By - Kaos2018
#[Best of r/Holup 2021 Awards – Nomination and Voting Thread!](https://www.reddit.com/r/HolUp/comments/royfze/best_of_rholup_2021_awards_nomination_and_voting/)
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What’s the cutoff % for when a markup will get you arrested? So 700% is bad, but is 350% ok? 200%? 100%? Like at what point are we saying, “This is price gouging”?
Person selling equipment to hospitals at 700% markup... bad!
Hospitals selling services to people at 2,000% markup... good!
Is this some sort of American joke that I'm too Australian to understand?
Fortunately for you, yea.
Healthcare is free in my country and I get it nevertheless. Selling necessity goods through the legal market at a very high price could apply to many industries, manufacturers, businesses. And the moral entitlement is the same : it's fine when we're doing it, but if others do the same through the black market, the only market they have access to, they're dangerous criminals.
It’s not really free. You pay taxes and that money gets used for that. Can we please, get away from using the word free when we talk about the government? Nothing they provide is free. It comes from your tax dollars.
We say it's free, because when you go into hospital/GP/get treatment, you have no out of pocket expenses. We never see the money taken out for medical tax so to us it feels like it's free .
A lady at my work just had hernia surgery, she had to wait 3 months but there was no out of pocket expenses.
True. Honestly free healthcare sounds cool and all until you realize that everyone gets the same care, which also seems fine, but that would mean a LOT more medical positions would need to be filled.
is it still a joke if its true?
But is it still a joke if it makes me unbearably depressed because the crushing reality of it is so absurd and tragic?
Asking as an American with a diabetic brother and a fiancee with a complex medical history.
Sadly it still is, unfortunately you are part of the set up for the joke.
Dark humour exists soo.. yes.
Oof I am diabetic too but luckily not american, sad dor you man.
Sad for millions of us. I just wish that all my brother's hard work came back to him instead of getting dumped into the medical industrial complex :(
Prayin for you guys🙏
Hope he will get that sorted out
There's nothing for him to sort, he's type 1. Government needs to sort it and cap the fucking price or quit with this free market fever dream.
I feel incredibly lucky to be living in the UK. I developed late onset type 1 diabetes last year... I can’t imagine how much that would cost for the rest of my life in the USA.
It would cost your life. 😬 Or an arm and a leg
Well, comedies and tragedies have strong parallels..
Comedy = tragedy + time....
Let's kill the rich and steal there money for the poor
Let’s stop the rich from stealing the poor’s money.
Flair checks out.
A sad joke, but a joke nonetheless!
Jokes are like fat chicks... Not everyone likes them!
Can confirm, am a proud chubby chaser... It's pretty easy because they don't run too fast. /s
or if they do it's on a treadmill
We laugh lest we cry
Yeah it is cause here in the states we still laugh at those jokes even though we’re crying at the same time
It's a joke when the American healthcare system is a joke
(Yes and no)
Yes because it's ridiculous and no because it's real.
I'm a South African who moved to Canada at the age of 12 in 2008 with my family and it would've been Australia if it wasn't for your strict 6 month pet quarantine. Free to give birth up here but an ~average of $30 000 USD down there?!
They had some federal bill on the table in the states a few months ago to restrict the cost of lifesaving insulin for diabetics who need it to survive at $35/mo and not a single Republican voted for it. *Not. One.*
But the conservative billionaires behind the Sinclair media machine or the Koch family need to be heard too so I'd hate to *discriminate* against these monsters like Martin Shkreli.
So, just imagine if you bought a slab, and then smuggled it into the footy at the MCG, because it's a market where people are desperate for the product and may be vulnerable to seeking it from an unofficial and less than reputable source.
Then you sold a few cans to the players and coaching staff of your favourite team at half time, for double the price that you paid. Then everyone gets really angry at you.
But at the bars at the footy, they are selling plastic cups of midstrenght horse piss to the public for $9.80, and that's all cool.
They were $11 on boxing day
Nah mate, just imagine the healthcare system here as the prices for regular ass cars-JDM cars in Australia, and realize that everyone smoked crack before demanding those prices 😂
Yes and appreciate you don't get it!
Oh I do, I love paying reasonable prices for life saving medication!
If you're in a hospital in America withuout healthcare system for an operation, you can ask if they can take your kidney for reselling so you can pay that stupidly large bills they give you.
Yeah but... On the third time they freak out, asking all these questions like where did you even get that then proceed to call police!
Dunno. But as an Aussie I was thinking 5000 x 40 x 7 is a lot of money if he pulled it off.
*too rest of the world
We would have had better health care if we lost the Revolutionary War.
you're an australian whose avatar is wearing a koala costume and who has bear in their user.. does it get anymore stereotypical than that?
It's only a "joke" in the sense that it's literally true and we choose to laugh instead of cry.
they sell 2000% markups to insurance
There are concrete definitions depending on the state. It’s usually a specific percent increase between x months before an emergency is declared and after.
I believe when trump passed the state of emergency PPE anti-gouging executive order, there was a concrete percentage.
Guy hoarding: oh no I've always sold these at 700% markup
Last time this was posted i did the math and if he bought them from alibaba (5000 os the minimum items ordered there) then 700% markup would result in a similar price to amazons.
He's guilty for not being rich and owning all of the n95s
Depends. What is your company's net worth and do any congressmen have a stake in it?
I'm pretty sure the pharmabros did an 800% mark up to try and cash out on it.
its about how much you bribe officials. Charge whatever you want, just make sure the enforcers get a trip to cancun or a new porsch.
It’s bad if it’s and individual, if it’s a business, that’s just the “art of the deal”!
Sorry, you have to be a multi million dollar company to do this
You aren't one? Damn sucks for you.
Damn it! Those multi-millionaire who are hoarding this masks.
Yea obviously they don't. Cause it isn't worth the money to them.
But if they wanted to, they could. Casually. And would get away with it.
On Amazon a 50 pack of those masks cost $8 a few weeks ago, went to buy them again and it’s now $80. Have pics as proof, it’s insane.
Was going to say. Isn’t that just the free market?
Because.... thi... this is a free market & people. n... n..... n... We are a free market economy that should be able to participate in that.
\- Nancy Pelosi.
She's rumored to retire if that bill passes, you know.
It is. Politicians and law enforcers are available for purchase and doing so is part of the cost of doing business in the U$A.
If you wanted to know, no. It's illegal to price gouge necessary supplies during time of emergency/crisis. Made doubly so during pandemic.
This was very early on when doctors couldn't even get their own PPE they were buying it themselves.
He easily could've got away with it, if he wasn't telling /showcasing a doctor I believe it was buying it that he had thousands in stock. Who then obviously reported him.
He was supposed to fill out the correct form before price gouging pharmaceuticals. You can't just go out and do it, you gotta go through the correct channels.
Wasn’t this the reason it was illegal. Not because of the markup but because he wasn’t a certified medical supplier
This made me say “Man, seriously”… without remembering who is stockpiling it.
Who is stock piling it?
Take a guess bud
When this screen shit was taken? Literally every person who wasn’t leaving them for medical professionals. Have we already forgotten the mask rush of 2020?
Tweets gotta be sometime in March/April 2020.
Screenshots could’ve been taken anytime between then and now.
It's their marketing strategy to hoard n95 masks and sell it in higher price, now you can help humanity on that?? Who will buy your n95 masks if all people are infected with the virus, what's the use of your money? makes sense!
Interesting how the FBI focuses their attention on the little people and not all the corrupt politicians and companies.... What a backward ass country.
The little people don't decide how much money they get!
Long live capitalism… i mean oligarchy! Amen
Its only illegal when done by the lower classes.
Only illegal if you dont give govt its cut
Ain’t no fun if Uncle Sam can’t have none
Seriously tho, are you sure it's manufacturer issue? In Sweden, Lithuania and England where I lived insulin is super affordable or free.
Yeah it's around 400 hundred dollars or more
Since you mentioned dollars I assume you're from USA. The challange with making insulin affordable in USA is a verry long story from what I understand, but that's quite uniquely USA problem.
Everything medical in the us is extremely marked up in price. Iv bags or some other medical bags are under a dollar to make and are sold for like 100 dollars or something.
I just read an article to double check, but yeah everything diabetis related is much cheaper in Europe and then that cheaper price is fully or mostly compensated by Healthcare.
I really don't understand the problem too well, so take it with a pinch of salt, but from I understand is that US is famous for low taxes and high salaries with no universal Healthcare. It's sort of assumed in US you have to create your own safety nets from private companies or your work provides... Which creates the obvious problem for poor or unemployed and is basicly the pinicle of capitalism
On other end you have countries like Sweden where takes are ultra high and if you earn above 4000 dollars a month all that extra cash is 50 percent tax. As a result all education is free, Healthcare is free and a lot of other benefits.
>US is famous for low taxes and high salaries with no universal Healthcare.
That is half right. We also have high taxes, it just goes to the military and corporate bailouts.
“Hmmm… do we take care of our people or blow up the Middle East and bail out the big banks? It’s such a hard choice!”
We pay the most and get the least from it.
You’re right about the military. That’s the reason why I thought, why don’t I join so I can reap the benefits. Ended up not enlisting because my fucking family and friends thought I was too smart to enlist after high school. I feel like most kids should work in the military or just any job in general for 1-2 years before going to college. I think 4 years in the military would’ve helped me grow up. Took me 6 years to graduate college just cuz I didn’t know what I wanted to do and changed my major 4 times causing me to graduate late.
College graduate here w 3+ years of experience. I make ~$52,000/year and my after tax take home is about $2800/month or 33,600/year. That’s ~65% take home or ~35% taxes.
That $2800 is also before I contribute to retirement and pay for healthcare. If I add those things in, my take home is about ~2600/month which is roughly a 40% tax. I’m also in debt for school about $25,000 which is *MUCH* lower than average.
It’s not even that any extra cash is taxed at 50%. It’s just a straight 40% tax (for me) and I’m still expected to pay for my own (shitty, non comprehensive) healthcare.
Decent insurance for a family is about $800 a month ($9600 a year). Your out of pocket before they cover 100% is $5000. The $5000 out of pocket is only for one person. Each person on insurance has to meet the $5000 deductible. For a family of 3, it is $24,600 a year before your family is covered 100%.
The best part of it is that the insurance company can decide what doctors you use, what prescriptions they cover (and there are price tiers. Not all prescriptions cost the same) and what procedures they will cover. And surprise, they can decide after the fact that they don't cover something.
I once had chemotherapy delayed because they wanted to make sure it was medically necessary. They wanted to make sure that there wasn't a cheaper alternative.
All this from a company with stock at almost $400 a share and $3.4 billion in profits.
The US really doesn’t have drastically lower taxes or drastically higher wages though. It’s just all part of the propaganda it’s built to stop people for fighting for change.
>The US really doesn’t have drastically lower taxes or drastically higher wages though.
I'm not saying health care and education aren't gigantic problems in the US. But unless my Google-Fu is really bad, even a quick search shows that the US federal income tax and VAT (US State) type taxes are drastically lower total on average, ten to fifty per cent in some cases. And is 4th in average wage world-wide. Only behind very small countries with small populations and insane costs of living comparatively (Luxembourg, Switzerland, Iceland).
If you have some source that shows the numbers are bad, I'd love to see it as it would make me feel better about having to disagree when I know how shitty US healthcare and education are on average.
It's alot more, especially if any medicine is used. So always ask for an itemized bill before you leave any hospital. You will be charged for those unused iv bags if not.
You can compare with your records and prove it. 😏 former Healthcare work..just saying.
Saline bags are about $800 here in the US lol
Price of living Vs. Cost of living
When I stick you on the ambulance for and iv, you pay my fire dept $400 for the iv bag, which costs about 1.50, you pay $50 for the 25 cent needle and you pay me $300 to stick you with it.. I make $18 an hour as a vol/call medic... The insurance company negotiates a rate and that $1200 ambulance ride turns into 500, if you don't have insurance, we send you a bi for $1200...yes it's disgusting..
What's sad is the guy who is responsible for saving diabetics' lives with insulin fought an uphill battle doing it and didn't try to get rich off it. Sorry, I edited my grammatical error.
He's been rolling in his grave for a while.
He literally gave the patent away.
They always concoct long, needlessly complex stories to hide the simple truth... that pharma spends a fuck load of money lobbying congress to allow them to rape the masses. It REALLY is that simple.
It’s not a long story.
It’s just greed. Literally nothing more.
A study in 2018 estimated that one vial of human insulin costs only $2.28- $3.42 to produce and that one vial of analog insulin costs only $3.69- $6.16 to produce.
It has nothing to do with affordability. It's about the extortion of a group literally reliant on the product to survive.
Long story: greed.
Yes, government policies enable firms to price discriminate and gouge consumers, especially when given a monopoly
America is way different, I have type 1 diabetes and the pharmas are allowed to do that here.
A study in 2018 estimated that one vial of human insulin costs only $2.28- $3.42 to produce and that one vial of analog insulin costs only $3.69- $6.16 to produce.
In the US, it's all about extorting as much money as humanly possible on those reliant on a product.
Or pay offs.
> Only illegal if you dont give govt its cut
this, so much this.
when I was manufacturing hot sauces (small batch, high end types) the amount of red tape and fees, licenses and other stuff is absurd. Don't pay for that inspection? fine. Don't pay for the annual license? fine. Don't pay for the extra licenses and certifications? fine fine fine. But pay the fees and licenses? They don't bother you, or even checking in (maybe the inspection, but I was never inspected they just took my check and gave me approval for my kitchen)
every step of the way is a fine, or a hand out expecting a payment. once paid, they don't care anymore. they just want their cut
I owned a business once, lots of bribes and back room deals. Also it was who you knew otherwise the local and state would fuck you. Then the big boys would come along later, that's if you made any money or had any left over. I tried to start another business later on but local mfg's saw it as a threat and made sure i didn't get any backing.
Government gets its cut either way. What makes it legal is giving *politicians* their cut and buying ads in the corporate media.
Why don't you guys revolt against this gangster bull shit.
It's legal for them to kill you if you dont pay them.
Seriously, go to Amazon and look up what they are selling N95 masks for right now. Seventy to one hundred dollars for masks that cost twenty bucks a month or two back. Where is the FBI right now? Wouldn't we all laugh if Jeff Bezos was arrested for committing the same crime this idiot committed?
Kaos2018 is a spam account
Comment copied from: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/ldwd4n/n95/gm82yhu/
Hijacking the top comment and all. What a douch.
Why did you put this on /r/holup?
Applies to any crime
IRS don't care if you're doing crime so long as you remember to give them a cut of the profits.
Just look what happened to Al Capone or the Joker.
Yup. It's literally in the IRS guidelines. They explicitly mention that you have to declare your income from illegal activity, and also declare the fair market value of any items you steal, along with specific instructions on which section to file which sort of illegal activities under...
Here's the [link](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17), search in page for "illegal activities" or "stolen property:
**Illegal activities.** Income from illegal activities, such as money
from dealing illegal drugs, must be included in your income on Schedule 1
(Form 1040), line 8z, or on Schedule C (Form 1040) if from your
**Stolen property.** If you steal property, you must report its fair
market value in your income in the year you steal it unless you return
it to its rightful owner in the same year.
I remember this defense lawyer who spoke to my 1L criminal law class once who broke down white-collar crime like this:
- rich stealing from poor: legal and cool
- rich stealing from rich: legal, but not cool
- poor stealing from rich: illegal and totally not cool
What about poor stealing from poor?
Please, it's urgent
That would be the 'illegal but cool' category.
I refer you to the clearance rate for theft/larceny cases for an answer (spoiler alert, the clearance rate is very low).
Illegal and not cool, but police doesn’t care.
Beat up a homeless person close to death and nobody blinks. Punch a senator's son in the face once and everybody freaks out.
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread
Well, there’s only punishment for the lower class.
That's the most depressingly funny thing I've read today.
As a diabetic I'd love to get my insulin veil and not spend 800$ a peice
\*Laughs in European\*
\*Laughs in Australian\*
Crys in American
The house passed a bill thats caps the price of insulin at 35$ passed two months ago they also passed on the 1st a no suprise bill that gets rid of suprise medical bills
\*Laughs in European about skin cancer\*
He should have payed a lobbyist.
why is that illegal?
Hoarding medical supplies and attempting to price gouge on health should always be illegal. I’d argue it’s not illegal enough, since congressmen get away with it but non-political citizens don’t.
Yeah you're right,I just doesn't understand why the FBI raided them
Trump passed an executive order in 2019 making gouging and hoarding of PPE a federal crime. This image is 2 years old.
Trump's a chad for that
Nobody is gonna arrest Joe Manchin's daughter.
[what a gross piece of shit](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia/comments/ohvvmx/heather_bresch_ceo_of_mylan_that_increased_the/h4s0v32/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
You can't make money! That's only what rich people are allowed to do!
It's only bad if the little guy does something. Corporations are allowed!
Link to article not Twitter please?
This is Reddit, a screenshot of a tweet or a homemade meme is all the proof anyone needs.
Eh, at the very least [there’s sizeable nugget of truth here](https://www.nydailynews.com/news/villian-selling-coronavirus-supplies-20200330-ppda2n5zoza6fcingzk3lvagha-story.html). It’s a story from around two year ago
Is the tweet 2 years old too? No time stamps... this does affect my vote. Source do not have Twitter
Pretty sure I remember this from close to the beginning of the first toilet paper, mask, etc shortages and stuff.
Yeah he had thousands of masks in his house. I definitely remember that from the beginning of the pandemic.
Right, and they had been declared a critical medical item by the state department as well, and from the article his clients included doctors and nurses staffing up medical teams - of course there's no mention of how many his customers were med teams and how many were just random neighbors etc, but this wasn't quite a simple case of "guy loads up on TP at costco".
No idea on the age of the tweet, and I’m too lazy to go looking for that part
I remember when this happened. It was a guy from New York who was doing it and when they went in to take away all those masks from him, he proceeded to spit on the authorities while he was arrested. Despicable human being
Cool, now do the gpu scalpers next
I do this with used condoms and have had no encounters with the law. Even sell for 1000% markup
Where’s the hol’ up?
No no you see this wasn't a corporation doing it. It was an individual citizen making a profit. You see the difference now right civilian?
This image is over 2 years old
And it's hit the front page at least 7 times.
r/whitepeopletwitter is that way
I hate how every big subs becomes a politics sub
Also hit up the ps5 scalpers
I contribute to retirement and pay for healthcare?
Only behind very small countries with small populations and insane costs of living comparatively?
Why doesn’t the Reddit comments just make insulin companies and undercut the market?
Put this shit on r/whitepeopletwitter
This sub has become shit tier, looking like every other left leaning sub these days
Yeah, this nonsensical right wing bullshit lie has to end. My insulin prices never went down under trump. Im a type 1 diabetic. I would know.
Well, typical to Trump he said "do A", without addressing the resulting B, C and D nightmares it created. Trump's action put every health clinic in the program, independently in charge of constantly verifying users income and if they were under poverty guideline standards, and if they screwed it up they'd face Federal penalties. Health clinics operating on shoestring budgets, especially during Covid, don't have the people, money and resources to track and verify the income of everybody who needed the service, so that action as-written was rescinded.
A federal program is now being developed to address the issue, but the action still requires the government to purchase insulin at unnegotiated prices, which literally only makes the asshole company (Senator Joe Manchin's daughter) who spiked the cost of insulin, richer. It's like Trump made a rule that we could only purchase oil to refill our nation's oil reserves when oil prices were at their peak. It was beyond dumb. Trump was obviously terrible at negotiation and business.
Any reason the Federal penalties couldn't have been removed so we keep the system in the meantime without requiring income verification?
I get it's a bad short term, but it seems better than uncapping the price limit.
I think by law health clinics had to provide the service as written, and they requested it be rewritten, so instead of a quick bandaid that might have screwed something else up, the Biden administration took a long boring professional approach to sorting it out. It still doesn't address our government buying unnegotiated Insulin, but I agree with you that a temp fix would have been better, but I think Covid made a lot of normal possible things pretty impossible regarding health care right now.
I'm not here to debate every detail. I'm sorry. I just knew it wasn't as simple as "Trump cut Insulin costs, Biden stopped it" because this isn't Bizarro World.
It's worth noting that the Build Back Better bill has provisions to cap insulin prices for consumers.
Means testing is such a waste of time and resources, and for what. Just do it for everyone. No one chooses to need insulin.
Exactly. No one chooses to have a medical condition that needs treatment. Thus, universal healthcare is the only solution with the public’s best interest at heart.
Made insulin affordable for whom?
Except Trump didn’t really make insulin affordable and Biden reversed Trump’s order because it was (predictably) causing other issues
What issues was it causing?
>Well, typical to Trump he said "do A", without addressing the resulting B, C and D nightmares it created. Trump's action put every health clinic in the program, independently in charge of constantly verifying users income and if they were under poverty guideline standards, and if they screwed it up they'd face Federal penalties. Health clinics operating on shoestring budgets, especially during Covid, don't have the people, money and resources to track and verify the income of everybody who needed the service, so that action as-written was rescinded.
>A federal program is now being developed to address the issue, but the action still requires the government to purchase insulin at unnegotiated prices, which literally only makes the asshole company (Senator Joe Manchin's daughter) who spiked the cost of insulin, richer. It's like Trump made a rule that we could only purchase oil to refill our nation's oil reserves when oil prices were at their peak. It was beyond dumb. Trump was obviously terrible at negotiation and business.
>HHS finds the 2020 Rule’s
implementation would have resulted in reduced resources available to support critical services to
health center patients — including those who use insulin and injectable epinephrine. HHS’s
consideration of the 2020 Rule’s impact was informed, in part, by the demands on health centers
resulting from the COVID-19 pandemic. As Executive Order 13937 remains in effect, HHS is
exploring non-regulatory options to implement the Executive Order.
Insulin costs in america are just awful. So glad not to be American
Same. I'm reading this, sitting here with gestational diabetes, with free insulin. All my diabetes equipment was completely free. Only thing i had to pay was €20 for a box of 100 needles for the insulin pens. They will last me my entire pregnancy.
What's illegal here? Was he a minority? What am I missing?
I found this:
From April 2020
It seems that under the "Defense Production Act", the federal government can seize property which it has decided are essential in an emergency or for national defense. But, they must compensate the owner "at fair market value" -- which is whatever the government feels like paying, I guess.
Nek minnit, FBI raids twitter user Bae Guevara's home and found the 2 pounds of canabis that they bought with them........
Now they need to do it to corporations. Its been 2 years so they're raising prices. Record profits and raising prices.
Police are there to protect the companies not us. They probably took them and sold them for what he was.
Please my type one diabetes begs
[found a legitimate source](https://nypost.com/2020/03/30/brooklyn-man-arrested-for-hoarding-masks-coughing-on-fbi-agents/)
Then who the fuck is going to make all the insulin?!?!
Why was he raided again? Did he steal those masks or something? I don't think usa has an anti hoarding law
did he break the law? isn’t this just capitalism?
Oh, but, you see, they aren't hoarding them, they just have an insanely high base price, so it's fine!
Joe Manchin needs to go.
They should really go after the assholes who marked up the EpiPen
Desantis has exited the chat.