T O P

Personally think this was the perfect conclusion to Roxas and Nsmine's story

They had only met for all of 2 minutes prior to this, so her excitement of being with him again isn't a great end imo

Edited for clarity - they met for a few minutes at the beginning of the game, not at the end

J723

They had only met for all of 2 minutes prior to this, so her excitement of being with him again isn't a great end imo Edited for clarity - they met for a few minutes at the beginning of the game, not at the end


trimble197

I saw it as Kairi and Sora were crushing on each other so hard that it transferred to their Nobodies And there was KH1 where Sora spent a majority of the game with Kairi’s heart inside of him.


Imaginary-End-08

Those were my thoughts too. KH1 Kairi wanted to take the raft with just Sora. Sora killed himself so she could wake up again.


trimble197

Yep. And people gotta remember that Namine and Roxas still retain parts of their other selves. If they were so vastly different, they wouldn’t be Nobodies at all. So it’s no surprise that they feel a strong bond between each other even though they’ve only met for a short time.


HijonoYoki

Not at all. People just zero in on the romantic undertones while ignoring the actual reasoning behind their behavior presented in the game. You can feel attraction to somebody in literally a minute, more could happen in 2-3 more. The fact of the matter is Naminè treated him as an equal and as an individual with **agency**. He wanted to know the truth, and thus, she gave it to him (something no one else did, including his friends...majority of the reason for their fall outs), because she feels he deserves to know. It's why she even broke in to Diz's data world in the first place. Their bond relies on this and that they share similar doomed fates. The whole scene in TWTNW was them understanding why this had to happen, that they *won't* be alone because they remember who each other are (i.e. you and I know we exist), and while it's not the upmost of happy endings, they at least found solace that they still exist in some form. Being together was the silver lining. Not to mention, this is just the beginning of a budding friendship/relationship. I don't think they have feelings for each other [yet?]. It's simply the circumstances that they have in common, and that is always enough to start vibing well with someone else. She helped him from being thrown into Sora with absolutely no knowledge of what was coming. Sora and Kairi have *zilch* to do with this understanding and connection cause they are not Nobodies. Not to mention you're shitting on the entire point that they are their own people. Yes, they are off-set Sora and Kairi biologically/existence wise, but they are not them. Of course, they brought them back, but at that point in time, I could see why it would be a fitting, bittersweet finish to their story.


[deleted]

Kairi was crushing on Sora. Sora was crushing on Riku.


chandlerwithaz

I think sora loves both equally.


[deleted]

He's like "oh, hey Kairi" and then run right by her and practically kisses Riku's feet.


Gldbnyz

Wasn’t most of Sora’s motivation in KH1 about Kairi even after seeing Riku


TatsunaKyo

Yes but you can't get through the "everything must be gay" hive mind.


chandlerwithaz

Im just like… the adveture is more important than the ships people…


NevreLove

I'm gay and don't get the gay shipping. Id love for there to be legit LGBT characters as well as actual POC in KH...but so far it hasn't happened. I think the reason people take shipping so seriously is that there ISNT enough actual LGBT representation in general...but its getting a bit better. Personally, Its obvious to me that Sora and Kairi have feelings for each other...I don't see the Sora Riku moments everyone claims are gay. Sora and Roxas have more ambiguously gay moments! ("Another dream about him...")


chandlerwithaz

Well considering roxas is inside him most of the franchise


chandlerwithaz

I think the closest we get is axel and saix but it can also be taken as like brotherly


Hylianhaxorus

I see their relationship(sora and riku) much like Gon and Killua from HinterxHunter. There are intense romantic undertones but it moreso stems from the lack of affection men generally show each other in Japan openly, and so it's supposed to show these unwavering, open bonds of friendship and love that makes them inseparable. Other parts of the world that behavior is often exclusively saved for romantic relarionships(whether that I'd good or not isn't for me to decide), but I'd go as far as to say the shipping definitely has footing, but it won't ever come to be because the serious homoerotic undertones stem from emotional repression by certain societies, not actual romantic intentions. It also doesn't help that after the first game, both Sora AND the writers constantly forget about or sideline her and put Riku in equally emotionally driving and often very homoerotic situations by Western standards, because of said societal differences. The boys love each other like brothers for sure, but it sure seems like the writers want you to think otherwise from a quick glance at each major event and interaction across their games.


[deleted]

The only gay I want to see in KH is Lea and Isa because I ship them.


SquidmanMal

Alright, but we can't forget the context of him basically 'knowing' Kairi is in trouble but alright, but having been told previously Riku might have been killed. ​ Riku, who he last saw (knowingly) on the other side of the DTD.


EternalMemes30

lol kairi shows up to help him and he's just "oh hi kairi" but when kairi says that "ansem" was riku sora got completely emotional saying "riku is here" on his knees, until today I find that funny


redman8828

I mean to be fair as far as he knew Kairi was p much chilling on destiny islands before she got kidnapped, so once he saw Kairi he knew she was safe. Meanwhile last he actually saw Riku was him helping Mickey close the door to darkness, with his only vague hints about him being alive from Mickey who was forced to keep quiet about it. For all Sora knew Mickey could’ve been covering up that riku died or became horribly injured or something and made to promise not to tell Sora. It wasn’t the same level of fear to start with so the different reactions make sense.


chandlerwithaz

THATS WHAT IM SAYING.


oscuritaforze

Also, Sora had the same sort of reaction when he thought Kairi was in similar danger. See: him being willing to beg on his hands and knees for Saix to take him to her when she was held captive by the Organization.


casperdacrook

My favorite thing somebody said on this subreddit “hi my name’s kairi, this is my boyfriend sora and this is his boyfriend riku”


[deleted]

Okay, but now read it in Peppa Pig's voice.


Soul699

That's just make it worse since it means the emotions Roxas is feeling are fabricated and not his.


RoxasXIIV

That's why his romance with xion on the comics is so perfect


trimble197

I mean, Roxas is Sora and Namine is Kairi. They would still like each other either way.


Soul699

But that just remove a huge chunk of Naminé and Roxas unique identity, because the emotions they feel aren't their own.


trimble197

But they are still Sora and Kairi.


EternalMemes30

BUT the whole point of the 2 arc is that they are MORE than just sora and kairi's nobody, roxas story pretty much revolves around that, I find it a little disappointing that their "love" exists just because their originals love each other


trimble197

They are unique but they still retain parts of their originals’ character.


dstanley17

Except those two are their own people. They're not Sora and Kairi. Even if we ignore lore introduced in later games and focus *only* on KH2, nothing about Sora influences Roxas's personality. Or at least, nothing that's noticeable or distinct from other characters in this series. So it's hard to believe that this is the one and only thing that does.


trimble197

You guys can keep saying thing that they’re own person, which they are, but the main thing is that Nobodies are supposed to be similar to their originals. Different, but still similar in some ways.


dstanley17

I can list the number of similarities between Sora and Roxas as: is male, has blue eyes, loves his friends, and can wield a keyblade. Which is also stuff that can be said about *a lot* of characters in this series, but I doubt we're gonna get any crackpot theories of... I don't know, Sora being Terra's secret de-aged Nobody or something like that. The whole thing about Nobodies being similar to their originals really only applies because they're (supposed) to have memories of their original selves. It's why all the Nobodies *without* exentuating circumstances to their hearts and bodies (ala Sora and Xehanort) pretty much are one-to-one identical with their original selves. But Roxas never had any of Sora's memories. He had to develop as his own being, without that kind of attachment to define him.


Libruhh

This was always my biggest complaint, the relationship between them was completely manufactured at this moment just for story payoff


JRBehr

It wasn’t as bad back when KH2 came out and we didn’t know much about Roxas, but yeah, post Days it isn’t a very earned relationship


11711510111411009710

I think it's as simple as kingdom hearts being a story about friendship. They are close friends from the moment they meet because that's just the kind of people they are. Sora would do the same. He can become friends with anyone after only a few moments of knowing them, and then he'll never stop fighting for them.


chandlerwithaz

They met in the prologue…


J723

That's what I'm referring to


chandlerwithaz

But like that wasn’t seconds prior… that was like a whole game Edit: i mean she kind of helped him escape


J723

Oh I see the issue. The "2 minutes seconds prior to this" was a typo. It's supposed to say "2 minutes prior to this." I'll edit my original comment


chandlerwithaz

Ooooooooooo aight xD


StarWolf128

KH2 gave the impression they had a longer prior history that Roxas forgot. Then Days came along and said "nope!"


critcal-mode

Perfect? I don't know. But a really fantastic one, but with Days and the great return in KH3 i am more then glad that Roxas and Naminé are back and can hopefully live a normal life.


wedgie_queen_14

Forreal, they deserve a normal life. No wars, no manipulations, just sea salt ice cream and back shots


Lucienofthelight

>back shots excuse me.


cry_w

I feel like I'm missing something. I assumed this meant camera shots from behind, perspective-wise; is there some other meaning I'm missing? I'd assume it either has to do with shooting a gun or some kind for innuendo, if so.


a_prime98

I guess the ice cream isn’t the only thing sea salty around here.


SuperTrunkz

back shots????


FiveStagesofGRIS

It's amazing as a tragedy, and what they added in DDD only twisted the punch in the gut beautifully. Knowing that they could be themselves, that their existence could no longer be dependent on their somebodies, and yet having to fall like that... 10/10 I'd cry again


Kingswordy

i played DDD way too long ago, what happens to namine and roxas in the game?


FiveStagesofGRIS

It's how we learn that Xemnas lied about nobodies and hearts. If we think about it, Namine and Roxas did their sacrifice on the premise that they'd never be able to be "complete" without going back to Kairi and Sora. But DDD prove that premise wrong, which adds to the tragedy


Yotinaru

Until you realize that Roxas is in that situation partially because of Namine's actions. Riku sacrifice Roxas for Sora. Sora is the one he was sacrificed for. Roxas had no reason to smile at the end of KH2. I'm glad future games acknowledge how there was no way he could have been happy in his situation.


Nlolsalot

Roxas did sincerely accept his demise because he thought it was the only way for Sora to return. However, when a solution was found, it still made complete sense that Roxas would want to come back, as Sora could exist without eating him at that point.


ScarletteVera

I wholeheartedly disagree. This 'conclusion' perpetuates the idea that Nobodies can't be their own people- that they *have* to either die and/or return to the original without the chance to be their own people. We know that, even from the point of conception, Nobodies have hearts, and therefore have always been their own people (Xion being an exception, given that she was enver a 'true' Nobody, though much like Data Sora not being a 'true' person, Xion still developed a heart over time) with their own personalities and identities seperate from their other. Saying that Roxas and Namine's 'perfect conclusion' was them becoming dormant within Sora and Kairi's hearts respectively does a massive disservice to their characters, as it implies that the people they are don't have equal merit compared to their other- that their lives don't mean as much as that of a Somebody.


GlitchyReal

They don't (didn't) have the same merit. That's what was tragic about them. They were bodies split from the souls (Hearts). I know what current canon says is different now, but the concept of Nobodies being empty shells with only memories of who they used to be was so sad. If they already had Hearts, then it wouldn't be a tragedy anymore and Roxas shouldn't have even been able to return to Sora. Roxas and Namine being loopholes/glitches in how Heartless and Nobodies are made was what allowed them the "happy" ending of returning to their original selves. Roxas *is* Sora, and Namine *is* Kairi and they would have lived on through them. Of course, it doesn't work that way now, but in a vacuum of KH1, CoM, and KH2 only, it's very powerful in its bitter-sweetness.


CryptidGrimnoir

Nicely put. It's certainly laudable for Sora to be so adamant about the sanctity of life, but in general Nobodies are the leftover shell of a human who lost their heart and recompletion would be the goal. It's why Lea is so willing to be called Axel. Axel wasn't really a separate person from him. You can't have one without the other. But Sora and Roxas are distinct from each other, if only because Roxas lacked all of Sora's memories at first and had to build his own identity from scratch.


Gregamonster

>I know what current canon says is different now, but the concept of Nobodies being empty shells with only memories of who they used to be was so sad. It was also false. Provably so. Nothing about Days works if they didn't have hearts. Nothing about Axel's actions in KH2 works if they didn't have hearts. From the moment Nobodies are explained to us, we're given reason to disbelieve the premise that they don't have hearts.


GlitchyReal

They don't/didn't have hearts when KH2 launched. They had genuine memories of them. It was different. If they did have hearts, why would they all desire making a whole artificial Kingdom Hearts? I know DDD retconned this, that's not what we're talking about. The original Org. XIII believed they didn't have hearts except for Xemnas and likely Xigbar. Days came later and concretized a new understanding of canon (aka a retcon). Axel dying and kinda being okay with it, sorta apathetic but regretful, seems like someone who doesn't have a heart but is working off of a memory of one to me. It's okay for there to be a retcon but common understanding until DDD was they didn't have hearts with Days coming later to make us question if they do or not and has us wondering if it was specific for Roxas and Namine (and Xion) because they're weird in how things work otherwise.


Kwintin01

Except Roxas was emotive and DIDN'T have memories of having a heart. It was never retconned, we were just led to believe they don't have hearts.


GlitchyReal

Roxas is a dramatic exception to the rule since Sora was restored through plot hacks before Roxas was fully formed.


Kwintin01

Doesn't take away that he grew emotions without memories.


GlitchyReal

He did! And that’s part of what makes him special. It just wasn’t clear or defined as such in KH2 and his returning to Sora was portrayed as a positive. The retcon was warranted and I enjoyed it, but I also appreciate the old interpretation.


Gregamonster

Not a single thing Axel in KH2 can be explained by him pretending to have a heart. Period. If Axel was just pretending to feel then he would continue acting in his own self interest regardless of his fake feelings. Instead he risks his life trying to talk Roxas into coming back, risks his mission trying to turn Sora to darkness and bring Roxas back from the "dead", and sacrifices himself for Sora because he felt bad about having done that. There is no logic in which a being unburdened by emotion does any of those things. Hell, even pretending to have emotions is proof Nobodies have them. Truly emotionless beings would have no motivation to feign emotion. Making an artificial Kingdom Hearts to regain their hearts also proves they have them, because a being without emotion would have no reason to want emotions.


GlitchyReal

Aren't you also the person fighting me that KH was never half Final Fantasy? I see. Axel's actions make sense if you see memory of an emotion as just that, an emotion. He's not dead or hollow inside. He's just stuck on one memory of an emotion. His anger and regret. That's why he's more "evil" before he's recompleted. Everything he does is bent on getting Roxas back, no matter what. I don't think they ever said they had no emotions, just that they don't have hearts but you can check me on that. Yen Sid does say they are manipulative and pretend to have hearts, but not that they don't have emotion. Clearly, Roxas feels emotion. But also, Xemnas clearly doesn't (until the end of KH3.) The lesser Nobodies don't have emotions or hearts, I would like to think. A heart has a will of its own. A Nobody is just a husk operating on it's memory of emotion and past life. The memory is real and the emotion is real, but lacks agency of it's own. Roxas and Namine were special here because they didn't really "lose" there hearts since they're still with Sora and Kairi whom they have a direct link to. The whole CoM comatose Sora thing complicates it further so they're the exception to the rule. I'm mostly talking about original Org. XIII numbers III-XII. Of course, KH3 changes all of this and makes me completely wrong with current canon, but the OP was about how it's kinda regretful they went in a different direction. That's all. EDIT: Also, if Axel grew a new heart, then he can't be recompleted (since he already is). If he had his old one, he didn't need to be.


trimble197

I mean, yeah it was contradictory, but we had to accept it because the other games didn’t come out yet. Like GlitchyReal said, it only makes sense now cause of the retcons.


Gregamonster

1. We did not have to accept it. We were given ample evidence than the main character's understanding of Nobodies was faulty. 2. It wasn't a retcon. Nothing changed except the characters understanding in-universe.


rmorrin

I've played since the start and yeah it was implied they may have hearts but it was canon that they didn't


Gregamonster

It was canon that Sora and Co believed they didn't. Not the same thing.


trimble197

1. Uh we kinda did. Days didn’t come out until four years later. 2. Yeah it was a retcon. Retcon: a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.


yuei2

KH2FM+ came out very shortly after KH2 and…. 1. Included a scene of Roxas and Axel talking asking if Roxas really lacks a heart, Roxas proposes that it might not be so clear cut and the scene implies Roxas, Axel, and even Namine or other Nobodies may actually have hearts. 2. Changed Axel’s line in CoM in Re:CoM to better display that Axel was feeling genuine emotion for the first time in ages not just pretending. Nobodies growing hearts was ALWAYS the intent. You and the characters both are supposed to look at the contradiction and question it. Long before Days or coded the contradiction was obvious, the emotions are very clearly real and the fact Roxas and Namine persisted at all when they supposedly have no heart three things for a loop. The fan base argued and tried to come up with many explanations, I know I was there for the whole thing. “Maybe because Sora isn’t a heartless his heart could act as a heart for Roxas, and there is some kind of other side that Roxas’s stuff is stored in?” “Maybe Axel was able to connect to Roxas/Sora and use their hearts in place of their own in order to feel emotion.” “Maybe Roxas and Namine are just special nobodies cause of their birth and have hearts” “Maybe as nobodies start to fade and die their body begins to reconnect to their heart and they begin to feel true emotion again” “Maybe emotions and hearts aren’t the same thing, perhaps you can feel emotion without a heart if the emotion is strong enough” “Maybe Roxas can cry because he has Ven’s heart working for him” This list goes on and on and on, but it’s clear the fan base as a whole had picked up on that something about what we had been told about Nobodies didn’t add up. The general sentiment was their emotions were clearly real, despite what was said too many of them showed genuine emotion. To that end the fanbase argued and theorized for years to explain how one could have genuine emotion without a heart KH2FM again showing that’s 100% intentional because the characters, in-universe, go through the exact same thing. They see too many signs, feel too many genuine emotions, to believe whole sale in Xemnas’s lies. And it’s not just hearts either a lot of stuff didn’t add up. If nobodies aren’t safe in darkness and in danger of fading away why is their base so close to the dark? If they hate being empty and want hearts back why is every. single. thing. named to remind them of their empty miserable existence? What really is the point of their stealth, they are really bad at to an almost hilarious degree and being spotted doesn’t seem to mess up anything? That latter one was such a reoccurring joke the Days manga and stuff like “Kingdumb Hearts” made fun of it. This is JUST CoM/KH2/KH2FM+/Re:CoM. No days, coded, bbs, DDD, or KH3. There was no retcon, there was an extremely well executed mystery. As early as CoM we were given contradictions from Axel’s laughter, Namine’s sadness, Zexion and Vexen’s fear. KH2 deepened the contradictions and then KH2FM and Re:CoM added big blinking neon signs of the characters trying to understand the contradictions while telling the player “hey hey do what they do and think about this more”. Every subsequent game would only build further and DDD Nomura felt it was time to finally lay the mystery to rest having run its course.


trimble197

You’re really bringing up FM when I’m sure most people didn’t play it until the remastered came out. And then Re:CoM came out three years later. The fact you said Axel’s line was changed should tell you something.


Kwintin01

I don't think Nobodies having no hearts was ever canon. The concept was kinda contradicted in the game it was introduced.


GlitchyReal

Nobodies were originally half of a person with an exceptionally strong heart. The other half was their heart. The heart is taken captive by a Heartless when they fall to darkness. The heartless husk left behind is a Nobody. They can be recompleted when their heart is freed from their Heartless and the autonomy of their Nobody. Nobodies by their very concept cannot have hearts (unless they grow a new separate one.)


Kwintin01

And then we learn they can grow hearts through experiences and suddenly a whole lot of truly unexplainable things start to make sense.


GlitchyReal

We do! And things do definitely make a different kind of sense. I’m only defending appreciating what we knew if the series ended with KH2.


DarkStarr7

They understood what they were and found happiness in a bad situation. That was a more mature ending than they coming back and living happily ever after. Not everyone needs a happy ending.


JustAGuyBeingADud3

My sibling in light this is a DISNEY game. Happy endings for everyone is par for the course, and I for one love it.


GlitchyReal

It's also a FINAL FANTASY game and sad endings are par for the course.


ComicDude1234

…For maybe three games in the entire main series, two of which were heavily criticized for being bad conclusions. This is not the point you think you’re making.


GlitchyReal

I don’t know how to address all this. Either y’all are misunderstanding me (KH is just as much FF as it is Disney, at least originally) or there’s been some revision going on in the fandom. Also, to your edit, I was being facetious. Disney and FF brand differently so the point was moot from the get-go. Edit: Also, re:Coded’s Olympus Colosseum was basically just FF for whatever that’s worth.


ComicDude1234

Well that just suggests your arguments about the “sad endings” is disingenuous and you’re just arguing for the sake of it. Doesn’t change how Nobodies as early as CoM were still being shown to have Hearts even if the games wanted to keep the mystery going for a while. Edit: Lol I got blocked for telling the truth.


DarkStarr7

Most kh games had a sad ending. Only kh2 and DDD didn't from what I remember.


MommyScissorLegs

it is not a final fantasy game


GlitchyReal

If it's not a Final Fantasy game, then it's also not a Disney/Pixar game.


XxAndrew01xX

That's not how that works. A Final Fantasy game would actually be named...well...Final Fantasy. A Disney game is simply just made by Disney. Of course Kingdom Hearts is developed by Sqaure Enix, it still has majority of Disney over Final Fantasy.


GlitchyReal

Just like a Disney movie is named... Disney? Look. A lot of the same devs that worked on FF worked on KH. We all know this. A lot of the mechanics are pulled from FF. Spell names are directly from it. Characters wholesale are from it. It’s a crossover of FF and Disney (or at least started this way.) Why is that contentious?


MommyScissorLegs

It is not a Final Fantasy game. You are comparing franchises with developers, which makes no sense. Kingdom Hearts is a Disney and Square Enix IP, not a part of the Final Fantasy franchise.


GlitchyReal

I never said it was part of the franchise. It’s a Final Fantasy spin-off kinda like Bravely Default or to a much lesser extent how Secret of Mana used to be Final Fantasy Adventure. I think it’d be silly to say they’re not intrinsically related.


XxAndrew01xX

What mechanics from FF are brought into KH? I only ask this because FF at the time of KH1 release was turn base RPG, while KH was/still is action hack N slash RPG. Yeah spell names might be taken from FF, but that doesn't mean it is an FF game, so much as it's just being used as more FF fanservice. Remember FF wasn't even supposed to be in KH, and only came into being because higher up's at Sqaure thought the game wouldn't sell without FF characters. In fact this is even more apparent when you take into account that Disney in KH is prominent in the overall KH lore and story than FF is. Which...is why we still don't see FF worlds in KH, (Even Yozora and his whole deal in KH3 has yet to be fully expanded on) and the characters of FF aren't even like their original counterparts like the Disney characters are. Especially every FFX character aside from Auron in KH2. Edit: Also no. A Disney movie would not be named Disney. Disney Is just the company. Where as Final Fantasy is an actual series name made by a company. Sqaure Enix (Sqauresoft from FFI up to FFX). If anything you would be on the money by saying KH is a Sqaure Enix game (With also being a Disney game of course), because by that logic BOTH Dragon Quest AND Nier Automata are Final Fantasy games. Because they are also Sqaure Enix.


Gregamonster

Kingdom Hearts was never a Final Fantasy game. It borrowed some Final Fantasy characters in early entries because it didn't have a large enough cast of original characters. Nothing more.


GlitchyReal

That's why 90% of the mechanics were lifted from FF just in ARPG-style. Yep.


j0kerclash

But what they were is a misconception, they deserve to exist just like any other characters because they're able to grow their own hearts. The only reason they think they aren't supposed to exist is because of ignorance, ending it with them accepting they aren't supposed to exist validates the misconception about them thematically.


DarkStarr7

Nobodies growing a heart was established in DDD. At this point it wasn't a thing


j0kerclash

It could have been a retcon, but kh2 doesn't shy away from the question of if they do have hearts or not, they handwave it by saying they're just pretending, but if you understand how hearts are built in the first place ( through memories, looking at CoM and KH3) then it becomes clear that in 358/days, they obviously do have hearts, or at least were on their way to forming them simply because they were forming memories with each other that were altering their character. Axel wouldn't have got as mad as he did fighting xion in days if he didn't have a heart, and zexion and vexen wouldn't have showed fear when they were being assassinated, having a heart allows characters to change, and roxas was a hollow shell for the first week, before forming an actual personality, and his personality doesn't behave like either Sora or Ven. Kh2 itself was all over the place with this question, cause Demyx was implied to have been pretending when he suddenly goes cold after acting aloof and saying that nobodies do have hearts, but there are other examples of the opposite being true, so no doubt they left a hook for Demyx that they will connect to later.


Gregamonster

Nobodies growing a heart was spelled out for you in DDD. Nobodies having hearts was apparent to everyone paying attention as early as KH2.


Soul699

Not even. Remember in CoM when Axel was legit surprised how he was ENJOYING the situation of Naminé leaving?


Gregamonster

Nope I never bothered with Sora's side of CoM. My brother beat it first and I just played Riku's side.


Frederyk_Strife4217

358 established it, DDD just spelled it out


spacecadetkaito

Just because a plot element was only directly stated in a later game doesn't mean that it wasn't an idea until that point. It's very clear from the beginning that nobodies can reform their hearts over time, even if we didn't know that's what was happening, because of all the nobodies blatantly expressing emotion in ways where it'd be a major stretch to believe that they're faking it. It's obvious that a lot of KH is planned game by game, but that doesn't mean all of it is, and it isn't much of a leap to think that this reveal was planned early on and not some abrupt retcon like some people seem to think, considering how major it is and how much it makes sense.


yuei2

KH2FM+ (The scene switches to the Twilight Town clock tower, where Roxas it sitting with his head in his lap. He looks up partly) ????: Look who's finally awake. (He gasps and turns to see Axel standing beside him) Roxas: Axel. Axel: Or...maybe I have it wrong. Might be time to sleep. Soon we won't be able to talk like this anymore. (Roxas looks down) Roxas: Does that mean it's time for me to go back to where I belong? (Axel sits down next to him. Roxas listens intently) Axel: You know, I've been thinking about something Naminé said. Roxas... are you really sure that you don't have a heart? Is it possible that we all have one? You, me, her... Or is that just wishful thinking? Roxas: I don't know. (He looks down again) Roxas: I can't...just look inside. Axel: Y-yeah, I guess not... Roxas: But I figure...if there is something in there--inside us--then we'd feel it, wouldn't we? And if so... No... Nevermind. Axel: C'mon. Don't leave me hangin'. Roxas: Sora will find the answer we're looking for. I know he will. Because, he's me. Axel: True enough. —— To translate: Axel: Do we really not have hearts, is it possible all the nobodies that showed contradictions actually have them? Or am I just being wishful. Roxas: I don’t know, we’d feel a heart inside us right and so maybe these emotions this whole time are evidence we have hearts, but I don’t want get our hopes up let’s trust Sora to answer this for us. This has been the plan since KH2’s days. DDD is finally answering it after we got nearly a a decade more evidence to support it, and DDD is the fulfillment of what Roxas said. That Sora would find the answer.


J723

It was a thing since 358


HijonoYoki

Wow. You actually got the point of this scene! I had to go on an essay on someone. Oh, thank goodness somebody got the implication.


Gregamonster

Even if we pretend two whole people with their own opinions, friendships, and identities being consumed by their "parents" is a satisfying conclusion to their stories, it's irrelevant because their return wasn't for their own stories, it was for Sora's. KH3 is about Sora being sick of bittersweet endings and tragedy. He fights with all his heart to fix every single cosmic injustice he hears about, even Kairi's actual death. And though sheer strength of heart, he manages it. Roxas, Namine, and Xion get to be their own people. Tera, Aqua, and Ven are together again in the realm of light. Kairi is straight up brought back from the dead. Sora spits in the face of the very laws of the universe to give everyone the happy endings he felt they deserved deserved, and the universe spits back and kills him in the end.


Mega-Analyzer

Was Kairi actually ever dead, or was she hanging on by a thread, like Sora? In the first encounter in the Keyblade Graveyard in KH3, everyone is seemingly wiped out by the darkness, yet Sora somehow "survived" in the Final World, resembling his former self. It was explained that Kairi had used her unique powers to keep him tethered to existence, so that he may have a chance to set things right. How could she have done that for him if already dead? Maybe that is just a more technical way of looking at it... In the altered timeline where everyone survived that encounter with the darkness, Kairi is later struck down by Xehanort, seemingly gone for good. We then learn that Xehanort had separated her heart into several fragments, as part of a contingency plan to bait Sora. When her heart fragments are brought back together, she is recompleted. The one detail that eludes me, though, is how her body was restored, too. Agreed with everything else you said, though. Sora's friends and acquaintances all deserved happy endings, after every tragedy and misfortune they had experienced. If Roxas, Namine, and even Xion's stories had all ended in Days/KH2, their character arcs would have seemed incomplete. It is much more meaningful to have them back in the story, so they can continue growing into their own persons, IMO.


GlitchyReal

I agree. The tragedy of never existing, but having a brief glimmer of life before returning to their original self while some part of them will live on... Beautiful in it's bitter-sweetness.


Oicanet

There's also the idea that regular nobodies fade out of existence, but Roxas and Namine had their somebodies to return to and coexist. I saw it as them getting to returning to their complete selves. It is bitter-sweet, as they don't get to be their own individuals, but if you interpret the ending as them becoming themselves again instead of them being absorbed and forgotten into their somebodies, I'd say there's very little bitterness. Of course, that's not what the series ended up going with, but I feel that was the intent during KH2 at least


Cosmonerd-ish

People do realize there's nothing beautiful or noble in this right? Roxas was sacrificed at the altar of Sora to bring him back, not of his own volition. Even back in KH2, with all the biased people telling you Nobodies don't feel and are not real you still had Axel Roxas and Namine very much showing emotions. This isn't acceptance, it's them giving up after the whole world told them they didn't deserve to exist and trying to find a silver lining. I'm glad they gave them a second chance. They were robbed and in the end even Roxas's murderer felt guilt and thought he shouldn't have done it.


ComicDude1234

I like how KH fans seem to have decided that just because something is kinda sad that means it’s better than not being sad. We really are just stuck in the early 2010s over here.


GrayPhoenix42

Not at all. Even when I was a kid and I had barely known Roxas for the hour and change he was actually on screen, I liked him better than Sora. Then Days came out and made him even greater. Now, as an adult I see how important it is to recognize individuality and not lump people together. Especially after Days came out and showed us how hard Roxas, Namine, Xion, and all the Nobodies fight so hard to be their own people. Being "made whole" is just as bad as telling him "he's not a person" and he "doesn't exist". Clearly my man exists and has made a substantial impact on the world. Ironically, it would have been a really bad ending if we had only known Roxas and Namine for that little bit in CoM and 2 and the franchise ended there, but when the writers continued the franchise they backtrack on all of the sacrifices the characters make in the spin off games. I'm a little torn on bringing back the BBS crew, as their struggles are what start and tie into Sora's journey and it's done really well. But the nobodies? Bring em back, make em people, make more spin offs. Roxas's story would've been tragic from beginning to end if he'd just given up his individuality and gone back to Sora. I just hope in future games they give Namine more character. She really needs it. Even Kairi has the fallback of "being a tomboy back in KH1", but Namine really has nothing.


austindoujin23

I was more confused than anything by that ending. Like other people pointed out, they barely knew each other and had maybe 5 minutes of screen time together and it was all business. I was convinced there was a layer to their story that would be explained in Days only to be given Xion instead.


joscho13

I always assumed because of who they are - Sora and Kairi’s nobodies - they were born with a weird attachment to each other simply because Sora and Kairi love each other. Once we got Days and met Xion I think story-wise they ignored Namine and Roxas’ connection, but I like to think they’re still special to each other in a way (although maybe not a full reflection of Sora and Kairi anymore).


Clurrie_8_9

I have felt this way too. The only way I can justify it was that Namine was the only person who was honest with Roxas about who he was, but even then this is still a stretch.


yuei2

It’s not, it’s what Roxas tells Axel as he leaves the organization. He says friends are honest with one another, and that because of Axel’s lies he can’t trust him or see him as a friend right now. He goes on to say there is someone out there who will give him the answers and that will be the person he trusts, that will be his friend, and players watching that are supposed to understand he’s talking about Namine. As she will be that friend. Namine in reverse we see has been watching Roxas for a long time, his whole life, which brings new context to why she wanted to meet him at least once. Namine is kindred with Roxas, he’s effectively both a kindred spirit & her sibling, and she’s had to watch him grow without her and at the same time witness how much hurt she put him through making her feel incredibly guilty. Especially as she had all the answers Roxas needed. Days didn’t ignore their connection, but it had to work in the confines of what KH2 had already established. KH2 established they had never met until the data twilight town incident, that means Namine and Roxas can never meet or interact during Days. With those confines they needed to make clear why the meeting and connection between the two was strong. So Roxas’s story builds him up to seeking out Namine, he doesn’t know it’s Namine yet but we the player know she ends up being the person he is seeking. Namine’s story focuses on building an increasing longing to make things right with Roxas and his friends as she watches from afar, and the depressing reality she knows she can’t. Xion acts as the middle ground that makes Roxas fear and question his existence, that makes him realize Axel lies, and thus why Roxas needs answers and can’t trust Axel so he must seek someone else. For Namine Xion’s existence and the suffering it inflicts on Roxas is effectively her main mistake, the way in which Namine largely hurt Roxas to deepen her desire to meet and set things right in what little ways she can.


LordRupertMK

This was akin to someone dying and being “happy” because their organs will love on. Except the part where the “donator” was forced to die and brainwashed (so his will was already tainted) then fell for the one who brainwashed him (who was forced to do it) and the receptor would have never allowed it to happen. It is definitely a conclusion, a depressing one but I would never call it a perfect one, not even a satisfying one.


chroniclechase

no it isnt they were used and discarded like tools sora and kairi gave them a new chance to start over


Raine577

I feel it would have been a good end for them had Xion not been put in the equation. But with her story mixed with Roxas, it felt as though Roxas still had business to attend to.


ItsAllSoup

Maybe if 358 wasn't a thing. But Roxas being with his friends again is my favorite part of 3


leigonlord

"I cant beat sora, i guess i have no choice but to go and die then"


PlantRevolutionary82

I disagree it’s too tragic I know it’s suppose to be but it isn’t right for both of them


keybladesrus

I absolutely disagree. I could see an argument for it if Days never existed, but I'd still disagree for the reasons multiple people in these comments have explained. But how anybody could see this as a satisfying conclusion to Roxas's story after Days is far beyond me.


NateTheSuperGreat

I’m fully with you on this one, mate. I still thought the true end in KH3 was nice, but I loved the bittersweet, happy, and hopeful conclusion they had in KH2. Kind of reminds me of Tidus at the end of FFX.


Lord_Raxyn

Roxas and Namine together don't really have a story, they interacted like 4 times. The way it was framed in this scene felt really out of place. Two unique individuals losing their existence and grasping at straws to try and feel ok with it isn't the ending I would choose tbh.


Zerothrei

I ship them for a reason. It's a tad forced yes. But I think it's cute. This not a happy ending though, because kh3 shows namine was still conscious during her time merged with Kairi. Same goes with roxas in sora That sounds miserable having your own wants and desires and being unable to act upon them


YeazetheSock

I support this ship.


TSCole153

I think the deaths being final (i think that was the original intent) is kinda bad writing. In KH1 it was shown you could separate hearts from the body to rearrange them. In KH2 (and Days even more so) it is heavily hinted that Nobodies do have the ability to gain hearts. Sora isn't the kinda character who would be okay with Roxas's and Namine's "deaths". Even if Sora being able to release his and Kairi's hearts in KH1 was a one time thing, Sora would still probably try to find another way to release the two Nobodies' hearts. Not to mention that instead of actually dying, Roxas and Namine are stuck watching thru the eyes of Sora and Kairi, that sounds like a really messed up way to live.


Savage_Nymph

Still my personal OTP since I was kid.


analdelrey-

When I was 9 I disagreed shit made me cry for days lol (because I wanted it to be the other way around lol in my mind Roxas and Namine were OP lmfao)


AbeoAttack

See I'd agree with this if a running theme of KH isn't hope, and that tragedies usually aren't the end of characters. Roxas is in a pseudo-Shadow the Hedgehog situation. They could have kept him "dead" with light cameos even through 3 but between Nomura's ideas and fan reception obviously he couldn't stay "dead". So no, this isn't "perfect". It was a good conclusion for KH2, but as we know Nomura has a way of setting up grand plots for characters that are revealed further down the line, (i.e. Roxas, Ventus, Xehanort)


DarkStarr7

Nomura literally said in a recent interview that the intended story was to keep roxas dead but because of fan requests he had to bring him back. It was nothing more than fan service.


AbeoAttack

I didn't wanna assume but then that literally makes this a shadow situation


RareD3liverur

How do you take those DDD, ( I believe it was that game) scenes of Yen Sid being like "Perhaps Sora can even bring back, those we thought were lost forever" That seems kinda contradictory to that interview. Unless you thought he only was referring to the Wayfinder Trio Also if you want Roxas to remain 'dead' as it were would you want the same for Axel? Cause I'd admit between the choices of all of them being gone, or Axel / Lea being a depressed lonely survivor out of that friend group. I'd pick the former


DarkStarr7

The interview was talking about while he was developing kingdom hearts 3 so what ever was said in ddd couldn't have been referring to roxas. Axel coming back made sense because his nobody died and he was restored. Granted, based on how he died in 2 I think he shouldn't have come back.


wormywils

Agree.


fluffyoverlord77

Personally I never got the romantic connection between namine and roxas. I always thought they more so just trauma bonded in the data scape. I think the connection between her and repku was way deeper. Like other commenters have said I think it was very much just their bonds as a reflection of the bonds sora and kairi have.


[deleted]

Dude, Roxas and Naminé have no chemistry. Everyone saying they’re in love is only looking at them as their others. Which is pretty unfair considering the entire point of Roxas’ story is that he’s NOT Sora. He’s his own heart. Plus Naminé seems to have way more chemistry with Riku Replica to me.


DarkStarr7

This post has nothing to do with them being in love, it's regarding how they "died"


[deleted]

Gotcha. From the sounds of comments, it’s seems like ppl think it’s the perfect closure because they get to be together. Which is nonsense because Roxas wanted nothing more than to live. Without Roxas’ return Xion is never remembered and Axel lost his best friend. Naminé never gets her thank you or to see Riku again. It’s not really good closure for anyone in my opinion. :/


HijonoYoki

You sound personally triggered and mad though. Lol. Naminè doesn't love Riku Replica. Nothing confirms this, even in-game. Also, no one is in love with anyone. Roxas and Naminè have romantic undertones and that's why they were shipped and why some found it "forced", but as we speak, I do not believe or think they are in love with each other. A curiosity, interest maybe, but just friends. Also, this is your personal opinion that they don't have chemistry. I don't know why but this post and reaction is just so weird. Just say you ship something else.


[deleted]

Sorry Im going through some stuff rn man. I didn’t mean it to be offensive.


HijonoYoki

Just...don't take ships too seriously like that, it can get unhealthy. Good luck.


[deleted]

I don’t actually ship anyone from kingdom hearts but thank you!


[deleted]

Thank you! Roxas existed still in Sora and Namine in Kairi. Roxas accepted his part in the story here and Namine accepted hers in CoM. They were both at peace.


GlitchyReal

And grateful for having the chance to live a short independent life, even if it wasn't where they belonged.


Xannon99182

Their return was purely fan service and the only thing that actually made Roxas unique was the fact that Sora had 2 hearts. So Roxas didn't actually "grow" a heart but instead was a temporary vessels for Ven's heart due to Sora forcibly releasing Kairi and his hearts (and by proxy Ven's too). Then because Sora was brought back from a heartless based on the understanding of the dynamic between heartless and nobodies (both halves have to be destroyed to become whole again) there shouldn't have been a nobody of Sora. This is why Roxas looks and acts like Ven not Sora, because he was never actually Sora's nobody.


venxvan

Ven and Sora act more alike then Ven and Roxas.


LucisPerficio

Nah I'm glad Roxas got Xion so Riku could be shipped w/ Naminé


GrayPhoenix42

based and best ship pilled


SnooHabits3068

Except for when you play days you can tell namine was in a way trying to slip into the gap xion left.(yes days came out after but "so we can be together again!" When they haven't even met til the virtual twilight town? Even back in 2 it seems to imply she was trying to kind of work her way into roxas's past cause she wasn't there to begin with. Or at least that's the implication I got)


xSocksman

Yeah… but also I don’t absolutely hate the KH3 ending. As long as it remains an ending, IMO everyone’s story is done except the main trio and the Disney characters. I always see these posts about “How is X going to help Sora” or something and I just don’t think they will, their battle is over, it isn’t needed, let them rest. They might not be fully gone from the series but I don’t think they need to inherently participate in the events of the new arc. Let new characters shine. Maybe develop Kairi into something better, give Riku something other than a car key, we already saw Donald and Goofy, plus you know they are as much apart of a trio as anyone else.


Entruh

They barely knew each other I don't agree


ratman1996

Agreed


Low_Zucchini_8119

I understand this viewpoint. And I understand the viewpoint of those who felt 3 was the perfect conclusion. This might sound f*cking weird, but hear me out please. Personally, I think Roxas' and Namine's restoration should have been it's own game. People are trying to help them return as themselves, and in this sort of dream world, (maybe like DDD idk) they travel to different worlds, forging their own experiences and learning more about themselves, while setting a clear distinction between themselves and their somebodies. I understand having a whole game centered around this might be a bit much. Just my three cents though lol


M-vq35

Same and I love kh3 don’t get me wrong but at the end when Namine awakened I feel like it should have been Roxas not Riku that went to see her


joscho13

I always liked their ending in KH2. I see other peoples point though - bringing them back allowed them to be their own characters and not a plot device simply for Sora. Which is fair. But I just loved the bittersweet end for them KH2 gave us - just felt more serious and amplified that not everyone gets a happy ending. But I personally am a sucker for a sad ending (part of the reason why I loved kh3 and Sora disappearing). I don’t hate the concept of them coming back but it feels a lot less punchy and even the way they came back was a bit of a stretch in my eyes.


[deleted]

[удалено]


HijonoYoki

Literally allowed Diz to abuse her Riku? O.o


MommyScissorLegs

Meh, KH3 makes it happier so it’s better.


seasalt0240

The correct take


REOrulz

Disagree, they were both too strong of characters to be offed in just their second appearance. If Nomura never did anything with them after the fact it would've been more disappointing than not. Also as many people have already stated already, they're their own characters. In a game where identity and independence is a heavy theme in Roxas' character it makes little sense to remove him from the series just to service Sora.


[deleted]

>In a game where identity and independence is a heavy theme in Roxas' character it makes little sense to remove him from the series just to service Sora. This 1000%


XenoGine

Oh how things change...


Wings-of-Loyalty

3 is a shit show, dead characters should stay dead to not fuck up other Charakters. Bringing Xion back ruined Roxas and together they killed axel. Likewise terra and aqua should have been dead after bbs


DarkStarr7

Disagree on the terra and Aqua part.


sleepnandhiken

I agree. I might agree less if they were more than props after their resurrection. Like they just show up in 3. A big emotional scene of them showing up is quite literally all they do in 3. Which makes it not emotionally satisfying at all.


X-blade14

Hard agree, the whole point of nobodies before retcons came along was that they were empty former shells doomed to fade into nothingness since thier hearts were gone after their body perishes. Namine and roxas were lucky because they were glitches that never should existed (remember before retcons a nobody was supposed to be memories of their somebody not have real personalities like namine and roxas), so the fact they got to return to where they belong and not fade into nothingness was a good feeling. Even more so because its implied (again before retcons) that nobodies were still continuations of their previous lives which explains why roxas had those senses of deja vu when interacting with riku or in the case alot of comments complaining with Namine and his relationship. Gets even weirder because now that these characters are back what can they even do, at least when they were apart of sora and Kairi that could have made for an interesting dynamic of lea and xion being friends with sora (which also goes back to how nobodies were a continuation and not necessarily "new people" because lea/axel and organization still saw sora as roxas) plus character development sice sora would remember his other half's experiences. Or had sora reasonably channel roxas abilities since they were now whole again, on some bbs ventus vs vanitus final battle type stuff. Heck quadratum could have been an even better place to explore this since thats where things go that un-exist.


XenoMuffin

It was a great ending, honestly I feel like the two of them should have stayed gone. They also should have left xion dead as well, I like her design but realistically she has no character. She’s a hollow shell with someone else’s memories and like 5 memories of her own, KH3 acting like she’s a full character felt like the biggest stretch to me, and I’m pretty sure they only brought her back because their obsessed with trios for some reason


Bowls-of-sprouts

kh3: What if I just slap a big ol’ “no longer canon” sticker on that?


FamilyCanidae

Touching yes, but… “ I see myself the way you remember me, and you see yourself the way I remember you.” …wat.


HijonoYoki

As long as they remember who each other are, they will still exist even when "gone". They will see each other "through" Sora and Kairi. Does that make sense? I wonder if the Japanese makes it more direct...


FreshBakedButtcheeks

How long are they actually together? Sora and Kairi are apart a whole lot


Ablubes1210

Another lifeless post for karma


dstanley17

I mean, if you're like DiZ and just want to be prejudice against Nobodies, than sure? I guess. But as they are their own people, with their own thoughts, feelings, emotions and sense of self: this ending is one of the most horrifying things you could ever do to any character ever.


RealToasted

I agree with you, OP. As much as I enjoy the series, I always advise newcomers that if they've had their fill by the end of KH2, it's the perfect stopping point. It has the most satisfying ending in the series, and provides a bittersweet tragedy in the forms of Roxas and Namine. At that point, all conflicts had been resolved and anything afterwards is part of the extended lore of the greater saga.