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I was disappointed with the direction that they took with the Deep Stone Crypt. The way it was described back in the Grimoire made it sound like a hidden fortress that the exos could only remember through dreams. I also wish they would have kept going with the ties Cayde had with the DSC. Specifically the messages we find during the Ace in the Hole quest in Forsaken. It seems like the idea for the DSC was completely changed for Beyond Light, and that's a shame. Most of the setup feels like it was tossed out the window.


I feel like if it weren't for the statue, it'd be the least interesting Bray location on Europa too. I was hoping for a clear Central bit where you can see where people might enter as humans and leave as Exo, but really you see that kind of stuff in every lab on Europa. Felt a bit more like prop scatter rather than environmental storytelling.


As an exo main i agree, there was a whole titan mark in D1 that made it sound like a tower that we had to battle to get to. Then we visit Europa and, yeah it’s kinda grand, but it’s not some impregnable fortress like they originally made it out to be.


I’m gonna use this post to vent about why I don’t care about most aspects of the DSC raid. I’ll start with what I like tho. Pros: Spacewalk + Music is indeed one of the prettiest things we do in Destiny. I kinda wish we had time to appreciate it without the enemies, but it’s still an excellent section. It *hard carries* the rest of the raid. Very cool raid perks. And decent looking armor. That’s it. Cons/Critiques: The actual facility itself is super boring and unassuming. Just a big cylinder, not particularly big or interesting looking. If it actually got cooler as we went along it’d be nice but… We barely spend any time in the actual Crypt! We do some security BS and then the next encounter we aren’t even on Europa! Just the Morning Star contingency station in orbit! Fallen Exo as a concept is completely wasted. Only unique ability is to just make lots of copies. And Atraks immediately dies! The biggest mistake of the raid is that the bosses are switched around. Don’t get me wrong; I love Taniks, I think it’s hilarious that he came back yet again, but having him be the final boss was so stupid. He’s not powerful enough to be a raid boss. And having the second boss be a bunch of copies of Taniks fits so much better for someone who won’t stay dead! If we kill Taniks first and Atraks escapes, the topic of 3rd encounter could’ve involved even more exploration of fallen exo abilities, ending with the whole point being that fallen exos being so powerful that we need to drop a nuclear station on one to even crack the armor. Then final boss with something even remotely similar to Taniks in terms of procedure could’ve worked. But nope, stupid Taniks gets two encounters dedicated to him instead of getting his ass handed to him again by a bunch of guardians, and Atraks-1, the very first Fallen Exo, shows up and then immediately dies. Silly rant over, feel free to ignore.


I’m almost betting that they’ll bring Atraks back as Atraks-2, it’s suuuch as waste of a concept


I really hope they do, but I doubt it. Maybe as some house salvation focused season where we get a dumbed down version of the raid fight in a different location to introduce players to it.


You've awoken us from our lurk. Agree, maybe it is because I focused a bit much on thr old Exo Grimoire description of the Exos as sentient machines made for war and the lack of openness of how they existed during the Golden Age and why all wbo remain see that in their dreams You've awoken us from our lurk. Agree, maybe it is because I focused a bit much on the old Exo Grimoire description of the Exos as sentient machines made for war and the lack of openness of how they existed during the Golden Age. My brain ran wild with the lack of explantion in D1. I though that the Exos were both Organic Transfers and a truly Artifical Species just because Humanity could and they were alone and in the vaccum, Warmachines became another tool. With Artifical Exo being sometimes crafted as a past time by Golden Age Artists. The creation of life becoming an art form. My brain ran wild with the lack of explantion in D1. I though that the Exos were both Organic Transfers and a truly Artifical Species just because Humanity could and they were alone and in the vaccum, Warmachines became another tool. With Artifical Exo being sometimes crafted as a past time by Golden Age Artists. The creation of life becoming an art form.


Between that early nebulous idea of what exos are and learning about Felwinter I've decided my exo Titan is an artificial mind basically kitbashed into a pieced-together exo body by an AI researcher back in the Golden Age. She just may not realize that thanks to the Light


Another Build-a-bot myself! Though left more ambiguous for a story as what would've been a standard issue Exo faceless grunt in with a bloodstain across his face that won't wash off for some reason. Though did some plans as to add something about the Seven Seraphs or a Istar Geek.


Rasputin, but like, way back. The original Rasputin was clearly intended to be a literal War Mind—a kind of chess AI but for war. Unfeeling, not conscious, not really a person but a machine playing a game. It spoke only in pre-recorded Russian messages, and was inscrutable and impossible to reason with or relate to. Just a machine following its programming, unlike anything else in the Destiny universe. Then Warmind came out and pretty much ruined Rasputin. Now he’s just some guy who happens to control most of the Golden Age’s weapons. Far less interesting. Plus, to make him relatable, they had to un-Russian him? Come on. The connection to Braytech was forced and detrimental, and overall D2 Rasputin is way less interesting and unique than D1 Rasputin.


I agree. [Ghost Fragment: Mysteries](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-mysteries) is so dope


This one bothers me the most. D1 he was an AI that to a human would seem more like a god. Clearly inspired by Durandal and Mendicant Bias. When the old grimoire cards described him as fighting with “Aurora Knives” that wasn’t the name of a Braytech weapon, it was a way to describe the scope and scale of his power through poetic language we might be able to better understand.


Xivu should be way more scary and present in the story instead of relegated to "her forces are doing a bad thing" every few seasons


I’m hopeful for a big villain role in the future. Savathun was similarly drip fed and teased over the years. Here’s hoping this is Xivu’s prelude to something much bigger.


With the Final Shape being the end of the light and dark saga, she is bound to appear sooner or later


I’m currently in a betting war that xivu will be a major player in the saga after Light and Dark, namely because she’d be the only real threat to worry about since we’re gonna turn the witness into a gun.


the vex make more sense to me, xivu's whole deal is being tied to the witness


I'm more willing to bet they wrap up Xivu in a seasonal story. Maybe Season of the Deep? Literally it has all the bearings of being a Hive season. But I don't see Xivu making it to the Final Shape.


Maybe they’ll make her the Raid Boss for The Final Shape. Season of the Deep sound like it will be taken based seeing how we’ll need to go to Titan


Let's be real, unfortunately she will probably a boss in a final seasonal mission one day lol (e.g. Xol, Nokris, Quria, etc)


I can see her be the campaign boss, unless they're doing a repeat of Oryx with the Witness where he is both the campaign and raid boss.


Maybe, I'm not thinking so. I feel like the Hive in general was sort of demoted as a foe since Disciples entered the picture, especially after it was revealed that the Hive were just pawns of the Witness's plans the whole time. But I guess we'll find out soon enough


My theory is she'll be the raid boss in final shape.


Xivu will likely be dealt with as a villain after Final Shape


I think that the deep stone crypt never really lived up to all the hype it got with exos dreaming of a giant black spire where they had to fight to the death no matter what with every other exo in the solar system all at the same time. and it kinds just ended up being a factory and a space station. although it was very good it just want what i wanted it to be. that and I don't think Quria, Blade Transform got the fight they deserved they were a raid level antagonist easily.


After reading the collector edition about the true nature of Exos and Clovis Bray experiments its not just a factory and station.


we never went to the real dpc because we went into the morning star (space station) instead of going into the real factory and the tower and fight to death thing was in the exo training program


Copy of my other one Agree, maybe it is because I focused a bit much on thr old Exo Grimoire description of the Exos as sentient machines made for war and the lack of openness of how they wxisted during the Golden Age. My brain ran wild with the lack of explantion in D1. I though that the Exos were both Organic Transfers and a truly Artifical Species just because Humanity could and they were alone and in the vaccum, Warmachines became another tool. With Artifical Exo being sometimes crafted as a past time by Golden Age Artists. The creation of life becoming an art form.


Feels like they're taking the "Game of Thrones" approach to consolidating plotlines lately and to quell "Hey what about XYZ character?" questions... S19 - Rasputin is back! We spend the whole season restoring the warmind, only for him to be killed off. S20 - Hey, remember Amanda Holiday? Here's some additional lore and focus for her. She's dead. Pray for whoever is the focus of S21.


I think you’ve nailed it here. The consolidation and introduction of rapid fire story beats are clearly undermining their character development and overall narrative. Moreover, lightfall completely missed its marketing and it makes me genuinely concerned that final shape will be as narratively unsatisfying as GoT or Lost.


I think we gotta hold out hope that the final shape story beats are planned and have been, and that light fall was filler


That’s the best way to look at it. I don’t think lightfall was a truly terrible expansion but it does give off the vibe of is this really the plan ?


Season of the Deep... so maybe Eris? 💀


I guess they solved factions that way too, come to think of it


this is pretty reductive, we didn't get any additional lore for amanda, that was just summarising what everyone who has read the lore knows for people who didn't know. focus, sure, but that doesn't really mean anything. eramis and mithrax were focused on a lot in plunder and they're bing chilling. same with the focuses of haunted. people kept saying "omg zavala is gonna die" and now look.


i legit hope they just forget about sjur eido at this point


I feel the entire Dreaming city plot line was just dropped. Whatever happened to Savathun’s plans with Riven? Her goal of discovering the Distributary?


Savathûn got rekt


Yea I wish distributary was Witch Queen’s location. Almost feels like the idea was scrapped because they had to tie the pyramids into it somehow.


Worst part is they could’ve easily set up the Pyramids during Savathûn’s arrival in the system for the Distributary. I wish the Distributary was Lightfall’s destinations. It would explain why it seems like minutes passed between the opening and ending cutscenes and it’s also a destination properly foreshadowed rather than an asspull


Yea that actually would’ve been a really interesting way to explain the cutscene “phenomena.” I feel like they could’ve even tied the veil into it too. Obv we really don’t know what it is yet, but it could’ve been another result of the combination of light and dark that created the distributary, light and dark made whole or something.


Yeah thematically it’s so much more fitting. And something hidden away in a pocket dimension makes far more sense than just chilling on one of the main planets of the Sol System. The fact that the Distributary was created when Light and Dark clashed with full force tearing apart reality itself makes it a perfect area to explore with the trend of light and dark blending right now.


I mean, to address one of those points, Savathun never truly intended in finding the Distributary. She only made us *think* she did, creating more tribute for herself through that deception. It's the whole thing about imbaru.


it was addressed in lost, it failed. everything failed up until the point she was frozen and had to make the bargain


I'm annoyed with the Dreaming City still being stuck in limbo. I also don't like the idea of Riven being the last Ahamkara. There's a bit of interesting lore about the Nine's interest in the Ahamkara but it's never fully explored. Honestly Destiny teases such rich, interesting, lore and then almost always delivers the most stale, boring, rendition of it in-game. The only example of this not being the case for me were Taken King and Forsaken. The Hive and the Awoken were made so much more interesting with those expansions. I remember being in awe of the descriptions of the Worm gods from the books of sorrow. Then we actually saw them I was.....underwhelmed... Anyways, Bungie please cleanse the Dreaming City and make more parts of it explorable. Also, let us see the hidden reef cities and let's hope they're alive and full of people - not just collections of abandoned hallways a la Neomuna. Speaking of Neomuna, I think the digital cloudark citizenry is the biggest recent disappointment for me. I wanted a living a metropolis, not the boring shell we received


Agreed about Riven. I wish Ahamkara and Worm Gods and the like weren't all tiny, finite numbers that kept getting whittled down. I just prefer the setup of the universe out there being scarier than what's here in our system. Sometimes that seems lost, especially now with the Witness in town.


We went a long while without too many massive retcons after Warmind, but when the Quria retcons hit in Splicer it all started breaking down. The Quria retcons were downright offensive tbh. Really frustrating and made me realize they had no intention of following up on Forsaken’s endgame story


>I'm annoyed with the Dreaming City still being stuck in limbo. I also don't like the idea of Riven being the last Ahamkara. There's a bit of interesting lore about the Nine's interest in the Ahamkara but it's never fully explored. ​ For sure. I was so excited in Season of the Lost to FINALLY get some closure on this story... only for WQ to turn around and give Savathun amnesia.... WQ was great fun, but man did it hurt to see all these schemes that had been building up get washed away by fucking amnesia....


Tbh the moment we killed Quria and the Dreaming City situation wasn't resolved right after was a dead giveaway that the curse would remain there since Quria was the "only one" that commanded the Taken at the time, once she died Savathun had no way to reverse the curse so she planned things out quite well (it was the guardians doing for the curse to fall on the DC and it was their doing that killed the one who could reverse the curse), however I would add that since the Witness controls the taken at the moment we could potentially see progress to this plot after we get rid of them.


Yes. Also, keep in mind that Xivu was part of the Curse on DC too. Many of the Taken there are from her brood, and I'm pretty sure I remember Dul'Incaru is her daughter. ​ So there are still major characters in the game that can be used to tie it out. I'm more worried that Bungie's promise not to vault content anymore will make it impossible to resolve the curse in a practical sense. We might get some gameplay story that says it's done, but they aren't intending to vault DC so it wouldn't make sense to remove 80% of the content of the zone for the sake of tying off a loose end...


I hadn't thought about that which does make a whole lot of sense, who knows how much they have discussed a work around internally to move through with the Dreaming city without getting rid of old content, although they probably have stats regarding how much of the player base interacts with that content which will definitely have a say on their decision.


For sure. And those data are what drove their decisions about what to vault and what to keep in the first place. But we all saw how well that's gone over... I like that they are going back and updating things from the past though like the Deepstone Crypt weapons and the older strikes. It gives me hope that rather than "vaulting" DC, maybe they could just "renovate" it as the way to conclude it's storyline? It would be tricky though... I don't envy their position here lol


I'm disappointed how Bungie seems to shrink every aspect of their world. Especially with the launch of destiny 2. Every enemy sub-faction rolled into one. Sunbreakers off screened. Brother Vance is actually just a joke. Warminds? Sorry there's just one. Deep stone crypt having some mystique to it, nah it's a lab same as the others. Savathuns light hive having done nothing for a year. Oh the way they handled Calus will leave me feeling salty for a while.


Same, each subfaction felt like it expanded every part of the larger conflict all while giving depth and inpsired the size of just how space big with this many aliens in our solar system. Even if the Patrol zones even to now just don't really feel open world to me. (Seriously enemies spawn every 25 seconds and stand there instead of adding some size of the map, maybe something with the engine. The Fallen Houses made it feel a lot immersive to think about the Eliksni have fractued into scavengers and raider. I also do remember they came with slight enemy differences if you encountered a specfic house. You could imagine whether the names, Winter, Wolf Devils, etc if they were translated into something we understand or because they've forgotten so much about their original culture. Vex Collectives like massive material algorithms of not even being a to the Vex as a whole and a faceless entity yet also giving character on the scale of how they see things. Hive Broods actually wait what the f- Cabal Legions gave the Cabal real imagery as a conventional/Warhammeresque military with its divisions and specializations in their unique legion colors and uniform plus I kind of just liked D1's Cabal design than the Red Legion overall.


This. God I miss the older fallen houses. Like even dusk is just kinda...there now I guess. Crassk got axed off screen and the house of kings no more thus ruining that plotline.


> Cabal Legions gave the Cabal real imagery as a conventional/Warhammeresque military with its divisions and specializations in their unique legion colors and uniform plus I kind of just liked D1's Cabal design than the Red Legion overall. On a related note, did anyone else prefer the heavily bureaucratic D1 Cabal over the D2 Roman Empire Cabal? Don't give them feuding leaders, that's more the Fallen's thing, just dispassionate military organization. Either; * The Cabal don't have a singular authority figure, they're a heavily bureaucratized military junta not the dictatorship of any one individual. The empire's actions are emergent rather than ordered. * They're governed by something unexpected, like a democracy. Service guarantees citizenship. * If we ever met the Cabal leader, they'd be weaker than the average Cabal we encountered since they were a politician not a soldier. Their bodyguards would be the actual bossfight.


I wonder if they try to shrink things down into a game setting. It might be more manageable for them


Who keeps downvoting this post for just a lore question/discussion? Either way, Id say that we got Riven killed, her heart cleansed, and shes still present there even in death. We do all of that "for the plans to come." But we've not gotten any updates on Riven's status outside of season of the lost where the heart and a corrupted egg is in Mara's chambers. Outside of that, we havent had anything else related to the ex-taken Ahamkara


This is really getting dowmvoted?.. Yeah seems like another thread plucked to reach the Final Shape faster


COnsistently within 5 minutes of posting it was at 0 karma. Meaning someone downvoted it. I upvoted it so itd be at 1, and immediately someone else downvoted it as well to have it at 0. I do not understand why, but people really downvote blindly to keep posts at 0 karma? Because it happens consistently for me for any mid post.


The Reddit voting algorithm is weird. It displays how many "real" votes it thinks the post should have and it settles down after a few hours. IIRC YouTube's voting works similar.


This is an old one but making outer sol mostly the same as inner sol after implying it was "the dark half of the system" in D1 is lame AF


For me it's Rasputin. Not unhappy that he sacrificed himself. But I think that he was the character with the most knowledge about the Collapse, and we learnt nothing from him during Seraph. Moreover, I think the idea that Abhorrent Imperative was a plan to attack the Traveller that he didn't go through with is the least interesting revelation. We all already kind of thought that, so I was hoping for a twist. Runners up are - Dreaming City remaining in Limbo - Deep Stone Crypt losing some of its D1 mystique and probably being the least interesting Bray location on Europa - City and Guardian factions


I am actually glad they had the abhorrent imperative twist plastered all throughout last season because it literally took Rasputin telling us THREE TIMES that he didn't shoot the Traveler for some people to finally get that he didn't do it, I'm quite sure that there's still a number of people who skipped last season and still think Rasputin shot the traveler.


I’m sure there are people who did play last season and still think that.


I've seen at least one person claim "Rasputin didn't shoot the traveler" was actually a retcon. Some folks really are that stubborn.


Had an argument with someone about that literally right after that lore came out.


I think I would have just preferred if Abhorrent Imperative was something different. There were some creative niche theories about how Rasputin could have forced pseudo altruistic action, like aiming at humanity, embracing the darkness, or some kind of bargain with the Traveller. I dunno there was a lot of mystery potential imo.


no bone-chilling, reverse-Russian speech. 0/10, would not recommend !


Biggest crime was dropping the unfathomable AI god aesthetic in exchange for a good natured Exo boy.


I don't particularly like the introduction of The Witness. The direction the story started going in Forsaken really opened up some discussion on finding the line between the morality of violence and the necessity of nurturing in a hostile and indifferent universe. By Shadowkeep the "darkness" started talking to us and was starting to make a lot of sense, though flawed, but it highlighted flaws in the light as well and the direction seemed to be finding balance. Although also technically revealed in Shadowkeep, the more we learned about The Witness the more they're shaping out to be simply a genocidal "Big Bad" of Destiny and almost 4 years later no clear motivation for The Witness has revealed itself. It's frustratingly vague and many characters like Eris, Mara, Drifter, and Elsie (who were experts on 'the deep') have seemingly since completely stopped trying to understand the Darkness's (Now Witness) intentions. If the Witness (or whatever primary antagonist in Destiny from the beginning) really does just want to end all life that's a knee jerk direction in the story and I find incredibly disappointing.


Completely agreed. To me the Light and Darkness being amoral natural forces is the least interesting direction possible, especially since they had to retcon a decade's worth of lore to make it fit. Unveiling is imo the single best lorebook in the series (and the Winnower managed to be one of the most compelling antagonists despite only speaking in two lorebooks and never appearing in-game) but the current lore's take on all that seems to be "uhhh sorry none of that matters, Unveiling was all lies and the Winnower was actually just the Witness putting on a fake mustache to fuck with you for some reason" I don't know why they still advertise the story of Destiny as the "Light vs Dark saga" when it turns out the two forces aren't even in conflict and everything bad about the Dark was made up by the Witness - it's like trying to get invested in a Solar vs Arc saga, if the only differences are aesthetic then why should I care? I might feel differently if the Witness was more interesting, but yeah - either we take it at face value and its motivations really *are* just "wants to kill everything because life is suffering", which is boring and has been done in like 15 games already, or it's lying and its motivations are still completely unknown, which doesn't seem like a great direction for the final boss of the entire story that we're presumably going to be killing in a year


The thing I personally hate the most is that even after years of very coherent build-up with the Witness, its goals, motivations, history, etc they have basically just written it all off vaguely under the idea of "it was all lies and we don't know its goals at all" and like thats just....boring? Like, telling me I wasted at the least 7 years being invested in this enemy just for effectively an entirely different character with the same face to take its place is...extremely lame and just tells me "none of this actually matters" (which, yes, its just a story but I shouldn't be feeling that in the midst of the climax)


The Lightfall story is representative of it too. You're doing things with no explanation etc and it just feels like everything happening doesn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things. It annoys me to play a game etc and at the end, none of your actions in the game matter etc. It feels like a developer just wasted my time when all was said and done. A prime example of this outside of Destiny is Last of Us Part 2. Whole game is about vengeance etc and at the end, nothing mattered at all because the task your character set out to do, gave up on it.


We figured out the intentions. The Darkness isn't a villain. The Darkness is a force, which was a major realization. Saying The Witness = The Darkness is like saying The Traveler = The Light. Everything dies also makes sense. As we learn about the Flower Gane, everything just kept resetting until the Gardener basically changed the rules. The Witness HATES all of Life as Life = Pain. It's a flawed perception, but it makes sense. Prophecy showed this off well. If the Darkness is destroyed The Light simply destroys everything by making sure nothing dies. I


>Saying The Witness = The Darkness ... I agree, and I didn't say that or try to imply that Edit: Nevermind, I kinda see how you would've got that impression. I edited my original comment to make it more clear. I was sort of using the Darkness/Witness interchangeably because the antagonist before the Witness was just blanket referred to as "The Darkness". >The Witness HATES all of Life as Life = Pain Do you have a source for that? That's how I interpret their intentions, but again that's incredibly shallow motivation and their actions don't seem to parallel that at all. The Witness and the Black Fleet sat well outside the galaxy for seemingly hundreds of years, why didn't the Witness move on Earth when the Traveler was incapacitated? As I mentioned it seems to be a knee jerk direction change in the narrative from even when the Witness was first introduced. Don't even get me started on whatever is going on this season lol


The witness looks at death as being an essential part of life in universe+ it believes that any life in the universe has to prove its right to exist so that any life that does exist doesnt suffer pain from competition with other life and the logical conclusion of that philosophy is the final shape where nothing exists. All of this is just my interruption at least from the lore i’ve read and its mostly from unveiling+and the fact that the sword logic was taught to the hive by the witness but all of the lore of the witness it came from the witness and it speaks only in metaphors and analogies so its not very clear since bungie said this year we’re learning about the witness seemingly from other sources so i think its gonna give us a way clearer answer to


Kinda wish Riven was still relevant (not like in a major way, but had at least had a presence moreso) since she lives on in One Thousand Voices. It was interesting to hear her speak with us in the Shattered Throne and I'm not sure from a lore perspective (I know why from a meta perspective with VA logistics) what has kept her silent since. It would've been cool to hear an Ahamkara's perspective from time to time, especially during something like Season of the Lost.


The 4th wall breaking, meta elements.


Same. I hope they don't actually go anywhere with that, because it would probably ruin the story and mood of the game.


The fastest way to completely destroy the stakes in any media is to wink at the camera and say “remember everyone, none of this is real and it’s all a video game”. That stuff was really not interesting and it actively harms the game’s intrigue. The whole “Savathun wants to leave the game and enter the real world 😱” stuff was the stupidest shit I’ve heard.


> t, because it would probably ruin the story and mood of the game. Too late. But those breaks are buried in the lore so most people don't see them.


Same it makes it seem to cap Guardians and see us as not being away from the Warlords mentally, another reason Neomuna didn't want anything to do With us in the Dark age


> Neomuna Is also a badly executed idea.


*inhales Yeah. Maybe just me but I really wanted some Blade Runner Metropolis struggling in a world long past their Golden Age and or them acting high and mighty with lots of friction firsthand With a more Civilian Counsel to our Vanguard and angry for the Pyramids invading with a lot of the Neomunans distrustful and a lot seeing us as a side almost akin to occupation or some such as the Us/FOTC set up firebases. With someone getting rightfully pissed and their treatment as it comes to a head. Until us and the Neomuanns having to set aside differences and repair the divide and differences of two humanities to fight effectively as things get darker for at end of the tunnel. Or maybe I'm just pulling a Dragon Age because I like it


> Maybe just me but I really wanted some Blade Runner Metropolis struggling in a world long past their Golden Age and or them acting high and mighty with lots of friction firsthand With a more Civilian Counsel to our Vanguard and angry for the Pyramids invading with a lot of the Neomunans distrustful and a lot seeing us as a side almost akin to occupation or some such as the Us/FOTC set up firebases. I agree in princeple. It is like Bungie ignored the logical conflict between the Last City and a Group humans who largely survived the collapse unscathed and did nothing to help the rest of humanity.


The Eliksni/Fallen in general have been steadily more and more disappointing to me. House of Wolves set up a lot of cool ideas got lost in the shuffle. There was this whole mystery of the House of Rain and their prophecies and what had been lost from the Eliksni's past. Then the House of Rain got used as a generic mook placeholder and it turned out there was a regular Bridge group from before the Whirlwind that could still meet up... A lot of little things. And my big, controversial take is that I wished the Awoken and Mara Sov had been less unambiguously good. Early on they seemed to be more of a situational ally of earth, and I thought that was a more interesting dynamic.


Mara and the Awoken going from offering to help for a price to now offering to help because we're busy on Neptune is wack.


It feels like they've been chopping off plotlines to make the story easier to deal with. I remember when it seemed like there was gonna be a whole Eliksni game of thrones storyline; all the different factions vying for Kell of Kells. That House Rain prophecy! House Kings, who used to rule the Eliksni race and were doing stuff in the shadows? Nah let's delete those bozos in a single lore entry. Variks? Last surviving member of House Judgment, making him possibly the single most lore-important Eliksni in the game? The dude who got an entire lorebook about how he was gonna get up and start doing things like the old guy in a shounen anime? Nope that was a lie apparently. I was looking forward to Variks being a neutral middle ground between Eramis and Misraaks; no Light, no Darkness, only Eliksni. There's so much fricking potential for even a single interaction between Eido and Variks, can you imagine how overjoyed Eido would be to get the knowledge of someone who lived before the Whirlwind and the advice of the last member of House Judgment? Killing off Rasputin felt contrived. Red was made to be a weapon, which Xivu Arath could subvert by dint of her mere existence? Ok I'll buy that, but was self-destruction really the only answer to that? We spent the season assimilating new fragments into Red which changed his personality and gave him a closer connection to humanity and gave him an exo body, but that still wasn't enough to make him MORE than a weapon? Throwing away Quria in a weekly mission, didn't even get close enough to appreciate Quria's model. I remember someone posted its model a while back and it had a body horror vibe with an entire spinal column (very cool). I don't like how the intersection of the Witness/Rhulk and the Hive felt contrived (to me anyway) in a way to make the Hive retroactively 'less cool'. "you thought the Hive were world-ending threats, nah they were pansies! here's an enemy with some real chest hair!" Eris Morn, the guardian who devoted her life to studying hive magic after nearly dying to Crota? Yeah I'm sure she wouldn't even be interested in Savathun, we don't need to let her know about the WQ campaign.


The retcons to the explanations of stasis and the darkness


The abandonment of the Dreaming City storyline alongside a lot of Savathûn’s plot setup from Forsaken. Retconning Quria’s role in the timeloop and Savathûn’s ability to take was frustrating to see. And completely dropping Savathûn’s plans for getting into the Distributary ruined what was a perfect expansion setup. The fact that the Distributary could perfectly do what Neomuna was meant to in the story is just salt in the wound. God man they had so much compelling setup in Forsaken and they retconned almost ALL of it. Now it feels like Forsaken had no real impact in the greater narrative of Destiny. It should have been the set up for Witch Queen and instead it’s a footnote in the Light and Dark saga.


The overall darkness aesthetic. It feels like it has too much personality if that makes sense. In Shadowkeep when we entered the Pyramid it felt so alien. The hallways were huge and had lighting that gave off an eerie vibe. When WQ came around they updated the Darkness theme to help solidify what it would look like in the future. Rhulks pyramid was amazing, the artifacts, weird horse-like statues, aliens trapped in stasis. All of this added to his personality of being basically a mad scientist who made this pyramid into his own museum. Huge but fitting contrast to the Luna dark aesthetic. But after that… every darkness structure was almost exactly like that? They all had random objects and statues that made them look all the same. Even when we re-entered the Luna pyramid, it just looked like Rhulk’s. idk I guess I was just hoping they would have less vibrant characteristics and more mysterious vibes. Does anybody else feel the same?


Right there with ya! I've loved pyramid stuff ever since looking at the old D1 concept art stuff back in the day. It's one of my favorite aesthetics to explore in the sense of how mysterious and ancient/grand it is with the contrast of how utilitarian things seem with the Pyramids themselves, while also still having art and statues for unknowable reasons. More recently, I've particularly enjoyed exploring how each Disciple has shaped their surroundings - Rhulk's felt like it was made to be a museum that shows both who he is and where he came from. Like some real life tombs/pyramids, it recounts the life of who resides in it. Saying all that, I kind of have to mentally retcon what I'm seeing when I walk through the Europa and Lunar pyramids during those missions where they look like Rhulk's lol. Not a knock on the folks who made and decorated those levels, I know making concepting 1-time-use assets and designs for every pyramid when there's so many is a ridiculous ask, but it still hits my mind-goblins. I am totally open, however, to the idea of the Pyramids themselves being co-opted by The Witness and said decor/architecture being remnants from the previous inhabitants.


I wish Savathun's actual plot was at the very least referenced in Witch Queen outside of fairly sloppily being written off as "all red herrings". I wish the Witness and its goals/history/plans weren't all just written off as "all red herrings and lies" for no purpose other than so the new writers could just make a bunch of new stuff up (like Witch Queen). I think Darkness's connection to conventional consciousness being shoved into "Darkness is metaphysics, Light is physics" is probably one of the most narrative breaking and poorly thought out retcons the new writers have made. Absolutely does not make sense. Year 5 did Darkness's connections to consciousness nicely I don't know what went wrong here. ​ Overall, I find it hard to be interested in the franchise when it feels like they were constantly writing off the better written and much more coherent past as "all red herrings and lies" in a really sloppy manner so they can just make up a bunch of new stuff with no real connection to the past at all. Its like post-Endgame MCU.


Rasputin and the Warmind(s). Making them sub minds kinda felt off. Also, killing him off and not making him a full Exo was disappointing. DSC was a letdown. Felt like it could have been more epic. Ahamkara. I would have liked more from them. Wish dragons could have provided some interesting story beats. The Nine. I still feel like there is more to explore with them. I think they might end up being an Exo Stranger situation. "The story is done" only to come back at some point. Dreaming city still hasn't been saved. Why? Disappointed we got rid of factions. Was hoping for another kind of Faction war. The Vex. They are time travelling, machine riding radiolaria. They feel less threatening than they should do. Tho, my current speculation is that they will be a bit more focused on after the Light/Dark saga.


Really liked factions in D1… mostly because there wasn’t much else to do on release lol. I remember grinding the shit out if dead orbit trying to get the cosmetics and then they just… disappeared until Lakshmi came back for a season to be racist. Kinda a bummer cause now humanity seems like they’re all holding hands and singing Kumbaya. I expected some more internal conflict after that whole warlord massacre phase we went through…


It's hard for me to say "unhappy" because the story is ongoing so it's never going to be finished. So things that feel unfinished or left in a bad state can be corrected later. ​ As far as story beats I wish went somewhere else... As much as I liked playing the Witch Queen in the moment, I really felt let down by her gaining the Light and forgetting all her schemes due to amnesia. I get why they needed to do it on a baseline structural level (meaning in terms of building a story that continues instead of one that ends), but it was still a major disappointment for me to have this villain built up for years only to have her forget everything... ​ I would like to understand more about Ada-1 and how she fits into Exo lore. I hope in the post Lightfall era we go and track down more of the Exodus ships and learn more about them.


Well savathun had an entire contingency plan to have us help her remember everything, which completely worked… so it’s still kinda the same old savathun


Iirc Ada’s body was made by the Black Armory founders using stolen exo designs from Braytech. How she got her mind uploaded without access to the vex milk and the darkness statue idk tho.


I preferred the darkness being about death and destruction as opposition to the light being about life and creation. How they changed darkness about consciousness isn't terrible, but I liked the idea that they had; That without darkness, life would become cancerous, and we would live in eternal suffering, however we cannot allow it to flourish for then there would be nothingness, and we had to keep our darkness powers incheck so we wouldn't become corrupted


I just want to know about the culture of House Salvation, Shadow Legion and Lucent Hive/Xivu's Horde. I want the enemies we fight to have depth.


The morality introduced in beyond light was fine, but I don’t like where they ultimately took the darkness. I’m not a huge fan of this light is no longer explicitly good and darkness is not explicitly bad theme. I liked it when the warlords were just a dark stain on lightweilder history and not some grand statement on the nature of light not being inherently harmonious. Imo it really muddied the waters for destiny to the point that the original concept for the franchise no longer feels the same. Not to mention most games and TV shows are exploring the same grey moral direction that leaves no real clarity. Everybody wants to make some grand statement for replacing darkness with light, and light for darkness. When everybody does it, it loses its intrigue as a plot device. Not to mention Bungie basically dropped the idea that the darkness is inherently corruptive. They should’ve just introduced the dark guardian idea, if you wanted to justify our uses of the darkness.


I don't like Cryptoliths. I think "brainwashing" as a device is so much more compelling when it's... well, when it's treated like it's treated in MOST of Destiny's world. Like propaganda, like philosophy, like people coming to certain conclusions based off the information they're given. Even Taking people seems to work this way, with the narrator speaking to the Taken subject in a disarming, specially tailored way. It is so, so much more interesting to me if Corruption is treated, not like "Spooky Magic That Make You Evil", but something you'd fall for because of emotional instability, because of trauma, because you don't know what else to turn to. Infinitely more relatable, because we see people in our lives fall into that all the time, and it's more engaging because of it. Miss me with the Reaper Indoctrination, I'm here for psychological abuse!


Iirc wrathborn are basically people who, under Xivu's influence, have become effectively frenzied berserkers of warfare and violence. It's strange that in recent content they have simply just become brainwashed soldiers


I don't really know if I'm being overly emotional here, but Calus' death was... not supposed to go that way, I guess? I know he was desperate because The Witness pressured him in linking the Veil, but for someone who since the exile and meeting the Nothing only wanted to be the last thing to live, to see the End, I thought it was pretty disappoint the Real Calus die in the campaign and not Calus Automaton.


all of the villains were kinda done dirty in lightfall. calus was weak asf and basically just a distraction. he didn’t even rly feel like a threat to neomuna ngl. the witness ignores everyone in lightfall an just hangs out in orbit up until the end, which was kinda a waste. xivu and eramis are no where to be found even though they should be launching an attack on the last city right alongside calus. overall lightfall felt anticlimactic and the villains never really posed a threat.


enceladus, primevals, ahamkhara, the Nine, many of the 'mysterious' antagonistic forces from around Forsaken havent been addressed significantly in favour of less interesting threats Nezerac and Eramis are nice and all but they feel like theyre retreading territory that Rhulk/Savathun had concluded in their respective stories I also dont like how Osiris has been handled in the story. He went from intellegensia with arcane knowledge and secret powers to mcguffin and sleeping beauty for almost the entirety of Beyond Light-Lightfall


So so much has dissapointed me 1. Rasputin 2. The witness 3. Eramis 4. Everything related to neomuna 5. Stasis/darkness retcon And I'm sure more that I can't exactly think of right now


There’s a long list but I’ll put down a couple of things for now. -Torobatl and most Cabal forces being wiped out off screen. So much for the Primus of All Legions. -The remaining Worm Gods doing literally nothing and not being mentioned all these years. At this point I’m worried Eir, Yul, and Ur will get killed offscreen. Maybe a snack for Xivu. -Sagira and all of the Scarlet Swarm’s leadership being killed in weblore. -The Vex becoming a plot device and only ever being used by other forces. They never really do anything on their own despite being one of the most powerful races. -Xivu Arath still not being shown in the story. She should already be playing a more active role, at this point she’s gonna get killed shortly after she shows up. -Rasputin’s character and lore being changed multiple times. Though this applies to a lot of characters I think Rasputin has been altered the most. -Why did the Traveler resurrect the Hive? Was it out of desperation because it knew the Witness was coming? This could be answered later but I wish it was answered in WQ. -What was on Enceladus? My understanding is it was the DSC but they retconned it, still think it should be answered in some way. -Why are the Nine just chilling throughout all this? Five of them think they can use the Light to become free but do nothing when the source of Light is under attack. -The Pyramid Fleet showing up and doing basically nothing until this year. I feel like this might be the biggest misstep. It basically made it so everything in the story would have to be Darkness related even when the actual fleet just chilled out. I just wish if they were gonna show up this early the fleet did something aside from vaulting stuff. -The introduction of the Witness. This is also a really big misstep, at least in my opinion. The original direction I saw the story going was that the Pyramids worked exactly like the Traveler. They would offer their power to anyone willing to take it. I thought this would culminate in a final battle against those who ascribe to the Winnower’s way of existence. Basically once we won we would prove the Gardener’s argument. Instead we get Darkness Megamind who’s character is all about saying mysterious things.


That stuff about the fleet showing up and doing nothing made sense with the lore we had about the goal this time not just being our total destruction but having the guardians, the Gardener’s final argument, enact the logic of the Winnower to bring about the Final Shape. Which would utterly and entirely disprove the Gardener’s argument. But now that’s been retconned to the Witness wanting all this shit with the Traveler and it no longer makes any sense that the Pyramids didn’t do shit until now.


4th wall breaks are stupid in almost every medium and it’s just the writers thinking they’re quirky


not to mention they destroy any sense of weight to the story ( for me at least)


Very disappointed by Shin Malphur. With how much time and story they dedicated to him in lore I was really really hopping we get to see him in game. After doing the malfeasance quest for Drifter and we saw the aftermath of his duel and hearing his voice I was really excited cause I was hopping we would face off against him Drifter made it pretty clear that Shin was coming for him and now that we were in bed with him, we were also on Shins list. I would've loved to see Shin show up in a season, not as a villain, but as an antagonist. The whole point of a season like that could've been us racing to save drifter and the other former shadows of yor. Where in the end Shin stops and agrees to side with us in the coming battle against the black fleet


The big bad being just a goofy looking dude called the Witness. I liked the Darkness as this mysterious force of nature, but I get why they made the change. Ya know give us a plausible enemy to beat and all


I would’ve preferred if the darkness wasnt a tangible being. If that makes sense? I don’t want to fight someone who “wields” the darkness, I want to fight THE darkness. Like a malevolent entity that doesn’t have form. But I’m fine with what we have


that's exactly what I'm thinking


Having neomunans going “virtual” is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen in a fantasy movie out video game.


It'd have worked if bungie bothered to actually go though with the implications rather than merely using it as an excuse to not model a bunch of Neomunan civilian NPCs. They're not humans in matrix pods teleoperating holograms in a city designed for humans, they're uploaded consciousnesses in a "city" which is basically an enormous server farm. Exo-style mind transfer, but into a virtual reality world rather than a robotic shell. Also Neomuna should've been a proper aerostat in Neptune's atmosphere rather than a city on Neptune's surface, insofar as the pressure at Neptune's surface would be completely inhospitable for Guardians or reinforced computronium, much less ordinary biological humans.


> Also Neomuna should've been a proper aerostat in Neptune's atmosphere rather than a city on Neptune's surface Do Bungie's writers even know what an Aerostat is?


The Stasis-Bearing Fallen/Enemies not being a big of a deal as Beyond Light said they were. We were told that the enemy now had access to Stasis, but after BL, there was no indication that it really mattered OUTSIDE Europa. This also applies to the Lightbearing Hive Guardians in Witch Queen. The Hive now had access to the Light. Our worst enemy. Had access. To the Light. The trailers made it seem like it was a "do or die" situation. The repercussions are going to be unimaginable. Undying Hive? They'll be unstoppable if left unchecked! Nope. They're all conveniently located in Savathun's Throne World. No impact on the Solar system like how Siva and the Taken were in D1, and those were small and inconsequential stakes compared to these ones in D2.


I've just been itching to see the things that were hinted at in the Black Armory books that smelled like Wet Earth and sounded like screeching metal, or the things Drifter saw that drained his light abilities I wanted to see a new faction by now, but we instead just got more cabal and Tormenters. Is the shadow legion really the only force that the dark fleet has?


Riven. We killed her, her soul bonded with us and every now and then she would speak to us in the Dreaming City. Nothing came by with this since. That's just crazy to me how this gets dropped as soon as it was delivered. Drifter vs Aunor, the hidden who keeps spying on us. There was a time when players could chose who to side with. Based Drifter or Snitch Vanguard. Neither narrativly nor in gameplay practice did they manage to do anything with it and kinda dropped that too. For a while though ol Drifter would call you a snitch if you sided with the Vanguard. Drifter 2: to me he's one of the most intriguing characters among lightbearers and he's been ahead of the curve almost always. We got to visit his ship once and our first contact with the egrigor was infact there, not with Glykon or the Leviathan. He's been to the 4th tomb of Nezarec which back then was merely a myth of a being. I believe he may have even come across Stasis before anyone else in this timeline during an expedition with an old crew. Though that detail may be misinterpretation. But he sure came across some paracausal being that could drain the light. The mysterious 9 see him as a key figure similar to Queen Mara in the battle of light and dark. Dude even has some mild understanding to use Taken Powers. He summoned some to fight off Cabal. And he's just being criminally underused.


Every character who showed in lightfall was made worse by it. Osiris was a grumpy old man the entire time when season of the seraph had a lot to do with him moving past that stuff. Calus was a joke and the witness didn't get as much characterization as I hoped for (but the scene of it scaring the fuck out of calus is fun), the cloudstriders and under utilized, and nimbus especially is annoying. (I'll also note it's infuriating all the transphobia that came to light from them having they/them pronouns, but that's a problem with real people not destiny). I feel like more should've happened in lightfall than what actually happened.


lightfall is too easy but i really wish we learnt something new about the witness or the traveler in a big twist akin to the "hive were tricked into becoming the hive" twist from witch queen. or that the traveler was going to bless them depending on who you ask. but it felt like everything went as you'd expect. we beat calus, we lost... something... the traveler i guess (everyone was theorising about lightfall being a big loss) and that's about it. i was really hoping caiatl would kill calus tbh. or that she'd be in the campaign more.


Dark timeline. It honestly sounds like a really bad fan fic at some points. Just sounds edgy for no reason other than “things went bad”


Fair could've left it to the imagination maybe a flashback of Elsie's or a big reveal at the end of rewritten BL with her revealing herself as Elsie and having her be seemingly vulnerable recounting it in it's prophetic end.


Having neomunans going “virtual” is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen in a fantasy movie out video game.


The original rewrite of D1’s Story.


I’m glad they didn’t cave to fan over speculation and made Nezarec simply a crazy Disciple of the Witness with unique powers so it isn’t retreading old ground


Having neomunans going “virtual” is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen in a fantasy movie or video game.


Calus. I thought the ruler who'd seen an existential threat he thought his empire could never defeat and given up, wallowing in hedonism for however long he had left and trying to make the rest of his empire join him as 'mercy' rather than sacrifice everything on more militarization in what'd inevitably be a losing battle, who got couped by militarists who disagreed, was a much more interesting character concept than his changing his mind and willingly joining the Darkness. I'd have forgiven them and considered it the perfect twist if Lightfall had revealed >!he'd been faking all along so that the Witness gave him powers and an army and replacement body which wasn't rotten from old age and hedonism, then when he found the MacGuffin paracausal Veil, he immediately used its power to attempt to backstab the Witness and take back his empire!<. But it didn't. It was Gul Dukat all over again. Writers accidentally making a villain whom viewers agreed with, then trying to 'fix' things by character assassinating them into a space!satanist.


Rasputin. I liked the idea the Traveller tried to bail and he shot it down to keep it from leaving. Also don't like how he is now all emotional and stuff I liked back in D1 the dude was just a cunt, don't really like them making him more man than machine and the shift in personality liked the Russian cunt of an AI. Don't like how they turned him a feeling type of dude liked the cold brutal AI designed for war.


[ Removed by Reddit ]


I kinda feel that. It feels like a proper relationship now that it’s been given time and more material to develop it, but I’ll admit it was kind of jarring and weird how they were suddenly lovers when they were “brothers” in previous lore to the point that they even shared a “father”.


Them being a couple was found out long before it became blatantly obvious to non-queer players. If you aren't used to looking for the signs, it's hard to see sometimes. Being queer has historically been quite dangerous, and so a lot of queer writing in the wild is coded in ways that are explicitly not obvious to people who don't know what they're looking for. ​ Both of them and Deverim were always intended to be written as queer, but execs of the past (unclear if Bungie, or Activision) weren't comfortable with it, and so it was suppressed a bit. I can't remember specifically where I found that info, but I remember it being said about Deverim specifically, and I remember someone asking on twitter or something if Osiris and Saint were a couple or not about or around the same time we went into the Forest to find Saint and it was confirmed by the writers that at least some of the stories of the past were written specifically with that coding in mind.


That is bromance taken to a new level


That is the technical definition of bromance.


The only legitimately good things (as in, they don't exist just to fix the mess of the last few years) we have gotten since Arrivals are the Clovis Bray journal, Variks' performance during BL, Caiatl as a whole and the trauma exploration of Haunted. Specific radio dialogue twice or thrice a season when we were lucky. Everything else has ranged from disappointing to a fucking joke.


So the entirety of WQ? Like I agree that sadly the radio transmissions have some of the best lines in the seasons and Haunted character development was some of my favorite out of recent seasons. But like, do you need to be so harsh?


Absolutely. WQ's story both falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny *and* doesn't deliver any pay off to anything of what Savathun had been doing prior to Beyond Light, or to years long character arcs for Mara and Eris. Destiny as a game today is better because of WQ, that's hardly a discussion. But it's story? I excuse BL's story a lot, not without reason I believe. But I can't extend that treatment to WQ in good faith. Not when Rhulk had a year between Savathun being branded a traitor and her getting the Light to blow up her Throne World. That's the level of sloppiness we are talking about. While I didn't expect Lightfall to be such an extreme disappointment, the writing was on the wall with WQ.


At least someone recognizing that WQ had a good campaign but the lore failed on every front. (excluding Collector Edition)


Sounds like you need to touch some grass instead of continually paying money for a game you don't like.


Ah yes, the Lore master right here. "You need to touch grass" as an answer to "The story isn't in a good place at all". Sounds like you have no answer to any of the criticism I brought up. It is precisely because I love Destiny and I am invested in so many elements of its universe that seeing said elements being chopped or left behind is frustrating, especially when the justification for it ranges between sloppy to nonexistent. But then again arguing with someone who doesn't understand the concept of "pay off" is bound to be as disappointing as WQ.


Oh I'm not trying to answer you. I just think maybe you should try and be less angry at things 😊 hope that clears up my comment


Way to go on a thread about things with the story we are unhappy with.


I mean, I upvoted you cuz I agreed with some points. Buuuuuuut you just want an echo chamber and can't actually create an argument other than "bungie storytelling bad, even what I like is bad" since you also immediately shat on BL after praising it. So like, just be less angry bruh, might do some good.


How is pointing out that Rhulk didn't do anything between Arrivals and WQ not making an argument as to how the story lacks coherence? How is pointing out that [this](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/to-the-witch-queen#book-regarding-stasis) Eris is nowhere to be seen in WQ not making an argument? I said that I forgive BL a lot of things (Eramis, Eris' and the Drifter's roles, Elsie's complete divorce from the main story) because I understand that large portions of BL were developed under extremely rough circumstances. But it would be foolish to not acknowledge the dip in quality even if we understand the reason. You are the one who is not creating an argument other than "Bungie writing actually good", and the lack of acknowledgement of any of my points doesn't help your point.


I'm not arguing pro or anti bungie story telling. I'm just saying maybe not be so angry in your comments. I'm not even claiming I'm a lore master like your tried to drag me earlier about. You continually swinging at arguments that aren't here also shows that maybe you should read through the lore and story again. Seems like you're not satisfied with something in your life and are angry that bungie isn't up to your standards. Maybe take a break from the game and come back to it with a fresh set of eyes.


Deep Stone Crypt was 100% the biggest letdown (aside from Lightfall obviously...) It had so much more mystery and the lore made it seem way more important - not just the factory that made exos.


I would say Rasputin and the warminds/subminds, it was cool that Rasputin wasn’t the head honcho but was part of a group of powerful planetary warminds. It was also kinda cool reading in the lore that after we released him into the system during the array mission that he was testing his new weaponry and might. D2 and warmind expansion kinda shit ok it and just went “yup there was never any other warmind stationed on mars or mercury it’s always been Rasputin and we just didn’t undercard until io lmao”


I don't really care for the Nine and their story.


Not only do I feel like Osiris’ explanation is potentially wrong in universe due to contradictions and whatnot, but I don’t vibe with the whole “darkness is consciousness and light is creation” idea. To me, the two are opposites and that should be embraced in a way that makes them neither good or evil. And not opposites in terms of two completely different things. I mean opposites in terms of two ends of a spectrum.


Stasis Fallen and Lucent Hive have been underutilized in the narrative too much. I would enjoy it more if we had them more present in the story.