violent action that's considered by most to be a "green flag."


Plunderberg

It's just weird because "It takes" implies that you actually do it. Regularly enough to have a good idea how difficult it is, ha ha ha ha. "It would take" is probably what you're going for, as it implies that to do so would require a \*lot\* of grievances, and (most importantly) that you haven't ever actually done it.


FrozenPhoenix71

Lurrus and Kaheera are both Cats.


DailyAvinan

I didn't like them at first but I've come around. I enjoy most games that companions are involved in. Just offering another opinion.


RayWencube

But your opinion is different than mine and therefore inferior. Jokes aside, I feel like they homogenize deck building.


Broken_Emphasis

I feel like Lurrus is really the only companion that really homogenizes deck-building. Obosh and Yorion are strong, sure, but their restriction is far enough from what decks in the format would otherwise be doing that it's a conscious choice to build around them. And then there's Kaheera, which is basically just a freebie in any deck that might want it — it's not like control decks wanted to run creatures *anyway*. Then there's Lurrus, whose restriction is something that *most* aggressive decks in the format can meet with *minimal* tweaks, and which lets you staple a pretty good package for grinding into the late game onto a deck by including a playset of Baubles. That's a *stupidly* good deal, and you'd be silly to leave that on the table.


PartyPay

Kaheera homogenized deck building a bit, because she's in there, you never see Snip Snap in UW Control anymore.


CatatonicWalrus

You don't see Snapcaster mage anymore because UW wants to run chalice. Without cheap 1 mana spells to flashback, you're not incentivized to run snap because it's becoming a more cumbersome mana investment for your 2 for 1s. You're better off getting your card advantage out of an actual 4 mana spell at that point i.e. fact or fiction, now memory deluge, and sometimes Jace. Or, because UW plays a set of t3feri, you should be running permanents you can bounce for card advantage, like spreading seas. Kaheera then becomes free if you're not going to run Snapcaster. If you were to "ban" companion, UW would not suddenly go back to snapcasters. Unless, of course, banning companion led to more diversity in mana values being played. Because then that would incentivize UW to stop playing chalice and go back to playing an abundance of 1 mana spells to flashback with snap. TL;DR: You've got it backwards. Kaheera crept in because snap doesn't jive with the rest of the way UW is constructed.


TheRecovery

The loss of snap came before the addition of chalice if I recall correctly, but I may be misremembering.


CatatonicWalrus

Nope. Snaps were in the miracle builds at the start of the MH2 format, which quickly died alongside the very bad saga builds that also ran a few snapcasters. When chalice was added, snaps left the list. In the pre-MH2 meta, esper was on 4x snapcaster mage. As long as you have cheap 1 mana spells, snapcaster is still good. Those esper lists used snap super well and I imagine they could be good again at some point. With the way the modern meta is developing, UW is actually moving away from chalices as well. So it's very possible you could see snaps return to the list. Wafo-Tapa was actually talking a bit about it on his first stream because someone asked why he was only running one chalice in his list from the past weekend. With control becoming more popular, chalice is becoming weaker in the main deck. It may cycle to just being a sideboard card again for a bit, meaning there could be room for snaps and cheaper spells like consider or opt again. Another thing to consider is that blue moon is still on 4 snaps. They don't run chalice, they run consider, scour, and lightning bolt so they have that density of 1 mana spells. They're much more interested in always playing at instant speed as well, which also makes it a really good home for snapcaster. UW has always been a weaker snapcaster mage shell than UR as UW almost always leans more towards tap out control rather than draw go these days.


forchetta_rotta

Only one out of the top 8 decks runs [[Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer]], i can’t understand why people still claim for it to be banned


DailyAvinan

It's an expensive midrange card, people wanting it banned is basically a rite of passage at this point. I'd be appalled to see monkey go. Imagine banning a creature that can't attack past a Memnite lol


FarrelMFajar

People want it banned because they can't afford it.


VoidZero52

Can confirm, I only want it gone so I don’t have to buy it.


1B5ExerciseBook

I guess it's all the chalice etc that people are running to counter it.


VelikiUcitelj

People are not running chalice to counter Ragavan. They're running chalice to counter Hammertime and Cascade decks.


Saxophobia1275

Ragavan is fine to bad after turn 2 but 90% of the reason to run it is to get it down T1 which chalice doesn’t prevent.


MTGCardFetcher

[Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/9/a9738cda-adb1-47fb-9f4c-ecd930228c4d.jpg?1627449092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ragavan%2C%20Nimble%20Pilferer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/138/ragavan-nimble-pilferer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9738cda-adb1-47fb-9f4c-ecd930228c4d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


kirdquake

\[\[Restoration Angel\]\] + \[\[Wall of Omens\]\] winning the tournament... what year is it?


Mastagamer564

2014. All we need now is splinter twin and threads of disloyalty


MTGCardFetcher

[Restoration Angel](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/d/3dbdd0bc-92d7-49ae-b7fc-b2d1f0670bd8.jpg?1631234153) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Restoration%20Angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/31/restoration-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3dbdd0bc-92d7-49ae-b7fc-b2d1f0670bd8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wall of Omens](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/5/2561dc8e-1ea6-43f3-8cf1-afd7ec9a2191.jpg?1631234241) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wall%20of%20Omens) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/35/wall-of-omens?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2561dc8e-1ea6-43f3-8cf1-afd7ec9a2191?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


TemurTron

Out of all the companions, the only one that’s ever truly bothered me post-errata is Yorion. Not because the decks are extraordinarily dominant or hard to beat, but because 80 card decks are so damn ugly. 4C Ephemerate sounds like such an awesome deck until you realize it’s a Yorion pile filled with a bunch of mush and like 42 lands. I’ll put my Boomer hat on and argue that Magic constructed decks are meant to be 60 cards and should stay that way. Consistency should matter more than having access to a “free” enormous blink bird, it’s annoying that it isn’t. And again, kanister’s build is a really cool concept and I think it seems fun to play with and against. Just from reading it I go from RED HOT HYPE to “Ew it’s a Yorion deck.” And don’t even get me started on those 80 card creature toolbox piles with like 24 different 1 ofs…


CapableBrief

80 card piles usually follow the same principles as 60 card piles and just end up with slightly lesser card quality (if they go for redundancy) or a higher amount of options (if they go for toolbox). In general I don't think these decks are really that much less consistent if you look at the broader strategy rather than the specific lines of plays since they rely more on patterns than specific 2 card interactions. Fwiw I'll forgive the 80 card bird long before I accept shuffling 99 singletons anyways. My hands aren't big enough and those decklists are a real travesty to look at. You wanna know whats the absolute worst though? Three color piles that also run playsets of Tron lands 😬


Aunvilgod

dont call it options, its mostly just increased variance.


CapableBrief

Uh... You're just wrong. Sorry.


CapableBrief

To be clear to anyone who thinks I'm wrong: if you are keeping the same proportion of 1-ofs in your 60 and 80 card decks the variance comes to about the same but you have more options to pick from when you resolve tutor effects. It's just a fact.


DailyAvinan

I think it's cool that people have the option of choosing 60 card consistency vs 80 card value. I also think it's cool seeing how those decks try to reduce the inherent variance that comes with 20 extra cards. I used to think companions were bad for the game but I've come around completely. I like that flooding out doesn't always = a loss with a companion. And I like that they encourage interaction. I've grown to really quite enjoy them. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.


slipman_

hahaha love the concept of yorion builds, hate the amount of cards that i need to shuffle xD


lichtblaufuchs

Hey, it's (barely) worth it!


glium

It's funny you speak of it being like 42 lands when it only runs 28, which is surprisingly low in my opinion


djeiwnbdhxixlnebejei

With the toolbox decks, I don’t think going to 80 hurts consistency that much, because they play so many tutors that their ratio of good draws goes up and the 80 card count reduces the chance of drawing the actual copies of the singleton creatures themselves


lichtblaufuchs

I mean, aesthetics is one thing, but I'll say, I find it beautiful that magic always allowed larger deck sizes. Deckbuilding gets really fun. Us Yorion players put ourselves at a disadvantage running 80 cards, be happy and crush us with your consistent 60 right? By the way, iirc Kanister played 28 lands. Now for my unpoular take of the day: While I wish they had never introduced Companion, now that they did, I want more Companions! Give us weak (!) payoffs for a bunch of different strategies.


missed-input

Have to admit as this format develops it appears to get more diverse and healthier. I really thought murktide/darcy/ragavan piles were eventually just gunna be the dominant force like whats happening in legacy. I was wrong and am so glad i was.


DailyAvinan

Yeah I'm pretty happy with the format as well. Lots of decks to choose from, nothing is tier 0, and sideboarding is pretty relevant.


Res_Novae

All they need to do is get rid of t3feri and we will see the golden age of modern.


fay-jai

If t3feri is banned though, I feel like living end / temur footfalls would be so much more prevalent right? I don’t like t3feri either but we might have to live with it to keep other things in check?


Res_Novae

There’s chalice, void mirror, roiling vortex and a bunch of other stuff you can play thats good vs rhinos. Grave hate already wrecks living end. T3feri makes it stupid to play any control deck other than UWx, is miserable to play against and makes the game less interactive, and is currently played as a 3-4 of in 20%+ of modern decks. It’s been banned in all formats younger than modern and has been plaguing magic for over 2 years. Its time it goes…


calmingRespirator

Does t3feri really do all that much against those decks? The cascade decks are all on Force of Negation, and are trying to cascade on turn 3, so before t3feri on the play, and sometimes even before it on the draw thanks to gemstone caverns. I’m sure he does help those matchups some, but I can’t imagine he’s really keeping them in check.


funeral13twilight

Every deck can sideboard chalice for this match if they wish. Lots of other answers depending on the deck you play. We don't need t3feri.


kmoneyrecords

It's weird, a year ago I'd agree with you hands down, but now I think 3feri is a necessary enforcer against stuff that is way more busted than 3feri. I think we'd see a bunch of format imbalance and necessary bans if we banned teferi.


dabiggestb

We are pretty much in a counterspell, ragavan, urzas saga, or cascade mechanic meta. Almost every top deck fits into one of those 4 categories which imo is kind of diverse but not at the same time. It's a weird feeling because I see different types of counterspell decks or different types of saga decks but then again they all feel very similar on some level. I haven't quite figured out how i feel about it but my initial feeling is not happy about it. It just makes games feel more predictable and less interesting in my opinion.


Saxophobia1275

That’s like saying legacy is all just force of will and non force of will decks, it’s overly reductionist. Just because there are cards in common doesn’t mean those decks are anywhere close. There’s counterspell in murktide, jeskai stoneblade, UW control, some shadow builds, and more. How can you lump all of those decks together? Hell only *one* of your listed cards is in the top ten most played cards in this very challenge, and that one is roughly a quarter of the field and 1 of the top 8. I can understand being frustrated that a low of the decks use new cards, I’m not exactly a huge fan of WotC soft rotating modern with the MH sets. But the format is just objectively more diverse and healthy than it’s been in years.


heavydirtysoul318

I am super happy temur control is a thing but dang it guy, use panglacial wurm Good job by everyone and thank you for posting and putting in the work


Judge_Ehud

What am I missing, why panglacial wurm?


Broken_Emphasis

Once you've hit the late game, it turns your fetches into 9/7 tramplers? Maybe?


levetzki

Because who doesn't love the wurm?


fay-jai

This list looks sweet! I’m curious if the main draw to green is for ice-fang? Def want to try it out!


WateryGravy

It's because I haven't been super happy with the UR Murktide match up and IFC feels stronger than a lot of the traditional Blue Moon filler cards like Fire // Ice and whatnot. I only played UR Murk once yesterday but I beat it! I was also inspired by thepensword's zero Blood Moon list with four Spreading Seas in the 75. The deck played well but I only put it together like five minutes before the challenge, sideboard could be a little more thought out.


1B5ExerciseBook

Do you think Dead//Gone is worth it so far?


WateryGravy

Yeah, I like it. It's just bolt #5 that helps with Ragavan or DRC turn one, but I also like that it bounces Murktides. I did lose one match in part because it's bugged online, you can't flash it back with Snap, I got my entry back tho!!!


fay-jai

I heard it’s bugged with Fire / Ice too :(


slipman_

from 32, 20 decks run companion, this is pretty close to pre errata numbers. How many its to many?


kirdquake

WotC, lead us not into temptation (on playing Companions ourselves), but deliver us from evil.


HosserPower

Given that WOTC created the companion mechanic to be…uh…played, I’d say that unless one specific companion is being used in the majority of decks, there isn’t TOO many. Lurrus was arguably approaching that but I don’t think it is anymore.


kirdquake

The numbers speak otherwise: lurrus is constantly ~24% of the metagame. And given that you dont need to draw it, its "effective percentage" is even higher


EvenDeeper

My man Guiyote again doing well in Challenges with his Zoo Domain list. This is like the fourth time I saw him here in the past 5-6 weeks. I played the list twice at FNM-level and it was a blast, though I'm a bit sad the maindeck Rancor gave way for Seal of Fire.


AAABattery03

What is Kani’s reasoning behind 4C Ephemerate being better than Elementals? I figured Elementals’ access to Risen Reef was important in mitigating the card disadvantage of running the free spells. Is Iteration plus all the extra draw targets for Ephemerate enough to make up for that?


7he5haman

E-Witt also helps, and the ability to just take all the turns with it plus Ephem plus Warp is nice Very tempted to try this deck out!


DressedSpring1

I haven’t played the elementals deck (though I’ve played against it a fair bit) but I have been playing his yorion list. If I had to guess, I think the difference makers are really going to be coatl and yorion itself. Coatl genuinely is that good as a flash cantripping 1/1 that often times gets death touch and always having access to yorion gives you a super powerful late game that you can consistently deploy. Once the game stalls out a bit you can really close the door with a big flying threat that usually draws cards or reactivates fury/solitude or does both. I think I the deck is pretty great and you’re keeping most of the powerful elemental stuff while getting a ton of upside from coatl and yorion.


AAABattery03

I will try this deck out over the next week or so. I’m not sold on Coatl being better than Reef, still feels like it’s worse but is “made up for” by Iteration. Yorion is a GOOD point though. It is a much better finisher *and* card advantage engine than Kaheera, and even its worst case (pitching to Solitude/FoN) is better than Kaheera’s worst case (Solitude/Endurance).


internofdoom33

Seems like it took until now for Burn to really penetrate into MTGO results, but it's been in a good place since MH2 dropped. It's not without its bad matchups (anything with Omnath and Urza's Saga able to get an early Shadowspear) but direct hate is rare and [[Roiling Vortex]] made challenging matchups far easier to deal with. Not my favorite deck to play since so often you feel like an NPC with a very linear game plan, but also a good competitive choice right now if you just want to win and preserve some brain power over a seven round affair.


MTGCardFetcher

[Roiling Vortex](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/b/0b057eb7-8439-4d26-89df-c345ab2773e1.jpg?1604197684) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roiling%20Vortex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/156/roiling-vortex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b057eb7-8439-4d26-89df-c345ab2773e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


luca_boring

Any burn player that could explain the pros and cons in Sanctifier against Kor Firewalker in the side?


Lucivarian

They're not really there for the same purpose. Firewalker is there for the mirror, where as Sanctifier is there for the B/R and Murktide (or any graveyard decks) lists to remove graveyards and make delirium harder to achieve.


luca_boring

Looking at the 3th and 5th they do take the same spot in the side, that's why I was curious about which to choose. I guess it says more about what matchup either pilot prefers to edge against.


Lucivarian

I should have said, they often do take the same slots, but they're not there for the same thing. Your thought is probably correct, it depends on what the pilot wants. Personally, I thin Rest in Peace is just better against graveyard decks.


Bayside19

Sanctifier "doubles" as a threat though. I use quotes there because it's not Rest in Peace but it provides similar effects on a 2/2 pro red/black body which helps advance the aggro board state of Burn.


netsrak

I think the big thing is that Sanctifier can be impossible to kill outside of Pyrite Spellbomb for some of the decks that it hoses.


frakom94

Hi, frakom from mtgo here. I started playing sanctifier over kor because it is much "wider" card. While kor is good only in the mirror which is not that popular, sanctifier is hosing all the ragavan/DRC decks (realistically only murktide can get delirium with it on board) but it is also good against random grave decks (yawg, jund sac, dredge and so on). And comparing en-vec versus other grave hate (rip for example) greatest advantage is that while it is worse grave hate it can attack and block (obvious but worth mentioning). If you have more questions feel free to write here or DM me on twitter (https://twitter.com/Frakom94)


luca_boring

Thanks for the answer, and congrats for the third place!


grixxis

Sanctifier can function as grave hate while still being okay in the mirror since the protection is still relevant; also fits the criteria of "every card should deal damage" when compared to other grave hate. It's mostly just a question of maximizing sideboard efficiency vs being better in the mirror.


GuyGuyerson90

Sanctifier is a total non-bo with lurrus, so I dont run it and stick to kor firewalker. If I wasnt running lurrus then id def consider it as it seems strong when its not wrecking your own GY


Backseat_Critic

I’ve been running uw and uwr control decks with yorion on arena historic since ikoria release day. I lose to not finding a sweeper on turn four sometimes, but I actually found the 80 cards to have a benefit not just a hindrance. I can play more copies of each half of my decks and more card draw (the thirst spells are 3cmc brainstorm/fetch). If I can survive to turn 6, my hand will only be relevant spells. In a control match, I can run my 60 card opponent out of counters. I don’t increase the number of threats, so I get a better ratio of threats/answers without running a very small absolute number. I’ve been jamming and brewing just yorion control decks for a year and a half. 80 cards is more pro/con than all con. And when you get to use yorion, you really blow out your opponent. Curryvore has been working in this space and it looks like kanister is realizing the potential.


Living_End

Congrats to Heibing on their top finish with Living End. Another list without grief. I felt like grief was acting as training wheels for the deck while the meta settles and people got accustom to the new styles for the deck. I hope we see more people explore Griefless Living End lists. Again congrats and best of luck piloting Living End in the future.


Dr_Lolant

What are the cons of grief in the deck ?


Living_End

It requires you to play a ton extra cards you just can’t cast. It messes up the mana a bit requiring you to play sunken ruin or some number of ub lands. Playing without grief also lets you play more powerful creatures than architects of will. Also it feels like the other free spells that could be played (endurance, FoN, fury, and subtlety) have a higher ceiling for the deck.


Turbocloud

But Grief does have a lot of upsides - you can not only check if the coast is clear to resolve living end, but in combination with architect you can also deprive them of any way to answer your current board - it also solidifies the win. But its really hard to determine if that is worth sacrificing constancy of the manabase and to assess the opportunity cost of those slots.


Living_End

I agree it’s a hard call to make. In practice though I have a much higher win rate with griefless builds that those that contain it. But just 1 person saying this might not be the best sample size, I could just be bad at playing grief myself. I do feel I board out grief a significant amount of game 2/3’s I play vs decks that aren’t blue.


Turbocloud

If you're critically examining yourself and consider your own skill as a factor, it's likely that you'd navigate the deck, even if still suboptimally, well above the average player. Winrate sure is the best metric for measure, however getting to a statistically significant amount of games for each matchups to actually use and compare that data is pretty hard if you've got no way of crowdsourcing it. So we're mostly relying a lot on impressions to determine how good a deck really is because of that - a deck can't be too good if too many matchups feel like uphill battles. Given that i'm not a very active LE player and given your history i'd value your opinion on that matter much higher than mine, i honestly don't know which version is better, i would just add the remark that Shadow used to play Street Wraith, which was boarded out literally half of the time, but not including it in the maindeck hurt it's ability to go aggressive siginificantly. Similar to that, Grief can increase the ability to fight through interaction, but it may not be needed in every MU, so boarding it out most of the time may be correct. So the question is most likely if there are matchups where you definitely need grief in order to win and no other card can do what its doing - if that's not the case, then the card can't be considered essential in a way SW was for GDS and it'd also think that it is right to not dilute your deck for it.


Living_End

There is no match up where you need specifically grief to win, there is a free interactive spell for each type of hate you might encounter. Grief is just the most general hate because it hits everything. I don’t have a statistically significant amount of games but i have over 500 games with each deck and the win rate aren’t similar. I have ~54% wr with grief and ~70% with griefless. I’m not sure grief is similar to the wraith analogy because the living end combo isn’t dependent on anything grief does. And cutting grief actually improves the decks plan B game plan significantly (casting big boys).


Turbocloud

Well, using the formula for sufficient sample size for infinite populations, 364 is .95 percentile, 471 is .97 with a 5% Margin for Error - so you can be pretty sure that the Winrate is rather accurate for the meta you've faced. Issue is just that since you'll likely didn't play against the same set of decks, it's technically not comparable. But still, there might be your answer: Grief seems clearly not worth it. A possible explanation: The whole grief-thing could also be an information cascade where players believe its the better version because it placed well early on, then more picked it up because of that which in turn lead an increase on winning lists based on meta share which lead to more players believing it to be the better version... As you've said it yourself: You don't think SW-analogy applies here and while your results are at disparity with general perception, it may simply be that general perception warped the tournament results and you're right here.


Living_End

So I’m not a huge stats person (took stats 1 & 2 in college) I thought for something to be statistically significant it needs a sample size of at least 1000?


Turbocloud

That depends on percentile, margin of error and prevalence, see Formula of Godden. Statiscally significant is also up for definition, but .95 confidence and 5% margin of error is pretty common to work with, so 364 would be the magic number. The issue is - since there is not "the meta" you'd realistically need those amount of matches for each matchup for viable conclusions about each matchup, from which you get to the expected MWR for a meta, that's why i said you technically can't use it for comparison. But when you work under the assumption that all matchups are equally to begin with... ... and that's why you should not only look at statistics, but at how they were build.


VelikiUcitelj

Really cool to see Jund Sac appear again. I've been playing it in paper and it feels very powerful. I imagine it might be a little hard to pilot online so people avoid it.


Karimada

Yeah, i also like the deck and play it in paper. Currently i am trying to update the list, but its hard.


brianandstuff

Hey amulet in the top 8! I haven't seen an amulet list in a while so forgive me if this is the new stock, but what's goin on with those Karns in the md?


VoidZero52

Karnmulet was quite possibly the best build for a while in late 2019 and early 2020 (it got a lot worse after they banned Microsoft lettuce) and though it spent a while not being considered the “best” list it is still very solid. I’m still partial to the through the breach plus emrakul package myself, but there are lots of flavors of amulet that shine at different moments.


YungJanxi

Is Welding Jar actually worth running 2 of in affinity..


TalkingFrenchFry

Its just another 9 cost artifact to run in order to boost your constructs. Sometimes, dumping your hand to pump a construct or a cranial plating can speed your clock but a whole turn


YungJanxi

Agree but there’s so much true removal now, I feel it’s become far more rare to need to regenerate


C10ckwork

A Belcher deck? I'm surprised. Also kind of happy mill didn't get any representation, may it forever be the tournament boogyman...


stillenacht

What on earth are those Hangarback Walkers in the sideboard for?


kmoneyrecords

Can't speak for the pilot but Hangarback even on 2 is a nightmare for any fair midrange deck running 1-for-1 removal like Jund.


TheBlueSuperNova

No tron :(


Skit3

Oh look, affinify


YungJanxi

Whatcha tryna say boss>;(