T O P

Urzas saga and the return of affinity is good for the format

Urzas saga and the return of affinity is good for the format

TheXXVth

As a lifelong burn player Im more mad about \[\[Blossoming Calm\]\] than anything else. Because reddit: Im not actually mad.


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

I'm convinced nuclear apocalypse could happen and there would still be a dude somewhere lightning bolting face.


EarthtoGeoff

I keep Modern Burn in my apocalypse bug-out bag just in case this very scenario occurs.


You_Are_All_Diseased

That’s a good meta call because Tron players are more resilient than cockroaches and are sure to survive the apocalypse just like they’ll survive this additional round of tron hate.


GeRobb

I, for one, welcome our new Tron Overlords.


thephotoman

Modern. Legacy. Pauper. I need to add Pioneer. I don't have the money for Standard. It's ALL THERE. With black border Blitzschlagen. And Legacy Fetchland Burn (a spicy choice, to be sure, but I have the cards because of the sheer amount of KTK and MH3 I drafted). If it comes to it, I will be there. I may even jam bolts into Lands somehow. I hope there's less reanimator then. D&T will be a thing, but I can handle D&T. I'll just switch to my *other* Legacy deck.


AigisAegis

It just feels so damn good. You ever go turn one basic Mountain into Lava Spike? It's the most satisfying play in Magic. No ambiguity, no sandbagging, just put you to 17 pass turn. Beautiful.


TheRealMusicopia

That better be an Arabian Nights mountain! Lol jk ofc, gurus are acceptable too. Its about sending a message.


AigisAegis

My secret is that I don't use any fancy Mountain at all, I use [the Jonas De Ro Mountain from DOM](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/large/front/6/2/621aa8e1-aebf-4eea-beb5-7fb47700a87a.jpg?1562736667) and the message is that I'm enough of a chad to run the prettiest Mountain in the game even if it's a bulk basic (I'm also partial to the [Rob Alexander Mountain from ODY](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/large/front/0/2/025e57e4-d088-4ad9-b872-cba327f63e9c.jpg?1562895428) for all you boomers out there)


JohnnyTanker

I see that you are also a classy MTG player. I tip my hat to you.


TheRealMusicopia

Nice that is a very pretty mountain. I use Unglued mountains for modern and for legacy I use Odyssey #344


the_cardfather

It's Gen X thank you very much, but those are good ones. If I'm not using Portal 1, I'm very partial to mountain 244-C from zendikar (the circle Arch)


Forlorn_Woodsman

No everyone before zoomers is boomers now


the_cardfather

How to trigger every Millennial everywhere. Lol At least I have grey hair.


Bolt-the-bird

I have a foil odyssey mountain with rob’s signature on it for that very reason.


Korlus

I am quite partial to the [John Avon Panoramic Mountains](https://scryfall.com/search?q=mountain+e%3Achk+unique%3Aprints&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) from Kamigawa.


AigisAegis

Oh yeah those rule, I ran 299 in Grishoalbrand back when that was playable


Gracket_Material

I keep a Crt television, Nintendo GameCube, 2 Controllers and a copy of Super Smash Brothers Melee in the trunk of my bug-out car


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

That's beautiful man


conqueringdragon

As it should be.


jeef16

traditional burn just cant push through like prowess can these days


andergriff

People are still gonna play it


AigisAegis

Can confirm. If a Red aggro deck doesn't play Lava Spike then I want no part in it Edit: Or Chain Lightning. Legacy Burn is valid


thephotoman

Sometimes, you just want to cast one spell seven times and call it good.


netsrak

It still shows up in pretty much every weekend challenge.


lovecraft_lover

That’s why we needed chain lightning or fireblast…


somefish254

Oh cool card. It’s what Healing Salve should have been. Not actually but yeah this seems good


MTGCardFetcher

[Blossoming Calm](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/9/792610fd-736d-43b0-8899-dbb5accddca0.jpg?1622569054) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blossoming%20Calm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/7/blossoming-calm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/792610fd-736d-43b0-8899-dbb5accddca0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


thephotoman

Me, a guy with foreign black border Bolts for his non-burn decks, too: "fuck any card that gives my opponents life." Even if those cards are in *my* deck. I'm looking at you, Grove of the Burnwillows. Stop putting them out of Marit Lage range--it's making playing Legacy Lands harder. (Yes. I've got a couple FBB Foudres in there. And there's the Blitzschlagen I have in my Burn Shell.)


X13thangelx

Same but as a storm player.


systematicpro

i looked at this and just thought "meh bad veil" but jesus that's actually super back breaking for a burn player O_O 1 mana counter at least 7 dmg is insane


Basedbsdevs

I feel really bad that affinity players think this is about them.


ProfessorFreaktree

Just like mox opal, they're the innocent bystanders that get obliterated in the crossfire


bamzing

I could not have said it better.


_Drumheller_

The only problem I see with Urzas Saga is that it could be so good that all kind of decks alter their lists to take advantage of it which was one of the things that led to Uro's ban. Also WotC just banned two value lands so it seems odd to me for them releasing another very good one. I know sets are made years in advance but still. I definitely wouldn't buy Urzas Saga at its current price that for sure, not only I exept a drop in price once packs are opened but also just to be on the safe side incase it gets banned at a later point. Never played Affinity and i'm always a fan of new decks in the format or old ones returning however a card warping all kinds of decklists to take advantage of it is often an indication that it's to good. In the end only time will tell how Urzas Saga turns out and I don't expect a ban anytime soon even when it turns out format warping because of selling packs but could see one at a later point if it's indeed to strong. One positive thing tho we have to acknowledge is that it might drive down the prices of some of the other cards.


mlwspace2005

my suspicion is that its just the new hotness that everyone is trying to shoehorn in everywhere. I dont actually think its all that good in the various midrange/control lists its being stuck into, I think other players are just unprepared to deal with it and do not have access to tall the cards from MH2 anyways.


fireslinger4

This is the truth though. Got into it with somebody on Discord because somebody made a UW Control list taking advantage of the Saga... deck was actually not that great but he went like 7-1 in the Modern Challenge at the point of discussion and the guy was adamant that this was the new build of UW because of one decent result. Fat chance.


ElongatedPenguin

RemindMe! 1 month . I don't think you're wrong, but itll be funny one way or the other


netsrak

I mean 7-1 is nothing to sneeze at, but more results are certainly required to see if that is the thing to do.


Ericar1234567894

This precisely! Affinity is great for the format, but I'm not sure Urza's saga is!


KarnSilverArchon

There is hate for Urza’s Saga. It is unplayable against [[Blood Moon]] more so than any other nonbasic land, as it actually dies on etb so you don’t even get to use it for mana. It also is hit by enchantment removal, so [[Force of Vigor]] and [[Disenchant]] hit it. It also cares about artifacts, so there’s a good chance cards like [[Abrade]] hurt it. It also searches for cards, which means [[Leonin Arbiter]] and [[Aven Mindcensor]] hurt against it a lot. And finally, [[Obsidian Charmaw]] , [[Pillage]] , and [[Vindicate]] destroy it and [[Teferi, Time Raveler]] can bounce it. There are answers. Its for sure a strong card, but I hesitate to rush to conclusions so early.


thehaarpist

Does [[Alpine Moon]] stop it? It loses land types so I think it loses saga which means it doesn't die, right?


KarnSilverArchon

Alpine Moon will actually work. It will make it lose all land types and abilities, but it will NOT lose the Saga typing as that is an enchantment typing. Due to the Saga typing having the innate ruling that it is sacrificed after the last ability, it will blow up for the same reason Blood Moon blows it up.


EternalPhi

>Due to the Saga typing having the innate ruling that it is sacrificed after the last ability It's a state-based check to see if the number of lore counters is equal to or greater than the number of it's final chapter ability. Since it has 0 chapter abilities, any number of lore counters (such as when first played or at any point while it's on the battlefield when blood moon is played) exceeds the number of chapter abilities it has, so it's sacrificed as a state-based action. >714.4. If the number of lore counters on a Saga permanent is greater than or equal to its final chapter number, and it isn’t the source of a chapter ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that Saga’s controller sacrifices it. This state-based action doesn’t use the stack.


somefish254

Thanks for explaining the interaction. I didn’t understand why Blood Moon was so good against this at first.


thehaarpist

Oh, nice. Doesn't really make an impact in the deck I usually play, but always nice to have other options


micksp

yes


MTGCardFetcher

[Alpine Moon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/4/2435c810-2baf-4e3b-80ce-542b94694901.jpg?1584675370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alpine%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/128/alpine-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2435c810-2baf-4e3b-80ce-542b94694901?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


sangrelatto

I'm confused here, how exactly does Blood Moon interact with Urza's Saga? Seems a bit over my head. Edited: Saw your explanation on another comment. Thanks.


_Drumheller_

Definitely and without question affinity decks can be heavily hated on with dedicating some sideboard slots to it. The biggest concern I have seen about sideboarding in hatepieces is that if the card turns out to be super good and many decks include it in their lists without playing other artifacts/enchantments your hate pieces often can end up as dead cards in your hand. Not saying it can't be hated out but i think people got a good point and it's a legitimate concern.


KarnSilverArchon

I think people saw the one WU Control deck use it, which is an unordinary deck to use it, and got scared. Reasonably so, but the example people give on how good it is is that it killed an Amulet Titan player on T6 after chaining together Sagas, which feels more like the Amulet Titan player was drawing awful than Saga carrying the game.


CrazyMike366

There have definitely been UW control decks with a [[Trinket Mage]] package in the past. Urza's Saga feels like a strict upgrade there, so it makes sense. I assume it'll just become another package that any deck can jam when it has slots to spare. And that's the issue that may kill it - artifact and/or land packages that provide a ton of extra value at the cost of just a few slots have had a historical tendency to get banned. E.g. the Karn + Lattice wishboard, Field of the Dead, Astrolabe, Top, etc.


MTGCardFetcher

[Trinket Mage](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/a/9a7800f7-95cd-4f5c-b054-4afad8924367.jpg?1561759331) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trinket%20Mage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddu/41/trinket-mage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a7800f7-95cd-4f5c-b054-4afad8924367?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


[deleted]

[удалено]


KarnSilverArchon

Blood Moon doesn’t remove its enchantment typing, meaning it becomes a Saga with 0 chapters. Sagas are sacrificed upon reaching their final chapter, and so it reaches Chapter 0 and dies.


[deleted]

[удалено]


fnxMagic

Couldn't be, as there exist Sagas with 4 chapters.


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [Blood Moon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Force of Vigor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/1/017c415b-d635-43c6-92b8-8c95d1c4ff8d.jpg?1562202072) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force%20of%20Vigor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/164/force-of-vigor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/017c415b-d635-43c6-92b8-8c95d1c4ff8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Disenchant](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/b/2ba38105-bada-449a-ab2f-3d6db2764a06.jpg?1610075029) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Disenchant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/372/disenchant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ba38105-bada-449a-ab2f-3d6db2764a06?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Abrade](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/2/d27d5b87-6dfc-4b99-822b-f6f8489ad275.jpg?1608912224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Abrade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/410/abrade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d27d5b87-6dfc-4b99-822b-f6f8489ad275?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Leonin Arbiter](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/5/85431851-36c6-4515-8000-d0b9a268b4c9.jpg?1562614989) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leonin%20Arbiter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/64/leonin-arbiter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/85431851-36c6-4515-8000-d0b9a268b4c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Aven Mindcensor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/6/76cf42b4-f767-48b7-b38c-b98306909f06.jpg?1619392559) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aven%20Mindcensor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/5/aven-mindcensor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76cf42b4-f767-48b7-b38c-b98306909f06?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Obsidian Charmaw](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/e/ee6d08be-a6fc-44a5-932d-b6a8705534c0.jpg?1622389751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obsidian%20Charmaw) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/137/obsidian-charmaw?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ee6d08be-a6fc-44a5-932d-b6a8705534c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pillage](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/d/bdd06d55-a40f-4b0e-905b-3cd0ce12eb82.jpg?1562201923) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pillage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/139/pillage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bdd06d55-a40f-4b0e-905b-3cd0ce12eb82?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vindicate](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/8/683c4e13-525c-45c9-8832-bfe67965c34e.jpg?1622657657) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vindicate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/294/vindicate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/683c4e13-525c-45c9-8832-bfe67965c34e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Teferi, Time Raveler](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/c/5cb76266-ae50-4bbc-8f96-d98f309b02d3.jpg?1613386796) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%2C%20Time%20Raveler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/221/teferi-time-raveler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cb76266-ae50-4bbc-8f96-d98f309b02d3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

I think people haven't really thought about how to attack Urza's saga yet. It's an enchantment land that can't tap for mana until you resolve a trigger. You can force of vigor it before they ever tap it.


bigbobo33

[[Blood Moon]] and [[Spreading Seas]] blow them up too. I think the format will reign them in when it adjusts.


vezwyx

Why are people saying these cards blow up the land? You're turning it into another land type, I don't see how that interacts with Urza's Saga to land it in the graveyard


Reply_or_Not

It’s a saga, sagas die when they have equal (or more) time counters than chapters. Blood moon and dreading seas set the chapters to zero So the saga dies immediately to state based actions


bigbobo33

It's some complex thing involving layers. Someone with better rules knowledge will probably chime in but it has something to do with the saga having 0 chapters. It's an obscure interaction that is definitely counter-intuitive. EDIT: [Here's the rules manager explaining it](https://twitter.com/Dunkatog/status/1390760150877704192)


Atheist-Gods

It has nothing to do with layers. It's simply that setting a land subtype doesn't change it's non-land types or subtypes.


MTGCardFetcher

[Blood Moon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Spreading Seas](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/7/37454c1c-4098-4ac2-884e-3f65f1384bdb.jpg?1562611277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spreading%20Seas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/70/spreading-seas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37454c1c-4098-4ac2-884e-3f65f1384bdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


VoidZero52

That is such a niche play though, this one microscopic downside hardly makes up for the power and versatility of this card.


RareKazDewMelon

This is just another angle of attack that increases the relative value of packing hate cards against it, though. It may be a niche play, but it feels like it would turn any game into a free roll if it happened. Both Nature's Claim and Wear // Tear are premier noncreature sideboard hate. Hell, even UR prowess lists run 1-2 [[Stern Dismissal]] for ~~whatever reason~~ Heliod that they could swap for the Vapor Snags to the mainboard for a similar effect at card disadvantage.


MTGCardFetcher

[Stern Dismissal](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/a/0aec4d0f-ba1e-45f8-9764-9bcc3fa50e51.jpg?1581479548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stern%20Dismissal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/68/stern-dismissal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0aec4d0f-ba1e-45f8-9764-9bcc3fa50e51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


VoidZero52

Hm, I hadn’t seen stern dismissal yet. A little bit less damage, but can buy you a whole turn against heliod. Pseudo land destruction against Urza’s saga isn’t bad!


itsnotokayokay

> for whatever reason For Heliod, I'm sure.


RareKazDewMelon

D'oh. Good call, brain fart.


tankmayvin

Enchantment removal hasn't really been a hot commodity for SB slots in modern for a long time coming into MH2. Green has a bunch of dual use artifact/enchantment removal cards that can see more play, including FOV. If gy food decks are also a thing, leyline of the void and rip see more play, as does the counter tech. Saga is a LOT of value strapped to one card so we will have to see.


jeef16

i think enchantment hate has seen significantly more play ever since hammer time and heliod company become popular


tankmayvin

Really? Other than G decks running a couple of cards (as they always have) artifact and dual use stuff has been pretty light. Very different from when KCI, Urza, Lantern, Affinity, HS were represented in the meta. When was the last time you even saw a list with stony silence? Sure, deicide sees play but that's fairly narrow.


jeef16

why are you talking about stony silence when I said enchantment removal? any deck that has access to G and W are playing efficient enchantment removal. There are a lot of decks in the meta with access to both.


tankmayvin

Because the amount of dual-use stuff seeing play is a direct reflection of the meta share of artifact strategies, which is also reflected by how much you see stony and similar. You keep saying you're seeing lots of dual-use and enchantment removal. But this just isn't true looking at list aggregators. There are tons and tons of winning lists running straight up zero artifact and enchantment hate, like actual 0/15 slots. That is bound to change with affinity coming back.


jeef16

\>Because the amount of dual-use stuff seeing play is a direct reflection of the meta share of artifact strategies, which is also reflected by how much you see stony and similar. we're talking about enchantment removal, idk what crack you're smoking my guy. I never said I see lots of dual use removal because most dual use removal either 1) destroys 2) is potentially slow. Unravel the Aether/Deglamer can still lose to heliod company t2 because its 2 cmc. thats why you see mystic repeal being the popular choice for a deck that has access to green


tankmayvin

Mystic repeal is great, but also a relatively new card and its certainly not heavily played in modern if you include pre heliod period. The fact that repeal is played over natural state is purely a feature of the fact that recent modern is warped exclusively by heliod as the only real enchantment to worry about since heliod was printed. I have no idea what you're smoking but Unravel, Natural state, Natures claim have all seen heavy modern play in the pre opal ban days and simply aren't seeing play up until MH2 because there just hasn't been much worth killing because nobody played artifacts and there are already few modern relevant enchantments. Like I said, plenty of G decks don't even run any leading up until now.


djdanlib

There's also that Bogles deck that's showed up at the FLGS occasionally for a few years.


ary31415

> laughs in maindeck [[esper charm]]


tankmayvin

I will be more than happy if you want to T3 or later my saga for 3 mana. That's a total net win for affinity.


Gruulsmasher

The biggest potential problem of Saga is if it’s so good that everyone both runs it and hate for it. That’s a potentially very homogenizing meta.


TheTransCleric

Yeah I watched a Titan deck win through meddling mage on dryad Titan and Azusa just on the back of chaining urza’s saga together


PathomaniacPlatypus

While that does speak to Saga's power, I'd argue it's more of an issue with Titan decks being too good


john_dune

Titan decks aren't THAT good, plenty of things that beat them that are in the meta... saying as a titan player.


TheRecovery

Titan has gotten like 6 cards banned at this point? When will the madness end?


ADarkTwist

When I build titan.


fnxMagic

So go do it already. Take one for the team. It's what I did with both Opal and Looting..


ADarkTwist

I already did it with looting. Still have burn, but it's become increasingly clear it's not the tier 1 red aggro deck.


itsnotokayokay

What cards are banned because of titan? I can only think of bloom and GSZ. Field wasn't just Titan's doing, I'd say, but I guess you can count it.


EternalPhi

Which cards other that Summer Bloom?


MrPenguins1

When they ban Amulet


solepureskillz

Once folks start playing more land hate, only W&6 Urza lands should be able to properly abuse it.


coolmodern

Prediction: Urza's saga gets used more efficiently in many other decks and eventually gets banned as the format revolves around decks playing an Urza's Saga artifact package.


welshy1986

This is prolly the likely outcome. It's gonna turn into the same tired situation,you play it or you play something that beats it.


netsrak

For example: the card is disgusting in hammertime. It let's them drop Steelshaper's Gifts to play an uncountable tutor instead, and you get to play Esper Sentinel in that slot.


TinyGoyf

Just because my deck used once upon a time it doesnt mean the card was busted right ?


Chaos2718

I would agree that affinity being back is good, but that doesn't necessarily mean Urza's Saga is good. It's seeing play in a lot of decks other than affinity so whether it's too good or not depends on a bunch of other decks not just affinity. Kinda like Faithless Looting, mardu pyromancer was a cool deck and fine for the format, but that doesn't mean looting didn't earn its banning.


SqueeonmyJace

Even if I wasn't a long time affinity-->scales player I would agree with the sentiment towards making affinity viable. The potential issue with Urza's Saga I see is when it becomes ubiquitous for decks as a plan b. The card on its face is a land that produces mana for 3 turns (and/or some blockers for 2) and then can simply replace itself with a bauble or map as an absurd floor. The inclusion in a recent top performing UW control deck has me worried about the health of the card design. At very little deck building cost you can have this go-long insurance card (not unlike mystic sanctuary, but not limited to blue mages) that will lead to coma inducing play patterns and uniform deck building. Hope I'm wrong, would love nothing more than to beep-boop my opponents to death again and Urza's Saga is a great add to the deck.


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

I'm hoping people figure out a sound way to punish it that drives it out of non-artifact decks.


FritoFloyd

My worry is that this will not be possible. I saw that you mentioned enchantment hate in another comment, but here are some potential issues with that: 1. Decks where Urza’s Saga is the only enchantment means that enchantment hate is probably bad to board in. 2. Only two colors, green and white, have access to playable enchantment hate. 3. Even if a deck has other enchantments, like Dryad in Titan, it might still be too narrow of an effect to board in. I’m totally with you that it’s amazing to see affinity strategies played again. However, I think it’s incorrect to evaluate this card only in the context of affinity.


kirbycheat

Black has Feed the Swarm now.


FritoFloyd

Note that I said playable. If you are trying to be that obnoxious person who always has to point to the single exception to a generally accepted fact, we can pour one out with [[Pharika’s Libation]]. I stand by my comment 100%


kirbycheat

Feed the Swarm is very playable, it's been a 2-3 of in JDS sideboards for the past few months and it's particularly strong against Saga. If you plan on playing Saga yourself you should be aware of it, I pointed it out because historically Black hasn't had effective enchantment removal. But an instant speed Sinkhole/Terminate against Saga decks is very good.


bomban

Its a sorcery.


kirbycheat

Ah you got me there, you're right.


MTGCardFetcher

[Pharika’s Libation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/3/0307bb5c-0a46-4f6b-b6d5-58cf31987bb5.jpg?1581479925) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pharika%27s%20Libation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/111/pharikas-libation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0307bb5c-0a46-4f6b-b6d5-58cf31987bb5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


fnxMagic

Damn son. You killed 'em.


tankmayvin

Anti search cards make its stage 3 downside actually bad. But it might suffer the same issue as Uro: you could always path it, surgical it, relic/tormods it. But the card still had too much damn value.


Fuzzy_Ad_9084

Disagree. Uro generated value if it hit the battlefield, ramped, and punished burn/aggro strategies. Saga is a land, so disenchant is now stone rain. But saga does more than mana? Yes but it also expires and sets you back a land. It also takes a lot more effort to make saga win the game with its robot token vs Uro just rolling over dudes as a recurring value train stapled to a 6/6 body.


TheRecovery

If you disenchant their land you’re “tempo negative” and 1:1 trading, while Rest In Peace on Uro is a 1:1 trade but is “tempo even” for the Rest In Peace player. Urza’s Saga is much the same. The only hope for Urza’s saga is that some broken deck doesn’t incorporate it and ruin it for everyone else. Current modern players are very quick to ban


ary31415

> Rest In Peace on Uro is a 1:1 trade Uro replaces itself even with a rest in peace in play, it's a zero-for-one


TheRecovery

Keep in mind Rest In Peace doesn’t die after I cast it. They’re both card neutral, hence the 1:1. Only Blood Moon and Spreading Seas have similar effect on Urza’s Saga.


tankmayvin

Yes, this exactly. People really neglect the "tempo" angle of plays in addition to the card cost. Even if you T2 remove Saga with a 1cmc shatter card it hurts your T2 gamplan comprehensively. Uro is kinda nuts though even if you're using him as a 3 cmc sorcery into RIP/gy. He reads: pay 3, draw a card, ramp, gain 3 life. That's a growth spiral and slightly worse life goes on stapled to one card. This including the card neutrality since your opponent had to play 1 card for hating. I'm not quite sure Saga is as busted as Uro, but I think its very much a bustable card if someone figures out something non-aggro to do with it.


TheRecovery

Yeah, I agree. The point was more that both cards are bad when there is an active counter in play (no one is tapping out on T3 for a sorcery speed growth spiral, no one is even playing *growth spiral*, it’s not good enough at instant speed) but more importantly: going tempo negative means a lot and it matters a lot. Lands don’t cost mana, so you’re always tempo negative killing Urza’s Saga (unless you hit two cards with Force of Vigor) and that’s tough on the person playing against the card.


tankmayvin

Eh? Growth spiral is totally playable (and was being played) in Titan and BTL Scapeshift. I think builds are just moving back to Explore since its less taxing on the base and sorc speed isn't a problem mostly. Uro's floor isn't just growth spiral, its got that bit of life gain. But yeah you're right, I 100% agree if you're running it as a growth spiral its crap as far as cards go, but its hardly the worst as an absolute floor. And yeah, the tempo associated with saga is huge in a way that is different than interacting with the expected return from dealing with a uro. Uro has a higher ceiling than saga certainly, but that's not what matters right? Vigor is basically the only even way to deal with it right now, right? I can't think of any other card.


giggity_giggity

People are comparing it to field of the dead, which I think is nuts. FOTD could just be thrown into a lot of slow decks (or titan decks) as a 2-3 of and be very powerful. For that level of consistency, Urza's saga requires not just 3-4 saga, but also 2-3 expedition map. Plus, the worst case of FOTD was as a colorless tap land. The worst case of Urza's saga is as a land that lasts only a couple of turns and fetches an artifact that requires mana to use. I think they're on a very different level. Could it be described as FOTD lite? Sure, but it's definitely "lite".


SqueeonmyJace

Bauble doesn’t cost a mana to use *wink


giggity_giggity

True. But I see a lot of people talking like it's Field of the Dead 2, and to make that work you need to fetch map. "Land for 3 turns and then draw a card" isn't a terrible worst case scenario either. But there are also matchups where that won't be ideal. And if we're including a couple of baubles, we're now up to a 6-8 card package (while removing maybe 2 lands), which is a lot for many decks to handle without disrupting their main game plan.


Karl-Hevacheck

!RemindMe 3 months


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I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

Saga is faster but field of the dead definitely has a lot of value in the long game that saga does not


TheTransCleric

After watching urza’s saga in Titan I’m not sure how much I agree with that one


Morgormir

Back to Legacy with you u/I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM!


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

No one can stop my reign of terror!


SilentNightm4re

Honestly, i love your takes. I think you make a good point as well. Let the format shake out first. The hate will come vs the saga decks. Force of vigor is especially brutal.


pascee57

Wait were our sideboards supposed to be loose before?


BallisticQuill

UW control and tron player here. I’ve been taking damage from Arcbound Ravager for twenty years at this point. Magic just hasn’t been the same without him. If Urza’s saga can bring him back, then all hail Urza’s Saga.


agamemaker

I don’t think this is an unpopular opinion. If a deck is being propped up by a broken card and can’t survive in a healthy meta it doesn’t deserve to exist in the format. I don’t know if Urza’s saga deserves to be banned. [[Mox opal]] certainly did long before it was banned. If urza’s saga becomes so ubiquitous that most decks are playing it, I think it should be banned even if it forces affinity back into obscurity.


The_Bird_Wizard

This is true and all but couldn't you say the same about half the decks in modern? Would Amulet be good without Titan? Would Living End be good without Cascade / As Foretold? Would Blitz be good without Manamorphose? Would Humans be good without Aether Vial? I could go on...


agamemaker

I'm not advocating for banning the best card out of every deck. I'm saying that cards that should be banned need to be banned. I don't really think there is an argument saying Titan or vial should be banned. Neither are pushing a single deck to such a point where it needs to be taken down a peg and neither are so ubiquitous because they are just the best thing to do in the format. Cascade has always had a troubled history. We'll see if [[shardless agent]] pushes it over the edge, but I don't really know. I think r&d should act based on how things play out. I think prowess could survive without manamorphose and humans could survive without vial. Although humans is already in a tough spot, I'm just saying it wouldn't drop the deck all that much.


MTGCardFetcher

[shardless agent](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/0/b0824e77-c84b-464a-aa0c-44af5f6faa50.jpg?1622657408) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shardless%20agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/292/shardless-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b0824e77-c84b-464a-aa0c-44af5f6faa50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Mox opal](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/6/56001a36-126b-4c08-af98-a6cc4d84210e.jpg?1599709600) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20opal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/275/mox-opal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56001a36-126b-4c08-af98-a6cc4d84210e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


BlankBlankston

Mox opal was doing fine in many health metas before it was banned, and it was banned because it restricted future cards and had the potential to break modern. It was not, at the time of banning breaking modern. That honor goes to Oko. There were more copies of Shardless agent in the top 32 of Saturday challenge than saga (a lot more), and equal copies of shardless and saga in the top 32 on Sunday. Should we ban living end? Thats a deck that is propped up by broken cards and a broken mechanic. Or ban grapshot? Thats a broken card. Powerful enablers and powerful payoffs, make archetypes.


maplemagiciangirl

>Should we ban living end? Thats a deck that is propped up by broken cards and a broken mechanic. Or ban grapshot? Thats a broken card. What decks do living end and grapeshot go in? Just living end and storm? Okay so what decks did mox go in? Decks that wanted extra mana turn 1 to enable early kills and lock outs? Seems ban worthy, how about field of the dead? Any deck that could get 7 lands? Seems to ubiquitous and worthy of banning. If saga is in the same spot as field where any deck will run it as a wincon and land then yes it should get banned if it stays to affinity then it should stay


Rob_1089

there are plenty of cards that are banned and only go in one deck though. there is only one deck for summer bloom, blazing shoal, golgari grave troll, krark clan ironworks, etc.


agamemaker

Those cards pushed all of the decks they represent to problematic places, where they just were the meta. If urza's saga get's banned it's not because it makes affinity too good, it's because it is a must include in every deck like [[Lurrus]] was.


MTGCardFetcher

[Lurrus](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/a/5ad36fb2-c44e-4085-ba0d-54277841ad3a.jpg?1616182245) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lurrus%20of%20the%20dream-den) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/226/lurrus-of-the-dream-den?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5ad36fb2-c44e-4085-ba0d-54277841ad3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


BlankBlankston

There were 3 kinds of FotD decks Uro, Titan and Etron, it wasn't any deck, and it was oppressive, and inevitable without doing anything other than playing lands and cost no mana. Saga isn't anywhere close to the same play patterns, it cost 3 mana per construct, and you lose the land. If decks play it then good. If it becomes oppressive then they should ban it. Ya'll out here talking about bans 6 days into a new format, after 2 years of 0 artifact hate in sideboards.


SnooWords2887

Not even released in paper 🥲


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

Low key fuck living end lol


AAABattery03

Yeah, this. Affinity once needed it’s own special Mox to survive. Now it needs a land that can shit out two Karnstructs and fish out a 0 or 1 mana artifact. At some point it just brings up the question of why this deck gets special treatment to be propped up by busted shit. Fun decks being propped up by broken cards happens *all* the time, and they die to bans all the time. Miracles died to the Sanctuary ban, Ephemerate Control died to the Uro ban, Mono-Red Prison died without SSG, and many more similar cases. In all of those cases, the wider Modern community acknowledged that the decks had to die to prevent more busted shenanigans. Why the blind spot for Affinity? I’m not saying Urza’s Saga definitively deserves a ban either, but if it does, letting it survive just to keep Affinity propped up isn’t a good idea. If Affinity needs the effect that bad, reprint it in Modern Horizons 3 in a xenophobic manner that only helps artifact strategies.


sameth1

I think the difference is that affinity has been such a prominent deck for the first 6 or so years of modern's history so there are a lot of affinity players who are no longer winning games and looking for something to blame.


buddhathegravekeeper

Urza saga is gonna make prime time nutty


MagicMike90278

Lol primeval titan dosent need that land to be nutty it already is


buddhathegravekeeper

More? Lol


Broken_Emphasis

So, Fish players — how does it feel to basically be Ponza vs. Urza's Saga decks?


TheRealNequam

Between Tideshaper, Dockhand and Spreading Seas... Are they basically just blue Ponza vs everyone?


nocensts

What a cold take. If a card is toxic it doesn't matter if affinity is playable with it. I'm happy if people are able to play a deck they've enjoyed but that isn't a huge factor in general.


Ghasois

>From the time when modern was created to the point where mox opal was banned, affinity was a staple archetype in modern. Affinity died long before Opal was banned


giggity_giggity

> I saw a post on here talking about how Urza's saga should possibly get banned. People are forgetting that Wizards will bend over backwards to avoid banning a card with "Urza" in the name.


Agent789789

Long time affinity player here. When opal got the ban, I was pissed off like all the other robots. It was tough, but I decided that I just wanted to get some cash and didn’t wan’t an unplayable deck sitting on my desk anymore, despite how much I had treasured it. I got rid of the opals, but I hesitated with the rest of the cards. A part of me just thought, “what if ravager and the boys could see play again?” So, I decided to keep everything but the opals. Welp, its looking like that decision paid off. I might finally get to take that long awaited victory lap with the boys.


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

I did the same thing back when I played affinity


Linseag

Same with Lantern :P


Particular_Squash_40

Even the food decks are using Urza's saga too, because they produce artifacts in the form of food of course. Can fetch cookbook too. I miss affinity though


TemurTron

Man, a lot of these Urza's Saga complainers REALLY need to try casting a Blood Moon or a Spreading Seas on the thing. It literally just dies from the effect. Seas is a 2 mana cantripping Stone Rain. Or keep in mind that [[Obsidian Charmaw]] and [[Break the Ice]] were literally just printed with colorless hate in mind. It's almost as if Saga was designed to be a powerful, but easy to hate out, new staple.


DanTopTier

As a Ponza player, I bring the gift of Blood Moon to you all! Rejoice and tap your lands for red mana! All praise our savior the Blood Moon!


Hamadyne-R

This is a solid point. Right now the metagame is shifting; once people find ways to utilize all of the new cards then I think Urza's Saga users will not be as scary.


BlankBlankston

or alpine moon...


Aztekar

> Seas is a 2 mana cantripping Stone Rain. How? Like rules-wise how? It becomes an Island, right? Even if it stays a Saga, it still has a lore counter on it and only gets sacrificed after the third one is removed. I get that a Blood Moon on the field kills a Saga on entrance because there aren't any lore counters, but I don't get how Seas kills it.


andrecaugusto

A saga is sacrificed when it has equal or more counters then chapters. Since it loses all chapters, it is sacrificed as a state base action instantly. 714.4. If the number of lore counters on a Saga permanent is greater than or equal to its final chapter number, and it isn’t the source of a chapter ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that Saga’s controller sacrifices it. This state-based action doesn’t use the stack.


Aztekar

What in the heck. What a weird ruling for sagas. Thank you, I appreciate it!


TemurTron

I don't understand the rules at all, I just know what happens when I play the cards. * If you have a Saga out and someone Blood Moons you, the Saga dies instantly. * If you have a Saga out and someone Spreading Seas it, the Saga dies instantly. * If an opponent has a Blood Moon in play and you play a Saga, well that thing is gonna die right away too.


MTGCardFetcher

[Obsidian Charmaw](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/e/ee6d08be-a6fc-44a5-932d-b6a8705534c0.jpg?1622389751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obsidian%20Charmaw) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/137/obsidian-charmaw?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ee6d08be-a6fc-44a5-932d-b6a8705534c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Break the Ice](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/1/01ca9568-06b6-4c57-b1f6-8a74ec2a2b91.jpg?1622617829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Break%20the%20Ice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/77/break-the-ice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01ca9568-06b6-4c57-b1f6-8a74ec2a2b91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


slapyouwithsilence

"this broken card is good for my favorite deck, therefore it shouldn't be banned"


hax0rm4n

i don't necessarily agree with OP but the usual reply with a combination of classic reddit straw man and snark reflects poorly on this sub


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

Lol did you read my name?


hax0rm4n

the only other deck i ever heard you try out was mono W loam


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

Loamless loam yeah. Rishadan port is a fun card. To break character for a second, I've actually been using a rental account on cardhoarder to play every deck in Legacy. Pre-mh2, Uro miracles definitely felt like the strongest deck that I played. Post mh2 I'm testing BW reanimator with grief and solitude in modern. 6-3 so far on modo.


10BillionDreams

I feel absolutely shocked and betrayed. Also sounds like a lot of fun.


hax0rm4n

beat soft permission and mana denial the chad way by not using mana for your spells


DargonDestroy

eh urza saga prob going to get banned but not cuz of affinity but because it does so much for so little. And that fact that every deck can play it too, will make it be banned in modern some time or later.


Karl-Hevacheck

Just ban this and Urza and bring back Opal, that’s all we ask


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

I'd rather it be this than opal tbh. Opal kept enabling shit like iron works.


Karl-Hevacheck

KCI enabled KCI, that’s what should have been banned imo.


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

Kci was banned before opal lol


Karl-Hevacheck

lol whoops, yes it was, but my point still stands, Oko, Urza and KCI were the problem not Opal.


Gritgratgrit

I wholeheartedly agree! People panic about the saga doing work in other decks, but I think it will be OK. Amulet with the saga gets hated out worse than before by blood moon effects, as it stone rains the saga. The food decks I'm sure are vulnerable to something between gy hate and karn, though I won't be too bombastic about this one. And then there's the regular artifact and enchantment hate that people seem to have forgotten can be played.


ThePuppetSoul

It's effectively Field of the Dead that enters untapped and eventually tutors up hoser artifacts and puts them directly into play. There's no way it survives.


gammerx

It's not even CLOSE to field of the dead.


ThePuppetSoul

*watches An_Actual_Potato piloting amulet titan tutor up a pair to put a pair of artifact-titans into play each turn and overwhelm the opponent's spot removal without needing to put any consideration into the landbase* Well, I mean, you're correct, just not in the direction you thought.


gammerx

Well no, field of the dead is repeatable and scalable. Getting a couple small creatures off titan is WAY easier to deal with than getting 4 small creatures, every single turn.


ThePuppetSoul

>small They're 6/6s when they swing for the first time.


gammerx

Maybe, right? You have to tap 6 lands the turn after titan and then the land dies. Not garuanteed to be a 6/6 and it's still easier to deal with than 6 2/2s, and every turn.. It's not as good as field of the dead.


ThePuppetSoul

You don't have to tap six lands, you have to tap six mana, which coincidentally is what you paid for the Titan you used to fetch them. For FotD to do anything, you would need six other differently named lands, which means under optimal titan conditions (turn 2 Titan), you won't have it online for several turns if the Titan is answered. Saga doesn't have those limitations, it just reads: "skip your next turn if your titan was answered: make four 6/6s and tutor up an amulet and another copy of this effect." It reads similar in UW Control, but without the skip a turn part and they get bigger slower, but you're running a full playset of Expo Maps to just chain them together until you overwhelm your opponent. The Saga>Map>Saga loop is simply an untapped, unconditional FotD with an upkeep cost of 2.


BlossomOfBitterness

There's no way urzas saga is getting banned. Its good but not overpowered.


welshy1986

I think we should comeback to this topic in 6 months. Let things settle. It's way too early for any posts for or against regarding this nonsense. At least for this format.


ilikeelks

Actually, does urza Saga benefit from decks?


thephotoman

I thought you only played 4C Loam. But a return of Affinity...I can go for that. It was a solid aggro-combo deck.


I_ONLY_PLAY_4C_LOAM

I'm not playing affinity, but I'm happy they got sweet cards.


KILLJEFFREY

What's a good Affinity list?


_TheLionheart_

Affinity playing an untapped land on then 1, making an 8/8 on turn 2 and 3 then tutoring out another signal pest or something is pretty nutty when it's all coming from a land that most of the format can't interact with


Effective_Zombie9723

Affinity is fine for the format. Saga is less fine. Back in affinity’s time it basically required you to have artifact hate in your sideboard. That is a fine thing to require. But saga is different in that it gets around a lot of the hate as it is a 3 for 1 on a land that you can’t really interact with. Considering field of the dead for banned for being a value land that is way more egregious than this, I would expect it to be banned as well.