From the desk of JBP
By - Ahyesclearly
Dane here. Our government ended ALL covid restrictions three days ago, since we now have enough vaccinated that the epidemic is under control.
The vaccine is totally voluntary, the unvaccinated and vaccinated have the same rights. Those unvaccinated are just at a much higher risk of requiring hospital admission (we have a steady, but manageable stream of covid patients) - but it's their choice.
Our authorities really did the right thing in building trust - they were always honest, and made a clear distinction between what the science said and what was political decisions (they were mostly in sync, but stuff like economy and lack of knowledge called for more political decisions).
I never see any news about how the Danes and Swedes are handling this. When I go searching for the info, it's a lot of what you shared. It's a respectable and reasonable approach.
The term is pragmatic approach (in case you're wondering)
It's significantly easier when your population willing vaccinates itself to 70% with zero incentives required.
And when the government doesn't begin the messaging with a lie, that helps a lot.
That’s what I just can’t wrap my head around, assuming that you are referring to fauci telling the nation that masks are useless. Simply from a PR point of view, why would you keep the guy who just admitted to knowingly lying to literally the entire nation as the guy to discuss vaccine safety and efficacy? It just boggles my mind.
Really, it was the timing of the pandemic that fucked the US response.
We'd just gone through 3 years of baseless piss dossiers, a highly contentious Russian collusion scandal, little kids in cages (still in those cages...) and countless other highly political partisan attacks coming from both sides of the aisle.
Trust for our government was at an all time low. Especially concerning conservatives view towards the DNC. We were deeply divided as a country. Then this pandemic shows up, and kinda smells like another over-exaggerated nightmare scenario, and it's immediately politicized, further deepening the divide and distrust for those on the other side of the political spectrum in our country.
It's no wonder our response was so fucked.
Explain to me how, me getting a vaccine, helps you, according to the information we have of the current coof vaccine.
[Fully vaccinated people with "breakthrough" COVID Delta infections carry as much virus as the unvaccinated](https://www.ndm.ox.ac.uk/files/coronavirus/covid-19-infection-survey/finalfinalcombinedve20210816.pdf)
[But you dont need me to save you, you only need to turn off the tv](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/09/covid-hospitalization-numbers-can-be-misleading/620062/)
[because not even them are counting anymore](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/27/1000933529/cdc-approach-to-breakthrough-infections-sparks-concerns)
>Stopped counting mild/asymptomatic cases 1 month before Delta took off
>All 3 Vaccines are actually closer to 44% effective at preventing infection, not 97%
If someone wanted me to take the vaccine, the last thing they should have done is lie, lie, lie, lie and lie some more then threaten me with lies and lie again.
Op mentioned that at 70% vaxxed the lockdowns and mandates stopped in his country, Biden mentioned america is in 75% but he is doing the opposite now trying to force the vaccine in people.
[Why? Why do pharma said they stopped with the "control" group](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/969143015/long-term-studies-of-covid-19-vaccines-hurt-by-placebo-recipients-getting-immuni)
If the vaxxine is so effective and covid so deadly why the constant lie
It's because of the idiots who have been sabotaging the national effort every step of the way. The us could be ending its restriction and have no crisis in hospitals, but the exteme right sabotaged efforts every step of the way.
So its the peoples fault because they are not obedient to the government?
Im sorry for you
Bro he is clearly not arguing in good faith. Anybody asking "but how do we know the vaccines help against covid" in September 2021 is either intentionally dishonest or severely brainwormed. We can only hope ivermectin works on brain parasites
So do you always turn off your ears to an argument when you deem it to be "not in good faith" then proceed to view their comment history so you can fully ad hominem their position
He's actually mentally ill. Check out the post history for a laugh.
Your standard antivaxxer everybody.
That is why in the United States it was incredibly stupid for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris to throw Trump under the bus when it came to the vaccines. Then flip-flop on positions regularly. The last straw is trying to mandate by diktat. I hope the states fight back and strike this dictator’s mandates down.
Incentives and threats can indeed both undermine trust by making you feel tricked or forced into vaccinating.
Not really throw under the bus, but Trump could've handled COVID situation a bit seriously...not saying Biden or Harris did better.
Saying they wouldn’t trust Trump when it came to the vaccines and calling it a rush job and cutting corners just undermines people’s confidence in the vaccines, just like Joe’s idiotic statements when he say he needs to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated right after he gave stats on the vaccine. Obama is right we he said, “Don't underestimate Joe's ability to fuck things up.”
Not only that, but they incessantly claimed that there was no plan and that Trump didn't order enough vaccines , etc etc. It's all lies.
Worst still, Biden and Fauci both said there SHOULDN’T be any mandates not too long ago.
It's quite obvious neither of them (including Harris) are calling ng the shots. Question is, who is?
What percentage of Danes are vaccinated?
74% as per September 12. That percentage is out of the entire population, including newborns and small kids that we don't plan to vaccinate. I \*think\* it's around 80% if you exclude those, but I haven't checked.
Thanks. That explains why the hammer isn't being brought down.
That’s very very close to the level of the US. The hammer is being brought down for politics.
That's not true. Only 59% of the US population is fully vaccinated. Less than 27% of black Americans are fully vaccinated.
I agree the hammer is being brought down for politics. But the ~70% vaccinated target is also political. Once it's achieved globally, the target will move and the Danes will be in the same boat as everyone else.
Make no mistake, they won't stop until the clotshot has touched every man, woman, and child on the planet.
That's a Thomas Sowell avatar. Respect.
We're at about 50% of eligible adults in the usa. And we do not have a steady stream we have hospitals at max capacity and many areas with no ICU beds available for miles.
Many unvaccinated people also refuse to take other precautions such as wearing a mask in large gatherings. Seems unreasonable if you ask me. So now the government is forced to take drastic actions to deal with unreasonable people who are crippling entire hospital systems.
As for the original post. I don't really care about their trust anymore. I worked the ICUs in Texas during the first big wave of covid. Fact is the anti-vaxer, antimask covid hoaxers are puting everyone else at risk and creating a healthcare crisis.
Since everyone here loves JP and his facts+logic mindset. Tell me what the logical choice is if these people won't take any precautions to stop a virus from spreading and threatening us all? I don't see any other choice but to ostracize them from the rest of us reasonable people who want to get this virus under control
Would be interesting if some of your downvoters (not me) had arguments. If it is not clear, we had similar restrictions in Denmark too depending on the circumstances - basically you got vaccinated or you got tested or you stayed away from indoor leisure.
I'm not sure what else your government can do - it's really hard to gain trust in an environment where lies have already been told (by previous government and by rampant misinformation campaigns).
I agree it would be interesting if the downvotes would actually engage in the debate.
I'd also like to add that it's not just previous governments that have lied, if you're talking about America. There is no shortage of reasons to distrust American governments period. I'm in support of vaccinations because I trust the broad scientific community, because I understand (basically) how science works. But I have very little trust for our governments and do not think they're of sufficient moral integrity to not lie to the people they govern for their own political or financial gain. You'd have to be a fool to think that's the case
>I agree it would be interesting if the downvotes would actually engage in the debate.
Probably because there is no rationale behind politicizing a virus. The evidence is there. People are dying. ICUs are full. It's not going away. It's mutated already.
Clearly something needs to be done or it spreads more or mutates again.
They didn't want to wear masks, they didnt want to social distance, now they don't want to take the vaccine that prevents the need for either of those things. Despite overwhelming evidence it works and hundreds of millions of us "Guinea pigs" who've gone first world wide.
Do they just intend to ignore reasonable safety precautions while the bodies rack up?
That sounds like a logical outcome. Not in MY AMERICUH DAMMNIT.
That really shows the power of trust in a society. It's unfortunate that trust has eroded so much in the US that it doesn't seem like there is much the government or anyone else can do to salvage it.
> Those unvaccinated are just at a much higher risk of requiring hospital admission (we have a steady, but manageable stream of covid patients) - but it's their choice.
I disagree. Their actions have consequences on the rest of the population, so it's not that simple, it's not just their choice, it's other people's suffering because of it. Something must be done, governments must find something to push these people to take the vaccine.
I know this is not exactly a popular opinion here, but that's my take on it. There are clear signs the vaccine works. Also it's not harmful. This is a clear case for a restriction on individual liberties for the good of others. Health is above all that.
I neither agree nor disagree with you. It's always a balance between liberties and safety (and more), and at the moment Danes are in a position where we can have almost unlimited liberty and still be healthy - earlier, we weren't, so the unvaccinated were inconvenienced a bit by either having to test or stay away from public indoor leisure, basically. Just saying I rarely deal in absolutes - health above ALL is not sensible, neither is liberty above ALL.
In our specific situation, forcing the vaccine on absolutely everyone who isn't allergic, to gain just a tiny smidgeon more on health was rated overkill. Also importantly, force could also severely jeopardise the trust that has benefited us so so much. It's a balance, and of course different people will lean away to each side of it, but I think it's a sensible one.
Controversy just arises because people perceive and value the benefits and costs of specific liberty/health tradeoffs differently.
Same with Portugal, although only vaccinated people can eat inside of restaurants at the weekend
I’m a dumbass and thought your name was Dane at first.
[I stumbled across this podcast today that brings up exactly what you pointed out.](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-david-pakman-show/id402050558?i=1000535207235). He mentions Denmark’s achievement. The US is on a fast track from being top on vaccination to being bottom - out of all the wealthy countries. Just as it has in many categories across the board in comparison to the more rationale west.
Pretty much the same here in the UK.
Government ended all restrictions months ago and the only restriction left is the very, very limited 'vaccine passport' for the busiest venues and we had a tiny, tiny spike in hosspitalisations and deaths (which quickly rectified itself) and covid cases been coming down for months.
Denmark and Sweden have a smaller population than New Jersey and are much more ethnically and politically homogenous. That definitely helps.
>since we now have enough vaccinated that the epidemic is under control.
Problem is, that's a lie. All the leaky vaccine does is create a population of silent spreaders.... just watch. (I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it)
Sorry, I don't trust people with no credentials as scientific advisors, especially not people using dramatic language.
Edit: I was too harsh. Yes - now that everyone is mingling, life probably became more dangerous for the unvaccinated. You may be right. But the vaccinated are way less contagious (measured per person) and get less sick if they do get infected, so silent spreading might not be as bad as it sounds.
There's not *that* much "wait and see" about it either. We have been monitoring closely over several months while more and more got vaccinated and restrictions were gradually loosened. I think we are the country that did the most testing of all.
Still, the situation might change of course, for multiple reasons. We are seeing *some* increase in hospital admissions, but it's extremely slow for now.
Is Danish language misinformation pretty common? Said another way… is fake news often created in Danish?
I don't really know how to quantify it or compare it to other countries objectively. There certainly are some die hard sceptics doing their own research (with no scientific training for the most part, it seems, and also a small handful of sceptic doctors - and I do mean it's probably just a handful in the entire country). I'd say it's a loud, but very small bunch of people.
On the counter-misinformation side, we have hundreds of doctors who volunteer for a public Facebook group where you can ask them anything covid related, including random stories you read on social media, and if it's misinformation they'll tell you where and how it goes wrong so you can (at least in theory) check it yourself.
But generally Danes trust our health authorities because they have earned that trust over many years.
Anytime the government does something by coercion we move closer to authoritarianism.
As a Latinamerican, I thank you for pointing it out 👍
If something is good and beneficial for the individual, why it must be mandatory used/applied by the State? 🤔
I heard there's evidence that more people would take that vaccine if it was voluntary. A lot of people are sketched out by it because of all the coercion and shame surrounding the vaccine.
There are people in both groups. Those who will take it because it's mandatory and those who won't take it because it's mandatory. The second group have been refusing to take it for the past 6 months *anyway* because they were afraid it would be mandatory one day, so it's not like they're suddenly changing their minds.
Yeah it's been obvious they were going to mandate it. And you're right there are other reasons to not want to take it.
It all boils down to one camp believes the 'authorities' have our best interest at heart and the other camp does not.
Pretty much yup. I'd probably get the thing but it's become a serious cult now, so it makes me wonder why they want me to have it so bad. Especially when I'm in a 99.9% survival category and we know you can still catch/spread covid after being vaccinated.
Of course it would. That's literally the only reason I haven't taken it yet. Were it presented as an option and presented well, it would be automatically coveted by so many people who currently refuse to take it. This is psychology 101, free will anyone? Makes you think more and more about the kind of morons are running the government.
I'm somewhat there, especially with vaccine passports. That's a big freaking NOPE for me.
Wait till blockchain technology and cryptocurrency gets woven into the mix... and rfid implants. They're evil and genius.
To be fair it's not about the individual. It's about the perceived effect it will have on others if this individual does not get a needle. JP is correct about one thing. This will only drive a legal wedge in an already wide gulf. However I really don't see a solution here.
If the people against vaccinations are wrong they are a literal walking plague and a threat to everyone they come in contact with. Protecting society by force is justified in this scenario.
If the forced vaccinators are wrong they are causing new variants to pop up due to a shoddy vaccine, are needlessly persecuting others, and are actively destroying our freedom as a nation.
This is truly an interesting time to be alive. No matter what we are fucked. In this age of polarization, spin, and deception where anyone can point to evidence to support their "hot takes" we will likely never know the truth about Covid.
Fwiw I got the vaccine for practical reasons (job), but dont trust it. I'm gonna just watch this unfold I guess and maybe buy a gun or two. Best of luck in the upcoming civil war.
>JP is correct about one thing. This will only drive a legal wedge in an already wide gulf. However I really don't see a solution here.
Excellent Post! I think reaching out to both sides will be necessairy, especially in Australia. There has been a steep cliff dividing the two camps. What id like the vaccinated camp to consider is that under the current legislation, fearing the unvaccinated on principle has become an illogical stance. In fact, the unvaccinated are the group to surround yourself with if you want to be stay safe from the virus. Let me explain:
First, some data expo. Vaccinated people are [just as likely to pass on the virus with the delta variant as unvaccinated people when infected](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/evidence-mounts-that-people-with-breakthrough-infections-can-spread-delta-easily) (they can get it about [40% less](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/health-ministry-says-covid-vaccine-is-only-40-effective-at-halting-transmission/) ), and the vaccine is prognosed to become [even less effective](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.454085v1.full.pdf) with the lambda coming around. Covid infection provides very good immunity, recent data showing even [better immunity than vaccination](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf) (13 times better protection), and most vaccinated countries are still struggling with the virus as much as [they did before the roll-out](https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&facet=none&hideControls=true&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=ISR~ISL~GBR).
The fears stated in this nature article have all come true [https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2) and herd immunity seems unreachable through vaccination alone.
A person without a vaccination certificate (that is recovered) could be safer to be around than the person with a vaccination certificate (that is not). The vaccination loses its effectiveness so quickly that Israel is considering issuing the green passport only for 6 months, cycling through booster shots as long as necessairy. This is all much less black and white than anybody would like.
Furthermore, even with the 40% improvement, I'd feel safest around the unvaccinated irrespective of their recovery status. Because:
1. Unlike the vaccinated, they have to test themselves constantly (in some countries almost daily), when they go out to work.
2. The unvaccinated have stronger symptoms.
An unvaccinated person is more likely to be "reported sick" when infected and is therefore out of circulation much quicker. Asymptomatic spreaders are now mainly found in the vaccinated camp.
Hence, it seems that right now, you are safest as a vaccinated person surrounded by unvaccinated people. I hope that this will quell some of the animosity of vaccinated on unvaccinated, which is the driver of this split.
The problem with your statement about unvaccinated is that it’s not a binary. If you don’t get vaccinated, you aren’t a literal walking plague. That’s not how it works, yet I see comment after comment saying you WILL get a disease if you’re not vaccinated against it.
I really enjoy your last two sentences. Hopefully (doubtful) we can come together and realize the civil war is between the haves and have nots, and not the vaxx vs unvaxx, black v white, red v blue etc.
I agree it's not binary. I was giving extreme fears as examples. Most people online view this issue in binary terms and that is the problem. The us vs them mentality that is commonplace online is toxic and leading us all down a dark path.
> If you don’t get vaccinated, you aren’t a literal walking plague.
My position is that if you're unvaccinated the science and stats all point to the fact you're much more likely to get sick and end up staying hope in bed. On the contrary the science (CDC) shows that the vaccinated, while having the same viral load, are significantly more likely to be asymptomatic.
Think about that for a second. The REAL situation is the vaccinated are a danger to the unvaccinated.
That's the key. The reality is that, assuming vaccines work, there's no need to force them on those who don't want them as they are of zero risk to the vaccinated. If they don't work then there's no logic to force them on those who don't want them either.
But the fact is the vaccine is "leaky" and what's going to happen is that the virus will just keep being spread around silently by the asymptomatic vaccinated population. Kind of like how HPV is rampant but because it generally doesn't do anything right away, no one really cares (it's when it gives you throat or cervical cancer later in life that it's a problem....HPV...not SARS2)
I agree with everything you’ve said but I don’t think it’s justified to mandate vaccines. Why are we pro-choice? Is it not the autonomy of our bodies? We can apply the logic of forcing people to do something for the “greater good” for practically anything. Nobody can explicitly tell you what mandates can imply especially when it comes to government overreach and pharma overreach. Big Pharma is incentivized to create boosters and to apply a strategy that juices money out.
Perhaps saying its justified is not the right word. If people are actively harming others then the law should protect them from others. It's not easy to establish who gave who Covid and who is responsible for the deaths. However, if the unvaxxed truly were killing others (hypothetically) then actions should be taken against them to neutralize the harm. Someone with HIV who knowingly infects others can be prosecuted. It's much harder to form a clear connection with Covid as even the vaxxed can spread it so I agree mandates aren't a great idea. I'd prefer some attempt at reconciliation or understanding. Those notions are somewhat out of fashion so I'll just quietly look at guns and wait.
"Interesting Times" indeed.
Yeah if they can rule out antibody dependent enhancement I’ll get the jab but they just haven’t. Even Pfizer, CDC, WHO, none of them have truly complete data and none of them are being honest about it. I’ve spent hours reading every perspective from both sides that I could get my hands on. And I still have questions.
It’s more plausible to me that the vaccine could have caused the delta variant since vaccinated people are still getting it and still dying from it. Just from an evolutionary POV. If the vax kills all but like 0.2%of the virus, that 0.2% is going to reproduce and pass on its genes - which are resistant to the antibodies the vax creates.
It seems more likely that a new variant would occur inside of vaccinated people since organisms evolve by adapting to their environments and the delta variant has now evolved to infect and kill vaccinated people.
Is that so crazy? Literally no one has addressed that concern. You can’t ask questions about it without being socially ostracized.
There are much lower chances that the virus would specifically mutate to be resistant to the vaccine’s effects solely inside of people who are unvaccinated. But that’s the narrative being sold.
It’s like, you set out 50 Petri dishes with bacteria on them in a room and apply intense heat to 25 of them. You come back a week later, and a heat resistant strain of bacteria has emerged. Where did it come from? Do you really expect me to believe that heat-resistant strain evolved inside the room temperature Petri dishes?
And hey maybe even if the vax did create delta it’s still safer to get the vax on an individual level. But who really knows anymore because they’re distorting the truth so much no one can tell up from down anymore.
Im not mandated to get the jab since I own my own business and have fewer than 100 employees. I just believe these mandates are entering dangerous territory. The government hasn’t forced businesses to discriminate like this since Jim Crow laws.
I’ve literally gotten every vaccination besides this one. I’ve had flu vaccines mumps rubella, all of them. I’m not anti-vax but I’m definitely anti-vax-mandate and anti-not-being-able-to-ask-fucking-questions.
Above all I simply want to wait for more data to emerge. I should have a right to do that. This shit is scary.
Pretty sure the delta variant was already kicking around before the vaccines were widespread.
It originated in India if I remember correctly.
i kinda want to cry readig your post. I never see anyone accurately say "if either side is wrong we are fucked." Its always one or the other. Thank you for acknowledging the new variant fear as much as the effect and fear of the public trying to follow rules given by gov.
Definitely buy a gun or two
Spoken like a true lobster
Don't mis-ideology me. It is very rude. I agree with some of what Peterson says (but not all). I wasnt inspired to change my life because of him (maybe a habit or two but it's a WIP due to me being a fat undisciplined slob). I am generally open to new ideas (unless those ideas are being said to me by someone I deem an asshole).
I am taking a centrist position and speaking in hypothetical terms. I take no stance beyond "Hey perhaps try and understand the other side before you stab someone you assume is a representative of ideas you hate in a dark alley because of their outward appearance (i.e they are wearing a Maga hat or blue hair).
Look at truancy - hard to find many people who argue its good for kids to not go to school, but it still has to be enforced for a number of parents.
Here's a reality on truancy laws you don't often hear about. My son was getting bullied severely at school. I had countless meetings with teachers, principals, and enlisted the help of advocacy groups. Nothing was done to stop the bullying. I asked for what's call home-hospital placement and provided notes from doctors requesting the same, who were treating him for trauma due to bullying. I was denied. I ended up keeping him home illegally. They took me to court and ask for him to be removed from my custody due to truancy. I came with all my emails, which was a stack inches thick, of my trying to get resolve. I retained custody. The fact of the matter tho, is truancy laws exist not for the child, but for the protection of the funds the child's butt in the seat brings to the district. Don't be fooled. It's always about money.
Well, my first thought was “The vaccine isn’t even remotely as definitely-good as school is.”, but that depends on the school. Dr. Peterson, especially in the wake of Bill C-16 and the Lindsay Ellis controversy, definitely recommends avoiding schools/colleges if they appear to be indoctrinating more than educating. And an indoctrination is definitely *not* a good education.
In that sense, if school is just to indoctrinate your kids, then truancy, like refusing this vaccine, becomes a point of virtue.
Truancy law is for grade school.
Big IF to say "If k-12 is more damaging to kids than beneficial"
But yeah, everyone is for "good for kids" and against "bad for kids" boiler plates.
But I doubt you would really argue "we should let parents keep kids out of schooling. Period."
Truancy is a virtue? What in the fuck?
Because individuals will often act in a way that cause harm to society.
Taxes, food quality/safety regulations, transportation safety requirements,...
There's an argument to be made on a case by case basis, but the idea that if the state has to mandate something then it's inherently non-beneficial for the individual is silly.
You can have any kind of "regulation" (such as certificates, for example) without the necessity of the State.
I.e.: you have 2 electrical transformers. One is homemade. Another, has various certificates of insurances and companies that assure you the quality of the product. It's your choice wether to use one and not another. People MUST have responsibility when they buy/use something. You can't handle that to the State, simply because the State is not an insurance.
I'm saying this not because I'm a libertarian. I'm argentinian, and every service the State gives to the society tends to be REALLY bad (for example, the monopoly of the electricity)
Ordinary people aren’t electricians, just like ordinary people aren’t virologists. We let OSHA dictate which products are safe for consumption, and we let the FDA and doctors dictate what drugs are safe consumption
But you have 2 problems:
1) There's no competition and, thus, no choice (you let the monopoly of the "quality" delegated to a single entity).
2) You have a problem of incentives: what incentives have multiple private companies/insurances, and what incentives have the State? What incentive have the State to do "the right thing" or doing whatever the State wants?
By the way: a private company is easier to "destroy" by taking away their private financing than the State; and if it still works, despite the fact nobody is financing it, that's because the State is paying them.
There is competition, there were over 20 companies racing to deliver the highest quality vaccine. The incentive is money, obviously. Better product = FDA approved = profit
You’re trying to sound smart but you’re not thinking about what you’re saying ffs
It's not AND IT NEVER WAS about "sounding smart"... You can read about Alberto Benegas Lynch (son), for example, to learn about this and the logical result of this analysis about incentives, you troll...
C'mon...why do we have seatbelt laws? Why do we have 200 other laws you could think of that, agree or disagree, are for the benefit of the individual.
New England has the most lax seatbelt laws and the fewest fatalities.
Because liberals are fascists ofc
That’s why it makes no sense to mandate seatbelts. Or bike/motorcycle helmets! If it’s good or beneficial for the individual then there’s no point it must be mandatory, right? ….Right?
Edit: didn’t think I needed the /s but there ya go
Excuse me, will you ever buy a car with no seatbelt? Or NOT buying a helmet after you bought your motorcycle? Of course you can buy a car without seatbelts or not buying a helmet, but it's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY by doing that (also, you're increasing your own chances to have an accident).
And, if your life makes no sense and you want to kill yourself, unfortunately, you live in a society, and people that wants to preserve THEIR lives, each and every person MUST HAVE the responsibility to point this out... Not the State. If the State wants, it can prohibit the bike, the motorcycle or a car "to save people's lives"
Where can I buy this seatbeltless car?
Come to Argentina, to La Matanza, Buenos Aires. Even you can buy the modern Flintstone's car 😉
How’s that working out for you?
I guess I really needed the /s in there for you to understand that it was sarcasm. Poor guy
Neither is mandatory federally. Plus you can take off a seat belt or helmet. Or choose not to partake in either activity.
Free market takes care of this, car companies are incentivized to build in safety features since people usually like to avoid dying.
Umm many people do things against their own interests nearly all the time
And that’s fine, except when it can affect the health and safety of someone else
Based as always.
Its Bill C-16 all over again
I sure am glad someone made a subreddit for all the people arrested for violating that law!
"BuT ThAt'S JuSt RiGhT WiNg MiSiNfOrMaTiOn!!1! We NeEd MoRe CeNsOrShIp BeCaUsE LiVeS!!1!!1"
And this is exactly what they are going to say Mark my words.
Personally, I have no problem trusting the same ppl who invented OxyContin to end a pandemic by pushing drugs. Idk what’s wrong with all these anti-science jerks.
Don't forget, the same government just murdered several people in Afghanistan with a drone strike so they could pretend they had killed the ISIS member who organized the Kabul airport bombing.
Right? The same ones claiming follow the science who ignore natural immunity post infection. Or claim gender is a social construct yet a person who claims they were born in the wrong gender should be believed?
Follow the science except of course when it goes against my policies, than of course attack the scientist and publications that shared their “science” until they retract and support my “science”.
The thing that boggles me the most is that, the so called "vxne" dose doesn't in itself qualify as such.
Vaccine should prevent you in getting the "flu that shouldn't be named".
That's what the argument was initially. Now it's turned to making sure you don't die of pneumonia? There are ayurvedic remedies for lung care and yoga is proven to make you live healthier. Does that mean Ayurveda and yoga are now vxnes?
Jordan’s correct in that assessment. Mandating vaccines and vaccine passports will not get folks who distrust the vaccines to get it, however it will get the people on the fence and those dragging their feet to book an appointment to get it. I only foresee a marginal increase in vaccine rates when mandated- I guess time will tell.
Nope. It won't. Anyone who wanted (and could) get the vaccine has had their chance here in Canada. The 20% who remain simply refuse and no amount of BULLYING will change that number significantly.
I think you are right. I was listening to one of these rallies and they seem quite prepared to die for their principles.
How I read this:
“Mandating vaccines is NOT going to increase trust. Quite the contrary.”
Forcing your will on people has the opposite of the intended effect, but this really doesn’t matter…
“It is instead an admission that trust has already been violated…”
It doesn’t matter because the damage had already been done.
“…and an attempt to redress that by force.”
Now we use force to fix the problem we caused.
Question this raises for me:
Who are the actors described here?
Trust in what is violated?
WHY was trust violated?
Can we do better?
Should we be setting the example? For whom?
Why do some want to comply while others don’t?
A pretty well-sourced article by an actual doctor who recommends the vaccine and points out that the government's messaging has been terrible, which is kind of the point of the JP tweet in the OP.
And by “government messaging has been terrible” is an interesting way to say “lying”.
Great article, by what seems like a very sensible doctor.
Thanks for sharing this. It seems a fair read of the current state of things
The logic is robust. But I think it needs at least one more step: The premise.
Trust was breached first with violence. Thus, violence cannot then repair this breach, it can only widen it.
Who are the actors? Jordan would say "we are the actors". I concur. We are using the violence to breach the trust, we are using the violence to (irrationally) try to repair the breach. We are the actors. Of course, some of us do a particular thing, others do a different particular thing. But all of us, you and I, we are the actors.
I wrote about a particular problem a leader faces when doom is on the horizon: [https://wannagitmyball.wordpress.com/2020/07/18/the-public-health-act-repeal-common-denominator/](https://wannagitmyball.wordpress.com/2020/07/18/the-public-health-act-repeal-common-denominator/)
This relates to our purpose here because a leader would desire to retain his authority for the purpose of repairing trust. Well, that's a true conundrum. How does a leader repair trust which he has breached from his authority, if not from his authority again? The alternative is that this leader steps down and relinquishes this authority, thus abandoning the right to claim credit, and be remembered always as "the guy who broke things".
The same people pushing for mandates are the ones saying the World would be a better place if Trumpers didn’t exist. This whole thing is about compliance disguised as compassion.
Israel is the gold standard in vaccinations.
So why did they have the highest spike in Covid cases recently?
The Vaxxed ppl are the super spreaders. Unvaxxed ppl are bedridden from Covid symptoms and not out and about. Meanwhile the Vaxxed have no symptoms and aren’t aware whether they’re spreading or not.
Now that there’s only ~80mil unvaxxed, it’s not politically dangerous to piss them off. They’re political minorities.
Oh, and don’t forget, Pfizer, J&J, Moderna, they get $$$ kickbacks for distributing vaccines. The push isn’t for health/safety, it’s to line the medical elites pockets.
This has been the greatest transfer of wealth in history. The FAANG tech companies, Walmart, etc, they’ve made a killing while Mom&Pop local businesses have either closed or are on life support.
They’re gonna *BUILD BACK BETTER* a society where A bloated Federal government bypasses individual liberties by utilizing Big Businesses as proxy enforcers.
Damn, I enjoyed reading that. Well done.
>Israel is the gold standard in vaccinations.
No they're not, they're middle of the pack. Half a year ago they were ahead of everyone else but by now half of Europe is ahead of them. Source: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
>The Vaxxed ppl are the super spreaders. Unvaxxed ppl are bedridden from Covid symptoms and not out and about. Meanwhile the Vaxxed have no symptoms and aren’t aware whether they’re spreading or not.
Nice theory but it's not that simple and in practice vaccination cuts transmission by a lot. See here:
>secondary attack rates dropping from 31% to 11% if the index patient was fully vaccinated
So, if someone in a household was unvaccinated 31% of the other members of the household got it, it that person was vaccinated, 11%.
Thank you, it’s tiring to argue with people who just write nonsense on the internet and it takes so much time from smarter people to correct them spewing crap.
\> Thank you for saying words that comfort my worldview. It's so hard dealing with facts that I wasn't taught how to debunk yet!
It’s not facts when it’s just lies.
Why is no other country experiencing this so-called Israel spike?
Adding context to claims about Israel's vax rollout
I’ve finally been fact-checked on Reddit!
As per your article, I’ve never claimed the vaccines are a failure (although now that you mentioned it, what do you call a vaccine that doesn’t stop the virus it was designed for?), I said Israel still has a high case count despite a successful vaccine rollout (because as we know, you can still catch Covid while vaxxed).
> (although now that you mentioned it, what do you call a vaccine that doesn’t stop the virus it was designed for?),
No vaccine stops _100%_ of the virus they were designed for.
Most of the common vaccines are above 90% and achieve herd immunity, but some vaccines are only about 50%.
At the end of the day, this is what matters, the application (or threat) of force.
Of course it isn't people have already had it with this nonsense.
Pro vaccine, Anti mandate. The state should increased education and awareness around the subject instead of using force.
I guess in an ideal world more people would voluntarily get vaccinated. In my country 92% of eligible people had at least one dose of a vaccine. Why is this issue so politicised in the US? How many people are choosing not to get vaccinated against covid or are hesitant and what are their reasons. Lack of trust of the media? Of pharma? Or of the government?
85% of C19 deaths are in people over 65.
Less than 3% of C19 cases require hospitalization
The vaccine has been around for one year, and we don't know how many doses is required.
My question is, why would you take it if you are not in a high risk category? Why would you voluntarily take that risk? We know less about the long term effects of the vaccine than we know about the long term effects of C19.
All three at once is quite a large net unfortunately.
It is so politicized in the US in part because it happened to occur during an election year.
So it became a political issue, with sides being taken, and a political issue it remains.
All of the above. And a good chunk of the populace, from what I've seen.
Probably also a cultural issue. American topics like guns, sugar, health care, prison system, capital punishment are good examples for this strange dissonance.
It's more than cultural. 40% of St. Louis City is vaccinated. That's comparable to rural counties in the state. Or if it is cultural it's a wide variety of cultures that agree on this at similar rates.
I'm absolutely appalled. How is it that fans of Peterson cannot see what is happening? This Covid farce was concocted and now exists for the express purpose of hijacking the world and thrusting us all into a global totalitarian regime.
Peterson repeatedly warns from history that most normal people would go along with the evils of such a system, and his followers are apparently no exception.
It's a dark day when even those who possess the truth can do little but hold that truth in unrighteousness.
"A preprint study published by researchers from Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh surveyed 5,121,436 US adults and found that while vaccine hesitancy decreased overall by one-third between January and May 2021, there was no decrease in hesitancy among those with a professional degree and PhDs had the highest vaccine hesitancy.
'Those with professional degrees (e.g., JD, MBA) and PhDs were the only education groups without a decrease in hesitancy, and by May, those with PhDs had the highest hesitancy.'
To our knowledge, no other study has evaluated education with this level of granularity, which was possible due to our unusually large sample size (>10,000 participants with PhDs)."
some of us see it.
Peterson doesn't see what you are seeing either.
Peterson's never been wise to the deep state. At one point in one of my favorite interviews, he encourages listeners to aspire to be like Bill Gates.
> It’s a dark day when even those who possess the truth can do little but hold that truth in unrighteousness.
So what’s the truth? Covid is a hoax or the vaccine doesn’t do anything to stop it? The govt. created covid, because they want to kill who exactly? The college educate people who line up for the vaccine or the anti-vax numbnuts?
Please enlighten me oh benevolent follower of Peterson!
covid isn't a hoax, but it's far less of a concern than it has been played up as the whole time.
Situational design, doesn't really matter how dangerous whatever "concern" is, it matters how much control you can extort out of it by convincing large parts of the population how scary and dangerous it is.
>The college educate people who line up for the vaccine or the anti-vax numbnuts?
were you really unaware that the vaccine acceptance is a bell curve with only the moderately intelligent having the highest chance of taking and PHD's and up having the highest rates of hesitancy?
> were you really unaware that the vaccine acceptance is a bell curve with only the moderately intelligent having the highest chance of taking and PHD’s and up having the highest rates of hesitancy?
Nothing wrong with being hesitant. So you believe the smartest people in the world are still unvaxxed?
plenty of the smartest people in the world are unvaxxed, yes
probably because they are smart enough to realize that to call it a "vaccine" in the first place is incredibly disingenuous. Enough so that they had to recently change the definition of inoculation so that the current jabs still qualify
Plenty of the smartest people in the world are vaxxed, too.
I believe Covid is real. I've been diagnosed with it a couple of times, don't know if the diagnosis was correct or made up, but I trust/believe the medical procedure and medical staff behind the diagnosis, hence why I say "believe".
The only way for me to be sure Covid exists is to directly see anecdotal evidence of its existence under the microscope AFTER having understood basic virology first in order to comprehend what is it that I am looking at, as of right now, I can't be sure Covid or any other virus or bacteria for that matter, exists.
The vaccine apparently doesn't do shit to stop Covid infection on most people, my mother and a couple of other vaccinated medical professionals got Covid not too long after being vaccinated with different brands of Covid vaccines.
The "government" (lmao, which gov are you talking about? I'm going to assume the Chinese gov) helped to create Covid very likely to study dangerous viruses and understand gain of function better. Lex Friedman has tons of good podcasts with knowledgeable guests explaining this subject. I really doubt that the people who created Covid did it with bad intentions. That's conspiracy territory and we can only assume/guess their intentions, so I'll leave that aside.
As the last point, being college-educated doesn't mean jack shit, I'm college-educated and I'm dumb asf.
This is a huge part of the problem. We take so much for granted until we start to think about it. It's all just stories that we slap on the real life movie taking place before our eyes. If we get down to it though I think we trust modern scientific explanations more than ancient folk wisdom for a reason. Unless there is something much more strange and deeper going on.
You are responding to my reply on this comment/
>I'm absolutely appalled. How is it that fans of Peterson cannot see what is happening? This Covid farce was concocted and now exists for the express purpose of hijacking the world and thrusting us all into a global totalitarian regime.
Peterson repeatedly warns from history that most normal people would go along with the evils of such a system, and his followers are apparently no exception.
It's a dark day when even those who possess the truth can do little but hold that truth in unrighteousness.
You agree with all this then?
They are using our fear of disease, something inherent to existence, to seize and consolidate power. CoVid does exist, but the data shows that it’s not deadly enough for most people to warrant the response we are currently seeing. I’m just gonna summarize cuz I could write forever: CoVid exists but governments are using misinformation or malinformation to further consolidate their authoritarian power.
I want to second this. What exactly is the conspiracy?
The conspiracy is that covid-19 alone does not pose a societal danger to the point that it justifies the past 18 months of hysteria and the ensuing years of societal restructuring.
Richard Schabas, former Chief Medical Officer of Ontario said it something like this; We face a tragedy and a crisis. The tragedy is that the virus has the potential to cause harm to the elderly and infirm. The crisis is man-made, in our efforts to control the virus we’ve completely lost all perspective on what really matters.
By what metrics would you say it’s gotten more deadly?
That's not a "concocted farce", but rather a difference in value hierarchy.
It could be a concocted farce insofar as the voices driving it are world governments and large corporate media conglomerates, all of whom profit greatly off of fear and destabilization.
Or yes it could simply be that people value different things. I think it’s a likely mix of both, but it’s undeniable that the government and media tends to take advantage of the masses any chance they get.
The conspiracy is climate lockdowns, covid will eventually be morphed into the climate change narrative and an excuse to lower humanity's carbon footprint. Lockdowns are the new normal
This is fanciful conjecture IMO.
I know there are people here who see it, they just seem to be a minority. But that shouldn't surprise me, this is reddit after all.
The most brilliant and powerful minds of modern society standing at the forefront of medical science and the governments WE PAY FOR have handed us a miracle vaccine in record time and half the population doesn't give a damn and thinks they're either trying to enslave or kill them while the rest of the world is begging for help. The virus is worldwide after all!
What of the marvels of western society Peterson is always preaching about?
Congratulations, you're the model citizen for the new world order. Enjoy that high social credit score.
Why should I trust the conspiratorial fear mongering over the science that has given me modern life and health?
Plenty of doctors, nurses, scientists, lawyers, politicians, and educated people have been calling BS the whole time. There is no consensus amongst doctors or scientists, and to pretend that there is, or that the "science is settled" proves that you are either ignorant or lying about the current situation.
That junk might fly when you're talking to people who can only parrot mantras from mainstream media sources, but you give yourself away to anyone who's actually investigating the issue.
Show me a consortium of doctors that sit on hospital boards that recommend no vaccine or mask. I’ll wait
I have spent years criticizing everything that can be described as being a "nanny state" and fancied myself somewhat of a libertarian, but the pandemic has convinced me that some people are literally too dumb to survive without a nanny (as also evidenced in this very thread). So if you need a nanny, you should get one.
Curious, which people are too dumb? Those that have already had Covid-19 and have natural immunity? But now risk being fired for not getting a vaccine which would give them the immunity they already have? Or the parents with teen boys who are more at risk of vaccine side effects than of the actual disease? Then maybe miraculously we can get the USA 100% vaccinated… then other countries… which have zero vaccine infrastructure… create variants like Delta (India) and Mu (Columbia). Now every person needs a booster because the goalposts have been moved to include the whole world.
A serious _yes_ to all of your cynical questions.
Right now, more important than trusting the government, which will take decades to build, if it ever does, we need people to get vaccinated.
Thank you JBP! They are losing trust with each mandate, force is never the answer
Exactly, by being selfish and not getting the vaccine like a responsible adult, you broke the trust of your community, and they had to take steps to protect themselves from your ignorance.
So glad polio was eradicated before the internet.
They don't want trist, they want compliance.
I'm not arguing for an elimination strategy.
We have to decrease the covid hospitalizations so that proper health service is available for everybody who needs it. In the US there are currently 96870 people hospitalized because of covid and more than 90% of them are unvaccinated. So if we could get more people vaccinated there would be less covid hospitalizations and we could go back to normal. But as long as treatments have to be rescheduled because a lack of free beds the covid restrictions won't end.
But what does a state do when hóstile forign states and the far right are encouraging people to sabotage every virus suppression tactic by undermining trust and spreading conspiracy theories?
This post should have more upvotes than it does simply because it's so relevant and is a statement from the man the sub is supposedly about.
Goes to show you, the hivemind only cries "peTeRsOn woULdnT aGrEe wiTh yOu!" when you're talking about banning communism or something like that.
Reminds me of that meme, "yeah I have nothing but contempt for your bullshit religion but that won't stop me from citing 'wwjd' when it's convenient for me".
JP seems off on this one. Of course the US is divided, and of course roughly half the population didn't trust the Trump administration, and around half don't trust Biden's. It's silly to think that the US might suddenly becoming an open, reasonable place where information is shared freely and interpreted objectively, and almost everyone makes good judgments based on their own best interests, along with factoring in the common good.
Why would anyone assume that mandating vaccination to anti-vaxers is going to increase their trust anyway? What kind of starting point is that?
Imagine if they said the truth out loud:
Dear unvaccinated people. The vaccine does a great job of protecting the person using it but they can still catch and spread the disease. We are going to implement vaccine passports to protect you, the UNvaccinated people from those who, while protected themselves, are much more likely to be asymptomatic super spreaders.
You have a choice... you can remain unvaccinated and hope a vaccinated person doesn't unwittingly infect you or you can get the shot and protect yourself. It's really up to you.
Do people not realize that it is government that created the problem and now is imposing itself as the solution? Do people not understand how dangerous that is?
Government isn’t the solution. They are the problem. You are the solution.
We don’t need them and they don’t represent you.
Defund and abolish government.
Hi there. I think JBP would disagree with you in principle.
* You always have to have Order: a state of how individuals organize. You cannot have solely Chaos and still have a functioning society. Nature takes over and it's survival of the fittest which gives power to individuals in different, ugly ways than governments usually do.
* Any power over others can corrupt. Even if you have a perfect philosopher king who never abuses their power in a small-knit society, that leader will pass on to someone less perfect. Society always runs the risk of having bad leaders which fosters even worse corruption. You're going to have a government after revolution no matter what.
* Hence, the goal of all of us is not to cast aside a government. If it's still possible to redeem, its the responsibility of all of us to try. If it's impossible to redeem, like you imply, that we all insist that we have a new government in place that hedges against corruption or we all fall into Chaos and it will be too late to decide what rules we play by.
His reference in this tweet is specifically not that the vaccine is bad for you, but that the government has already lost the people's trust so things like mandates are doing harm in fostering trust that the government is looking out for you.
How could such an abnoxious comment get any likes in this sub, what is going on here
“Some police are corrupt, therefore we should abolish all police”
“Look how far the termites have spread and how long and we’ll they have dined”
The word is spelled obnoxious, and what’s wrong with my comment?
Another question. Do you feel your government adequately represents you?
>Another question. Do you feel your government adequately represents you?
Not totally, for me.
>Defund and abolish government.
This is absolutely not the answer.
Government doesn’t represent you and they can’t. They can only represent the wealthy elite. That’s all. They are a big military and police backed gang that steals money from you and spends it poorly and inefficiently on things you don’t want. In the case of the US they’ll use the money they stole from you to basically install the Taliban in the government of the Afghanistan.
They’ll also use your money to fund gain of function research on viruses in wuhan, and then after the covid they helped create leaks, they’ll demand you shut down your business and go hungry or they’ll jail you. It’s pure tyranny.
You have no rights. As long as there is government people only have temporary privileges bestowed upon them by government and taken away at government’s whim.
Government is a misplacement of personal responsibility. It is placing your responsibility in the hands of people that will abuse the power and not take any responsibility.
The rejection of government with the appropriate acceptance of personal responsibility is the only way to avoid the next long bloody conflict that will only result in the next stage in the cycle. We are all one mental step away from the revolution that can’t be televised because it will be a revolution of the mind.
>The rejection of government with the appropriate acceptance of personal responsibility is the only way to avoid the next long bloody conflict that will only result in the next stage in the cycle.
The idea that violence would go down in a society without organized government is questionable at best. If you want to argue that government should be downsized, that's a very common view. But abolish altogether? Yeah, nah.
>We are all one mental step away from the revolution that can’t be televised because it will be a revolution of the mind.
I disagree. I hope one day you’ll join this revolution that can’t be televised.
If it is true that you suggest anarchy, then your comment is terribly out of line with Petersons philosophy. Defunding the government is a drastic measure on too high a resolution level. Getting rid of it would only make centuries of progress undone.
Let me ask you something: how clean is your room?
I’m not one with Jordan Peterson. We’re both individuals. My solution is in line with his philosophy of personal responsibility though. If everyone took responsibility for themselves and the world around them, government would no longer be necessary.
We all collectively need to let go of trying to scheme to control one another through government and laws. We all think we can live and let live and make the mistake that we think most other people aren’t able to do that. Most of us are. Enough of us are.
We’re ready for the realizations that we don’t need another bloody conflict or revolution. We can have the revolution that can’t be televised. It’s a revolution of the mind. A way to think about history and understand the present in a way that’s mindful of the future.
I suggest freedom. I suggest voluntarism. I suggest no utopia but the idea that what we’re experiencing now is clearly dystopian.
And my room is clean.
Most people are retarded though….
JPB: "Mandating vaccines erodes public trust"
JPB redditors: "COVID IS A HOAX MEANT TO ENSLAVE US"
wHy Is THiS eVEN On ThIS SUb??
We are still in a pandemic due to ignorance surrounding vaccines. There was a Supreme Court case *Jacobson v Massaschusetts* that legitimizes vaccine mandates. 3 quarters of Canada’s population is at least partially vaccinated. No more debate…it’s done. Get your fucking vaccine now, or prepared to be locked out of public spaces.
If I lose my job again due to political fringe bullshit I swear to fucking god.
The most vaccinated countries are having Covid spikes right now.
This is the conversation I've been trying to have with people who have been super pushy regarding the vaccine. We need to stop and ask why this is the case-- people view this vaccine as a silver bullet when it's more like one layer of protection.
I made this case a while back that many people getting the vaccine think they are super safe, thus go about day-to-day life as they would normally. This ignores the existence of variants and mutations. It will not be the unvaccinated minority that is responsible for spreading mutations, but those who *are* vaccinated and have been given a false sense of security because they will be walking around without masks and not be taking the same precautions as they would be during any flu season.
This mandate does nothing except erode individual freedom. I've not gotten the vaccine. I do not think this thing is a conspiracy, covid is no joke and I would not like to get it, nor would I like to get its variants. What I can do is take personal responsibility, mask up when it is reasonable to do so, and avoid going to huge gatherings. It's been over 2 years and I've not gotten sick with even a common cold due to precautionary action.
Meanwhile, my vaccinated brother and sister-in-law both came down with horrible cases of COVID twice since then. They socialize like its nobodies business and attend large-crowd gatherings. Shocker. Given that the variants *exist*, these mandates for this *one* vaccine mean nothing except erosion of our freedoms. No thank you, I will fight this one.
And I just want to clarify I *will* be getting a vaccine. I am waiting. I didn't buy the first iPhone, but waited for the 4th generation :-)
I will not get the vax and if that means no public spaces, I'm with it.
The irony here is your ignorance.
the supreme court case referenced STATE mandates to begin with
and Israel has much, much higher rate of vaccination than Canada, as does Iceland. Those countries are nowhere near being "done" with the pandemic.
The pandemic is not going to be put down by the populace just doing what they are told. It's only going to end when everyone STOPS listening to the fear mongering and just gets back to living.