By - iamnotabot_Really
I’m glad Josef recognizes only a stern high school wood shop teacher like Peter Vermes can get him back on track.
Love that the thumbnail is him in a KC jersey
Right? I saw that and am now very confused. Does anyone know why?
They sometimes exchange jerseys after games.
I just don’t understand why the player would want to put that jersey on. But I guess they’re gonna shower regardless.
All the pictures of us winning the Eastern Conference in 2018 have Josef in a Red Bulls jersey 😂 Guess it’s just his thing.
Probably this! Forgot we played their at the beginning of the season. Trauma gets buried.
I honestly didn't know that players still do that.
It is because it was this exact moment in history, when Josef threw on that KC jersey and did his interview, he was signaling the start of the end of his relationship w Atlanta Un. jk i don't know why.
Image doesn’t even show up in the article, so someone specifically configured the OpenGraph tags to show this image only when the link was shared lol.
“What is more important the culture or scoring goals? And for me culture. It’s culture over anything.”
the train sub is not gonna be happy with this quote from its conductor
Culture should always win out.
Having a disaster of a locker room but scoring goals = fragile team that crumples when the goals stop.
A team with a great culture, however, will weather storms better, and be much more capable of pulling itself up by its bootstraps, as it were, when the going gets tough.
Pineda is 100% correct that culture matters more overall than short-term gains.
I don’t disagree, there’s a clear rot within this club from the FO down and we need a deep cleaning. but im not convinced many of our players care about a culture or even winning
i personally like Pineda, I think he can be successful but he’s having difficulty adjusting to being the guy. I fear we fire him, he finds almost immediate success at his next club, and we’re still wallowing and shifting the blame.
> but im not convinced many of our players care about a culture or even winning
Yeah that'd be the rot, my friend.
You need people who can and will buy into the mentality and the culture. If they won't, it doesn't matter how good they are, they're detrimental to the team.
Big upheaval is needed for sure. I just hope it happens soon, and ideally without Pineda losing his job over it all. He's the right man to introduce the right culture, just needs full support from the owners and everyone in between.
> Yeah that'd be the rot, my friend.
Or, ya know, a shitty head coach who is tactically lost.
No one listens to us. Pineda has been absolutely terrible this year. And the one thing a coach cannot afford to do is lose the locker room. He has lost it. He should be gone, but it sounds like we’ll slide back down the table in 2023. Lovely. Just fucking excellent stuff right there.
He's trying to do what Mikel Arteta has done with Arsenal. Hope they give him time
>Having a disaster of a locker room but scoring goals = fragile team that crumples when the goals stop.
Sounds like Atlanta United this year with or without Martinez, so that raises the question on what exactly Pineda is bringing to the table.
He's bringing change.
Swapping out the entire culture of a club isn't something that happens overnight.
Tata came in like a wrecking ball and set the bar high in his own way where none had previously existed, but Pineda is attempting to *foster* the change. He wants the players to buy into the mentality and the *team.* Much like Schmetzer, he wants the players themselves to be wholeheartedly devoted to each other, because that kind of buy-in is what builds long-term success.
Bringing in 1 or 2 players into an existing strong culture is a shitload easier and quicker than overhauling the entire thing.
Pineda will likely need multiple seasons with his own say in who gets picked up (to some degree at least), in order to truly make it work (or complete buy-in from the people who do go after talent).
It's literally the Seattle Sounders formula, but being attempted in a city that got spoiled by early success before a string of bad DP hires chucked a bunch of wrenches into the works and the coaching turnover death spiral began.
Echoes of Eddie Johnsons 'pay me' celebration shortly before he was traded. Granted that played out the year before Pineda was signed, but Pineda spent growing in to leadership on a team with lower tolerance for that sort of personality and drama. I have to imagine Atlantas ownership asked about how he'd handle situations like this given the clubs history.
>Swapping out the entire culture of a club isn't something that happens overnight.
He didn't get here last night. He's been here for over a year. Meanwhile, he didn't punish Martinez for sitting out practice when he was told he wasn't going to start. But he did suspend Martinez for getting into a shouting match with him after the loss. I guess that's his idea of team culture. "Do whatever you like when it comes to practice, but don't talk back to me."
Sitting out practice only harms Martinez. Let him stew.
Throwing a fit and upending tables in another team's stadium is a childish tantrum that *should* be punished more harshly.
Do you not know how to pick your battles? Some things, like someone pouting because they weren't selected to start, just aren't worth dumping gasoline all over.
Throwing tables around, however, isn't something that can be ignored.
Sitting out practice when he wasn't starting doesn't mean much at all, really, and definitely hurts Martinez more than his team, who was already going to be playing without him, at least for the majority of the game.
Your team is in trouble, and attitudes like yours are part of the problem too.
He didn't start, therefore he didn't play the majority of the game unless he was subbed on at halftime, so ......
Edit: What a surprise. /u/007plus10 blocked me instead of continuing the conversation.
Never said he didn't need the practice. He surely does. However, him missing out hurts him way more, because the team is already moving on without him. If he wants back in, he needs to work hard, which means he needs to train. Simple stuff.
I dunno about that . Losing an entire locker room or losing a player who feels he’s above the rest of them. I’d favour a better locker room over goals that won’t be there next year .
Watching Josef and Dwyer run around aimlessly for thirty minutes when ATL visited the other week was awkward. Both those guys were so dangerous and it's just vanished.
Martinez was suspended for flipping a food table in anger and yelling at the coach after losing a game that effectively ended our season. Not sure how that makes him act like he's "above the rest of the team".
I tend to think this entire episode is being over-analyzed by fans and media that just don't have all the facts, but one additional fact worth mentioning is that Josef was reportedly upset to learn that he wouldn't be starting in Portland, refused to train, and there were doubts about whether he'd board the plane. Granted, his form is starting to return and he sure seems more effective than Cisneros, but still not a constructive way to deal with being a sub vs. a starter (for now).
This season is lost. Another 2-3 goals in the last games mean nothing.
Developing a healthy culture though puts you in a better situation for 2023.
He's right, though?
lol based on the amount of #freejosef comments I’ve seen on insta, I don’t think many of our fans care if he’s right
I do have a question for you - I know Mulraney was cup tied for USOC, bc of that do you know if he’ll be able to get a ring? i miss that Irish guy, glad he’s getting more playing time with y’all.
No idea -- I saw him out and about during the trophy celebrations.
Rings are up to the team and I'm sure the team will honor him as part of the squad.
Congrats to Pineda on establishing a "culture" where sitting out practice before a game because you aren't starting is fine but getting into a shouting match with the coach after a loss gets you suspended.
Man, i miss Pineda as a former player/coach. I think he did a good job of taking Schmetzer’s message, and relating it to the current generation of players. Maybe that’s just me.
That literally sounds like what he can’t do at Atlanta TBH.
At this point, I wonder if a certain player with a large ego isn't undermining Pineda's messaging
Hot take: J. Martinez is not the same player post injury and does not have the support system around him. He doesn't have outstanding star players like years past.
Pineda understands the constraints and limitations of the team and could possibly trying to preach team unity over individuality.
*edit* the salt, I can taste it. Chill, I agree with you. You can have high $$$ team but if no unity, its pointless.
Literally one of the highest spending teams in MLS, the hell you talking about “doesnt have the support around him?”
They have the highest salary in the league.
> “doesnt have the support around him?”
They've had some pretty bad injuries this year, and, someone correct me if I'm wrong, they're still paying for players that are no longer there.
Aside from all of that, just because you have a high salary hit doesn't mean you have high quality players on the field.
More times than I'd like to see, Araujo will take a crazy shot outside the box rather than passing to an open/lightly marked Martinez. Also, our crosses into the box just haven't been the same since we lost Gressel. There's some missing chemistry for sure.
The chemistry is off because we haven't been able to field anything close to a consistent lineup. Atlanta has played 29 matches. FOUR players on the entire roster have started 20+ games. The team has played 2,610 minutes of soccer. ONE player has broken the 2,000 minute mark. I picked two decently performing teams at random in Austin and Philly. For Austin, nine players have started 20+ games, with six breaking the 2,000 minute mark. Philly has played one more game, so the numbers aren't perfectly comparable, but they've also had nine players start 20+ games, with eight breaking the 2,000 minute mark.
Pineda isn't a perfect coach by any stretch and has done some things that I have very much thought were wrong, but the lack of reliability and available players have severely hampered what the hell he's throwing out there every week.
Bro, the spending part doesn’t make a team better. It’s easy to value a team at the end of the season because now you know if they’re worth it.
This team just needs unity. Great players but Josef is just outta control.
That’s what I would think. Pineda is probably trying to establish the kind of team first culture that Schmetzer instills, but is running into a Josef Martinez sized ego.
Josef had surgery and was away from team for 7 matches.. during those 7 matches we won 1 (Chicago at home), lost 3, and tied 3… so 6 points… but yes, it is clearly him undermining this great success
I didn't say success, I said messaging. If a coach has to get a specific player's buy-in for any of his ideas or that player will revolt/push-back, that player is basically acting as if they are bigger than the team, which would undermine the coach's messaging. I am not saying that Pineda is perfect and we should all just have blind faith, but Josef now has a track record of acting like he's bigger than the team, which can be detrimental to cohesion and team chemistry in a TEAM sport.
What messaging is he undermining? Like this is professional sport… if you can’t handle divas, you don’t belong in the job
Speaking of professional, is acting like a diva professional? It seems like the diva is being handled, but that doesn't mean that the diva's conduct hasn't hurt the team chemistry.
Should players act like divas? No… do plenty of them? Yes… should managers figure out how to handle them? Yes… if they can’t, do they share the blame? Yes… you’ve been with the player for a year, you know who he is. But Josef the diva is a small part of the concern. We are disorganized on defense, we have no midfield, our attack is a shell of its potential. We are really freaking bad and spend more than everyone else. Boca should go, Josef should go, and Pineda should go. None of them are effective at this point
I'm with you on most of that. The on field product is very poor and inexcusable. Boca should have been gone a long time ago. I think Josef could still work here, but he'd have to eat more than one slice of humble pie, which I don't see happening. I agree that this season is not a good look for Pineda, but I'm in the camp that it would be harsh to sack him based on the hand he was dealt (mainly by Boca's failings).
I judge a manager by the relative performance of the team compared to what they’ve got talent wise… I think with the injuries, this team should be around 6th in the league. Doing worse is a poor performance by the manager.
Completely irrelevant to his point
I guess so? Other than the managers message didn’t make any difference with Josef there or not. His message had no problem getting through last season with Josef there…
jesus. let it rest.
Messaging from a coach works a lot better when you're winning than not.
Everything works better when you're winning than losing. Everything. Problems can easily be covered up by wins. I would argue that messaging from the coach and team chemistry is MORE IMPORTANT when you're losing than winning. You need people on your team that will rally together in the hard times, not make it fractured and miserable.
The whole idea of "just win and everything will be ok" is a pipe dream.
I don't disagree with any of that. But blaming Josef for Pineda not having more success is silly.
The irony here is that the messaging is more important when you're not winning.
Or tactics? Talent? Health?
Part of the coach's message is tactics.
Of course talent is important, but as a team, you have to deal with the players you have. Same with health.
MLS is grueling, and almost every single team loses key players for a couple of games. Those are the times you need your coach to step up with tactics so you don't completely collapse.
If the players aren't listening to those things, it doesn't work.
On the other hand, if you have good players, everyone is healthy, on the same page, reading each other, etc, the coach's tactics aren't quite as important as the players doing what they do best.
Pineda having a healthy squad long enough to figure out the optimum tactics for half a season or so BEFORE having the injury epidemic would have made a big difference
Sure. But that's not the hand that was dealt to him, or the team.
Which is my entire point. When things aren't optimal, listening to leadership becomes even more important.
Sure. But listening to the boss because he's the boss and listening to the boss because he's guided you successfully thru some prior battles are VERY different types of respect.
The "messaging" isn't the problem. They are at or near the top of the league in countless offensive categories which is certainly not indicative of a team that isn't trying. But many of our key attacking players just don't seem to know how to use each other and there is definitely a tactical problem with the slow buildup. Plus, we've been conceding more goals than at any time in club history, perhaps at least in part due to a revolving door at GK and Miles Robinson being out.
Do you not realize how silly this is? Pineda's very job relies on winning.
What you're really saying here is "Pineda hates Josef so much, that he's willing to lose his entire career over not playing him"
That’s the big brain logic we have going on at the train sub, come on down y’all
Once A Sounder
He'd probably be a good fit at another southeastern MLS team, one with a veteran South American manager who could handle him 💪🏽
Come to papa Pareja :)
He'll no. I don't care how skilled he is he would be poison. He thinks he is bigger than the team he plays for.
Yeah realistically you're probably right. It seems a big part of what success Orlando has is through the team chemistry.
Mulraney straight up said that he found a “togetherness” in Orlando that he never saw while playing in Atlanta. That was depressing to hear.
Why would you want him? The guy is a serious lockerroom cancer and thinks he's the most important person in the world.
Im just saying that for the bantz -- I would love to Josef to stay on at Atlanta and ruin another three coaches tenures
Still hasn't apologized... no player is bigger than the team...
When you’ve had a thousand different managers and the results are still the same, you gotta start looking at the players and the people putting those players on the field instead.
I think we, including myself, should have seen this coming. Atlanta has very talented, expensive players who need an experienced manager to control all then personalities. Pineda would be a great coach for maybe 20 teams in MLS, where you can cultivate a culture. They need another coach like Tata who can manage the talent and personality that comes with Atlanta.
it's not just the manager though. Atlanta is woefully lacking in player leadership. Parkhurst was a great captain, but we had several other experienced pros at the same time. Larentowitz was a solid replacement for 1 year, but Heinze had also brought in Lissandro Lopez, but he was gone in less than a month and Heinze lost the locker room and Larry retired.
Pineda similarly brought in Ozzie, same idea, only slightly longer tenure AND we lost Guzan and Miles as well. From an internal culture perspective, we're practically an expansion team at this point.
Totally agreed. But maybe we should start bringing in veteran leaders who are closer to 32 than 36? Maybe even a midfielder closer to his prime than to retirement.
100% We need another Nagbe. Sadly, Hyndman has been our attempt at that and he just can't stay healthy long enough to matter. And injured vets have nothing like the same impact on a club.
> Atlanta is woefully lacking in player leadership.
I mean, if Josef is going to do this to a manager, why on earth would anyone step up?
In fact, if he thinks he's so important, why on earth isn't HE doing it?
Did you ever see Josef disrespect Guzan, Parkhurst, Larentowitz, etc?
But really, are you REALLY asking why a 20 year old isn't going to have the leadership experience of a 35 year old?
> are you REALLY asking why a 20 year old
Umm...Josef is 29.
And clearly, he thinks he knows better than at least 3 coaches now
> Did you ever see Josef disrespect Guzan, Parkhurst, Larentowitz, etc?
Dude dumped after match food all over the floor. He disrespected everyone when he did that
YOU are the one who said Joself was bullying our younger players into not stepping up to be leaders. Do you seriously not even understand your OWN statements?
And 80% of our fanbase think they know more than AT LEAST 2 of our 4 coaches.
> YOU are the one who said Joself was bullying our younger players into not stepping up to be leaders
No. I said he's bullying the FO and coaches. If he's doing that to them, why would any player step up and deal with that toxicity?
I said nothing about him bullying any players, much less young guys.
You mean like FdB or Heinze?
How many managers will he tank?
This has been cultivated throughout the organization.
By allowing Josef to stomp his feet for years, and have a hand in if a manager gets fired, you're telling him (and the entire team/FO/etc) that he can do whatever he wants.
Shrugging these temper tantrums off as "personalities" doesn't help the situation, and it's a bad excuse for allowing someone to be a shitty person.
IMO, Pineda and everyone else going along with this suspension are exactly what Atlanta needs to start righting their ship.
I've heard Bocanegra has been part of the problem too.
Me thinks Martinez isn't going to be around next year. Dude seems like he has passion, but it quickly turns sour if the team isn't winning. He's had issues with all the previous coaches, except maybe Valentino and Tata, and his production has dipped because of his injury.
There comes a point where the team has to be the focus and not the whims of a player. This team should be top four in the East, even with all the injuries, they are that stacked, but they can't get the most of the players, and I can't think it's because three coaches (albeit some terribly flawed) can't seem to find the magic that this team was under Tata.
Maybe Pineda forcing players to drink the kool-aid. Star player revolts.
All they have is koolaid because Josef threw their lunch on the floor
Yeah, definitely Pineda's fault. It was also Heinze's fault and de Boer's fault. No discernible behavior in Martinez's behavior at all.