How do you feel about ougi lockout and ougi comps in the current meta?
By - kingdragon671
As a 400ms ping player, i enjoy ougi comps since no way in hell i can't even see lockout no matter what i do lol.
Eurogang rise up
When I realized that I can't compete against Japanese ping I started just doing things for fun, ougi and skill dmg comps, and activating animations on summons again.
I too have ~~400~~ 300 and I don't use ougis because of lockout.
Unless you don't reload you can feel lockout with this ping even with just two chains sometimes.
With mudfish I have 150 and here it becomes much worse.
edit: actually my average ping is 300ms, so you have it much worse. I'm so sorry you must to suffer this much.
I would honestly quit this game if I had your ping, I already hate playing w/ 150. Can't imagine 400
It's not that bad when you get over the fact that you wont be racing in anything relevant ever.
This. But maybe the op really likes esporting in gacha games.
eSports in a gacha game that has US and EU servers then without fear of legal jurisdictions for legalized gambling
As a guy with a shit ping, it actually helps me since it slows jp.
As they are now, they’re far too punishing/restrictive when you need to zoom.
Like we have a million and one anytime assassins and a shitton of gorilla type units so there’s no real reason for them to be as long as they are.
When you called ougi aka. ultimate move ... but hit far more lower in dps than your normal slap ... something not right.
Ougis simply don't do enough dmg currently. Ougi soft cap dmg is fairly easy to reach with autos now a days and normalization prevents ougi builds from scaling the same way auto builds can.
Simply put, this is a numbers problem. They can increase the general cap for ougis as well as increase the lockout on autos which would bring the two closer in line with each other.
No idea why this crusty old system is still in place. Ten years ago it made sense, now it doesn't. The fact that all the top autohit characters deal more damage in a single turn than the best Ougi unit does, and this kind of lockout still is a thing, is mind boggling. And then there's also zero restrictions for skill damage.
I was always under the impression that ougi lockout exists because they made these cool ougis and didn't want to penalize people too much for watching them/didn't want to encourage people to refresh so much.
Once upon a time ougis did more damage than autos with a 1.1m cap unless you played Tia, dark or agni with korwa and zoey because damage and ma were a real problem. Then better weapons and buffs came on top of easier access to echoes
Bit too late to keep that mindset nowadays.
Ougis tend to have the highest sustainable, low-button DPT (skill setups can burst for more, but are CD restricted & need tons of buttons, auto-skill setups need to mash a huge number of turns, and auto setups can burst for more but run out of steam & have more trouble against high DEF), so generally my way of looking at it is that the lockout forces racing into the higher-risk types of play.
You can kind of see how this could be relevant looking at Bubs and Belial, where dark/water kengo "just full chain ~every turn lol" are some of the best ways to rack up honors even with the lockout.
I was kind of thinking this too. Most of the assassin burst team comps are pretty specific setups and have certain button orders that need to be used. They also tend to deal all that obscene damage for a single turn or maybe two.
I have a decent water grid, and with something like Kengo, Dog, Mirin, and Zeta, I can basically use Bonito then just leave a fight on full auto and rack up some pretty big numbers relative to my grid strength. It doesn't hit as hard nor as fast as the best assassin teams, but it's really fire and forget.
With my internet I ain't competing with anyone reload or no reload so the whole ougi lockout thing means nothing to me.
They're in a decent place for some elements. Past GWs have shown they are absolutely no slouches. You won't beat alt shiva lucha or some super sweaty mash, but you are still getting respectable times. It really isn't as bad as people think it is, except for fire probably, whose ougi is just outright miserable to nonexistent.
Lineups that can repeatedly ougi every single turn do a lot of shit. We seen this with Eugen GK Okto teams or a similar degree, or Vajra Sochie +any. As long as they provide more avenues and ways to repeatedly get ougi charge max ougi comps will remain good.
fire can do sub2 150 with ougis. ixaba mh kengo. 2 fullpots every turn
I'm legitimately curious: since multiple of your recent suggestions call for fullpots every turn or every fight, where are you getting so many that you can use them in hundreds of fights every GW?
you don't need to use a whole lot you just have to use enough that the opponent sees a huge ass wall in 15 minutes and gives up
anyway they are farmed from coop slime
Honestly, as with everything regarding how MVP/Blue Chests are distributed, the problem are less the individual parts and more that in conjunction they create a toxic gameplay.
Lockout is a problem because you need to race with other people or get no rewards, ping is problem for the same reason, lack of diversity in end game setups have the same problem and probably more that i can't think about.
I don't actually have a solution here, but just removing the lockout is another band-aid fix on top of various band-aid fixes.
The limitations surrounding ougis are essentially a relic of a bygone era when the primary concern was simply reaching the damage cap, which I would say was far easier to accomplish with ougis than auto-attacks especially when you consider the weaker characters, grids, and summons at the time.
Even if you eliminate lockout, you'd need to address the actual damage limitations of ougis, because it's still ludicrously underpowered at its peak compared to anything auto attacks can achieve. As a sample, it is hilarious that standalone Grand Narmaya still outstrips ULB Siete in the damage department by a pretty noticeable margin, this before you even start including things like Summer Korwa or Summer Anila in the equation.
Ougis are underrated especially amongst gaijins who mostly don't have the ping to play mash setups. Many of the fastest players I know in EN community regularly use ougi comps because they realize that whatever incomplete auto comp they have is slower than just going le ougi (and also its way more chill). No, top rankers probably won't use it, but you aren't a top ranker.
Ougi comps are certainly not as bad as people make them out to be. Used them for the last 2 GWs to a fair degree of success, esp during Water favored. Ougis are also technically getting buffed thanks to the sentence/excelsior changes, so we do have something to look forward to in this regard.
Y'know where ougi comps actually kinda suck though? Full auto, by courtesy of their long ass animations.
Ougi lockout could stand to be lower, true, but since this is essentially a DPS problem, it could also be solved by giving them more damage/damage cap up. I feel like we're slowly getting there, but ougis are probably not going to replace auto comps where they shine. And isn't that fine? It's not like ougis have no place in the game, 1 turn setups still cover the majority of farmable content and even prelims for most players.
If an Ougi was just a flat nuke instead of an animation, it might improve some things, but then there is the buffstorm of skills being applied- which is why you use them - with every other character following suit [Freyr summon included]. But again the game will fall further into the abyss of "might as well just turn everything off or skip it" for the sake of it.
In my opinion the lockout isn't an issue. There will always be a fastest racing comp and it will always involve incredibly specific units and grid pieces. Eliminating ougi characters from contention doesn't even shrink the pool close to the optimal range, so it's mostly irrelevant and you might as easily complain that Defense or Healer characters can't race.
Also, as someone with 130 Okto, you can still race "casually" with ougi comps provided the ougis are chunky enough. In fact they may even be more effective depending on your ping and playing hours: Relic Buster's 2 buttons are faster than the various Naru cannons.
That said, having Okto reveals the real problem with ougis, which is that they are still super punished in V2 and High Difficulty content. First of all, stuff like supplemental and multi-hit synergizes incredibly well and intuitively and is indifferent to defense. This means it not only functions as cap break in low def content, but it's also "guaranteed" damage against high def.
Comparatively, ougi is incredibly awkward in that Special Cap doesn't raise the "normal cap" (much less help provide damage to meet it, which can get tough in high DEF). Moreover, the push for multi-hit and skill damage in V2 often makes it non-viable to ougi anyway. Even if you do, Fated Chains are underwhelming since you tend to need to save them for specific triggers (I personally think they should be able to cancel any trigger in addition to Fated-Chain-only triggers).
Cygames has somewhat addressed this by giving ougi characters skill damage (often in multi-hit form) on ougi, but like Special Cap Up (which just artificially reels back a damage limit they could adjust themselves) they're sort of working backwards which makes the whole archetype feel clunky.
That said, "current meta" is the key word here. Kengonito had its hayday so it's not like ougi was never good. And if they start adding "deal less than X hits" or "do X damage in one instance" omens, ougi could easily see a resurgence.
tl;dr - Lockout/racing is a red herring. Special Cap Up is stupid and unintuitive, but whatever. Ougi's real problem is just the lack of meta fights that appreciate them, which Cygames can (and hopefully will) change at any time.
>That said, having Okto reveals the real problem with ougis, which is that they are still super punished in V2 and High Difficulty content.
While your reasoning makes sense, the reality of the matter is that ougi comps are some of the best for hard content and V2, simply because it's easy to deal high ougi damage against high defense. Not to mention that dealing x amount of damage in 1 turn is a common omen requirement, which is easily met by ouging. It's true that multi hit skill damage deals with things even more easily, but this and ougi comps don't necessarily exclude each other. Wind is actually a prime example of this, as the ougi comp and the skill damage comp are basically the same. In general, there is a decent overlap between high ougi damage, good skill damage and hard content utility.
You also mentioned supplemental damage, which we do have for ougis and it's pretty strong. It's one of the reasons why Dark Kengo is so good, after all.
I agree with you that Special Cap Up is really awkward and stupid, but it shouldn't even play a role in the context of V2/Hard content. If you're anywhere near the regular boosted damage cap, you're already succeeding.
You make good points, although I would feel much more seen (lol) if there were more omens or mechanics only ougis could solve (compared to eg. multi-hit or skill damage, which ougis are either completely anemic against or require character-specific hedges by Cygames). But maybe kits just need to be too stuffed these days to compete for that ever to be viable again (Okto is a respectable effort though, the cut and delay spam carves a decent HL niche at 130).
Also shout-out to Dimension Halo which is simply rude.
>Also shout-out to Dimension Halo which is simply rude.
Tell me about it. Would be great if they got rid of that hard cap.
I think the reason might be, that they don't want people to accidentally kill the Halo before it transforms.
It doesn't matter if you kill it before it transforms. You get the shard regardless.
But people can already kill DHalo before it transform though...
I doubt they're doing it accidentally
>You also mentioned supplemental damage, which we do have for ougis and
it's pretty strong. It's one of the reasons why Dark Kengo is so good,
Does this involve using the Skill Pendulum Opus as a MH?
I mean weapons like Fediel's Spine and Galleon's Jaw. They supplement ougi damage quite a lot.
Whoops. Forgot the spine had that lol.
> And if they start adding "deal less than X hits" or "do X damage in one instance" omens, ougi could easily see a resurgence.
A few of the Babyl floors seemed to test out that idea with a "sharp reduction in damage taken after 30 hits in a turn" buff to the boss.
Are we talking about the meta of the .1% of GBF players, or the meta of most players? Because for most players, this doesn't honestly matter. And where it would matter, people are gated by ping anyways. As long as you don't live near Japan you will never compete.
If you're trying to do hard content then the lockout doesn't matter then either. And as far as I know racing LuciHL, Bubz, Belial, etc. doesn't actually give you any substantial benefit anyways.
when i joined, ougis comparatively did way more damage than my autos - at least partly because my grid was trash, but i'm of the impression it was mostly true for everyone. the lockout was to combat this. it made sense at the time, but i feel like removing it now is also a way of admitting that ougis aren't as strong anymore, so i doubt they'd do it without rigorously testing the effects beforehand.
ougi lockout should be reduced but it should still be there else the meta for longer fights could favor ougi teams entirely
ougi comps are a treat to play but there are limited options available per element especially if you're magna which is unfortunate
I think its a lot less of a problem than it used to be honestly. Outside of hardcore GW racing and GB brick racing I don't think its as much of an issue anymore. They've made important grid weapons a lot more available so the need to race for mvp and blue chests in M2 raids isn't quite as important compared to the first year they were out.
I casually tested 1T burst on dummies to see how much better/worse ougi teams are. Granted, it's a pretty imperfect test; I don't have ULB Six or Threo and I just took whatever teams I had available.
- RB/Shalem/Samira/Nier/Six Celeste x Qilin - 5 button + summon; 48m
- Lucha/Six/Zoi/Nier/Rei/Pred Celeste x Qilin - 9 buttons + summon; 58m
- Chry/Eugen/GK/Okto Ygg x HL - 4 buttons + summon; no mist; 49m
- Lucha/Ilnot/Fio/Naru Ygg x Gorilla - 7 buttons + 1 summons; 68m
- Lucha/Ilnot/Fio/Naru Ygg x Gorilla - 7 buttons + 3 summons; 84m (3T prep burst)
When you consider that each of the lucha comps needed TT, so another refresh, it actually is a bit clearer how good ougi comps are in terms of DPT and per-button press. Without TT, the 1T bursts generally matched or did worse than ougi, even when switching off to masq for the echoes + double strike on MC. There are probably threeish misconceptions I guess in this thread:
**Ougis don't do as much DPT as auto**: This is true, but probably only when you consider that tag team/double strike exists. The former case is another refresh, so it is a bit more intensive. This is pretty easily seen in Bubs, where DPT is king - that's where you see more ougi teams rather than mash/AA ones.
**Ougis require every button press to match autos**: This is pretty much false. In the setups above (and the dirt ones are what I used for nm95), ougi setups basically require way fewer button presses or turns in general compared to AA teams.
**Ougis are slow**: From what I remember, ougi teams last GW were relatively competitive for solos barring shiva alting and duo/trios, but also had a much lower bar of entry. You didn't even need ULB Okto.
The main catch is just lockout, really, and that weakness gets covered up by bad ping.
IMHO ougis are massively underrated for GW for gaijins. If you're mostly soloing and not going to alt your way, ougi teams are super easy and comfy for GW. Last GW you could get sub1 in nm95 and ~2:45 for nm150 with ougis. It won't be the very best teams, but it is very easy to hit 1b/t80k with them.
I'm just a casual player though, so I guess take it with a grain of salt.
with higher ping, ougi teams can somewhat be used in nm's and have decent clear speed; but the main catch is freeing up your damn hands, ougi teams generally are easier to use and has less button mashing to do
I know a lot of people who used glory chain in gw
I think the base cap should be readjusted to 2.2m for normal characters with a 500/550% modifier, and 5.5m for a 1250% modifier character, with Eternals being somewhere in the middle with 3.8m cap.
They should keep the hard cap of whatwasitagain?18m?, though, so you can just see higher numbers in general and really feel those weapons you put in your grid, because sentence weapons tend to suck arse with their other skills, not really justifying a grid slot unless you have a whole team of 1250% mod characters.
While I enjoy seeing the high numbers on Izmir (6-7m with my bad grid and without any cap-up weapons/weapon effects feels great), I know that a proper team with enough bonus damage,supplemental damage and crit modifiers can outperform that.
Given that you normally cannot use charge attacks every turn, they should be a lot stronger than normal attacks. I further believe that charge attack supplements should have no cap and actually go by percentage value, for example Izmirs CA supplement shouldn't be 100k, but instead 10% of the CA damage, since these are pretty rare and pretty pathetic right now.
Isnt there a cap on hl raids of 6.5~ mil? After 6.5 mil you need some insane level of damage to go above that.
yeah, 6.5 mil on every raid beisdes Four Primarch during Raphael
After reading again, it seems 13.1m is the hard cap. 6.6m is the cap for hl content, and going beyond that is only reasonably possible with Grand Cagliostro (8.58m for hl and 17.03m for other content).
It's sometimes ridiculous trying to full chain and then stuck loading for 10 or more seconds before the raid continues. At this point the regular caps are just too low to justify bringing characters for charge attacks to highly populated raids, in most cases earning a blue chest will be difficult, let alone trying to grab a red one,especially if your ping is bad on top of that lockout.
pls make ougis have the same lockout as autos. ougi will still lose even with same lockout
Noobie here, what exactly is this ougi lockout mechanic? I know ougi comps are not ideal in any element (I think even in water you'd rather go crit for most things?) but what exactly is ougi lockout and how does it contribute to ougi comps being underwhelming?
To give some extra context to what AdmiralKappaSND is saying about lockout:
When you want to go fast, you will generally want to refresh the window after your attack starts. This skips directly to your next turn, meaning you don't have to sit and watch through all the animations of your characters or the boss attacking. The lockout is the time it takes after starting an attack before you can take another action.
Every action in the game have lockout even autos. The term "ougi lockout" is kind of a misnomer, if were looking at it from practical sense where the more proper term is "Chain Burst lockout". This is because once you activate Chain Burst(2+ Ougi), the lockout on your actions are significantly higher than it was without them. On an old table about lockout, the highest possible lockout with 1 ougi are 4.5 seconds, while the lowest possible lockout with 2 ougi are 7.4 seconds. In a sense, if you are refreshing 1 ougi, theres a decent chance that you can resume your action after it without seeing a lockout. With 2 you mostly would see a lockout. So if were talking from an optimization perspective you want to rig your ougi timing so that you only do 1 ougi per turn. This was actually used as a concept in various Soldier comps iirc. In fact one of the strongest burst set up in the entire game right now for one of the more popular bar raids uses this concept.
"Chain Burst" lockout contributes to Ougi set ups being at times underwhelming because on top of Ougi already having a certain cap to their damage output you can simply take less action with ougi in the same time autos set ups are able to do shenanigans
How do you know which ping you have on the game ?
I'm playing from France andthe more player there is on the boss the less I can do
Open cmd, type "ping game.granbluefantasy.jp"
good to know, I guess my ping is not so bad with 248 ms, sitting at the heart of Europe.
Yeah, most of the places in the world are fine. I live on the opposite side of Japan and got 345ms.
It's just that they are way too fast. :P
I very much dislike it, it's still quite good for high DPT or DPM setups in harder raids but anywhere else I just find myself building for ougi off setups when I full auto or just auto focused setups for burst. Like it's no coincidence ougi off setups end up being the fastest for gw full auto clears.
I wish they would do something about the lockout but it doesn't seem like it, so currently ougi setups just seem like newbie player bait to me. I'm very open for change though
Earth feels insane for this now between Eugen, Eahta, Galleon's Jaw, and Relic Buster. Support Qilin ironically better for ougispam than Huanglong.
It's not optimal of course, but when you don't live in Japan it hardly matters.
If ougi lockout continues to be a thing, Tag Team should have lockout since it's actually more damage at top end content. And full TA turns. Which is basically my way of saying it made sense when ougi was meta, but now feels unnecessary.
Late to the thread but lockout is necessary and good. If cygames wants to buff ougi setups, increasing the hard global cap to something higher is the way to go instead. You get the benefit of enjoying the hard spike in damage with ougis without making them roll over every other setup in all content that way.
Honestly, if they removed the ougi lockout and made no other changes, ougi comps would still be non-meta in most elements. The only element where I can see ougi comps being as good as auto comps would be water, and even then it’s only because water is already the weakest element and its only auto option for magna is Auberon. Plus, Vajra exists. But there’s no way ougi comps could ever compete with Mim/Alanaan, Korwa/Naru, literally everything in earth, or Seox/Predator. Dark would be the closest (with Vikala as the key player) but even then burst racing like Akasha would stay about the same.
Fire Kengo Anila Shion Mugen/S.Izmir would absolutely stomp Mim/Alanaan if there is no lockout.
Lmao do you really believe that? Ougi compositions can average over 50mil / turn with low buttons the only thing holding them back is lockout.
Honestly im somewhat sure that if lockout are heavilly reduced, Siete would basically become Summer Korwa-lite so theres at least one thing there that shoots up immediately