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Artificial Intelligence Is America’s Achilles Heel Against China

Artificial Intelligence Is America’s Achilles Heel Against China

pikindaguy

> The U.S. has lagged in STEM education, and privacy rules preclude much gathering of massive data sets for experimentation. Interesting how the author groups these two things together as if they're both equally bad things


afaber003

Well to be fair, in terms of training AI they are both bad things. This doesn’t have to do with the ethics behind what gathering that data would entail. It is merely saying that this lack of data collection is hurting the US’s ability to create competent AI


nameTotallyUnique

Well lack of data might promote more competent AI algorithms. One shot learning for example. Also it depends what data we are speaking of? Because I can't see how lacking personal data could affect an ai working sorting items at a storage. Or finding an optimal shape for a windmill wing.


Key_Vegetable_1218

I don’t think you know a lot about AI. Most AI involves neural nets and these require data to train. Lots of data. AI is not just some general intelligence. AI is trained to do a specific task and requires a lot of that specific data to train it self to do that task.


Aquacide

That was his point exactly, why would knowing when I go out to dinner or use the bathroom be useful in designing a more aerodynamic car that personal information would not be useful


nameTotallyUnique

I think your thinking about improving AI currently used. When I think improve AI I think about the concept. You don't need any data in order to improve an algorithm. Or figure out better training methods, neural structures or something new. Forexample data augmenting was probably first thought about because of a lack of data.


TheBigPhilbowski

Unless you can cite that as the specific bottleneck somewhere, you're talking out of the wrong end friend. We don't create, identify or nuture the talent well in the US. We also practically close our borders to the world and lose out on amazing international talent because of nationalism and plain racism. Not having access to a robust data set is maybe number 56 on the list explaining our deficit, if it makes the list at all.


EddieFitzG

> We also practically close our borders to the world Covid aside, this isn't true at all. We let schools and business abuse the crap out of the immigration system, paying shit wages and using visas as the actual payment.


RunThatIn

poaching international talent instead of developing our own here in the US is detrimental to both the US and the country these people come from. Blaming it all on racism is an extremely lazy take


TheBigPhilbowski

It's a combined strategy, home and abroad, and we are losing ground abroad. Add to that republicans actively sabotaging education to keep a docile, ignorant voter. There is no US, we stole the land from the Native Americans, African slave labor built the wealth, relocated Nazis secured our military strength and sent us to the moon. There is no America.


RunThatIn

dude you’re the person who used the term “the US” . I guess it only exists when it’s convenient to whatever point you’re trying to make minute by minute?


TheBigPhilbowski

I appreciate you calling this out and agree with the clear bias. Shareholder profit over humanity.


Bewaretheicespiders

I work in the field of AI. It is true that China is ruthlessly investing in it, and China publishes more AI research paper than everyone else nowadays. But the quality isnt there yet, and most of the game-changing stuff still comes from USA and Canada. Plus the USA have NVidia which is really the backbone of AI, both on the software and hardware side. I would say the weakness if more on the *adoption* of AI technologies. Too many luddites in north america. Having access to the same technologies, China is quicker in using it to improve productivity.


spreadlove5683

Doesn't Google have the most advanced tech in the world in regards to general AI right now? Is this one thing the US may continue to have over China going forward?


Bewaretheicespiders

Google focuses on huuuuge models, but it doesn't always pays off imo.


Stayvfraw

Eric Schmidt made an amazing point that because the US privacy laws are not as loose as China’s, the US will be forced to create AI systems that learn more efficiently (using smaller sample sizes) than their Chinese counterparts, which may lead to a technological advantage. Of course, he empathized, that relies on the US being competent enough in creating and fostering AI researchers capable of effectively competing with China’s, so that they don’t beat us in BOTH mass sample size systems and small sample size systems. I thought that was a neat pointed and wanted to share. In either case, we need AI systems to develop a lot faster.


andrewgazz

How did the author measure that we are falling behind exactly? He listed several techs, military or mass social media mining—both of which I’m happy to keep AI mostly out of.


Oddball_bfi

The problem with the social media thing is that the AIs are learning precisely how to push the buttons of your most disruptive sub-populations to cause mass disruption and economic harm... without ever looking like anything other than a shitpost. The social media AIs are weaponizing bias and our own, valued institutions of free speech and resistance to censorship. When someone tries to step in to mitigate a disinformation attack, they are accused of censorship. You can see the effects of this sort of programme - even without the help of AI - in the Israeli tactic of equating 'anti-Israel' with 'anti-Semitic', anti vaccination rhetoric, voter fraud messages... all designed to disrupt conversation and prevent high-level public discussion of issues. Cross-aisle politics, and social cohesion, is being destroyed from the social media platform up.


jimsmisc

>The problem with the social media thing is that the AIs are learning precisely how to push the buttons of your most disruptive sub-populations to cause mass disruption and economic harm... without ever looking like anything other than a shitpost. This is true, and utterly lost on way too much of the population. The irony is that if you say this is happening -- and it's uncontroversial in intelligence and tech circles to do so -- you'll get branded as an alarmist/conspiracy theorist. But the same exact people who hand wave this away as conspiracy theory *then buy into* every nonsense conspiracy promoted by trollfarms and AI bots.


CrunchySockTaco

Our rugged individualism will be our downfall in the states.


not_lurking_this_tim

>rugged individualism Obstinate individualism. Rugged means tough. They're not tough, they're stubborn and stupid.


bewareofmolter

Truth. Though I read that comment as “rugged individualism.”


TheBigPhilbowski

I'd even go further to say BLIND individualism. A majority of Americans could probably not answer the basic question of why when it comes to our isolationist stances.


RavagerTrade

Obstinate Individualism. Love that.


pikindaguy

I don't know if the (extreme) alternative, i.e. looking like China, is better. I think the US is far too big to fully unite as one, which is why a country like China has to take the measures it takes to maintain control of its citizens. It's likely not something we'd want to adopt.


Filthy_Lucre36

Let's face it, the American empire is declining and being rapidly outpaced by China's autocracy. Our political system is so fractured I'm not sure if it can survive the digital, social media age where no one knows what's real and a 1000 players work to manipulate us.


HanYoloss

Would you suggest we switch to a system like China’s?


Filthy_Lucre36

Not a bit. But we do need a system that can shield us more from manipulation.


HanYoloss

I agree. The mass polarization of the population thanks to the internet allowing and promoting people into only consuming content they agree with along with making it easier for people with extreme ideologies to gather and validate their beliefs. The surge in Neo-Nazis is a good example. The internet makes it easier for extremists to communicate and validate their own beliefs, which impedes the natural societal pressure that kept these ideologies repressed in the first place.


MarcusDTobias

As much as I hate to agree as an American I see how the politics and misinformation is being so pumped up especially by the far right and culture outrage I worry this country will only ever be in a fractured state or a far right conservative state and both are quite freighting to me.


TheBigPhilbowski

It's a false dichotomy. You don't have to be US or China, pick a side! There are people doing good work in the middle, the money and the press need to come and meet them there.


CakeLawyer

Already proven true during covid.


c-two-the-d

When is the comparison stuff going to stop? It's way too late in the game to be comparing who's got a bigger dick. We need to start being constructive cuz shit's coming undone around us and we need to be working for everyone's best interest... survival.


oep4

No shit. Almost every technology that has had a global impact was funded by the government. The “free” market is incredibly inefficient, selfish, and easy to game.


HanYoloss

Tell that to the industrial revolution


oep4

European industry was actually funded by the government. Also there was a bunch of child labor and terrible working conditions in general. Not really a good benchmark :/


HanYoloss

1st of all, as a historian, you’re completely wrong. The only “government funded” industrial growth in Europe was by the American government through the Marshall Plan after Europe destroyed itself during World War II. 2nd, literally every single industrialized nations started off with child labor legal until their economy had eventually progressed enough to afford taking kids out of the workforce and into schools.


oep4

Check the wiki on industrial revolution beyond Great Britain section continental Europe towards the end.


HanYoloss

You expect Wikipedia to be a reliable and more importantly, thorough source?


DaBIGmeow888

Everyone needs funding these days, plop in "China" and hope for the best.


imlaggingsobad

Long term I'm bullish on the US. I think they have everything they need to blow China out of the water, they just need to commit to it. The US private sector is still unparalleled. They just need to realign their goals and allocate capital more efficiently to the things that really matter.


weed-n64

The problem is Republicans have got Americans thinking that AI means there will be a race of sentient humanoid robots that’s going to come to your trailer park, steal your job, and bang your wife.


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HanYoloss

I know the award I gave you doesn’t make sense, but it’s the only one I had


entropic_apotheosis

Eh here lol


maslanyj

I love these articles. The United States is at its best when it thinks another country is gaining on them. The truth is that people have been saying the US is in a downwards spiral for as long as the country has existed. The US is messy. It is constantly self-critical. And yet every time, it pulls off a late stage comeback. Keep printing this stuff. Just pushes Americans to work harder and succeed.


shavenyakfl

The US has been in decline for decades. Most people still don't recognize it. By the time they do, it will be too late and we won't recognize the country we live in. China plays the long game. Murica plays the "next quarter" game. We are already having to start get the really smart ones (engineers, doctors, etc.) from other countries. Get used to it. The 21st century will be the Chinese century.


TheMuddyCuck

Actually, I’m pretty sure corporate greed is our Achilles heel against China.


ThatsMyCookie21

China needs robots to do everything because they’re the only ones that will work for them anymore. I have literally never seen an office building with suicide nets in the US and I am so grateful for that... they can have all the AI they want, I’ll hang on to our human lives.


Alexexy

As of 2019, China has less than half of the US's suicides per 100k people. Most European countries with possible exceptions in Spain and UK has higher suicide rates than China. Looking at historical trends dating back to 2000, it seems like suicides have trended downwards in China while suicides have trended upwards in the US.


Admirable-Platypus

So, you’re saying the suicide nets are effective?


Alexexy

I never really seen suicide nets when I visited China, but that's entirely anecdotal. I also can't speak of the efficacy of something I just heard of today. I just looked up suicide nets and it's apparently the controversy comes from its installation in Shenzhen, a place I never visited. Searching suicide nets on the web also directed me to a 2020 article where engineers built suicide nets off a bridge at Cornell University. Apparently it's based off a Swiss design that was proven to be super effective at preventing suicides.


Admirable-Platypus

Sorry dude, I was trolling with my question. Your entire argument seemed to reinforce exactly what you were trying to undermine. I thought that was funny so decided to point it out. The entire thing only peaked my interest because it came up in a discussion around ethics in supply chains recently. Apparently Foxconn have suicide nets on their factories, the company that makes the microchips for Apple, which is marketing itself as this holier than thou organisation. Which, as I’ve discovered through some other research, is all horseshit from basically any for-profit company. Anyway, I’ve neither been to China nor investigated suicide nets so I’m just a dirty little internet troll in this instance.


Alexexy

I'm not sure if undermining would be the right word for what I was trying to address lol. The guy I replied to seems to think that China is a hellhole that drives people to suicide, so I did some light research to see the actual suicide rates. I didn't know that the suicide nets was an actual thing until just now and it's more reflective of toxic Chinese work culture than a public epidemic of suicides.


ThatsMyCookie21

Google searching suicide rates is great and all, but take another 5 seconds to account for total population and a percentage doesn’t look like much. Still physically more human lives lost... Not to mention I’m suuuuuure they are super honest about it all, they’ve come to be the most trustworthy nation in world after all right? Doesn’t mean we are btw


Alexexy

That's how the WHO reports suicide rates. It's a better account of how widespread suicide is than using total population numbers. If suicide rates are the same, countries with larger populations have more people killing themselves. One could then make an argument that smaller countries are happier or some other disingenuous bs.


ThatsMyCookie21

One could also then make the argument that by simply increasing your population you are decreasing the suicides, even without actually addressing the underlying issue. Just as they build cities with shopping malls and apartments that nobody lives in to artificially show economic growth. I’m not talking about who’s happy and who’s not because that’s not my place to speak for them, the only thing that we can see is a gap of millions of people killing themselves. Physical human lives lost at almost a third of our entire population. But sure let’s go by a percentage rate... starting from 2000 to now China managed to simultaneously not only plummet their suicide rate but their poverty rate all in one. Hmmm almost as if it was their working class underpaid people killing themselves, weird how the graphs to match these numbers almost directly coincide. And if we want to follow around the WHO, their data showed from 2008-17 that not only were suicide rates outweighing any other cause of death in the country, but nearly made up a quarter of suicides for the entire world. I’m still sitting here wondering which part of the statics all of the Muslims they are shoving into camps and murdering fall under... another underpaid working class that just disappeared. Not sure where you were going with defending the horrible shit that goes on over there.


Alexexy

How am I defending horrible shit by posting suicide rates published by the WHO? If you want to make an argument about toxic Chinese workplace culture im all about it. If you want to talk about the economic effects of the One Child Policy, im all about it. I also dont think anybody should be driven to suicide because of unfair workplace expectations. But that wasn't the issue being discussed; since you're the one that brought up China's suicide rate. The most populous country on the planet is going to have the highest carbon footprint, the most suicides, and though unconfirmed by any sources I seen, likely the highest cancer deaths and teen pregnancies in terms of total population. Thats simply the way statistics work. Like the only way China would have less suicides than the US is if their suicide rate per 100k was a third of the ones in the US, a rate that only the top 20% of the 183 countries represented in the data set was able to achieve. And unless I'm mathematically wrong, China has roughly 93,666 suicides in 2019, which is a far cry from "millions of people totaling a third of our population." The number you were posting for the number of Chinese people killing themselves is like over 100 times the number of total annual GLOBAL suicides.


HanYoloss

You should keep in mind, suicide rates tend to go up in richer and more industrialized societies.


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Quarkasian

Can you directly quote where you saw that on this thread? Democrat or Republican they both do insider trading - they both support Israeli apartheid - they both are rich and get richer - they will both benefit from AI unlike regular folk.


muzakbymrfxr

Oh yeah? Well they could never beat us in drug consumption. Reigning champs.


ovirt001

It's not but hey, lets get into more fearmongering for clicks.


farticustheelder

Made In China, 2025 is more than just a slogan. It is a blueprint. The US is wasting its time on Trump's stolen election. Fiddling while the joint burns down? Absolutely mindless.


Crafty-Tackle

Yep, the Chinese will probably get there first and adopt it without many problems, and then crush us.