T O P
ImpossibleTax

I just don’t believe they ever would consider a woman to hold some sort of leadership position in their cult. Or believe that a woman could be a spiritual advisor.


iwantbutter

Nothing like being backed into a corner by your own misogyny.


Pigeon_of_Tesla

This is what I am enjoyjng a lot.


TexasChick2021

YES!! Wimmin folk can’t be pastors/clergy


LadyChatterteeth

You know what's funny? My great-grandparents were married by a woman minister in their Christian denomination (which is a pretty fundamentalist-type church) back in the 1930s! It's just crazy to me that, nearly a century ago, they were more progressive than the Duggars are today.


corking118

oh but he's not a male chauvinist, he thinks his wife is way more wise than he is! /s


ThatCrayKnitterly

At least Michelle has a husband.


PigfartsOnMars

Yeah, well, at least I have a brain.


nuggetsofchicken

Right, if it's a subjective standard I'm not sure you could show that JB or Pest or any male in the cult could ever see themselves going to a woman as a religious authority.


miss4n6

Yeah that is hilarious JB said he couldn’t remember if she was an elder. Well, no females are ever elders as far as you’re considered so…are you saying they can be?


SChasBetterPeaches

“I can’t remember if she’s an elder or not but you better not use any of the conversations with her because she may or may not have been an elder, whichever one benefits my son!!!!11!1!”


sarahcc88

Women only hold clergy positions when it is convenient. As we all know women are only good for reproducing and making tater tot casserole. I really despise the duggars and what they believe in. How backwards of them.


Ask_me_4_a_story

They don't even want women to go to College, why the fuck would they want them to be clergy?


PeloHiker

It’s in direct opposition to their headship beliefs. Hypocrisy when it suits them.


helpanoverthinker

Women often hold leadership roles for other women and children. Just not for adult men.


MaIngallsisaracist

I had a college roommate who was raised fundie light and a woman couldn't teach a Sunday school class if there was any baptized male in it, regardless of age. Blew my mind.


Crazyzofo

"leadership" positions meaning running the Ladies' Group and organizing the potlucks.


treeofhands

"Holt at the hearing yesterday stated that Pest had told her that he had “been touching the breasts and vaginal areas of Jane Does 1 through 3, both over and under their clothes, for years.” >FOR YEARS???? I thought it was once or twice. Was this already known? I'm gonna be sick.


cheeseduck11

It was multiple times over a year and a half talked about in the police report. (I assume much was left out of the police report but we did know it was 7+ times already). He confessed three separate times to his parents and they kept letting him loose on the girls. They literally gave 0 fucks about their daughters. :(


The_Bravinator

This is the part that horrified me most. I knew it was a long term thing, but I always thought it only came out once at the very end and then stopped after. I didn't realize it kept happening *after they knew.*


scienceislice

For a cult that is obsessed with women and girl's purity, they didn't seem to care much about that of their daughters - seriously, I don't get why they didn't stop him the first time they found out, if only for misogynistic reasons!


plz2meatyu

>obsessed with women and girl's purity It doesnt count if its daddy/family/clergy and the girl keeps her mouth shut.


1-cupcake-at-a-time

Like letting a rabid dog roam free. So awful.


iwantbutter

The amount of downplaying they did when all this came out is unreal. I want to go hold my own daughter so tightly right now. I cannot fathom allowing my son to do that to my daughter for YEARS and downplay it into oblivion.


Phoenyxoldgoat

People argue that he is defending Josh at the expense of his daughters, and while that is certainly true, he failed Josh, too. Josh was 12 when this started. 12! He needed intensive treatment, counseling, meds, etc. There is an intensive treatment program specifically for adolescent boys who sexually offend [in Fayetteville!](https://www.pineyridge.net) TL/DR: Jim Bob didn’t just minimize his daughters’ victimization to protect his son, he minimized his son’s illness and behavior AND his daughter’s victimization TO PROTECT HIMSELF. He failed both Josh and his victims. Fuck Josh Duggar, but man! Fucking FUCK JIM BOB!


Rare-Gold-208

Agreed. They failed their daughters most, but they also failed Josh. Who knows what might have happened if they had IMMEDIATELY, when they found out about the FIRST incident, taken him to treatment? Spared their daughters AND tried to take care of Josh? I don't know if it would have helped or if he was always going to be like this no matter what they did or didn't do, but they could have done that to at least tried to have helped him.


LurkieMcLurkerson

I didn’t know this either, and I thought (assumed?) that the abuse while sitting on his lap was touching, not penetration. And Jim Bob claims to have _forgotten_ this information


pickingusernamesblow

The disservice this family has done to their daughters. Boob and Meech should be in jail too. The abuse they let these girls go through time and time again is criminal


angelkibby

This and how they were able to adopt a child after all that just makes me so mad.


AshDuke

Yes, it was know he did multiple times, but it’s the first time that they said when started, he was 12. One of his victims woke up to him molesting her and she hit him and told her parents.


Freckleminger

I seem to remember that following the molestation, the victim told her parents and Pest referred to her 'snitching' on him.


MrsSpecs

And I seem to remember, in the recesses of my mind, Pest saying something about Jill being a snitch. Was she the first? And now she is testifying. My heart hurts.


Phoenyxoldgoat

He called her a tattle tale at her own wedding reception. Nauseating.


MrsSpecs

Fuck that nasty shit-swallowing worm.


RedStateBlueHome

In the M Kelly interview, didn't JB say the girls never woke up/didn't know?


greyhoundjade

Just rewatched. Jill stated that she was completely unaware of the whole thing, slept through it. Jessa gave a carefully worded answer where she didn't deny being awake, not exactly, it was more of a "didn't realize what was happening" answer.


omg_pwnies

No way that was coached ahead of time. Uh huh, no way! /s


antibacterialsope

He absolutely said "they didn't even know he had done it"


blackkatya

I read that as the R. Kelly interview for a second and couldn't believe those paths of perversion had crossed.


OutdoorApplause

If he was 12 then Jill, Jessa and Jinger were around 9, 8 and 7.


allabouteevee

That was Jessa I bet.


ActualMerCat

The People magazine article on this said it started when Josh was 12.


3MorgendorferSister

I think we all suspected that the abuse had been worse than they admitted, but I would have guessed months, not years. And those girls were coerced into going on tv and saying it was just a few times.


sleepysloth44

I thought the same, just a few times vs years. Fuck Sexpest. That sick fuck should just go rot in prison until he go rot in hell.


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Fuzzybluepillow

12 is old enough for serious consequences, but young enough I really really think he could have been helped, if only the adults in his life had their shit together!


cultallergy

Now for the big question, why have the M's not been interviewed by trained specialist? Why are the arrested scum bag and his enabler not wanting the children interviewed?


dixiequick

I would imagine they have, but being minors, that information isn’t for the general public.


cultallergy

Years? I believe that JB indicated it was over the clothing and just once. Don't tell me JB lied on the Kelly interview. Oh, for the shame.


Cool-Dingo-7303

And the fact that those parents made the two older girls go on TV and claim it was “over the clothes” making it sound like it was nothing? My disgust with these parents is off the charts. Monsters!


vastation666

Rich that they are trying to use a conversation with a woman as clergy privilege when any other time the fundies would scream like banshees. Hypocrites to the very core when it comes to protecting the golden boy.


blackkatya

I wanna hear the Transformed Wife's feelings on that one. 🤣


Carovilli

Lori would feel the need to protect Pest at all costs, so she’d insist that Bobye was considered a clergy member. Then she would use it as a prime example for why women should not be clergy, because they have no ability to keep matters private.


LavernicaDeLuca

I had to keep myself from downvoting you out of anger because that is 100% what Lori would do and it enrages me.


Carovilli

Lol I almost didn’t post it because I didn’t want to piss people off more in these rage-inducing times.


Direct_Bag_9315

Thanks, I hate it. Mostly because that is *absolutely* what she would do.


jeanskirtflirt

This tracks.


CourtneyAnn99

She is the scariest human being alive. I’d rather be with Pest in a dark ally than that monster.


cheddarandchutney

I’d like to think I could take her down but she looks like she’s made from jerky and has the backing of a 1000 demons. Kick her and Imhotep would step in and rescue her. Or Ken Copeland and his hell minions.


BeeBarnes1

Oh I'd looove to meet Pest in a dark alley.


Ask_me_4_a_story

As someone who has met him in person, no you wouldn't. He is SUCH an asshole


heyodi

OMG THIS!!!! Where are Lori’s horrible opinions when you need them?


cripplinganxietylmao

Hoping against all hope that the Bobeye testimony is included.


nuggetsofchicken

You know how people call the pandemic shit like "panini"? Can we do that with the ever elusive spelling of Mrs. Holt's name? Hoping against all hope that the Popeye testimony is included.


blackkatya

I just keep reading it in my head as rhyming with Kanye.


Imfearless13

I keep reading it at Bob-je


marlenshka

same, and since I am rooting for her it's an excited Bob-yay! in my head


Sea_Kaleidoscope8663

I've decided it's Bob-yuh Like George "Dub-yuh" Bush


astgho

I read this as calling her Bobini and not Popeye lmao


MirensGhost

Bobyeye testimony — here for it


OhSweetieNo

I keep thinking of walleye


helloreddit321567

Finally what happened to Joy is addressed as being a rape. I don't like that it was downplayed for the sake of confusing people about how bad Pest is


Tradition96

The description of the abuse is very disturbing but I also think it’s good that they spell it out like that. No ”mild touching above clothes”.


helloreddit321567

Agreed. I have been saying the word "rape" on this sub for years and each and every time (before the arrest) there was someone trying to argue it was just molestation over the clothes. Boob lied on tv and it is still what is remembered. That fucking pisses me off!


ilovetotour

I think a lot of people didn’t know this info. Or they didn’t want to believe it. Either way, fuck Pest.


pickingusernamesblow

As a survivor of CSA, I haven't ever looked into the details of what Pest did, and this is the first time I'm learning about this. I'm sick to my stomach knowing what that child went through. I had no idea the scope of what he did and for how long he did it. I'm absolutely appaled.


helloreddit321567

You are not alone ❤️ What he did to Joy is the reason why I don't believe he has stopped his activities through the years


sMarieLoves

I’ve definitely snarked on joy in the past but I dont think I ever will be able to again after reading that. She’s only a few months younger than me- only 5 years old at the time. Absolutely horrifying. They downplayed it so much.


Playmakeup

I have a 5 year old daughter and I'm literally in tears thinking about someone hurting her like that. Whether Josh was my kid or not, I would have violently harmed him


allabouteevee

She was practically a baby at that time too. This has to be traumatizing for her to hear about.


warmachinewife

It’s so strange to me that Josh just started confessing one night to this lady. In that culture it’s really not normal for a male/female to have such a personal conversation, let alone just being one on one together. I know she was much older than him and maybe like a mother/teacher/counselor figure but that’s so unusual for fundie culture. ALSO, the courtship didn’t work out with their daughter so they brought him to live in their house?? What in the world. These people won’t allow dating but will essentially allow a potential boyfriend to move in? Mind-boggling.


Remstersade

The stranger thing to me is that after knowing he molested his sisters while they slept in their beds, they moved him into their home with their children. Did they lock their kids doors so he couldn’t get to them?


Elegant-Nature-6220

And that he was still seen as a viable husband for their daughter... yuck.


madbeachrn

Okay, consider this: Pest is a narcissist. This could have been done as a confession, when he was really bragging. Dupe’s delight.


jeanskirtflirt

This is a good point! Josh isn’t dumb in a manipulative way. It’s entirely possible he was manipulating her. It’s entirely possible she showed him the motherly love maybe Michelle wasn’t? So he clung to her and felt safe. It could a combination of those or something else. Whatever it is, you’re right it’s very strange.


windy7146

You’re right - why were they alone???


Specsporter

Maybe because he was getting "mom-like" attention from her that he wasn't getting much of from Meech. Kids that are deprived of that are usually drawn to people who are able to offer it. And since Pest was the oldest, he didn't have a sister-mom to raise him. Those are my thoughts.


[deleted]

Agree with the cry for help. By this point, they had how many kids??? And such little supervision. He would have been old enough to remember when there was only 2/3/4/5 kids and more parental involvement. Weren't they also incredibly poor at this point too? Such an abusive environment.


MalboroUsesBadBreath

I’m wondering (since he was so young at the time) if this was his attempt at a cry for help. Maybe he was reaching out for someone to genuinely help him stop, since his parents weren’t .


SuitFar2340

This was my thought as well.


Fun-Dentist-2231

Jim Holt was probably there but fell asleep. And Justin moved into Claire’s house, no?


nuggetsofchicken

I mean the Duggars did let Ben live in their guest room above the garage for no explainable reason other than he was courting Jessa at the time.


Fuzzybluepillow

Okay but Ben was not a known danger to children.


shrirnpheavennow

Honestly best case scenario is the floor opens up and JB and Pest are sent directly to Hell. First class ticket.


pickoneformepls

Honestly store them with the luggage.


bubblebooo

Stick them with the landing gear


TheUninspiredArtist

Even the luggage doesn’t deserve that.


Yarnprincess614

If they don’t go to hell, I would be quite happy with a trip to [Florence SuperMax ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence) instead.


Better_Physics5750

Wow. I read that article … I didn’t know the UK are currently refusing to extradite Julian Assange because of concerns that he might go to that place and the Brits don’t approve of it. Perfect place for Pest.


alwaysmorecumin

The orchestra pit opens and swallows them whole


mameshibe

JB’s ‘selective recollection’ is really starting to piss me off.


TexasChick2021

Jesus does not approve of lying to cover up the sins of your son. They need to renounce their use of Jesus and God since they are not living the life they claim they are. I hope it all tumbles down


CheekInternational92

I grew up in this. Had friends who knew the Duggars, if we lived in the same area we would have been friends. Trust me, there is No Way Jim Bob Duggar doesn’t know whether Bobbye Holt was or was not an Elder. Women aren’t given that authority or title in this kind of a church structure. He’s lying.


cc817

I didn’t know about the crimes DURING BIBLE STUDY. That makes me physically sick.


Specsporter

And if other people were around too? Very brazen. If alone, diabolical. Atrocious either way.


GirlsesCheetos

Right? Like it got to a point where he wasn’t even trying to hide it, it seems. He’s such a fucking evil son of a bitch.


Scarlet-Molko

How the fuck can the parents not notice that. Lots of kids or not.


Freckleminger

Something that really got me in the People article was this: *"I went to go tell Jim Bob and Michelle but they said they didn't want to hear it," Bobye said, later adding, "People began to be aware. … Something else happened in Little Rock that made Josh leave our home." (She clarified that it was unrelated to inappropriate touching.)* 'They didn't want to hear it.' ​ Full article here: [https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-family-friend-emotional-testimony-court-hearing/](https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-family-friend-emotional-testimony-court-hearing/)


rcg90

“I’m not a male chauvinist.” Jim Bob Duggar everybody. I’m agnostic but… if there is a hell, JB, Michelle, Josh, and every other adult who has known and stayed silent for decades are absolutely going there.


jingledingle03

JB and M had a meeting with Jim and Bobye Holt and Josh in the duggar parents bedroom and Jim Holt fell asleep!! So I'm curious, it's like welcome to our bedroom, make yourself at home, have a sleep if you wish??? That can't be considered a clergy conversation, it's laughable.


Overall_Addendum_950

I didn’t read that bedroom meeting to be at the Duggar’s. Josh later went to live with the holts for awhile and I actually read it to be at the Holts during that later time… Still very weird, to me, that these sort of conversations take place in a bedroom at all.


corking118

It's weird for sure, but in a house with 19+ people in it I guess mom and dad's bedroom is the one place they can be assured of privacy. (yuck)


jingledingle03

I'll have to go back and check if it's specific because for some reason I thought it was at the duggars bedroom but I could be wrong. One would think that no other rooms exist in whichever dwelling they were in at the time that they just had to meet in the bedroom. So strange!


Overall_Addendum_950

There is specific mention of Josh “confessing” to Mrs. Holt at later dates outside of the initial meeting with all of them. But- that comes from both motions on the clergy-privilege issues and the timeline is a little muddled because they are mostly focusing on whether she was a friend/ parent of someone he was courting or acting in the role of a spiritual advisor. So it is a little hard to tell from those motions the timeline, what was said when. Yes others have pointed out to me crowded houses and privacy so bedrooms are used for private conversations… I get it but still find it strange.


nuggetsofchicken

It lowkey kinda just sounds like a sleepover once things hit around 3am and some people start getting tired. Jim says he's just gonna "rest for a bit" and then he'll be up and at em. JB starts pacing around because he doesn't want to answer the truth or dare question he got asked. Michelle is the person who's like "I've never stayed up the whole night before!" and no one gives a shit. And Bobye meanwhile is drafting a complaint the local PD.


jingledingle03

Lol I feel like this isn't gonna be the last of the lighter, surprising, weird info we hear from this case. So far some of the other surprising weird info has been very sad to hear like how the Holt's knew about Josh's problems and invited him to their home to try and re-ignite the courtship with their daughter. I obviously won't snark ok that but that was jaw-dropping.


RobinMoonshadow

Stuck on this too. Shows how far gone the women are. So much speculation in this group about how the women will react once it’s all out in the open, but guys, THEY ALREADY KNOW. They know worse shit than we know by a lot. It’s their godly duty to just accept the monstrous behavior of their men. They’re abused into thinking all men are like this so all women must be putting up with it too. It’s embarrassing, but lean into your faith and hang on to your man and eventually… you’ll still just be suffering anyway like you’re supposed to. Joyfully available doesn’t just mean you’re a glorified fleshlight, it means you quietly indulge his most fucked up fantasies too. I know I’m rambling, but this is supposedly not the worst person of the bunch and she was ready to sign over her own child and potential grandchildren. Not just hand them over, but actively sought out bringing Josh into their home?? “Hoping they would reconcile” sounds like the daughter wanted nothing to do with him OBVIOUSLY CORRECT IN THAT, but Jim and Bobye were pushing for it?? I mean am I interpreting this wrong or something? Horrific everything.


jingledingle03

Yup and it never even crossed any of these adults minds to get Josh professional help at that point while he was a minor. They just wanted him to court and get on with life. Ignore MAJOR issues. And the Holt's were willing to give Josh their daughter to marry. Such a sick, twisted clusterfuck of abuse and overall demented religious beliefs.


bats-go-ding

I'm wondering if JB&M's bedroom is the only place in the house to have a reasonably private conversation.


nuggetsofchicken

You don't even have to worry about newborns overhearing things because they're stored in the older girls' room.


OhSweetieNo

Don’t forget the closet where Jessa and Ben began their courtship!


jeanskirtflirt

Idk why but the way you worded this makes me now curious if Bobeye is the infamous Alice.


Specialist_Ninja7104

That would be spicy


jeanskirtflirt

I went back to read everything she wrote and I think my initial thought was wrong. Bobeye would have had all the same info of Alice but the tone didn’t sound right. Alice also mentions there being no penetration so it couldn’t be Bobeye. I wouldn’t be surprised if Bobeye was the one that called Oprah and I think it’s 100% certain she knows who Alice is. She may not know that person posted anything online but it has to be someone in close connection with Bobeye as well as the Duggars. The mystery continues…


ProvePoetsWrong

All I can hear is Jessa telling Megyn Kelly “I just want to defend him against people who are calling him a pedophile or a rapist. That’s so wrong and a lie really.” I don’t blame her for anything; what she’s been told, commanded to think, and gaslit into believing is not her fault. But dang…all these years later and here we are; he’s clearly a pedophile and according to law, a rapist at least digitally…it just makes me so sick. These girls are going to spend years and years retroactively trying to figure out what the heck happened to them as children. The webs of lies and half truths their parents told them are going to take so long to unravel and make sense of, if you can even make sense of it at all…


marlenshka

Omg, I am so disgusted. Him reading the bible to one of his sisters while raping them 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤢🤢🤢 I can't. How come nobody has come forward until now. Shame on you, Jim Bob and Michelle. May the Lord and the justice system punish you


heyodi

The fact that he felt they should have a platform on TV after this is baffling. And in their shows they constantly compared themselves to “other families” like they were superior for wearing hideous dresses and not watching TV.


goodybadwife

But... but... they walked through a difficult season of life where Josh got his head shaved as punishment and did some physical labor to repent. /s (in case it's needed). Surely that punishment fit the crime. /s


FineIJoinedReddit

If it was a movie, you'd be like "no that's too on the nose." So awful.


marlenshka

yes, i actually started fiction inspired by fundies but i never dared to go this far!! the reality is far more cruel than i had ever imagined


GirlsesCheetos

It’s so fucking disgusting and sad.


Acidradish111

Very interested in the idea of Anna hearing Bobye's testimony regarding ending Pest's relationship with her daughter. How soon after did Pest and Anna's courship/engagement begin? Was she given the same courtesy of knowing about the molestations? I wonder how she felt hearing Bobye testify that this admission was reason for them to end their daughter's relationship with Pest. It seems like the Duggar's reasoning behind including the Holt's in this situation was because of Pest's relationship with their daughter ... very curious how it was then handled with Anna's family.


titsoutfortheplanet

The fact that Jim fell asleep in the middle of a conversation about CSA is WILD to me. Was it too boring for him?? Too common!!


PeloHiker

💯 I cannot comprehend having that conversation and being like, okay y’all I’m tuckered going to take a quick nap.


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titsoutfortheplanet

Sadly, I think we are only just learning the extent of what went down. Seems like there was a lot to talk about. And then many actions that they clearly did not take!!!


blackkatya

I literally fall asleep to episodes of the Maury show streaming at times and I can't imagine being able to sleep through that.


koalapant

Wait, so did Jim Holt fall asleep in a chair or literally tuck into bed while his wife discussed child rape with Pest????


ashley2839

Yup. I think in the bed? Just when I think things cannot get stranger…


Sunflower6876

Also- wouldn't clergy be a mandated reporter? That if they were told something like this... they have a duty to break that privilege and report?!


corking118

Clergy in AR are considered mandated reporters, but are allowed to keep info to themselves IF they received it within the context of a religion-sanctioned confession/ask for guidance. Like a Catholic priest wouldn't have to make a mandated report about something he learned from a parishoner in the confession booth, but he WOULD be required to report something he witnessed with his own eyes or if someone disclosed to him outside of the realm of confession. As a mandated reporter myself (I'm a therapist), it is absolute bullshit that this exception exists. According to RAINN, all but 21 states have this exception on the books.


spaghatta111

What a bullshit law. Mandated reporter should mean **mandated fucking reporter.**


NibblesMcGiblet

Sort of, though Emily D Baker just went over this for the past two hours on youtube and mentioned a fucked up Arkansas law/rule that has fucked up exceptions for this. But anyway, it was demonstrated pretty clearly that Mrs. Holt isn't clergy but rather was jus the mother of the girl Pest was betrothed to, and a longtime family friend, and that women CAN"T be clergy of their church. She she wouldn't be a mandated reporter, and so her testimony SHOULD be allowed.


blackkatya

Sadly, no. In most states they either aren't mandatory reporters or (like in my state) there is a loophole that exempts them from reporting if the knowledge of abuse comes from them serving in a "spiritual capacity".


ca1989

They are actually mandated reports in AR, though. I checked earlier bc I was curious. This is going to take an interesting route, especially for the Holts, bc now it could be played as "well, of they had done their job and reported it, none of this may have happened". Nevermind Boob and Meech and their job as parents...


miss4n6

That’s the issue, these churches are so loose with who they call clergy it’s hard to uphold.


OfJahaerys

I know this isn't a funny situation but I am dying that this guy fell asleep during the conversation. He's an elder ffs. Everything about their "religion" is such a clusterfuck.


MaeClementine

I’m dying that people named Jim, Jim Bob and Bobye were having a three way conversation at all. What in the white trash hell.


mscaptmarv

jimbobye. no, SOTDRT student, it's not a country - that's zimbabwe. /s


CourtneyAnn99

Isn’t it incredibly dangerous to allow a non-clergy member to be held to confidentiality as though they were clergy? She’s not ordained. She didn’t go to school for this. Like, any Joe Schmo can say, “sorry, I can’t testify, I’m the leader of my make believe church and pinky promised I wouldn’t tell”. Seems like a slippery slope.


cave_mandarin

Ding ding ding


[deleted]

Even clergy privilege is stupid. Even therapists are required to report rape and assault to the police


Disastrous_Ad_4149

Extremely dangerous. My ex joined an Independent Baptist church. As part of his joining he was told to admit to his sins before his baptism. He was assigned a regular member of the church as a disciple leader (in this case a 19-year-old kid). One of the things he admitted to involved me and the abusive things he had done to me. When I was finally able to get the courage to leave and wanted to call the police on him over some threats, I was told that this 19-year-old could not be made to testify or give over recordings of my ex's admissions of guilt.


CourtneyAnn99

Oh lord. I am *so* sorry for what you experienced and how utterly fucked up you were treated by our criminal justice system. 19?!? Like he could counsel anyone on anything?!


palecapricorn

I’m probably late but I knew what Josh did to Joy in the abstract, but I didn’t hear what was going on when it was happening. I guess just having the scene set more, it’s fully hit me. It disgusted me before but now I feel physically ill. Joy, being so young, was so trusting and he was a total predator. May he rot in jail and later, Hell.


192Sticks

I just want to say that I’m really proud of myself for knowing that the presence of a 3rd party would have vacated the privilege. I’m going to pretend it’s because I grew up around a lot of lawyers not that I’ve spent a ridiculous amount of time watching Law & Order.


redditoranna

Shit, Josh was assaulting his sister as he was reading the Bible to her. That just about sums up the cult right there.


avt2020

I actually started to tear up after hearing that he raped his sister (suspected to be Joy I know), while reading the Bible to her, of all things. I feel absolutely fucking sick. This testimony better be included, we all know Bobeye was not a higher up member of the church since we all know they would never give a woman any authority.


Playmakeup

I never understood Meech's insistence that the boys couldn't hold the girls on their laps, and I honestly wish I could go back to the time when I was confused


Scarlet-Molko

I’m sure I’m seen people post on here before though, that despite this, there is photo evidence of Josh with other kids on his lap, well after this.


nicole11930

Once again, instead of dealing with the monster in their family, they imposed ridiculous rules on the rest of the kids while continuing to let the monster harm their little girls. Pest and his parents both belong in prison, then hell.


LexiePiexie

Does anyone else call Bobye - BobYEEEEE?


MalboroUsesBadBreath

I hear it like a toddler saying, “Buh-byeee!”


Freakin_Merida88

Praise you, Nuggets of Chicken. You are our official legal eagle.


misoharpy

TIL to be a clergy, you just have to overhear some shit on a phone. I'm not loving how much "happened to have found out" stuff happened. No one intentionally tried to do the right thing (or even just a thing, right or wrong). They were reacting as information managed to get past their shields of willful ignorance.


Kochou1331

I think my favorite bit from this is how Jim Bob, supposedly, can't recall what happened to his girls all those years ago, but he sure as shit recalls that everything he can't recall discussing with Bobye was confidential? His bullshit exhausts me. I hope opposing counsel roasts him.


treeofhands

Thank you u/nuggetsofchicken <3 we appreciate you!


Shbrugg87

First of all, idk why I find it so amusing that Jim Holt fell asleep. What a bizarre mental image. Second of all, somewhere in there it stated that Bobye was a voter at the church. I call absolute bullshit. There's no way in hell a woman was allowed to vote. Women aren't even allowed to sit in on the elder meetings. While it is pretty common for an elders wife to help guide children and women within the church, neither an elder nor his wife could be considered the leaders or pastor. It actually would be pretty common sense if you've grown up in these churches that anything you say to an elder or his wife is certainly not going to be kept confidential. Guarantee they did a phone tree that night to start a prayer chain for Pest and his sin after these conversations. If the judge doesn't allow her testimony I'll be shocked. The duggars are such a fucking circus act. The way they act in court is embarrassing.


buffy1975

Many baptist churches allow any church member to vote. It literally means nothing to be a voting member of a church. It isn’t a special group necessarily at all. That doesn’t make her any more clergy than anybody else who had joined the church congregation. That is grasping at straws for sure Obviously all churches run different and I don’t know about their specific church. I go to a mainstream baptist church but was raised fairly conservative baptist (not like the Duggar church though)


webtin-Mizkir-8quzme

Baptists don’t do “confession” - they call it “admission of sin” because to them, confession implies the person hearing it can grant forgiveness. So I think this could fall under “seeking counsel”. However, women are NOT given roles like that. In fact, as a pre teen / teen male, she couldn’t be his Sunday school teacher. After a certain age, classes are split.


YoBannannaGirl

Did anyone ask Bobye if she was an elder? I’m sure she would remember and answer honestly.


jrodseyeliner87

I HATE HATE HATE josh duggar. He is a disgusting piece of shit and jim bob and meech are no better!


allabouteevee

How can Joy take this? To hear her parents applauding her rapist and minimizing what happened to her? I would be estranged from my parents for the rest of my life if that happened to me.


SuitFar2340

Honestly, I wonder if she’s even watching it or if she’s just fighting to avoid it all.


Trillium8649

I wonder if Joy even knew before now. How terrible for her to go back in her mind and see her parents minimize it again and again.


allabouteevee

I don’t like Joy’s beliefs but I hope she gets the help and support she needs. I hope she gets away from this cult someday.


AnniePasta

So in addition to all the evil, slimy, awfulness I feel like TLC has complicity in this beyond just giving these idiots a platform. There's no way they didn't know about the prior courtship or at least any of this. Just so disgusting.


thereisbeauty7

Sorry, I’m not sure if this has already been addressed, but do we know how the prosecution became aware that Josh had divulged this information to Mrs. Holt all those years ago? Did she come forward to give this testimony, or did someone else who knew about that conversation inform the prosecution about it? This sentence makes me wonder if her daughter tipped them off, but I could be way off base: “Given the conversation was related to the courtship with her daughter, Pest clearly understood the contents might have been relayed to the daughter.”


kitamia

If I recall this was all in the original police report from when Josh was a teen.


HyggeSmalls

This is a family photo of the Duggar’s from 2005, the same year this conversation with the Holt’s supposedly took place. https://imgur.com/a/GFKoUBL It’s so heartbreaking and disheartening to think about the pain and the anguish in this photo that had to be covered up so as to shield a perpetrator and enable him.


[deleted]

All the children were utterly failed by all the adults around them. The parent's selfishness and fuck ups caused this.


monkey_monkey_monkey

The most sickening thing from your summary/notes (thank you BTW!) is Footnote #1: >The defendant’s father also testified at the hearing. While he provided garbled answers about the leadership of his church and repeatedly claimed not to recall whether the defendant admitted to touching the vaginas of Jane Does 1 through 4 despite recalling other very specific details from this timeframe.” Some of these victims are your very young daughters, the fact that you cannot remember is utterly disgusting. Made even more disgusting by the fact that their religion holds father's out to be the guardian of their daughter's purity and the daughters are treated like possession. F$%K YOU JimBob


thirdtimes_thecharm

why the hell are all these meetings taking place in bedrooms of all places?


corking118

Prosecution is not messing around with how they describe JB's testimony. You love to see it!


sosodistant

Nugget/Duggarsnark lawyers -- please help a confused person. I thought that even "protected" confessions to therapists/spiritual leaders were not considered protected if the confessor admits to a crime??? Like if you tell your therapist that you murdered someone they are obligated to report it? So why is this even being argued, since what he confessed to is a crime???


PeloHiker

Clergy are not always mandatory reporters. State law provides the following: 29) A clergy member, which includes a minister, priest, rabbi, accredited Christian Science practitioner, or other similar functionary of a religious organization, or an individual reasonably believed to be so by the person consulting him or her, except to the extent the clergy member: (A) Has acquired knowledge of suspected child maltreatment through communications required to be kept confidential pursuant to the religious discipline of the relevant denomination or faith; or (B) Received the knowledge of the suspected child maltreatment from the alleged offender in the context of a statement of admission; https://apps.rainn.org/policy/policy-state-laws-export.cfm?state=Arkansas&group=4


throwawayeas989

While reading bible stories to her? Christ,this just gets worse and worse.


Schmliza

“Jim Bob” in a legal document, I’m crying. 😭 great breakdown, as unusual!


soullessginger93

Trying to claim clergy privilege when they know damn well that woman aren't allowed to hold positions of authority in the church. Jim Bob wouldn't even admit that she wasn't an elder. A last ditch effort to get damning testimony thrown out that failed miserably.


CurlingFlowerSpace

> you have to write this brief and you don’t have the transcript from your witnesses yet? Hoooooly shit, they've spent so much money on this already, but the lawyers didn't spring for realtime or expedited transcriptions from the court reporter????


rilakkumkum

I haven’t even read the full thing, but YOURE ducking telling me that Josh was doing these things and his parents LIED and PLAYED IT OFF like it was some sort of kid being a little raunchy? Fucking disgusting. Throw the book at them all. Also it’s hilarious. The entire religion puts so much emphasis on women not being as much value as men, and now that’s being used against them. Good


Accurate_Action_6875

Which do you think is the stronger argument?


windy7146

On the privilege issue, I think the Prosecution has the stronger argument. However, they first need to convince the judge that the prior admissions/acts should come into evidence and that is a very high burden. They are two separate but related things. The judge could rule that there was no privilege but still not allow the statements to come into church evidence.


katycmb

The judge said in the evidence hearing that there are federal cases that have been overturned for NOT including prior history, so the defense has a very high burden to meet to exclude it. I don't think a ruling has been given, but apparently his history will be included.


nuggetsofchicken

I'm thinking Prosecution, if just for the fact that the policy implications if the Defense argument prevails seems completely untenable in the Bible belt. If every conversation that involves someone who has some title in the church, a vague reference to sin, and a prayer at some point becomes subject to privilege that means 70% of social interactions in conservative states would be privileged. For example, I go eat dinner with my friend and her family. Her dad is a pastor. We pray before the meal and within the prayer there's maybe a "and help us to become more like You" sentiment expressed. Her dad says something like, "Wow Starbucks has gotten really expensive." I crack a joke where I talk about how there were always flies in our pastry case when I worked at Starbucks. Is my admission about the lack of sanitation at Starbucks a privileged communication with a clergy now?


nuggetsofchicken

Bonus: [Email from Mama Nuggets](https://imgur.com/RpPi9Sq) regarding her views as an employee of a non-church religious nonprofit.


AtlanticTug

This is monstrous. Those poor children. And fuck every single dumb fuck who votes for JimBob in that election.


roadrunner1977

I have only followed the duggars sporadically, did they really try to have josh "court" at fifteen. There are a lot of sick cults, but usually the girl is fifteen and the guy is an adult. How old was the girl? This all sends huge red flags on what was going on in this cult. Why did he think confessing to the mother of his potential partner these disgusting things? Was he intentionally trying to stop this marriage?


elusivemoniker

I really hope the defense can't hold the Megyn Kelly debacle against Jill when she testifies. That interview was done under duress.


AccurateHoliday123

What do you think of the jury being asked if they knew Jill? Could they be setting her up as a witness or just trying to eliminate prejudice?