T O P
jadermeani

I think he makes a lot of money with them. My question is why the teams do nothing.


MoistRespect8498

If you speak up about it you'll be blessed with engine's with less performance


racingfanboy160

*Flashback to Marino Sato's tweet*


[deleted]

What did he tweet?


racingfanboy160

How he said he's on his 7th engine already...


iForgotMyOldAcc

He was a higher up at Mecachrome when they supplied engines in the late 90s. Won't be surprised if he still has strong ties with them.


racingfanboy160

Then he needs to go. Can someone even sack him!?


racingfanboy160

>I think he makes a lot of money with them. I guess that makes sense. >My question is why the teams do nothing. Yeah they honestly really need to speak up especially if they had enough of it...


Kerkun

Why would he want to replace a supplier in which he is a high figure?


racingfanboy160

He is!?


gregdrou

He is mecachromes owner


racingfanboy160

Motherf- SOMEONE SACK HIM GODDAMIT!


TheRacingElf

Because Bruno Michel only cares about Bruno Michel.


RF111CH

Most selfless & least selfish person in motorsport


racingfanboy160

If only Bruno Michel can fire Bruno Michel as well...


RF111CH

Meca~~chrome~~cronyism


Yeahletsbehonest

So, firstly FIA F2 and FIA F3 are run by a series promoter group that is owned and run by Bruno Michel. Bruno also owns a major part of Mecachrome. To get Bruno out of his company is not possible, to change the promoter would be, but at what cost? The series quality would potentially decrease for a bit, for sure things would not get cheaper either (talking about starting fee, food (a lunch did cost 70€ per person the last time I did one of the championships). Which promoter do you take? Long story short, except the WSK (running F4 Italy) and maybe the guys running GT world, everybody else is doing a worse job. Now let's say you have changed the promoter to an equivalent promoter and he wants to change the engine manufacturer... Where do you go to? Who pays for their engine development as this needs to be a 100% race engine? Who garuntees you that the other engine manufacturer is not 3x as expensive and even worse in quality, how do you know? To answer these questions: you can only have an open competition like in the F3 euroseries days with multiple engine brands, because this improves competition and quality of the product, just need to cost cap it. Get VW/Audi, Renault, Cosworth and a few others involved. But I do promise this will not be cheaper.


racingfanboy160

>firstly FIA F2 and FIA F3 are run by a series promoter group that is owned and run by Bruno Michel. Bruno also owns a major part of Mecachrome. I really don't get how F2 and F3 are so night and day. >To get Bruno out of his company is not possible, to change the promoter would be, but at what cost? The series quality would potentially decrease for a bit, for sure things would not get cheaper either (talking about starting fee, food (a lunch did cost 70€ per person the last time I did one of the championships). So were going to have accept of having engines that kept breaking down?


Yeahletsbehonest

Well F2 is a fairly complicated turbo engine that, infact is the f3 engine, and was never targeted to be turbocharged... So that's part of the game. ​ I don't think there will be a difference coming soon. Bruno pushed the old F2 out of business, which was a better championship in theory. Someone has to come and beat Bruno to the punch... but therefore you have to be friends with the guys in F1 and the FIA who make the rules and... oh wait, Bruno is in that inner circle.


jadermeani

Isn't it possible to use a road car production engine? It would be more reliable and still cheap. Renault Eurocup used to run Renault engines (I think the same used in Clio and Megane RS models) but I don't know if it's the same for FRECA now. They could even bring a bigger manufacturer sponsorship, but I really don't think FIA have the will to get Bruno out of the game. Going a bit far away with the idea, F3 could run the same engine as F2 with limited horsepower.


Yeahletsbehonest

Good question, short answer no. Long answer: as a comparison we take take a 2021 Ferrari Roma and a Aston Martin Valkyrie (not the best match as its not a turbo but its the best I have). Structure: [Formula engines are part of the cars structure](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/4d/d1/ca4dd1b10a326e83fc899618f375333f.jpg) as shown in this old Lotus. I do not know a lot of road car engines being strong, they would break apart right away. The Ferrari engine weighs 242 kg to produce the same horsepower as the F2 engine, the valkyrie engine has 206 kg with a fair bit more hp (but the closest to a race engine we have on the road), the f2 engine is 132 kg. Just to compare a normal hypercar engine, like the lamborghini one, is around 330kg. The Ferrari engine would crack the moment you put the car on the ground, the Aston Engine would crack under downforce as it needs a slight subframe. Now including radiators, ecus and anythign else, we are at more than 130kg difference to the valkyrie engine, an engine that cosworth build specifically for a racing purpose, that costs more, without attachments, then an entire race ready fia f2 car. So you not only have a piece of shit car now because its super heavy, also the chassis needs more structure and safety as the weight went up, so more weight, more df, more power, more weight, more df, and a total loss of safety and racing, as you cant follow anymore and cars drive like shit. ​ Price: As I said the valkyrie engine, only real race engine available for road cars, is around 4x as expensive as an f2 engine. ​ Other real race car engines: Well the two biggest competitors would be [Gibson with its LMP2 engine](https://www.gibsontech.co.uk/engines/gk428-engine) and [AER with its indy lights engine](https://www.aerltd.com/our-engines/project-63/) but after doing both championships I can tell you: they are not different. The LMP2 engine is heavier and a bit more robust, that's it. The natural aspirated LMP2 engine is cheaper to run than an F2 engine, the turbo charged indy lights engine is similar. ​ Competition: Well this is where things get even worse: the engine spread. Going back to the road car engine, a power spread of 4% is normal. 4% on in f2 would be round about 6-8 tenth of lap time. Now just peak power is one thing, what about power over the entire rpm bandwidth, torque over the full bandwidth, etc etc. It's impossible to take a low quality product and expect a low spread. In F4, where a semi road car engine is being used (and autotecnica is burning tons of money pretesting all these engines before they go out) a spread of 3% is normal and has to be accepted by the teams. looking at Van Ammersford racing they used to have more than 12 engines for 4 cars, always selecting the best one possible for the race, the worst one for testing and then sending it off to rebuild and hope it improves. So this is no option. Engine spread in LMP2 and Indy lights is similar, IL id rather say is slightly smaller, but still, it's a race engine. Addition: I forgot your point with the road car engines. Yes they are based on parts of a road car engine, but maybe up to 60%, that's it. rest needs to be custom made and you get back to the issue with the massive engine spread. Also looking at the freca engine it's more heavy than the current fia f2 engine, and way worse to work on for the mechanic. ​ Options for the future: You want less issues? Use standard v8 or v10 engine, smth that has minimal torsional vibration and therefore little vibration overall, natural aspirated. going to v6 engines bringes a large issue with vibration, just do a little research about that regarding the class 1 dtm times with turbo engines, they had such issues the chassis would delaminate. Quality, as I said, would only improve if you had an open competition, but that, for sure, wouldn't be a single cent cheaper, rather more expensive


jadermeani

Your posts are always very insightful, thanks for your time and patience to explain all those little things into details.


Yeahletsbehonest

Always welcome. Yeah sorry for the length of it. Keeping it short isn't a strength of mine.


admiral_sinkenkwiken

There’s quite a number of “off the shelf” stressed block engines out there that would deliver the same if not better performance in an F2 car with considerably less cost, though many are NA engines, those currently supplied by Gibson & Judd coming to mind. For the more production type blocks an option can be to either girdle them or cradle mount them to achieve the required rigidity & strength, both are age old methods used in single seater construction (BMW F1 engines in the 80’s were production 3 series blocks and cradle mounted in the cars.)


Yeahletsbehonest

Are you sure? What's the actual cost of F2 if you don't mind me asking? Because I have been involved with HWA, NBE, AER and Gibson to find a product to run test cars for FIA F2. I can tell you first hand that Gibson (LMP2, LMP1 and the old renault 3.5 engine) as well as any of the Judd DB V8 engines are at a very similar price, without Bruno taking a share, per km. Intreging to know, HMU with numbers please. Regardless, the engines we received were all new or freshly rebuild and the spread in performance was beyond stupid. Also obv there is no engine support. If you do end up with an issue then it's your problem while AER (for the IL engine) and Mecachrome (F3 F2) actually do a decent support.


InfinityGCX

Is there any particular reason why the old Zytek/Gibson WSR/A1GP engines wouldn't work? They're fairly similar in mass although they have less power. Is it just a case of no more factory support for these type of engines?


Yeahletsbehonest

They are not being produced anymore, no option to run 20 year old engines tho. And to ask them to build 30 new engines for f2 and 55 new gines for f3, plus maintaining them, they need to employ 15ppl including on track support and its impossible to find ppl right now


InfinityGCX

Yeah, that's a pretty good point. Thanks!


gregdrou

Never


racingfanboy160

The new car for 2024 better not be a terrorism...


wnotyard

If anything, search Wikipedia for Supertec


oorjit07

Since FR3.5 is dead, never, and don't expect them to get better either. You're going to have your shit engine and you're going to like it.


racingfanboy160

Yeah with FR 3.5 dead, options are very limited...


alextakacs

Actually they are somewhat more reliable than a few years ago, when they had masive issues with the electronics. I don't see any reason Michel would seek for a replacement. He is making bank with them and can have a huge influence on the championship. All in all just perfect.


racingfanboy160

>Actually they are somewhat more reliable than a few years ago, when they had masive issues with the electronics. They've been unreliable since they first started supplying the series though...


Darkray1002

Disappointed that no team ever raised their voice about this.


Yeahletsbehonest

Might want to read the regulations. By contract drivers and teams are not allowed to voice any criticism publicly.


racingfanboy160

Now it makes sense why Marino Sato had to delete that tweet...


edfitz83

Other alternatives probably cost too much. The realistic options are Gibson’s LMP2 motor and a detuned version of the Indycar Honda or Chevy.


Alternative-Pie4914

Very bad if championship decided by engine failures, these drivers paid for this and has the future depends on them


racingfanboy160

Man...makes it sadder series like FR 3.5 not existing anymore :_(


Shaivite

Does renault still design these engines and mecachrome builds it?


racingfanboy160

I don't know honestly.