So this will sound weird, but Whisper of the Worm is also doing 25% less to champions than other Sniper Rifles. I tested on the Nightfall: * [41,693 Damage](https://i.imgur.com/73NdZ1q.jpeg) vs a Champion * [66,281 Damage](https://i.imgur.com/YqxYCCT.jpeg) vs a Major So you'll notice that's 37.1% less, so why did I say it was off by 25%? All snipers normally deal 16.1% less damage to champions, relative to majors. If you take Whisper's expected damage against champions (55,588) and divide it by the actual damage (41,693) you get... .75, a 25% reduction in damage almost exactly. Oddly similar to the LFRs for some reason? And yes, I did check DARCI, Izanagi, and a couple of legendary snipers. They all dealt the correct damage. ~~I don't have any older footage to compare, so if anyone can find Whisper being used in a GM or something it would confirm if this is a new change, or if it's always done less damage for some reason.~~ So yeah, looked up a [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2A-_cvJ5p8) of someone doing a GM from Season of the Lost. * [18,900 Damage](https://i.imgur.com/pit3MSl.jpeg) vs a Champion * [22,534 Damage](https://i.imgur.com/fmeSdyE.jpeg) vs a Major That is a difference of 16.1%, so it's definitely a recent bug also.


I’m genuinely curious how this change bounced around weapon archetypes thought to have independent tuning.


> thought to have independent tuning. Technically, everything is correct until it's not. I've played Destiny since it's been in the public hands - by now, this is not a surprise but still unfortunate.


Bungie spaghetti code


Even then, it seems stuff like this could be caught by a suite of automated tests which assert that weapon X hitting enemy Y still gives not-expected-to-change damage Z.


Except if said developers saw the failing unittest, didnt give a shit and greened it out by expecting Z to call it a day.




I'm a software eng, and a lot my colleagues do/did this....Every single time i have to be pathologic with the tests in reviews to make sure they arent fake green.


At this point I’m pretty sure the players are the testers.


At this point? Weve been sure since the beta of Destiny 1.


It's because banshee is trying to fix telesto




Not my gumdrop buttons…


That’s a great movie.


Somebody once told me


That explains why LFRs felt like they were a little slower than usual at killing the champs in Master Vow, even when I was using Stormchaser.


Literally just had the same experience. Could not figure out why it felt weaker.








Oh hope he recovers from whatevers happening


Continuously dealing with this community's bs would give anyone depression >!/s!<


I remember reading a while ago news about studies on this subject, and the results were that professionals dealing with online communities suffered from some form of actual PTSD.


It's not just online communities, anyone who has to deal with customers who can't physically see you receiving their abuse has this issue. I used to be a supervisor at a call center and even with a top tier benefits package, EXTREMELY lax attendance requirements, and basically throwing free money at employees constantly, we still frequently lost tier 1s to suicide. But online communities are definitely something else, and no one even seemed to realize it until that respected Blizzard community mod had their sudden and very public meltdown on the forums a few years back.


You know, I never thought about that, but I can definitely believe it


Bro, not even /s


I mean considering the community was so mad over a D1 exotic not returning, yanez received death threats and deleted his twitter… yea. This community is a lot to deal with.


Sadly, any video game that’s big/popular enough will have a section of the community that are super assholes about something or other


This is the truth sadly. I have my gripes about the game, but I'm not gonna issue death threats over it. I'll just stop playing or lower my playtime like I'm doing now. No one should get hurt over it. That's just rediculous.


Nobody deserves to get death threats and such especially over a video game but i gotta say That guy had some bad takes or weird opinions over destiny 2's sandbox balance


He’s the guy in charge of subclass design. The people who wanted more transparency had it through yanez for a long time, and then they broke it. That 1 to 1 communication with the guy who is responsible for these changes is no more, weird opinions or not.


There's transparency and then there is what and how he said what he said. Transparency is good but that other tweet he made about "but I didnt say we wouldn't be looking into a titan mobility option" (dont remember the exact wording) should have been in the exact same tweet he originally posted or the very next tweet but no it wasn't until people started coming after him that he said that. The destiny community is always on edge and it was not necessary to poke the bear. He didnt deserve death threats, no one does and it was wrong for people to send threats and harrassment to wards him. However people aren't really mentioning his part in this because he stirred up trouble. I'm sorry but his response was less then stellar. Titans have been either asking for a mobility option or twilight back since d2 started and instead some one had the insane idea to rip that ability out of the exotic and give it to warlocks. Then yanes says it's apart of the warlock identity? A stolen exotics ability? That's just adding fuel to a fire he has clearly not been paying attention to, one that blazed out of control before he could dump his bucket of water on it. Now I get it if he was tired of seeing that question and worded his comment in the way he did. How ever considering the bickering between players and devs or mods of any game community in the past let's say five years we know and he knows he should have worded it better and more completely than he did. He might have still gotten back lash but I don't think it would have been as bad. Granted we the d2 community have more communication between devs then most but that still does not mean we can't do better and that's on both sides. Players shouldn't be threatening devs and devs should at least say all of what they have to in one response in a more thoughtful way with a "we know however this is a thing you guys want so we are looking into it" to calm any backlash the initial response might net. Not a "well we are looking into it I never set we werent" (I'm not quoting him here) sort of panic comment after players didn't take to kindly to what could have been a better worded response. That's the transparency players want. And to be clear in my eyes both groups were wrong here. We are all adults and we should all be able to communicate like adults.


Wild that you wrote this many words on sympathizing with a pointless hate mob that ruined the communities 1 on 1 interaction with the abilities lead at bungie lol. Dude got death threats... over a video game lol


i didn't know that he was the only source of transparency from bungie also i just wanted to put my opinion of yanez coming from my perspective, you do not have to agree with it


After what happened to him, why would any other employee sign up for that kind of situation? It’ll all be twabs from here on out.


You should just stop before the word “but”


no i don't, i just wanted to say my opinion on his weird ideas for the sandbox you do not have to agree with my opinion


I mean, if you keep making people earn the same stuff over and over they might get a little upset when something they previously earned doesn't come back. Death threat worthy? No. But, we're up to at least the 10th time earning the Thorn 😂 Seriously, one of my biggest gripes is re-earning all the exotics I spent way too much time earning in D1. Then constantly changing the materials and money in the game, it gets exhausting.


Shut up. There is no justification for this behavior. Grow up.


Then don't re-earn it? Weird take, gamer


Right, weird take of spending a lot of time earning something... And then having to re-earn it. I'd rather spend time doing Raids, completing story, strikes, crucible, missions, or any of the other things. I mean if you like re-earning stuff, I'll give you a taco for $2... But, I'll take the taco back. Then I'll sell you the taco for $2 more. Interesting take, muncher.


So go do those things instead, that's literally what I said. Idk what you're on about lol.


I don't think it's appropriate to make assumptions about whatever Dylan's going through.


Good grief, if you get antidepressants then it is usually for a major depressive disorder. This isn't something you get like a sore head. You can trigger it by such events as mentioned above, but they aren't the source for it. I have to cope with it too and it is a live-long struggle.


95% of the "BS" is just valid criticism. Dealing with Bungholes BS would give anyone depression tho as its insanely hard to deal with the several million issues they created. For example, releasing Blight Ranger was a slap in the face when middle tree arc hunters still randomly fall over and die mid super. That bug has been around for 4 YEARS. BL is literally useless and it compounds with a useless super that has a horrible bug. Really sums up Bungholes apathy towards players and the game as a whole


There is very little valid criticism that comes from this garbage community


I really hate saying it But man ,that is really fking cringe, go touch some grass pls, somone got death threats over a fking videogame and you go "yeha but akshualy they have a point!!!"


lol whats cringey is that I gave a valid example of the valid criticism. And I didn't justify the death threats nor did I say "yeha but akshualy they have a point!!!" The other 5% is inexcusable and stupid. Also sucks that ppl like u make shit up/twist words which is also hard to deal with


And I'm sure that's somehow a community manager's fault and a reason to attack and harass him personally.




That aerial accuracy debacle has been horrible for the mental health of the community managers. Imagine your company massively fucks up and send you out there to defend and take all that heat. He cant say or do anything just absorb all the crap from the community knowing that he cannot effect change. I feel for the man.


I feel for him, and the other community managers. It seems like the higher ups just throws them to the wolves regularly instead of forcing measures to prevent the type of abuse they get. Bungie has their own forums that are relatively active. They could easily gate access to certain boards behind an account with a purchase history and/or in-game achievements, and only have the devs engage with people there. Instead of having a curated site to promote healthy discussions, a place where bad behavior would incur real consequences in the forms of bans and loss of accounts, they put them on Twitter of all places.


u/dmg04 take some time off my dude/lady. You are the best community manager I've ever seen. Health issues need to be taken seriously which it looks like you are. Don't worry about us, we'll be here when you return.


yall bullied this man into therapy smh u hate to see it...


i guess we going back to rockets


Good LFRs still do miles more DPS than reloading rockets without reload boosts and hold way, way more total damage. While not particularly realistic against champs, getting full value out of FTTC and B&S on Cataclysmic does like 50% more total damage than something like Lament and about 3x the total damage of Ghorn.


It's almost like LFRs have sustain and require an amount of skill to hit precision shots, whilst RLs have burst and just require a hit (and sometimes not even that) ...


Link to Kaphusky's post https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/vnyk41/all_lfrs_are_nerfed_against_champions/ and video https://youtu.be/2Gou-Hss_z0


Looks like this post got caught by automod when I submitted it and it only just got approved.


And now a real mod has removed it for being a repost ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ Hopefully it gets some traction. Might be worth posting a bug report on the forums?


Well, uh. Good thing I was feeling too lazy to delete this post after you mentioned it?


Reading your post just made me click about feeling my Linear did not seem to be melting the stunned Champs, even with an arc burn on, as much as I was expecting, while seeming to be doing ok as expected on the boss in the Master nightfalls I did lately… Upvoted and here’s hoping Bungie gets on to it and provides some clarity wether it is intended or not either ways. Cheers for raising it OP.


I knew something felt off. I was doing some LFR bounties during Nightmare Containment and the Overload guys that spawn felt like they took forever, even while stunned and headshots, to kill.


This game is so wild




I was using my crafted Cataclysmic in a Master Nightfall and it felt awfully weak compared to before. This must be why.


Same. Went back to hezen vengeance linked w/ gjally and blew everything apart.


If government worked the same way as Bungie's code, putting out a minor city ordnance would somehow result in turning off gravity in a 10 mile radius.


their engine is antiquated and their code is a well documented shambles. Shoulda cleaned house with D3


This seems like a pretty good description of the US government as well. It's like they haven't debugged that shit since 1750 or something.


you may not know how correct you actually are ;)


“ Making DLCs is too hard “ for them lol 0 way they are making a new game


I knew I was suddenly not melting champions like before, something felt off about it.


As a programmer I feel Bungie has too little tests they can run for things like this. If they have any 🙄


*Someone I know* works on a critical service with a few billion active users. You would not believe the battery of automated tests that every change goes through before the pull request can even be sent.


To me it comes off as either laziness or lack of veteran devs. This is not the first time changes aimed at an exotic have hit an entire archetype, or vice versa. Sure, maybe they don't have adequate tests, but with the same mistake being made in the past, nobody thought to boot up the game and double check numbers before shipping it?


No testing and spaghetti code


Wasn’t sunsetting pushed down our throats because it was supposed to prevent this?


I think more down to the fact that they're code is so highly coupled that messing with one module affects things that are years old. And being how small Bungie is, they don't have the time and money to do regression testing.


A dev with 820+ FTEs is considered small these days?


My fortune 500-size company has 3 total people to develop and support all of their websites... It's chaos, and 2 of them are front end only.




they certainly act like an indie, claiming AAA.


Bought for 3.8 billion and still can’t get their shit together 😒


And this won't be fixed for the rest of the season 👍🏼


Is this why Stormchaser is so much better than the others, because since it’s a different archetype it’s not falling under the (obviously erroneous) nerf?


No, because this unintended nerf only applies to Champions. Stormchaser’s higher damage profile is applicable to all combatants from minors to bosses.


Stormchaser still has this nerf right? I was expecting for it to do way more damage than it is compared to standard Linears last season


If it's an LFR, it's doing reduced damage to champions, regardless of frame.


Stormchaser sucked in the master lost sector I tried yesterday. I had to switch.


Yuuup it felt super weak. I switched to cataclysmic, which did better, but that's because it matched the solar burn.


Yikes. I doubt this will be fixed or even addressed before GMs release...unfortunate.


Ya, they release in 5 days, no way this gets fixed before then.


Aaaah I see, a fellow leviathans breath enjoyer!


Hey bungie, if you are going to make the players do the testing for you, maybe you should be paying us?


A small and uneven amount of silver, take it or leave it


7 Silver would be genuinely hilarious.


77 silver take it or leave it


Bro we don’t even get silver in the season pass when every other game seems to give out premium currency, they’ll never do that lol


That's why they said small and uneven amount. You would never be able to spend it.


Lol go fuck yourself -bungie


This but unironically. Entitled little shits


Honestly with how much shit is broken, the fact that anti-barrier sidearm was broken for A MONTH. There should be a compensation system like gacha games have where they give us free bright dust and shit.


Genshin compensates you on the smallest of bugs even if they don't affect you lol. I got 100 primos some time ago because of a bug with two characters I don't even have.


More likely to make us pay to report bugs like this.


Pay you... To play the game... That you bought... To play.


Uh huh


So they're supposed to be BETTER???


I thought I was crazy when my threaded needle felt not as powerful


hope it gets fixed quick


We hear you. Changing descriptions to match the conditions: “this weapon deals 25% less damage”


I knew it, they nerfed us


Ummm since when weapons had their own leveling ??? Or Am I seeing wrong ?!




Thx,been a long while since I played that game.


Bruh you’re getting downvoted for asking a question..


They'll stealth edit the patch notes to include this as intentional.


> Vox Obscura (1550) can be weapon overleveled by up to +50, so I will be dealing 124% damage in this activity. Did something change with this mechanic recently? Normally, all difficulty-based activities *(Contest modifier notwithstanding)* can only be over leveled by +20. It's only things like patrol and whatnot that have the +50 over level cap. This was true of both Presage and Harbinger to my knowledge, so it would be odd if Vox did *not* also follow this pattern. I'm currently only +16 on my Artifact, so I can't test this. Not trying to discredit your post or anything. I'm genuinely curious if this changed or if Vox is, for some reason, not following everything else.


1567+21 (+38 recommended) [The Enigma]( https://i.imgur.com/BzvEBWt.png): 6,433 1560+21 (+31 reccommended) [Nezarec's Whisper](https://i.imgur.com/uBBxgwm.png): 6142 Both have [major spec equipped](https://i.imgur.com/PeYk3K2.png). I don't make the rules, but that's just how it is. If you're curious, a fairly comprehensive list can be found [here](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b57Hb8m1L3daFfUckQQqvvN6VOpD03KEssvQLMFpC5I/edit#gid=1445911137).


That's so weird. I wonder why this one mission goes against the norm of all the others? Do any other *"Legend"* activities do this, like Duality? Again, I haven't tested this since WQ launched, so perhaps things changed then?


The game considers 1550 Vox Obscura as ["normal"](https://i.imgur.com/EqlBZao.png) instead of "Legend". In a sense, it's consistent with something like a Patrol Lost Sector to a PED Lost Sector. If you don't count that, then it is unique.


Oh damn, you're right. I guess I never noticed that. I was just assuming it was Legend, since there was a Master variant. I wish this stuff could get sorted out a bit more, so we didn't need huge spreadsheets and posts like yours just to understand how to be most effective in all the various activities. Again, that's not a knock on your post in any way. I just wish Bungie was more upfront and consistent about all these power level modifiers and caps. Thanks for the info.


Unrelated but what roll are you running on your bow?


Under Your Skin: Elastic String, Compact Arrow Shaft, Archer’s Tempo, Successful Warm-up, reload masterwork. Nothing particularly special.


Should be moved out for some fun gun like UT04 Bio gun, blob gun. Coooool! UT 04 Link gun, buffed to currently normal #s could be a solar alt Could be delay energy pulse & steady stream. JUST thoughts....hold the big stones.


Meh, they still one shot guardians so it’s fine


Off topic, but has anyone else noticed that bait and switch doesn’t do much damage on Nightmare Containment final bosses? Like you can hit for 100k+ on the yellow bars in the first two stages but it does less than 50k on the final boss.


The light level increases with each level of Containment


It's funny because I was just bitching and moaning doing the master lost sector today, using stormchaser. I just got it yesterday and was stoked. Bright it in and was like wtf this thing sucks. Now I know why. Guess I can use it during arc 3.0, if AB sidearm is an indication. How was this not addressed in the twab.








Vorpal doing more damage is the reason why I didn’t use one with it, aside from Vorpal only being available on completely different linear fusion rifles. I want to keep all possible factors as identical as possible to show the damage changes.




Vorpal is 10% on heavy weapons, literally less than any other damage buff




OP is testing base damages to show that LFR's got nerfed when Bungie said only Arbalest was getting nerfed. Vorpal would only mean more numbers to take into account on any testing.




It's not about how good they are. It's about them getting a blanket nerf when only arbalest was supposed to recieve the nerf.


He’s damage testing base numbers without damage perks you pillock




Vorpal is not the best damage perk post nerf when you have so many sources above 10% now. It’s just ok Solo or if you can’t get something else to proc easily, but even then there’s so many good options that outclass. Not that it matters here when all you are testing is damage between seasons with same /similar rolls.


How can anyone be this confused lmao


Dude you seem so confused. It's not relevant because this post isn't about whether they're strong or weak, this is only about the fact that they received an unannounced and seemingly unintended nerf.


You're whole existance is irrelevant if you don't understand the purpose of the post. I can't believe someone can be this dumb.


You may be missing the point. Even the same gun WITH vorpal would be going 25% less damage if affected by this. ie: If a Vorpal LFR did 100 damage against a champion before, it’s now doing 75 against that champion (assuming all other variables equal). This is unintentional so far as we know. I think that’s all that the OP is stating.


So that means the guy who did the LFR damage test… his numbers are technically wrong since weapon damage is “bugged” and definitely not intentional at all


You mean [this test?](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/vj01l8/i_tested_all_the_linear_fusion_rifles_and_here/) He was testing against a Boss, the nerf only affect Champions