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dat_db_doe

Disclaimer: I am NOT the LL in my relationship, but I think I have a decent understanding of how my wife feels so I will do my best to answer. I believe my wife is a good example of what you're looking for. We have a good relationship with lots of love and respect for one another. There is no abuse, or bad hygiene, or massive weight gain or anything like that. My wife is simply not a very sexual woman. She has told me that she has no particular sexual desires or fantasies. She never masturbates and simply doesn't think about sex. She does enjoy sex when she has it, but it's not particularly important to her and I believe that if she never had sex again, it wouldn't be a huge deal. > When you look at your partner what do you see? Hopefully she sees a man that she loves and cares about. However, I do not believe that she sees me in sexual manner. I do think she finds me attractive, but it just doesn't translate to sexual desire. > When you reject them do you see their pain? Are you oblivious to that pain or just not care? I think my wife feels bad that she doesn't care about sex like I do. A few times she has said "Sorry I'm a bad wife" > If they stop perusing do you notice? Yes. When I stopped initiating for about 9 months, my wife said it made her feel unattractive and unwanted. > Are there time where you want to initiate but it's been so long it would be too awkward so you don't Maybe. My wife does initiate every once in awhile. However, she is kinda awkward about asking and has admitted that she's deathly afraid of rejection, so it's possible there are times where she wanted to but didn't. > Are you just together for financial reasons? Social reasons? Cultural norms? No, I believe my wife would say that she's with me because she's happy with the relationship. Since sex isn't important to her, the fact that we don't have much sex is not much of a negative, if at all. > When you don't have intimacy, when one partner is constantly rejecting the other, how do you build that pair bond? I imagine my wife would say that we DO have intimacy and we do all sorts of things to build our pair bond - date nights, long walks with our dogs, making each other laugh, holding hands, doing volunteer work together. To her, non-sexual intimacy is far more important than sexual intimacy.


BakerLovePie

I really appreciate your answer thank you. Looking forward to more.


KnottySexAcct

Holy shit. I could have written 90% of that. Weight gain on both sides. The lack of sex does not bother her at all. Whenever I used to initiate, she would stop me. If I started a discussion, she would say “I’m such a bad wife. I don’t know why you don’t leave.” Eventually I just quit asking. Started working on me.


thefeistypineapple

I feel like this also explains my marriage. We have been DB for 4 years (been together for 10). We have an age difference and my husband was quite experienced prior to meeting me. He never thought he would get married but wanted to marry me, who wasn’t experienced at all. Its not that I want sex every single day. I would be happy once every week, even once every 2. But he prefers non-sexual intimacy. Not only that, he doesn’t handle stress well (severe childhood trauma) and tends to take on more than he should. I can honestly say our relationship isn’t bad and there is affection. But it’s hard being with someone I know loves me but won’t touch me in that way.


Designer-Bake

How are you still okay with continuing in the relationship? Is it also that you don’t mind not having sex?


thefeistypineapple

He agreed to therapy. Unfortunately, the one recommended to us wasn’t specialized in Sex Therapy like we thought (went through employment EAP). But it’s much deeper than that. Our relationship has always been a struggle because we are very different. Different backgrounds, childhood upbringing, familial relationships-we are opposites in most things but in values we are on page. I’ve seen him try and meet my needs. Whether it’s taking marriage classes or learning better ways of communication. But lately, I’m wanting out. I’m tired of all the work it’s taken. I want a healthy marriage, one that isn’t a struggle every step of the way. I’m exhausted. That doesn’t mean I don’t love him because I do. I truly do love him and when I see him, my heart smiles. He’s a good man but I just don’t want to struggle anymore.


Designer-Bake

I’m really sorry:/ that sounds heart wrenching, and difficult to be going through.. I hope You make the better decision for YOURSELF!❤️


thefeistypineapple

My fear is that I’ll regret it, that I’ll end up alone. I don’t want to be single. I enjoy marriage and being in a partnership. The thought of dating scares me. It’s just really hard right now.


blindfarg

☝🏻This. Just explained my marriage as well.


zerozark

Isnt it really weird that she is afraid of being rejected by you, though?


dat_db_doe

I mean, it's not strictly logical, since I've never rejected her ever in over 9 years, but emotions are often based on feelings and not logic.


zerozark

But in that case, therapy or couple therapy wouldnt improve your sex life, since she could get over that insecurity? (Especially given what you just said here). I am not like "people that dont have much sex needs therapy", I dont have any sexual issues and yet therapy is the one thing I would never let go of right now lol. I just think it would be a fairly easy step to take that could improve your lives a bit (her also, since she likes to have sex with you).


Aprig34

I too feel like I could have written this word for word. How do you cope?


FrustratedLeader

Wow this could be my wife too , we have a great relationship , she just does not value sex in any way at all.


loivissia

I am the LL, I love my Husband very much. He is the only person I want to be with in that way. For me it's part medications and part not knowing how to initiate properly. These are things I am working on. There are times when I honestly dont realize how long it's been, to me it was just a few days ago in reality it was quite awhile ago. When this does happen I feel horrid, guilty, and ashamed. When we do have sex it is fantastic and I have no complaints it's just that I very rarely have the urge to do it so dont really think about it. I do try to really hard to be aware of it.


skyscan1

If you haven't read up on spontaneous libido versus responsive libido I encourage you to look it up. My wife and I had a long deadbedroom because my wife thought that we should only have sex when she had the desire. What we have learned is that she really enjoys the sex we have and if we just go ahead and start foreplay she will get in the mood. She has a responsive libido and it sounds like you do too. My wife could go a long period and also think that we had sex last week when it would be over a month ago. Now we have frequent sex because she knows that she will enjoy it if she doesn't stop the getting started. I hope that didn't offend and possibly helps you. Responsive libido is completely normal.


Zouzout

That realization worked so well for us! When ever he initiates I always say ok now because even if it the farthest thing from my mind, I always get into it pretty soon after the clothes come off! I just let my body get ready for it and it's always better than the dishes I was gonna do! It sounds crazy but it works!


skyscan1

Awesome! I'm so glad that you've realized this.


Zouzout

It takes wanting to be in a close relationship with your spouse. I must admit I had to put the parameter of not in the morning, because of my digestive issues, but the afternoon is game on. It feels like giving in for a moment but quickly turns into yeah, I'm getting some too!


loivissia

Thank you, my Husband and I will research that.


skyscan1

My wife thought something was wrong with her and it made her feel much better when she realized that her responsive libido was normal. I do things like send her a sexy text during the day or remind her of our last sexy time together just to get her mind to think about sex. She doesn't feel pressured like she used to and understands that if we get started that she will enjoy it.


j_reinegade

I agree with the libido situation described for you. Sounds pretty textbook.


CatzAndStatz

I second his suggestion


Blob19

This is the reason our db spell stopped. I thought I was LL. But after reading about responsive libido our sex life has picked up a lot again. I’m so thankful for this sub.


skyscan1

I'm very glad that you found the help you needed here. And thank you.


Xcellerant

Wow, understanding this may have just saved our dead bedroom of 12 years! Thanks very much!


skyscan1

I'm very glad that something I commented might help you. This realization has helped me understand our deadbedroom and how our recovery could continue into the future.


[deleted]

My SO is like you, and scheduling has been a big help for us if you haven’t tried that yet!


JumpinJackCilitBang

Apart from the medications bit this could be my Mrs and me. The book referred to in other posts is 'Come As You Are' by Emily Nagoski. It's kind of a grab bag but has some great knowledge and insights. My Mrs was bored to tears, of course...


mamaofirlr

It’s like going to the gym, you don’t want to go but when you do, you don’t regret it.


minosandmedusa

I'm confused. It sounds like you just don't initiate. What about your husband? Does he initiate? When he does, do you reject him? Confused how this would be a dead bedroom.


loivissia

I thought the question was for LL's so I responded. Yes my Husband does initiate and I try to, alot of the time I do turn him down and it's something we are working on. This sub has helped us both understand each other more.


minosandmedusa

Sorry my question was a tangent, certainly not questioning why you would respond. Your answer is interesting to me, and I wanted to know more, that's all. Thanks for humoring me.


DAFUQ404

I can only really answer the one question you asked. We didn't have (physical) intimacy because we didn't have (emotional) intimacy. Telling your partner a funny story that happened at work for him to fully and completely ignore your existence is soul crushing. Coming to him after a very difficult month and seeking comfort and attention, just to have him look at you and then turn the tv on and ignore you is soul crushing. I couldn't get his attention if I begged. But if I walked by with a towel on, I couldn't get him to leave me alone. His eyes and his whole face would light up when he caught me changing. He became a whole different person. But there was no way in hell I could get a reaction or attention from him if it wasn't sex-related. If it wasn't to do with sex, paying any attention to me was pointless to him. My purpose was sex. No wonder I didn't want to have sex with him. We talk about LLs like they're monsters. What about the partner a who can't give their lovers the time of day when it comes to emotional intimacy? Being rejected that way is soul crushing too.


MyChiisSleeping

True. It can feel as if you are only good for sex for your HL if there’s never any kind of non-sexual intimacy. I definitely don’t know any LLs that would be okay with that.


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DAFUQ404

I definitely understand where you're coming from. I know my partner feels some of those feelings, and tries to leave space for us to have non sexual intimacy. But for me, it was like this from day one. Or, date 3 I guess. We'd had some great dates and I invited him over to have some time so we could talk and get to know each other in a non-public setting. Maybe even make out or whatever. But he pressured me to have sex that night. I continued to brush him off of me and push him away, but eventually I gave in... and it's been like that ever since. We've never talked much. He's not even sure what that means. I try to talk and he thinks it's nonsense and just tries to have sex with me. He often jokes and tells me he "doesn't have feelings", he "has muscles" I believe him when he tells me that he doesn't understand what emotional intimacy is.


[deleted]

Why are you with this person?


ManOfMysteri0

Wonder if he did listen about your day if you would have reacted the same way...


DAFUQ404

I technically used to be a sex worker (cams) I love sex. I have a long sexual track record. But having sex with someone who doesn't show that they see your value beyond it is hard.


JosephSeedWasRight

To me, you do not get to have intimacy with me if you do not put out. Putting out comes forever first, or we are done.


DAFUQ404

I was putting out like there was no tomorrow and still not getting emotional intimacy. I stopped having sex because it became clear there was nothing in it for me. Also, your uncompromising attitude sounds like you probably have had a lot of relationship problems. A relationship isn't just about you, and a lot of women have a hard time becoming aroused if they don't feel emotional intimacy. You're literally working against nature without it. Humans are one of thousands of species that display a behaviour called "female choice" where the females choose the mate, and the males get chosen (Or not.) And emotional intimacy is one of the traits we are literally wired to seek.


JosephSeedWasRight

I agree with you. I have ended relationships because I am not fond of that attitude. I like women that see sex as an end in itself, and I gladly have one now. But it was not the case before. I will not follow the absurd amount of rules in a monogamic relationship without **any** reward. I do it all for the sex. Take out the sex, I take out my part. Tit-for-that.


PrincessofPatriarchy

I think a lot of HL people underestimate how harmful it is to have unwanted intercourse. I am sure many LL partners know that the situation is frustrating for their partner but the reality is there is no solution in some situations that does not require one person to be harmed. Either the HL person goes without or the LL partner signs up to have duty sex for the rest of their life. Neither of these is a very pleasant option but the ease in which HL people suggest their partners should just grit their teeth and get through it in order to make them happy is no different than the ease some LL partners think the HL should just suck it io and take care of their needs some other way. The long term effects of having unwanted duty sex include trauma and the development of sexual aversion not to mention basic things like discomfort or painful sex when not aroused. Its also asinine to call it a "bonding experience" if one person clearly does not enjoy what is happening. Having sex with an unhappy but complacent partner isn't bonding, it's just using another human as a masturbatory device. If anything it is likely to make the LL person feel less close to their partner because their feelings are being disregarded. There are some compromises people can make to keep their partner happy. Putting the knives face down in the dishwasher. Watching the bachelor on Monday night. Hosting poker night once a month. Regular unwanted intercourse is not a reasonable compromise. Neither is being celibate forever against your will, which is why neither HL or LL partners find it particularly easy to just suck it up to make their partner happy. The question can just as easily be turned back. "Don't you see how unhappy it makes your partner when you ask for sex?" "Don't you see how much pressure your expectations put on them?" "Can't you see what you are doing to them?" That particular issue cuts both ways. And if HL people find it difficult to just not have sex in order to make their partner happy it should be easy to see that LL people find it hard to have sex they don't like to make someone else happy too. In fact that is a much more physically demanding expectation. As for why LL partners stay, I'm sure it's not largely different from why HL partners do.


vividink0844

I absolutely agree that NO ONE should be made or forced to have sex when they don't want to. Ever, for any reason. In that same vein, as a HL woman who is still suffering horribly, at a mental health level, from the severe neglect and purposeful withholding of ALL forms of affection by the hands of my LL ex-husband, I will say this - being purposefully denied all forms of romantic love and communication did more damage to me mentally than growing up for 19 years with my abusive narcissistic father did. I've lived in two toxic households in my life (I guess it's no surprise I didn't pick a winner of a first husband), and when you are a person who likes to receive and express love physically, through cuddling, kissing, affection, sex, holding each other, etc., there's no greater personal pain I've ever experienced (as far as internal conflict), than this "bait and switch". I think men in particular may not know how to verbalize the pain of being the rejected HL, especially without being attacked by LL's, who accuse them of wanting to "force their partners". That's not what they want at all. What they want, what they desperately want to magically appear is the sex positive person you likely were at one time, the lover who couldn't get enough of his touch. The woman who arched under his tongue, shook from pleasure at his actions. He wants that intense bond again that can ONLY come from sexual activity (literally, at a chemical level, playing Yahtzee together isn't going to cut it), he wants YOU to want that again. No man really wants a dead starfish underneath him, just like no woman wants pity sex from her man. We know the difference and it makes you want to fucking die on the inside when you realize that is what's happening. It is a type of rejection that I don't think ever quite leaves you, especially if you had a long DB. I think it leaves a significant psychological scar on the HL, because essentially it is the HL who is being told the entire time how "wrong" their desires are, in one way or another, even if it's just covertly. Their soul and body's most inner bonding need is denied over and over and over - no HL leaves that unscathed, even if they manage to leave. I think it is something that always haunts them, something they always fear will happen again. As an HL woman, I know it's something I fear horribly and it continues to affect me in ways that I never expected, even in my current relationship. That extreme pain from the DB can be carried with you, and I think if you're a HSP like myself, you're even more susceptible to needing counseling after having experienced a DB, due to the trauma of having both your emotional and physical needs denied for so long (this doesn't mean lack of sex persay, but the lack of physical touch at all, which is how bad my DB had gotten, my ex refused to even kiss me at the end, as he was secretly having an affair, unbeknownst to me).


Chi_Baby

Exactly what I was going to say... a LOT of the time, the LL did used to enjoy sex w their partner, then suddenly, or not suddenly, decided they didn’t want/like sex anymore and decided to totally change the relationship dynamics and hope the other partner is okay with it. Rarely does the HL partner suddenly come up with a libido that wasn’t there all along, and most likely accepted or embraced at one point in the relationship. I don’t think anyone would agree to a relationship if they knew that sex that once was existent, would randomly be off the table at some point in the relationship. Or, if a HL person marries an ultra LL person and sex was never much on the table, they shouldn’t be trying to convert or change their partner, that seems weird to me.


nsfwacct3728

Yeah im saving this entire comment thread...


ManOfMysteri0

X2


Life_Commercial_6580

Completely agree. It’s the bait and switch that feels so upsetting . I’m female and I don’t think I’m particularly HL, but almost right after the wedding my H stopped sex but also all cuddling, holding etc. Even kissing is with pursed lips . I tried to ask, not for sex, but to hold each other . Except he just sits there and I have to be the one to hold him and his body language shows he can’t wait for that ordeal to be over too. I haven’t had sex since 2018. He could make a tiny bit of an effort to bring some physical affection in the bedroom, even the tamest embrace. Making him do it isn’t satisfying so I’m not asking for that either anymore. I won’t leave because I’m 53 and I had great sex in my first marriage . I love my husband and we have a nice life together, get along very well, albeit sexlessly. I figured 20 years of great sex plus about 4 of ok sex with the current husband is ok for this lifetime. Maybe I’ll have sex again in the next life lol When I was married to the first husband , I have never understood what people were talking about when they said that married sex isn’t good or married people don’t have sex. We only had sex once a week but it was really good and didn’t decrease in intensity . In that marriage I always thought we would already be divorced if it wasn’t for the sex. Outside sex , physical affection was also always really good. I was getting foot massages and back massages every day and we were always holding and spooning each other , again, every evening and every morning . We did eventually get divorced and continued to have sex for 3 years after. Talk about a huge difference in that area. Second husband is a much better man and human being, kinder , same values , but really has issues with intimacy that he didn’t reveal before we married .


LoggerheadedDoctor

>decided they didn’t want/like sex anymore Decided? I am curious about your word choice. For many (most?) of us, it's certainly not a choice. I think it shows struggles to understand the spectrum of reasons for being LL.


vividink0844

I think it's more of the way HLs see it like a light switch. One day they have a partner who wants a sexual, romantic relationship. Then one day, usually after years together and forming a deeply attached bond (usually with marriage and sometimes kids involved), the switch flips. Flick. And it's over. You say that HLs need to understand LL's, and I agree, but unfortunately, in real life, a lot of LL partners don't really give their partners reasons for their sudden loss of libido. They may not know the reason themselves, or if they do, they don't feel like fixing it and telling their partner. This would require effort and actively working on the issue. It's the lack of effort and lack of caring about the HLs feelings that is erroneous here to so many HLs. It is hurtful that our pain seems so insignificant to our partners, that it's a perfectly fine price to pay. Like I've said many times before, no one has to participate in any sexual activity that they don't want to do. But you also have ZERO rights to trap another human being into a bait and switch style agreement, and expect them to stay by making them feel guilty for their own natural and perfectly NORMAL emotional and physical needs. If the LL refuses to budge at all, and maintains the idea that "sex shouldn't be necessary", then they should not be surprised when divorce papers are served. In that same vein, the LL can go find a partner that better suits their lower or absent sexual needs. If indeed that is the truly issue, and it's not a control mechanism, as it is in some HL and LL dynamics. There's a lot to ponder there.


DAFUQ404

Thank you for your reply. Lots of people need to read this.


cytomome

So much this.


throwawaypolysad

I'm a curious lurker here. I'm not currently in a dead bedroom situation, but I've been there before - on both sides. The thing is, I think, that in every relationship there will be unbalances. Someone will always desire something more than the other at any given time. It could be sex or something else. There will always be a pursuer and a distancer on some topic and on some level. And things (and positions) shift and change throughout life. Still, as you pointed out, this tends to be a terribly painful situation for both parts. Your analysis is interesting. I'm interested also in your perspective on where to go from there, once this dynamic is established? Is there any way other than leaving? Opening the relationship? An open relationship might relief someone's general need for sex, but it won't necessarily address their need within that particular relationship (I'm polyamorous and have faced a terrible dead bedroom that almost ended a long term relationship). How to find balance again when this hits, in a way that respects everyone's bodily autonomies, consent and boundaries, in other words, without a sense of entitlement?


Fridaynighter40

Wow, thanks for the perspective on LL partners.


Carl_AR

Wow. One of the most constructive threads here. So much openness. I’ve been married 29 years(!) and have struggled around the last 10 with nearly db. Only reason we’re not officially db is because I haven’t given up. On a scale from 1-10 her libido is about a 1. Hygiene good. Never pushed hard for my desire to ‘rule’. No nympho but intimacy is important to me. She’s told me several times she could go the rest of our marriage with no sex. It hurts. I’ve done it all. Stopped initiating. Tried scheduling (boooring). Romantic weekends, couples retreats, even some new age kamasutra type shit that goes totally against both of our belief systems. 12 weeks of sex therapy last year with a lousy therapist who ended the sessions with talking about how overrated sex is. Anyhow, we’ve made some baby steps forward. She is a little more aware of my pain, and I’m more attuned with reality. She enjoys sex when we have it, but it can’t be too often and pretty much on her terms which means loong massages/ foreplay. Once again, our bedroom is not completely dead so compared to many here I should shut up and be happy. Sorry for my rant.


bluebluegirl513

I've been the LL in my relationship previously. It does hurt to reject your partner, even if they don't seem in pain. It does feel awkward to try to initiate later. For me, I loved everything in the relationship. I just didn't want sex. And it did eventually bother me and get to me. I know a lot had to do with past trauma and medications, but still. My partner was extremely patient. I would cry sometimes because I felt like I was hurting him. Even force myself to have sex, which can be painful for a woman if not able to get properly aroused. A LL partner can still be in love. Not just together for finances or children or anything like that. They don't always want to hurt or manipulate the other person. Not everyone's way of showing and experiencing love is through sex.


anotherdamnloser

I’m no LL but my husband has many issues - his meds and age, then he was out of shape. He’s better now but I also think he finds me unattractive and has fallen out of love with me. Also he’s a porn addict so I think I just can’t do it for him anymore.


Designer-Bake

Are you considering divorce? Not asking as a troll question, but like, where are you at?


anotherdamnloser

On the fence. I’m not ready to process some things emotionally and I need to clear my head. There’s a support group nearby and I’m considering some counseling. There financial things to deal with. I just don’t know I’m overwhelmed.


Designer-Bake

I wish the best for You friend, and peace of mind.


creamerfam5

A lot of my LL was from relationship dissatisfaction. Which I constantly brought up. So these questions: > When you reject them do you see their pain? Are you oblivious to that pain or just not care? I could've asked the same about him. Did he not care how much his distance hurt me? How much it drove a wedge between us? How much carrying the weight of adulting for both of us was killing me? When you tell them what is wrong in the relationship and they do nothing about it you feel distant and less loved. Sounds familiar, right? > Are you just together for financial reasons? Social reasons? Cultural norms? Just easier to stay than to make a change? I did entertain divorce for a period when my boys were young. I felt like if I have to be a single mother I might as well be single. It would have forced him to get a full-time job. But then I would have needed to pay for daycare. It honestly didn't make financial sense, so I dropped the idea. > Is it a matter of one or both gaining a bunch of weight or the 20 years and 4 kids make your partner unattractive? It's not the weight, it's the behavior. And it's not the kids, it's the struggles with taking care of infants and the difficulty coming together on what it means to be a parent and how you both fit into those new roles that causes dissatisfaction in the marriage. And the adjustment to your sense of self. It's not an easy time, and having a bunch of tension around sex doesn't make it any easier. > When you don't have intimacy, when one partner is constantly rejecting the other, how do you build that pair bond? You bond by getting through all that shit as a stronger and more unified couple (which is eventually what happened to us.) You bond by building a life together. You bond by achieving shared goals, making memories and sharing experiences together. You are intimate when you share a willingness to know and be known by your spouse. But that takes tolerance for the possibility that they may not reflect back the image of yourself that you want to see. Sure, sex can be a big part of intimacy and it can lead to bonding. But for many that's not the main way they feel those things.


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creamerfam5

Good lord, woman do you still do all that?


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minosandmedusa

>I value the vows that I made It actually breaks my heart that people stay in relationships for this reason.


creamerfam5

All work and no foreplay? I'm surprised you can do twice a week. I was in a similar place as you. I wrote a post about it if you're interested. https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/comments/hgg8y6/how_i_overcame_resentment_as_the_ll_weeding_my/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


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creamerfam5

So awesome! Sounds more like gift sex rather than duty sex, which can be beautiful sometimes.


ManOfMysteri0

So he can't make $ to your satisfaction, then when he works longer hours to please you, you hate that too?


Supersneakystoppers

Working longer hours doesn’t please me. Part of the downside of being a freelancer is that ‘working’ doesn’t always equal money, I have been financially propping him up for at least the last two years. I would rather him use part of his time to contribute in other equally important ways to the household. Covid basically decimated his whole industry though so he’s had to make some hard choices. We are actually better off financially now than we were when he was ‘working’ full time.


MyChiisSleeping

This feels very familiar. It’s almost as if you’re a caretaker, not a partner.


ManOfMysteri0

And if he met your expectations in every other way that you listed... would it be enough. It seems you resent him for following his dreams, so would he need to give that up to earn your respect?


Supersneakystoppers

I resent him ‘following his dreams’ at the detriment of his family. I resent him coercing me into having a child I said I wasn’t ready for and then when it became obvious that his manner of business was no longer sufficient to pay the bills, sticking his head in the sand and leaving me to figure it out alone. I resent that he is not an equally contributing partner in our relationship. That resentment is something I am working through in therapy because I’ve had to accept that he will not change. He will not accept that after over 25 years his big break is likely not just around the corner so I have to be the one to secure my families financial future. He’s so talented and it’s heartbreaking to me to see him waste that talent on an industry that prides itself on people willing to work for free to follow the ‘dream’.


minosandmedusa

>It honestly didn't make financial sense, so I dropped the idea. Wow, that's an extremely casual way to talk about deciding not to get divorced.


creamerfam5

Its sounds pretty glib, but at the time I felt pretty glib about my situation. An 18 month old, a 2 month old, working full-time to his 10 hours a week while he acted like a babysitter instead of a parent. My mom was trying to influence me to divorce but for her own selfish reasons. When I realized there were no easy remedies for my situation it was a really low point. But, that low point was the starting place for relationship recovery. I choose to own that choice to stay. I had hard questions to face: is there still love there (there was), can I do my best and make a life together that's meaningful (I could.) So it wasn't the cold calculated financial only decision my original comment made it out to be.


minosandmedusa

Having two under two at home certainly makes things difficult and I wouldn’t really consider divorce at that time unless things were really bad (abusive). Pretty natural time for a dead bedroom too, I’ve been there. Warning, probably TMI, but potentially funny: when I had two kids under two, I ejaculated so infrequently it was coagulated when I did.


couldhaveprevented

I'm the (suspected?) LL. I really would love to have sex more often but for some reason...I get anxious. We are very intimate in every other way. Always touching, talking (even sexually), showers together, sleep in the same bed, everything. I just really, really struggle with sex. I didn't use to struggle, I believe perhaps my birth control began this downfall. Or maybe it's my insecurities about him being much more experienced than I am. I'm 22F, he's 24M. We are very happily married and have been living together since I was 18 basically. The past year sex has been painful. I feel...unimaginable dread when I reject him. I think he is extremely attractive, like stunning. I havent been able to relax during sex at all. And it's really difficult for me to communicate it because I feel very sad that I'm so inexperienced. Him and I know my kinks and stuff but still. It's really easy for me to not have sex. I don't know why. I day dream about it often but I just dont feel a need to have sex. I suffer from really severe depression and anxiety, along with a ridiculously demanding job. Maybe it's just a combination. I'd love to have painless, amazing sex. But I dont have to have it. I initiate sometimes but I feel awkward. I don't truly know what I'm doing and I feel embarrassed. I feel like I'm not the best partner he's had and I feel awful for him. It must suck to be him. I try and make up for this in other ways like watching his favorite show, video games, cooking food he loves, massages. But I know it's not the same. I am currently looking into sex therapy.


myexsparamour

>The past year sex has been painful. Mystery solved. Of course you don't want sex - it's painful! Hardly anyone wants sex that's painful. I hope you'll stop forcing yourself to have sex that hurts. It only makes this problem more difficult to overcome.


AmateurSoapOperaStar

Birth control can inhibit libido. Try having sex while you're taking the inactive pills. If period sex isn't your husband's thing, try just after your period finishes, before the birth control has a chance to accumulate in your body. And of course, as others have recommended, try some pelvic floor relaxation techniques.


loivissia

Have you talked to your Doctor about the pain?


[deleted]

So psychotherapy and physical therapy for pelvic floor relaxation therapy is what is needed for you and your partner to have great sex-life. Have you started on the two?


myexsparamour

This is not necessarily the case. Lots of women find sex painful if they do it when they're not sexually aroused.


[deleted]

Well yes and what do you think is often a barrier to sexual arousal?


myexsparamour

Relationship problems, recent conflicts, resentment, other negative emotions (anxiety, anger, sadness, disgust), bad foreplay, no foreplay, body image issues, lack of respect, poor boundaries.... the potential list is infinite.


[deleted]

And what do you think helps that? Answer: psychotherapy, couples counseling, and two willing people who want to make things work.


myexsparamour

Right. Not having more painful sex. Continuing to have painful sex only makes the problem worse and harder to solve. Also, assuming it's a medical problem and that a doctor or physiotherapist will be able to fix the issue is often part of the problem because it reflects a refusal to address the real problems by blaming some defect in the person in pain.


[deleted]

That's what the pelvic floor physical therapy is for. That is how you treat vaginismus which is the common cause of painful sex outside of lubrication issues. I'm not blaming anyone, just pointing out the common causes for sexual dysfunction and solutions to dealing with painful sex. It's crazy that no one is suggesting seeing a medical provider for common causes of painful sex. Edit: are you suggesting she not see a medical expert? Because it would be the most logical thing to do in the case of painful sex. Kind of weird not to go there first.


myexsparamour

The first thing to do is stop doing the painful sex. Then, sure, see a medical professional to find out if it's a medical issue. But in most cases it won't be and will have to be solved by improving the sex and/or the relationship.


[deleted]

Well duh, why would anyone that has an ounce of empathy subject their partner to painful sex without stopping to see a medical provider. Vaginismus has to be ruled out and honestly pelvic floor relaxation therapy will benefit regardless. Then a therapist can help with sex and likely recommend sensate therapy. Recommending to "improve sex and/or the relationship" really doesn't add much to the conversation and the recommendations of couples counseling along with individual counseling + physical therapy would be the first steps for a situation where sex is painful. I could always ask my OB/GYN wife about painful sex but shes going to tell me the same thing I'm telling you now.


Sweet_other_yyyy

Stop making it all about you. I saw someone who didn't see me. He was in love with a pretty picture in his head. I was a pretty object to him. He thought that was how marriage worked. I was there to fill his needs and wants. I saw someone who leaned on me so heavily to feel loved that I lost desire for anything. I saw someone who didn't know how to fill his need for touch or connection himself. I saw someone who thought my body was for him. I saw someone who didn't listen, who stopped bothering to build our connection and then was shocked, angry, and hurt when I didn't want sex. I saw someone who scared me. Fear kills desire. How can I be vulnerable with someone who dismisses my concerns then tells me I have nice tits. I didn't see pain. I saw danger.


ManOfMysteri0

I don't see how someone can "fill a need for touch or connection" by themselves without cheating.


Sweet_other_yyyy

Then you are leaning too heavily on your partner.


roke079804

Who else are you supposed to go to when you have a need for touch and connection if not your partner? Sorry I'm just wondering what you mean by this statement. I know your partner can't always be there (especially if they're LL) and HL's need to learn "self-soothing" techniques (for lack of a better term) but if you want to touch and connect with a person is your SO not the only one you can go to for most people? I'm sure I'm looking at this from a more HL POV but I'm having a hard time understanding how that is "leaning too heavily on your partner"


Solar_kitty

1) When you look at your partner what do you see? A selfish man-child that can’t/won’t do anything around the house (with or without being asked) because it just needs to be done. Someone who is exclusively dependent on me to fulfill every need and desire without ever taking responsibility to find that himself or foster friendships with other men (there lots of women friends though because “I just don’t get along with other men” 🙄. Ok Mr. Niceguy. 2) When you reject them do you see their pain? Yes 3) Are you oblivious to that pain or just not care? Stopped caring because my needs were not being met either. But everything was *my* fault. It was *always* because I “wouldn’t give him sex”. And sex was never for me, or for both of us-it was always about him and had to be exactly how he wanted it. Forgive me if I wanted to mix it up a bit 🙄 4) If they stop perusing do you notice? Yep. What a relief. Except only for so long. Because the sulking and whining and general childish bad behaviour is about to start 5) Are there time where you want to initiate but it's been so long it would be too awkward so you don't? Sometimes I’d hesitate but 9 times out of 10 would do it anyway cause I figured I didn’t want to waste the feeling of wanting to do it. 6) Are you just together for financial reasons? Probably-I was the breadwinner and did everything else so why would he upset the Apple cart? Seriously though, despite that, yes. We lived in a high COL area and it’s almost impossible to live on your own. 7)Social reasons? Kinda. He knew his family would judge him harshly for leaving that’s why I had to do it in the end. 8) Cultural norms? No 9) Just easier to stay than to make a change? Partly 10) Is it a matter of one or both gaining a bunch of weight or the 20 years and 4 kids make your partner unattractive? No. I did gain weight during pregnancy obviously but was always more fit and toned than him. He always had a bit of a belly and it did swell a little more here and here but he was still active too. We both looked about the same when we split as when we got together with some ups and downs in between. There were hurt feelings though from him calling me a dyke when I cut my hair short (I had short hair when we met and got together), telling me I’m too masculine (I workout a lot and am half German so...that gymnast figure), and how he berated me for being too aggressive during sex. 11) When you don't have intimacy, when one partner is constantly rejecting the other, how do you build that pair bond? You don’t; you break it. But with the man-child behaviour, I couldn’t look past it (*again*) to have intimacy. My needs were never looked after either so 🤷🏼‍♀️ Currently with the absolute love of my life. Sex 2x/day to every other day minimum if we’re both tired/not feeling well. He is a man. He does all the typical “blue” jobs and doesn’t mind also doing the “pink” jobs. We complement each other. He meets my needs, easily. I meet his. He is insanely attractive. He treats me with kindness and respect and makes me feel cherished and loved all day every day without even trying....it’s the little things he does. I would do anything for him. The sex is out of this world. And we laugh about my ex being miserable and calling me LL and blaming everything on me. Including shaming me for sex acts I wanted to try. I read NMMNG out of curiosity and for personal growth. It’s me ex to a T. I almost wanted to tell him that and hope that he’s doing the exercises in the book but I know that’ll only end up with expletives and more blame so I didn’t bother. I hope he works it out. I sure have.


myexsparamour

> When you look at your partner what do you see? When you reject them do you see their pain? Are you oblivious to that pain or just not care? If they stop perusing do you notice? When you pressure your partner to have sex that they don't want, do you see their pain? Do you see how devalued and disconnected they feel? If they go through with sex that they don't want, do you see their suffering? Or do you take their "starfishing" as a personal affront and think only about how they're ruining your fun? Sex that only one person wants does not build a pair bond.


QueenToeBeans

Im HL, and I do agree with you. I don’t pressure my LL partner for sex: ever. At all. I feel like doing that would be sexual harassment, and I wouldn’t want that from any man, including one I was married to. However, beyond his lack of desire for me, his avoidance of intimacy or affection beyond a few scattered touches hurts me every day. Lack of attention, affectionate words, and touch does not build a pair bond, either. I swear, if he gave me kind words and time, a few spontaneous kisses and hugs and maybe returned a few of the million backrubs I gave him, sex wouldn’t feel like such a sacrifice. He is not cruel (although he knows how to cut with his words), never hits me or intimidates me, doesn’t mind a few extra pounds, contributes the higher amount financially, does the dishes and cleans the cat boxes. He’s a good man, and he swears he loves me (whenever I ask.) I know he has medical reasons for being LL, but his lack of attention makes me feel invisible/unloved. It’s a two way street. HL can hurt LL, and LL can hurt HL. I do my best not to hurt my LL husband. Why can’t he do his best not to hurt me?


myexsparamour

Honestly, this relationship doesn't sound very satisfying. Do you think you'd be happier on your own?


[deleted]

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myexsparamour

Reversing the question is one of the best ways to understand another person's perspective. I try to always do this as a thought experiment when I wonder about someone else's behaviour.


Lusterkx2

You are right. Which is the right thing to do. Of course it’s always good to understand both side. The giver and the taker. It’s just this is the forever loop holes of HL and LL. Someone is victim. No one ever gets to the point. I think we all got to accept the fact this is endless. Also apologize for calling you a douche. My LL wife did the reverse question on me and we couldn’t get to the bottom of the issue and it frustrated me. Good insight


myexsparamour

That's okay. :) > My LL wife did the reverse question on me and we couldn’t get to the bottom of the issue and it frustrated me. So you were never able to understand why she doesn't want sex, and she couldn't understand why you do want it? I can see how that would be frustrating. What if you asked her if anything could change to make sex more appealing to her?


[deleted]

Gotta say it. What kind of opinion of HL persuer do you have to think this wasn't one of the first things to ask? I am a very ignorant man, and maybe people just don't ask this, but it would blow my mind if a HL partner in a DB didn't ask what he could do to make it better.


myexsparamour

Whenever I read about The Talk, the most common focus is the HL's need for more sex, not on the reasons the LL doesn't want to have sex.


ellingtonlasoo

If LL are avoiding sex because their partner has bad hygiene then for god sake have that conversation. I've been there, it's awkward and you don't want them to feel embarrassed, but honestly you'll be doing everyone a favour


vividink0844

I really want to know this as well, God knows I do. I want to know how they are completely unaffected by the immense pain they cause their partners, the soul crushing, slow death that happens right in front of them. It's the most intimate rejection possible by the person who claimed to love you until death do you part..... and they don't even "want you". It eats you alive until every cell in your body feels unloved, unwanted, disgusting, ugly, and completely hopeless and lost. At one point, my depression was so bad (combined with other traumatic events in my life at the time), that I honestly didn't think I'd live much longer anyway. I didn't plan to commit suicide, but I didn't see how a person could survive living in so much pain and grief (I had lost my mother to cancer around this time, she was only 45). Being a HL woman, there was really no one who could relate to my pain, which only made me feel more alienated, ugly and disgusting. There are no words in existence that can describe the pain that my ex-husband caused me during those years of neglect and sexual abandonment.


BakerLovePie

Thank you for this. Wow that hit me in the feels for sure. Sorry about your mom. What was the last straw that made you leave the DB? For me it wasn't a spouse but someone I wanted to spend forever with. 6 months into my DB I was looking forward to my next deployment because if I was to be alone I'd rather be by myself. Being alone with your forever exclusive partner was soul crushing.


vividink0844

Well, ironically my ex-husband made the choice for me. We had been together since I was 16 y/o, so for 11 years by that time. I think he thought he wanted monogamy, but in the end he is honestly just too self centered to be an even remotely decent partner. He literally took every dime of what we had and left me for a 21 year old woman he met. I found out he had been cheating on me with her for about 2 years by that time (about as long as our DB had been going on). When I discovered her texting him on his phone, and calmly confronted him, he tried initially to deny it, but then just came right out and said it was over. He "loved me, but wasn't in love with me". He never apologized, I never got to discuss anything with him. I had begged him for years to tell me why he was unhappy in our relationship. I still don't really know, because now he treats her the same way he treated me. He left me with no working fridge, no car, no running stove, and stole everything out of our savings. We had no biological children, but we were raising his little sister, since his mother had passed away from cancer as well a few years prior. She was 17 when it happened. It absolutely devestated her, the way he left. She still hasn't mentally gotten over it. She suffers from so many abandonment issues, even to this day. It's been a little over 3 years now, but he still has never offered an apology. I don't think he feels an ounce of remorse, I guess that's why the question has me so curious. While what my ex did hurt me tremendously and in many critical, permanent ways, I'm very happy to be away from him. I have a wonderful partner now, but I wish the hell that I've gone through on no one. It's why I have a very hard time sympathizing with LL's, even though I know that's an unfair attitude to have.


QueenToeBeans

Probably, but then, I’m on my own most of the time. It was a lot easier pre-pandemic when I had my friends I could do things with, or I could go out on my own. Right now, it’s where I am and I’m sticking with my vows. I’ll go back into therapy when this is over. TBH, all three of my major relationships have ended up DBs. I’m thinking it’s likely my fault, somehow, at the very least, for making poor choices. My last one was abusive, though. He was a sociopathic narcissist, a cheater, and a porn addict. I’m a lot happier where I am, and I (Maybe naively) hope things can be better soon. He has a new job, one he’s wanted for a long time, and we’re moving closer to family. Part of his problem is depression. There are other reasons for staying as well. I’m here for now. I do know, however, that if I ever end up single, I will never get married again.


[deleted]

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myexsparamour

Having sex when you are turned off is a good way to cause an aversion. Lots of women here have put themselves through that.


[deleted]

Yeah I think it depends why you have LL. Or so what’s causing it.


ManOfMysteri0

And it works for some.


[deleted]

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princessfygs

i think it's more of a "have sex even if you're not necessarily in the mood" instead of "have sex when you don't want to" for some people this might be the same thing though, they either want to or don't want to, but others have that middle way of not really wanting to but not minding, know what i mean?


[deleted]

I completely understand. Different things work for different people. That simply worked for me.


[deleted]

If you really really didn’t want to then you definitely shouldn’t have. There’s a difference between LL because of pregnancy and other reasons. I wanted to satisfy my SO. sex is kinda always in the back of my mind. “To be clear I do not think you should “just do it” if “it” is painful or otherwise harmful. I don’t think you should “just do it” only because you feel like you have to for your partner. I don’t think you should “just do it” if you resent doing it, and resentment is building up in your relationship. But do keep in mind much of your attitude about sex is under your control. You don’t have to be excited about it (at first) to go ahead and give it a whirl. If you are thinking actively negative thoughts about sex (Ugh, I really don’t want to do this or let’s get this over with!), you are not going to gain what you might if you consciously decided to keep a more open mind.” Excerpt From Sex Again Jill Blakeway https://books.apple.com/us/book/sex-again/id554280479 This material may be protected by copyright.


Mysterious_Implement

-What do I see when I look at him? I see my best friend who knows me inside and out in the most intimate ways and the only person who I have ever entrusted with my heart. In some ways I see the teenager I fell in love with. I see a man who has succeeded in life and worked damn hard for it, I see those dark circles too. I see blue eyes I can examine forever, a splash of gray in his hair, three cute forehead wrinkles and a smile that lights up his face. -When I reject him, do I see his pain? I see it, I empathize with it and I internalize it as shame and self hatred. The self-deprecating remarks he makes do not go unnoticed. The defeated tone and physical body language of rejection are not ignored. They're things I see. They're things that make me hate myself for not being able to be everything he wants and needs. They're things that drive me to continuously seek out and try literally anything I can to fix this and stop hurting him. -If he stops pursuing me do I notice? Immediately. In the beginning it is less stressful until too much time goes by and I obsess over how resentful and upset he must be with my lack of desire. I panic as I frantically dig around in my body and brain to just try and squeeze the tiniest drop of desire out of me. I often come up short. -Are there time where you want to initiate but it's been so long it would be too awkward so you don't? Like returning a library book that's 5 years past due? Not for that reason. I cannot explain it but I do not enjoy initiating even when desire surprises me. I just don't really like it even when I am able to somehow find my desire hiding in a dark corner somewhere. I am more so embarrassed for myself. As if I should be ashamed of wanting him now when I haven't had this desire for so long and perhaps I don't deserve to enjoy that desire. -Are you just together for financial reasons? Social reasons? Cultural norms? Just easier to stay than to make a change? Is it a matter of one or both gaining a bunch of weight or the 20 years and 4 kids make your partner unattractive? Sex is almost literally the only thing we fight about. We love being around each other. Spending time together, enjoying our shared hobbies or finding new ones. We love each other more than anybody on this planet...kids included. Kids, work, my bizarre desire to complete graduate school and medications I need to keep my mental health stable have not helped. No, unfortunately those things have probably all had an effect on my desire levels. Still, we have a blast together. We make each other laugh and we lean on each other in shitty times to male it through the trials of life. There isnt anybldy else I'd rather be here with. Do I wish I could just want him like he wants me? Oh hell yes. Not a day goes by that I don't keep trying to find something , anything to stimulate that desire again. I have read books, attend therapy sessions, tried the addyi pill, I entered a physician supervised weight loss program to lose my baby weight and lost 65lbs. I had a breast reduction and lift with a full tummy tuck to boost my body image. I've tried to force it or schedule it. The only thing that has helped has been the drug Vyleesi which is an injection that is pretty expensive at $100 for ab4 pack of auto-injector pens. Unfortunately they make me feel absolutely horrible for the first 30 minutes not to mention I'm absolutely terrified of needles but it works so it is all worth it. I will literally do anything and everything I can to be what I should for him because he deserves a wife that loves him and can satisfy him in the ways he needs. It kills me that I am unable to give him what he wants: a wife who desires him and asks for sex without the pressure or prodding that is usually needed and him having to initiate everything. It is a continuous process. I am still trying, i am still failing despite wanting to want to have sex. The fact he is still here, still loves me and continues to put up with my shit is absolutely mind boggling to be honest. I wouldn't blame him if he left, it's not a fair life for him.


ConfusedNC0nflicted

I'm a 27(LLM) with a 30(HLF) in a marriage with 2 toddlers and I think I fit what you're looking for mostly. I'm just going to answer each question in point form to make it easier for you. >When you look at your partner what do you see? I see a loving wife that is a close friend to me, she shows me affection and gives me compliments regularly. After having children I feel like I just see more frustration/fatigue in her than normally. She's gained 40 lbs+ since I met her and I've lost a lot of attraction too her but she is working on it now and I cheer her on (also joining her diet and helping with it). for awhile I was getting a lot of nagging/random fights over stupid things and her anger problem would just elevate the whole thing and the whole thing just made me not want her as much. >When you reject them do you see their pain? Are you oblivious to that pain or just not care? I see the pain and I see it affecting her self confidence for sure, it's not that I don't care it's just I feel helpless in the situation. I feel like I could have sex with her but it would be horrible (get it over with) kind of sex that just makes everything worse I think. I've been really trying to fix my issues that I think are causing my problems but I know there are things I need to workout with her aswell to get to the bottom of it. I've noticed over time that I'm falling out of love with her and just not caring as much lately and am wondering if it's time to split or if it's something to be fixed with some work. ​ >If they stop perusing do you notice? It's hard to say because there have been months where she doesn't try anything and not going to lie it just feels good and less stressful. She does things like tells her friends about the issue and then they talk to me about it and she'll bring it up in front of friends if we're drinking and when that happens it kinda just pisses me off and furthers my distance from her. I think I might not notice if she stops the more I think of it :/ ​ >Are there times where you want to initiate but it's been so long it would be too awkward so you don't? Like returning a library book that's 5 years past due? No, if I ever want sex we just have it. I just go lay beside her and cuddle and it always leads to sex eventually. ​ >Are you just together for financial reasons? Social reasons? Cultural norms? Just easier to stay than to make a change? Is it a matter of one or both gaining a bunch of weight or the 20 years and 4 kids make your partner unattractive? I think we're together because we have a pretty strong friendship, we have kids to think of and our lives have just intertwined over the past 7 years. We have both gained weight but it's mostly on her side, I've gained maybe 15 pounds but have generally improved my appearance majorly as I grew out of my awkward early 20s. I think a big part of it is losing attraction for my wife since she gained weight and has the baby marks(I 100% admire her and love her for sacrificing her body for our children but I'd be lying if I said I can look past it when it comes to attraction). We're getting to the point where we've briefly discussed open relationships in some senses or inviting another woman to join the relationship but I think it's mostly just talk as I don't think it's likely to work. The fact we have kids in the picture makes the decision 1000% times harder when it comes to divorce, so I'm trying somethings to improve the situation. ​ >When you don't have intimacy, when one partner is constantly rejecting the other, how do you build that pair bond? We have a strong bond from our friendship, we can have long 2 hour talks like nothing and we do it regularly. I just think the lack of intimacy is wearing on my wife and she's starting to do thing that hurt our overall marriage, I'm hoping things I can fix will begin to alleviate this situation.


ashleylouisele

So you have a platonic marriage of convenience basically? There isn’t an attraction coming from your side, but she’s a good wife and mother and compliments you. If you have that itch to scratch you do the deed, but you don’t actually *want her*? Have you guys discussed her weight gain if she mentions the no sex? Or do you pretend there isn’t a problem? I’m asking genuinely.


ConfusedNC0nflicted

I would say your first question is pretty accurate, it's mainly like a close friendship where we participate in equal teamwork to raise our kids and hold down the fort the best we can. There are moments where I want her, especially after we have a hard day and she is in a good mood and we laugh together about things. The problem is when the other 35-40% of the time she is bitchy and disrespects me and gaslights/tries to blame me for things she does wrong. I don't just use her for sex on occasion, on those days I actually want her because of her actions throughout the day or what she's wearing(she wears a lot of baggy and ratty clothes so nice clothes can do it for me). We definitely don't discuss her weight when she brings up no sex, I feel like that would crush her but without me saying anything she has begun to diet and it doing well so far. Honestly I kind of just sweep it under the rug and pretend there isn't a problem and come up with an excuse. I know it's a horrible way to handle it but I just don't feel ready to open that can of worms because once it comes out I know everything will change and I guess that scares me.


ashleylouisele

Okay, I see what you’re saying.. but who is that really best for? Not really the marriage if it’s built on just not talking about it. What will she think if she is able to lose the weight and then suddenly you want more sex? How will it hurt her then realizing it really was her and there was a problem the whole time? And with her bitching, if she’s anything like myself, it’s a catch 22. I personally find it really difficult to be this happy go lucky person when I tell him I need sex to feel loved, he shows me that my needs don’t matter to him, and then I find myself snapping because what’s the point anyways?


BakerLovePie

I want to thank you so much for sharing this and helping me see the other side. This is exactly what I was looking for. I've noticed I go from 0-60 in anger or resentment when I see a DB post and I'm trying to change that by really seeing the other side.


ConfusedNC0nflicted

I'm glad I could shed some light, it's benefitial for me as well as it's almost like therapy to rack my brain and honestly answer tough questions like this. Thanks for the post!


MyChiisSleeping

I’m the LL. I’m going to try to sum it up honestly, because it may not be “trolling” but the tone of the questions are presented in a way that leads the answers and gives it a negative tone. Asking something like “are you oblivious to their pain?” assumes either the LL has no idea what they are doing (why would they be here if they didn’t know?) or that they are willfully hurting their partner and therefore a total jerk. My HL and I are incredibly different people. Sex and intimacy make him feel loved, cherished, and important. If he is not having sex, he doesn’t feel loved, cherished, or important. If he doesn’t feel loved, he isn’t motivated to engage in non-sexual intimacy. Non-sexual intimacy makes me feel loved, cherished, and important. If I am not engaged in mutual, non-sexual intimacy, I have no interest or desire to have sex. Catch 22. However - my LL was 90% libido death by medication, 5% the fact that I have responsive desire, and 5% frustration with other relationships barriers. He and I agreed my stability was more important than sex. For a lot of years, it just was. Until it wasn’t anymore. So we worked on it. Meds have been addressed. We are working on my responsive desire. We are working on our other relationship barriers. I’m still LL than him. But we are working together. Because we are a team and there is love, respect, and genuine affection. The desire is improving as we understand more about my libido. Those couples where the intimacy, affection, respect, and desire is gone... have a lot more to work on before the sex.


ManOfMysteri0

If you are willfully & knowingly hurting your partner then...


LoggerheadedDoctor

Dude, you are all over this thread, undermining just about everything the LLs are saying. You nit pick one simple part of their response and ignore all the crappy behaviors of the HL partner. You are ignoring everything contributing to the LL, like it doesn't matter. I am sure it's projection or your own pained bias.


MyChiisSleeping

Most of the LLs who have been around for a while recognize this sub leans more towards an echo chamber of unsatisfied HLs that need a safe place to vent. There's good to be found, though, when people are open to actually understanding different points of view. When bitterness and resentment is projected, I usually recognize it as coming from a place of venting, not learning. The only time I feel defensive is if I am asked a direct question and then my answer is immediately dismissed as irrelevant because it doesn't speak to a bitter narrative. I appreciate people like you that offer genuine opportunities to learn from your experience. You're one of the ones that inspired a lot of my efforts towards change and your posts reassured me I wasn't hopeless. Thank you.


MyChiisSleeping

I agree, but there’s two sides to that as well. If either partner is willfully and knowingly hurting the other, then that is an unhealthy relationship and means either one or both are being a jerk. It’s hard to sympathize with those who behave that way. My point, though, was that if an LL is willfully and knowingly hurting their partner, it’s unlikely they would be surfing the DB sub to offer input on that or be looking for support and solutions.


tgmmc

I don’t see how a wife says they find their husband attractive, but it does not translate into sex. What does it translate into? If husbands or wives decide they no longer wish to have sex with their spouse., just be honest and tell them. How come it always seems like they are no longer interested in sex, after they are married.


britisbusy

I see a man that is hurt by me. I see his pain, and it hurts to watch. I do not notice when he stops pursuing, honestly. There are plenty of times I want to initiate but don't because what if I can't finish, or I dry up? It would hurt him even more. 10 years, 4 kids, and he looks great. We stay together because we love each other. He is my person and I am his.


eskininja

Your body changing as you age should always be discussable. There is nothing wrong with using lube. You may need different stimulation to finish, but that just gives you guys more time and intimacy while exploring. Talk to him about it.


britisbusy

I need to make that investment in our intimacy. I have a lot of anxiety surrounding sex. I should go to the store and surprise him with it. Thank you for the suggestion. With 4 kids, I neglect too many things.


eskininja

Life is different now: notice the areas that fall behind and work towards your goal. Stay positive, you seem to have a beautiful life. Look forward to your new adventure because it should be fun. (Now I feel like a fortune cookie, but it's still true)


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vividink0844

Are you married, by chance? I only ask because I'll say this, as a HL female, who has physical touch and quality time as my two top love languages, I don't think I could go into a marriage again with an already dead bedroom. It's just a thought - if you're not married yet, it might be something to think about trying to slowly work on before making that commitment. I love my partner, but if he wilfully withdrew all forms of physical love (including cuddling, affection, kissing, etc), for a year or more on end, and refused to work on it or refused to compromise.... even our non sexual bond wouldn't be enough. Because romantic couples aren't JUST platonic friends. The glue that make them different from every other "friendly" relationship, that romantic love, must be present and alive in some form. Just something to think about. I have read here never to marry into a DB. So if you love him, please don't count on him being able to live on the absolute minimum of the type of love he is seeking. Because it typically never ends well.


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vividink0844

That's good! I'm happy to hear that he's super patient too. It's a really difficult thing to work through for both parties, but it sounds like you're super open to counseling, etc (unfortunately some people refuse to even see that there's an issue). I think you being so aware of your partner's needs and so willing to work on any issues you're experiencing, mixed with his kindness and patience, is a really good sign that things will improve. ❤️❤️❤️ I love seeing responses like this.


barleyqueen

Have you tried using lube? Lots of people with vaginas don’t self-lubricate enough “naturally” to have painless penetrative sex. It doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you. That’s what they make it for.


22Hoofhearted

"I just don't desire sex, or I desire sex but no from my partner" That sentence alone wraps up why there will never be intimacy and a bond with that person. They don't want sex with you. Aka they don't desire intimacy with you. Everything else is just fluff and relationship filler.


Uckheavy1

That doesn't leave much room for situations where there is just no fault. Medical reasons, psychological reasons, other reasons, no reason. You make it seem like sex is the be all, end all for romantic relationships. Yeah, sex is fun and I miss it sometimes. I would miss my wife more if she weren't around, and that is going to happen one day.


22Hoofhearted

The OP addressed those other special circumstances. He's specifically looking for answers from/about those two types of "no nookie partners"


clevergirlbarkbark

When I look at my partner I see someone struggling to hide what he wants to keep and pretend he isn't doing it. I used to see their pain and it lead to pity fucking. Now I just don't say no i gave up, saying no just lead to molestation even more so and pissier behavior. I don't care about his pain, because he acts like he doesn't care about mine. I assume you meant pursuing. I notice and it just builds more tension. Because the longer we go without him getting a fuck the worse it gets. I don't want to initiate becauae in scared to have sex I need him to pay for me to live, I can't work anymore due to spinal injury. No I haven't told him this. You don't build a pair bond. For me personally its because hebisnt to be trusted. Not for a romantic sexual relationship.


watusernameisntken

I'm the LL in my marriage. For me personally I grew up with a very strict mom and was innocent till I was 19. It makes me feel dirty, I shut down when I feel pressured to do it. Its not that I don't want to, when we do I enjoy it, but I dont like dealing with the flood of emotions after and i am very self conscious about my body. Its not just one reason. Its a build up of reasons that are hard to find a time when all are handled and im comfortable with doing anything.


MyChiisSleeping

Something to look into for your own needs.. look into aftercare. It’s usually referenced in the context of BDSM dynamics, but is pretty spot on for a lot of LLs that struggle with the after effects of sexual activity. There’s a great read on this in this sub by u/myexsparamour (honestly a lot of good reads!) that goes into it a bit in reference to Sex Introverts/Sex Extroverts. You may find aftercare will help a lot with that flood and help you explore ways to manage that stress you associate with sex.


[deleted]

I second the above comment about aftercare possibly being helpful. I had a period of time where I would get a panic attack after or cry, shake, feel ashamed, exposed, etc. We eventually figured out that having my husband cover me back up, holding me, and calmly telling me I'm safe and that he loves me, or whatever I needed to hear, over and over until I came back down helped. It seems to have helped a lot, as I don't have those episodes anymore when we do have sex.


bna934

I’m the LL partner in our relationship. It is a mixture of things. Us both gaining weight. The strain of 5 young children, financial strain, our personalities have changed (we lack similar interest), the lack of personal respect. Sometimes by the end of a long day. I’d rather have mental intimacy than a physical, we’re my spouse prefers it the other way. He rather watch YouTube, while I watch a movie He rather eat fast food while I eat a salad He rather play xbox, while I workout.


kraiclwt

I am the LL. I’m 26F in a 1.5 year relationship with 30F. I love her more than anything. I am insanely attracted to her. At first, the sex was great and frequent. Then after about 9 months, I had stopped taking my medications for depression and became (obviously) depressed. Like, bad. To the point I no-called, no-showed at work for a week. Somehow they didn’t fire me. Anyway, I started self medicating with Prozac and it obliterated my sex drive. I’ve talked about it with my current doctor (he now prescribes it) and he added Wellbutrin which helps a little. I want to have sex with her. I feel like it’s been so long I don’t know how to initiate. She says she doesn’t either. It’s just been a while and we’ve become scared of sex in a way. I hope we can overcome this hurdle because I truly think that’s the only problem now. I hope so anyway.


Cobbmeister

The two prevous post have just about hit the mark in my opinion.


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YRMOAGTIOK

There is a FAQ stickied to the front page with a glossary if acronyms. As well as a glossary in the sidebar.


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SeaworthinessDue5185

I’m going to be honest...there is simply nothing appealing about sex. Absolutely nothing. I don’t need or want it. I abstain from relationships now and likely will forever. It saves a lot of pain on my end and whatever poor sap I convince myself I can change for.


BakerLovePie

Have you considered dating asexuals? If both sides are upfront about it that solves a lot of problems. Look for someone who wants or doesn't want the same things and you can have a great relationship with someone you're compatible with.


SeaworthinessDue5185

Lol not really considering half of them turn out to actually like sex, or so it seems. Lost count of the amount of “asexuals can and do have sex!!!!!asexuals can have kinks!!!” posts I’ve seen in my life. Plus, I would love to be able to have normal relationships, but I can’t for whatever reason so I’d rather just not engage with dating at all.


BakerLovePie

I understand, just throwing it out there as I want you to be happy. I wish everyone was as honest as you about what you want.


bulbcheck

When you look at your partner what do you see? I see a good man that I've spent my entire life with, that I love very much, I just have no passion or attraction for. When you reject them do you see their pain? I don't reject him, it's actually mutual. Some times he wants to get frisky but we both kind of shut it down pretty fast. Are you oblivious to that pain or just not care? He was oblivious to my pain the first 10 years, I guess it would be my turn, but I don't think it really hurts him. If they stop perusing do you notice? No. It's relief honestly. Are there time where you want to initiate but it's been so long it would be too awkward so you don't? Like returning a library book that's 5 years past due? We went to the lake and made out for an hour last month, my initiate. First time in almost 8 years. Wasn't awkward, but I think it was easier because we weren't gonna go all the way. Are you just together for financial reasons? Social reasons? Cultural norms? Just easier to stay than to make a change? Is it a matter of one or both gaining a bunch of weight or the 20 years and 4 kids make your partner unattractive? I lost 200 lbs, he gained them. We physically can't have sex but fingers and tongues still work, however they're still not used. It's not because of the weight change, it's honestly just a good excuse. The real reasoning is that there's too much hurt and emotional fractures that stand in the way of that kind of passion for me, and he's still trying to figure out how to fix some of the crap he did over the years. IDK how to help him either. Other than the db, we've got a pretty good life. We laugh, we love, we support each other, we work together for our household. There's more to our relationship than sex. 20 years in, 4 grandbabies and a step kid. No kids of our own.


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YRMOAGTIOK

There is a glossary of acronyms in the FAQ that’s stickied to the front page.