T O P
Chramir

Cool, but I am more interested in the rail system at 0:53.


Jakooboo

[That's the Bugatti factory, the rails in the floor allow them to slide parts together while preventing workers from tripping over it.](https://jalopnik.com/even-the-factory-floor-parted-for-the-miraculous-mergin-1843481157/amp) Why not make it extra fancy while they're at it?


Dabnician

I said to my self, that floor defiantly makes whatever they are making way more expensive. edit: yes i saw the miss spelling but doesnt matter: it deson’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod aepapr, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pcale. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit pobelrm. 😉


BrunoNFL

Well, it's not like their cars were cheap to begin with... haha


Sliding_Tiles

I hate when floors give attitude


[deleted]

Defiant of what? Or were you looking for the word "definitely"?


tytytytytytyty7

Defiant of expectations/norms that floors be under designed or utilitarian.


kevin9er

Nailed it.


FoxyGrandpas

You're really gonna correct spelling in an engineering subreddit? Our whole shtick is being great with math and terrible at spelling lol


[deleted]

This is not a spelling error. It is the completely wrong word spelled correctly.


ChocoMogMateria

It’s clearly an autocorrect error. No one else had a problem comprehending what they wrote.


PlanelyDanegerous

We can clearly see that taking a joke isn't your guys thing.


Dabnician

auto correct and being lazy when i use my phone to reply


KarlJay001

Makes you wonder just how much more could have gone into the car or how much cheaper it could have been, or even how much net profit was pissed away when a simple roller setup could have done the job.


darkwingduck97

Wish we had that shit at the dealerships I’ve worked at. Trying to line up the dowels on a tranny while avoiding the legs of the tranny Jack as it’s spewing hydraulic fluid all over the ground is not a fun time.


edunuke

the car was cool and all but what really cought my attention was that rail system; really futuristic.


_regionrat

Contains explosions? Get's really hot? Spins really fast? *yawn* Conveyor with an aesthetic cover? E N G I N E E R I N G P O R N


MrSnowden

100%. Another ICE engine? Yawn. That rail system and factory? Sex!


catcommentthrowaway

Even in the realm of ICE, W16 engines are bad-fucking-ass


ThunderClap448

The amount of power and torque they can produce is honestly kinda mad. If they went all tuner on them, and actually pushed the engine to its limits, it would probably push out a ton more power, but they don't need to - and it makes it more "vulgar" so to speak


2jul

Does someone know the name of it? I'd like to see more. This would go streight to r/oddlysatisfying


jarmesco

Haha ok cool glad I wasn’t the only one


gregbo24

That floor though!


highpl4insdrftr

That's some Tony Stark shit there


Areola_Granola

Came here to comment on that self sealing floor! Looks like it could remove a toe painlessly.


8spd

Might want to wear shoes on the factory floor.


Idunnosquat

That is a lot of spark plugs. Insane but mesmerizing.


Gopher--Chucks

Definitely a lot of spark plugs. 16 spark plugs for this W16 engine right? Hemi engines have two spark plugs per cylinder so your V8 Hemi's also have 16 spark plugs. Still a lot of spark plugs and I don't want to know the cost per plug on this beast of an engine here.


poopoo_canoe

If you could afford to own, drive, and maintain this car, the cost of the plugs would be the least of your worries.


PM_me_ur_deepthroat

Plug cost will be nothing compared to the labour costs. Plugs look like an engine out kinda job and that probably already 5k in labour.


No_Difference_7498

The tires alone are like 40 grand. I can't remember if it's each or total though.


DanzelTheGreat

42K for a full set


jonnyq23

That was for the Bugatti Veyron, the Chiron which is faster actually costs \~50% at about $20K just for the rubber. The rims for the Veyron are about $60K and about $45K for the Chiron. Quite the value.... /s


DanzelTheGreat

Seeing a lot of conflicting information on the price of the tires, now that I'm googling. this site [https://www.motor1.com/news/180923/bugatti-chiron-tires-cost/](https://www.motor1.com/news/180923/bugatti-chiron-tires-cost/) claims that the "annual service" is 20K, and a new set of tires 30K-42K. But whichever, I agree that is is ***fantastic value*** indeed...


Pvt_Haggard_610

Surely you can run regular tyres if you keep the speed down.


DanzelTheGreat

Eh, you could probably make that work. But when you spend 3 million on a car that does 420 km/h you will not give a damn about the price of the tires


Fillicia

Now do aircraft engine. 2 spark plugs per cylinder @ 200$/spark plugs on a 28 cyl engine like the wasp major. A maintenance nightmare! edit: Just to add, a plane like the boeing c97 had 4 engines, an overhaul is 224 sparkplugs total.


schelmo

The terrible old V12 that I think is still in some Mercedes cars today needs 24 spark plugs


9bikes

> The terrible old V12 Why do you say "terrible"?


fresh_like_Oprah

he might have had a misfire...and a $2000 coil to change


schelmo

It's huge, heavy and not very powerful for what it is. It's also ancient with the original design being from the 70s I think and like I said the thing needs 24 spark plugs. If you had the choice between it and the newer V8s I think you'd be stupid to not go with the V8.


marino1310

It’s German, so it’s unreliable and insanely difficult to work on


O-hmmm

A beast. Tune-ups must cost a fortune but if you're driving a car like that it's not an issue.


NotMikeBrown

The oil changes are $10k.


Whiskey-Weather

As are tires each, right, or was it 5k ea, 20 for the set?


FS60

40, and you have to ship it to France.


Scotsch

What if i live in Norway


kevin9er

Then it’s not as bad as if you live in new zealand


hootorama

Ship the *car* to France? To change them out?


1731799517

I mean it _could_ drive with $200 tires. Just not anywhere near 400+km/h


laxvolley

when it first came out I saw a review that driving the max speed the tires would burn out in something like 14 minutes, but that wasn't a concern because the fuel would be exhausted in 12.


woodc85

Does it have a standard tire size? They look pretty wide. Edit: never mind, just looked it up. 285/30R20, so plenty of tire choices starting at $225 ea. in that size. Just not rated for the speed. Edit 2: so that’s just the front. Rears are 355/25R21. Those start at $986.


olderaccount

I saw a documentary about the engineering of this engine. The head engineer said it is basically a big and complex air pump. Their hardest problem to solve was figuring out how the get enough air through the engine to support the necessary combustion.


IBrokeTheAirplane

Do you have a link to the documentary? Would love to give it a watch.


[deleted]

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FoodWholesale

Crazy thanks for sharing the link!


Apexmisser

Seconded


southpaw347

Same


Temujin_K

Thirded


[deleted]

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olderaccount

The engineer in the video makes that point too. But with this engine, they started reaching limits of how much air they can pump, making it the limiting factor on how much power it can produce. You can only move air so fast.


CrazyIvanIII

That is pretty much the main limiting factor on power production of any ICE engine ever. There are just many variables that restrict air flow. From intake to exhaust, cam shaft design/quantity, valve size and number, cylinder head shape, port size, angle, even surface finish. It all plays a part in airflow and flow characteristics. The other limiting factors are really just is it tuned properly (fuel and spark) and is it strong enough to survive as required?


michaelc4

Just do what some rockets do and carry your own oxidizer. Problem solved.


CrazyIvanIII

Well that's kind of what top fuel does using nitromethane, running so rich it's just shy of hydro locking. Makes power though!


kevin9er

It’s also the limiting factor of an athlete. A normal adult man can process 40 mL of O2 / kg body weight / minute of running or cycling. An Olympic athlete can do 75. A racehorse 125. A Husky sled dog 250. I tried to find some data for normal 4-stroke 1.5L engines and see numbers that work out to animal equivalent VO2MAX of 450,000. So the Bugatti might be a few million.


isochromanone

Let's not forget, that engine was designed and built by Volkswagen. http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_248.pdf


Utahmule

They make a bolt on kit that allows you drop it into a 2006-2013 golf! No, I made that up.


iluvulongtim3

In 2007 VW actually did put a W12 in a golf... Not the W16, but still pretty nuts. [top gear segment](https://youtu.be/YSLy5rJSiiE)


kevin9er

Oh gods he looks so young


Utahmule

Lol that's what I was poking fun of. It's so crazy they did that.


captain_ender

OMG I miss old top gear so much.


olderaccount

It was born as two VW VR8 engines mated together in a W configuration. They then redesigned the block so they could offset the cylinders making the entire package smaller and lighter. The final product is still a VW engine produced in Wolfsburg.


jlt99

* the engine is produced in Salzgitter, roughly 40-50km away from Wolfsburg


MowMdown

Bugatti is owned by VAG, as is Porsche, Lamborghini, and Audi, et. al.


ArrivesLate

My first thought was that that air plenum was too small, but then I realized that it was pressured at that point so maybe not.


olderaccount

It has 4 turbos. But at some point the turbos start consuming more power then they are able to generate via added compression.


cory89123

Turbochargers are powered via the exhaust and so they cannot consume any energy that isn't wasted by the engine ahead of time. Excess exhaust gases are dumped via the wastegate. Superchargers being belt driven. Do run into the issue that you mentioned though.


linseed-reggae

Turbochargers can sap power by backing up the exhaust. There's no such thing as free power.


olderaccount

A well designed turbo system only uses waste power. But if you are trying to get more compression out of your turbos, then you need more pressure on the exhaust side, which causes backpressure in the cylinder and robs the engine of power. You can only go so far with turbos even if your block and headers can handle more boost. The designers of this engine ran up against that limit.


chubbyzook

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt3951426/


JCDU

I've seen one of these in a museum, and I've seen a 1500hp Cosworth V6 from an F1 car - the F1 engine is about the size of that Bugatti's gearbox. The difference is the F1 engine only made 1500hp for about a lap and a half before exploding. Incredible engineering in both of them.


aliniazi

IIRC the Bugatti engine is made to handle 3000hp for better reliability at 1500. It's absolutely bonkers, the price tag reflects that too.


JCDU

Well yeah, if you're going to sell a car with a warranty and expect 50-100k out of it before it fucks up you've got to over-engineer it a fair bit compared to race engines that are rated for hours of operation.


extendedwarranty_bot

JCDU, I have been trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty


JCDU

If you saw what I do with my cars there's no way you'd be extending me a warranty


MowMdown

>and expect 50-100k out of it before it fucks up I bet they do not have a maintenance schedule for even that far out. Nobody putting thousands of miles on a bugatti let alone 10's of thousands


JCDU

Most won't, but there's always folks like Rowan Atkinson who dailyed his McLaren F1 for years.


kevin9er

The man topped Top Gear’s lap board. He knows how to handle a car. Likely had a supple grip that extended the lifetime.


redfacedquark

Didn't he write that F1 off?


at0m10

This is the problem with tuning, when you take a block designed for 300hp and make it pump out 1000hp you end up with increased reliability issues no matter what you do. When you design something this ridiculous and make it able to withstand 3000hp, and I forgot the point I was going to make, its just an insane car.


MowMdown

Well yeah, you don't engineer something to run at 100% of is designed capabilities. Imagine if when driving your car at highway speeds it was in constant redline at 60MPH, your engine would die.


Brave_Promise_6980

“The price tag reflects that too” - I don’t think so, as on each car there something like a 6m (usd) loss the high price paid does cover anywhere near the investment in r&d. And yes it’s a lot of money.


bidet_enthusiast

What’s their business model?


melanthius

Yeah once you concede to your engine being a wear-out part that has its lifetime measured in hours instead of years, you can achieve some pretty insane power levels


JCDU

This blew me away: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/8k5fi6/met\_tony\_schumacher\_today\_what\_a\_great\_way\_to/dz53666/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/8k5fi6/met_tony_schumacher_today_what_a_great_way_to/dz53666/) **Including the burnout, the engine must only survive 900 revolutions under load.** That's 900 turns of the crank from birth to death.


kevin9er

Badass. Now think about the engineering, fuel and air mechanics, and G-forces of the Saturn V. Humanity has built some incredible engines.


KakkaKarrot

There is something genuinely human about the complexity and efficiency we've been able to achieve with burning material to achieve thrust


bassface99

Thanks insane thanks


thefactorygrows

F1 engines are designed to hit RPMs of 20,000 (I think they are limited to lower than that though). Meanwhile the Chirons engine is more of a normal car speed, something like 6 or 7000 RPM. But yes, incredible engineering!


t-to4st

Insanely high rpms with way shorter connecting rods and a lot less torque, I believe


MentalMiilk

Correct. F1 engines (generally) have absurdly short strokes so they can rev higher and make more power for less displacement. They also idle much higher since at a normal idle speed of say, 1000rpm, then engine doesn't have enough rotating mass to not stall.


fyusupov

1.6L vs 8.0L lol


snakesign

That thing ran at like 60 psi of boost.


waldocalrissian

The firing order on that thing must be like reciting pi.


Kappa_Emoticon

[ 1-14-9-4-7-12-15-6-13-8-3-16-11-2-5-10](https://youtu.be/nkwMsqEQZrs)


PineapplAssasin

I can’t stop watching that


wicklowdave

holy shit


big_duo3674

That thing just casually went to 10k RPM??


PrcrsturbationNation

So sick. Thanks for posting.


ImAHardWorkingLoser

Mesmerizing


NotAnNSASpySatellite

Can we just talk about that floor being pushed away as they moved the engine n all into place.


highpl4insdrftr

Iron Man vibes


eryuu

The naked shot would make a dope ass doom buggy


notorious_TUG

For some reason, I thought the "W" meant 2 crankshafts or in more crude terms, basically a V-8 bolted side by side to another V-8. Neat to be shown otherwise.


Kulladar

It's two Volkswagen VR6 engines scaled up to be V8 and fused together technically but it's so far past that initial design now that it is its own thing.


isochromanone

An interesting read for those wanting to know more: http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_248.pdf


NoSpotofGround

I've learned so much from that one PDF just now... Thank you for linking it!


isochromanone

Those SSPs are great reads. The one on DSG (dual-clutch semi-auto transmissions) is great for understanding how those work, for example.


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olderaccount

In a sense, it is still 2 VW narrow-angle VR8 engines mated side by side (this is how the project was born). But to make the entire package smaller, they offset the cylinders and nestled them into each other.


Pansarmalex

The offset cylinders is what makes an engine VR.


CzarQasm

When I first heard of the W-16 engine I thought the same thing. Seeing it now, I’d call it a V-VR16.


snowmunkey

Yeah, a better term would be Double V, but that doesn't roll off the tongue as much


Slappathebassmon

I mean, in english, 'Double U' isn't much easier to say imho.


_GiveQuicheAChance

In French at least "Double V" is the literal translation of W. Dunno about German


Aerick

We just call the V 'fau' and the W 'wae'


snowmunkey

Probably has more than 14 letters and 5 syllables


DisparateDan

I have the Bugatti Chiron Lego model - it's amazing how much of that seemed familiar!


SimPHunter64

Bugatti and Koenigsegg are the 2 super cars that are just head and shoulders above every other super car. The engineering on both car brands is crazy high level.


No_Difference_7498

Despite being one trick ponies(or two trick if you consider the engineering), it is impressive how fast they can go.


kid50cal

The Chiron is actually rather spry for a massive heavy car. they might not be the best around a small tight circuit but still respectable.


EvilGummyBear26

The thing is built to be a yacht powered by a jet engine. What you get when you max out luxury and power. I don't think anybody in Bugatti cares that their cars can't do a sub 7 nurb lap


Balls_DeepinReality

Didn’t McClaren have their foot in the door a decade ago with the hybrids? https://youtu.be/OL_eIZjiLUk He mentions Bugatti, “4wd and weighs as much as most mountains”, lol…


DaBi5cu1t

iirc the W16 was a natural evolution of VWs W12 in the nardo concept from the late 90s. Don't think it ever saw production but there were a few working concepts.


snowmunkey

They used the w12 in Bentleys now. Basically two VR6s joined at the crank. The w16 was two VR8s


DaBi5cu1t

It's funny how such colossal (for the time) engines are now the norm in some cars.


getawombatupya

Now just do the opposite to bring it back to "Service position"


RealPropRandy

This is straight up NSFW.


Matzep71

I assure you that floor is very safe for the work environment


Igris-

the implication was anyone with a passion for machines creamed their pants watching this


RealPropRandy

That’s not what I was referring to lol


Wootz_CPH

We don't care


Temporary_Nobody

3 million bucks and it can be yours.


Ghstfce

Costs $100 in gas to rev the engine a couple times though.


DMyourSSN

Damn, I only have $3,000,050. Guess I’ll have to pass.


ser_-

I am convinced Bugatti Chiron is irl batmobile


dpeinball

this is probably the best video I have ever seen


imro

Why is the exhaust sound not more uniform? 16 pistons firing at 1000 RPM is 16KHz, even at 500 it is 8KHz, how is it that there is clear perceivable rumble? Do they fire in groups of 4 at the same time? Clearly I don’t know much about engine sounds, but I was under the impression that the more pistons and engine had the smoother the sound was.


saturnv11

I don't know the details, hopefully someone more knowledgeable will respond. What I do know is that with that many cylinders, you must be firing multiple at the same time. In a standard V8, the crank throws are usually 180 or 90 degrees from one another, so you can't stagger the firings evenly. Additionally, a particular exhaust valve only opens once every 2 rotations of the crank. So your frequency at 1000 rpm would be 133 Hz. (1000 rpm / 60 = 16.66 rps. 16.66 * 8 cylinders firing per rotation= 133 Hz). [Here's a video on the subject ](https://youtu.be/DXfw-sIQUws) skip to 2 minutes for the math.


imro

Thanks. Biggest faux pas was not adjusting from rpM to rpS. That alone slashes everything I said by 60. Add to it every second stroke and badabim badaboom - much lower frequency. I am just a bit surprised that the cylinders fire in groups. I swear saw a four cylinder engine having the firing staggered at least by a little, but I guess that pairs of them are close enough as to be indistinguishable or considered one sound.


WonkyTelescope

[Bugatti W16 Firing order AudioVisual demonstration](https://youtu.be/nkwMsqEQZrs)


daarthvaader

Mesmerizing , but a pass for me with the current gas prices


lyleito

Someone somewhere is going to put this in a Miata


Idunnosquat

That I would like to see.


Tantaroba-the-fat

No no, someone is gonna put a miata around this


woodstonk

"Okay so this design is great, but I get really bored when I think about how the floor underneath it is just going to be, ya know... flat. *ugh*"


Distinct_Collection1

So they basically parked a car really close to an engine?


Thelidtmaker

Perfection


zurkog

>At max power, its turbochargers suck in the same amount of air in one minute that the driver would use to breathe for four days. >At top speed (404 kph / 253 mph) the Veyron gets 3 miles to the gallon. At that rate, its 26 gallon fuel tank runs dry in 12 minutes. https://youtu.be/Cax9zPyjjpM?t=2452


UpgradedSiera6666

This is not the Veyron but the chiron and not an ordinary one this is the chiron super sport


ric2b

But hey, you can do those 50 miles in just 12 minutes. Just need to find a 55 mile long straight road with a perfect surface.


user_account_deleted

The Chiron is a ridiculous vehicle, and that's coming from a hypercar fanboi.


IndiHero

Straight up downloaded a YouTube video and uploaded it to Reddit the day after it went up.


PineapplAssasin

And I appreciate their effort. I hate going on YouTube.


Zealousideal-Watch

If this was an American engine it would produce around 304bhp.


One_2_Three

Unpopular opinion, but an electric motor can make more HP and has one moving part.


crosstherubicon

That's my thoughts too. There is a point after which the engineering just becomes engineering for engineering's sake and the law of diminishing returns steps in. It's analogous to the manufacturing complexity of the massive 1950's radial engines compared to an equivalent jet engine.


enp2s0

Sure, but it lacks some of the other desirable qualities that this engine has, like the awesome sound, no need for heavy batteries, a proper transmission which while technically less efficient is way more fun to drive, etc. Also there is an element of "because we can" here, basically engineers being given a blank check to make something as absurd as possible. Hell, look at those floors. Completely unnecessary but still epic.


Keith_Faith

Is it 8 L per cylinder?


Matzep71

Nah 8L total, each cylinder displaces around 500cc


typoeman

Me: "man that would be sick to drive" Also me: *gets nervous doing 80 in my hyundai elantra*


unkemptmint

Having that much mass behind you in the event of a crash seems like certain death.


chevyfried

That engine weighs 490kg....insane. And the transmission weighs 124kg. Whole car weighs under 2000kg making the engine and tranny almost 1/3 of the entire mass of the car.


yxXdanielXxy

It is certainly not the most desirable but those monocoques are extraordinarily rigid.


PsychologicalSnow476

If the car hit a wall at maximum velocity, the combined engine and transmission forces alone over 1 second of impact would be: Average Impact Force 5.699 MN Peak Impact Force 11.398 MN This would be coming at the cockpit. That's a lot of force to absorb.


aliniazi

Mate if the car hit anything at max velocity I think the engine is the least of your concerns.


PsychologicalSnow476

Fair enough, I still wanted to see what the numbers were. It would be an amazing (and very expensive) explosion to behold.


BigBallerBrad

Yah maybe don’t hit a mountain at max speed


SpicyMintCake

Hitting anything at max velocity would be fatal even if the car was surrounded by airbags and the engine weighed as much as a feather lol


j-random

I'm sure the crash energy management has been designed to deflect the engine down and under the cockpit cell.


Quickzor

Its cool and all but this is stone age tech compared to what Koenigsegg is cooking up with free valve and that awesome three piston engine.


KakkaKarrot

I think most engineers here would appreciate the work and craftsmanship in addition to the status of the technology To me, the idea that a non-race car can output 1500hp from a quad-turbo, W-16 engine while still being a reliable passenger vehicle, blows my mind


Quickzor

I find it amazing that it only produces 1500 horsepower, there are C7 corvettes with V8 dual turbo setups that put out close to 1500 horse and are reliable daily drivers. And Dodge Vipers that are putting out 2000+ horsepower from a V10 dual turbo that are daily driven too.


BasedOnWhat7

>daily driven By people who are happy to tinker with their cars and fix the frequent issues. A Bugatti is for someone whose time is worth more to them than a few million. Also the build quality (particularly interiors) are just not the same on American cars.


Quickzor

If you have the work done by shop that knows what they are doing you can put tens of thousands of miles without needing to do more than regular oil changes and maintenance.


KakkaKarrot

According to Bugatti it's fairly capable of 3000. They kept it at 1500 to maintain reliability The part you usually don't see are those Corvette/Viper drivers spending personal time to fix the car


Matzep71

Don't fix what isn't broken I guess


mschomm

Wow, such absolutely unnecessary complexity. Exactly the right thing for people who still like to buy mechanical watches too.


Morph83DK

Old technology, running on Dino-juice, pretty car though


Twelvey

The starter is INSIDE of the bell housing. This is not engineering porn. It's engineering bullshit.


redditisnthatgreat

As if anyone who owns one of these will put enough miles on it to fail.


good_morning_magpie

I noticed that too. Some new Porsche models are doing the same. It’s bullshit.


boner79

Incredible. Just depressing all this engineering is rendered moot by a simple DC motor in an EV.


Boggie135

What?


boner79

I'm just lamenting that the engineering that goes into these performance combustion engines are a work of art, yet they're being replaced by boring DC motors in EVs. For example, Tesla Plaid with DC motors is toasting all these hypercars with their sophisticated combustion engines. Ferrari, Lambo and Corvette all moving to EVs soon.


dishwashersafe

EVs are a whole other ball game for sure, but that doesn't mean there's not a lot of interesting engineering that goes into it! The simplicity is great (from an engineering perspective at least). Also the newness of EVs means the industry hasn't settled on standard optimized designs yet. Seeing the different approaches of different companies in this early stage is exciting! I've enjoyed watching Munro Live recently that dives into a lot of the engineering nuances.


KakkaKarrot

I want to preface by fully acknowledging EVs are the way to go both for performance/logistic/cost/ecological purposes, but the engineering that goes into electric motors is kinda boring compared to ICE I think its simply a symptom of having so few moving parts. Electrical/software engineering is never going to appeal to human senses in the same way as truly mechanical engineering


dishwashersafe

It's a good point. I mean I am a mechanical engineer for that reason, but doing my job well usually means finding ways to minimize moving parts, and I've come to appreciate the appeal of simplicity too. I bet ICE cars will end up being like mechanical watches today: luxury items appreciated for their craftmanship but functionally obsolete.


Trnostep

Who's doing the toasting depends on the track. EVs have an advantage in acceleration but lose in top speed. A lap of Ehra-Lessien would start with a big lead by the Plaid but it would get overtaken by a lot by a Chiron


PickleJarss

This is why EVs can never be a worthy successor, and this is the hill I will die on.