T O P

I can't believe it took me 5 years after beating the DLC to finally figure out why the Crowns were so important to the story.

I can't believe it took me 5 years after beating the DLC to finally figure out why the Crowns were so important to the story.

remnant_phoenix

This is a little TOO specific, but I agree about the general associations. The Old Iron King is definitely associated with Gwyn (and there's a bit of the Four Kings of New Londo in him as well; New Londo fell into Dark (Abyss), Iron Keep fell into Fire) The Ivory King is definitely associated with The Witch of Izalith. He built his keep to contain Chaos from spreading. (Side note: he's the most badass heroic character in all of DS2, cept maybe the player.) There is some association between The Sunken King and Nito. The poison, the fact that Sunken King's city as well as the Tomb of Giants are deep underground. But this is the weakest parallel. And I've seen some make the parallel between Vendrick and the Pygmy that make sense. But the points that the image makes are too definitive (and not backed up by in-game evidence) for a Dark Souls game.


howlgrimmr

I appreciate this comment a lot. I keep getting shit in the Bloodborne and Sekiro subs for being a stickler about textual (in-game) evidence in lore speculation.


remnant_phoenix

I think going fully "off-book" to pure speculation is fine, but a person should own that, with something like "This is my personal theory...." or "My headcanon is..." If you're gonna state an interpretation as if it is factual (like this graphic does) it should have an evidentiary basis in my opinion.


howlgrimmr

I feel exactly the same way. A little uncertainty clause goes a long way in my book; it’s presenting guesses based on rickety assumptions as fact that irritates me.


YukiColdsnow

maybe its just reference


Koreage90

The four crowns being able to stand beyond the shackles of time and live unbound. Makes as much sense as why a cat offers advice about convents and has the ability to sell rings and items.


Time-Musician6633

Dude that cat is the root cause of it all can't convince me otherwise. Source because everyone knows cats are mysterious and evil.


JankoHighhill

After you beat the game, before you head to the next NG cycle, the cat has some strange dialogue. Made me come to the same conclusion


TYNAMITE14

What does he say dont leave me hanging bro


MaleficTekX

Honorable sovereign, take you’re throne


Ninja_Requiem

Your


MaleficTekX

I’m leaving it


coffee869

r/madlads


Ninja_Requiem

D:


Time-Musician6633

This is madness .... madness you say? NO THIS IS Patrick!!


santaclaws351

What sin does vendrick’s crown represent then? The sin of want?


juaumlucas14

The sin of simping


GamerY7

Ivory king was a chad king


Siniroth

>Builds kingdom above the chaos flame. >Makes a shard of Manus fall in love with him. >Refuses to elaborate >Leaves


Danidanilo

>Leaves More like jumps head first into the chaos flame


MightilyOats2

The shard of Manus used him, not the other way around.


RealisticTrollface

She planned to, but ended up inevitably falling in love with the maximum chad in all of Soulsborne


xX_soupliker_Xx

Cap


colin23567

Vendrick and Raime are both guilty


mordechie

Simping for Abyssussy


youzz33

Probably, Something to do with the Pygmy/Dark Soul. Which might be that.


Koreage90

A king of men who gave up the responsibility of his name and waited for darkness to claim him, belief that the age was inevitable and he was tempted by a piece of Manus to do unspeakable harm to his kingdom though reckless endangerment.


No_Nectarine8102

That is a very good answer . The Furtive Pygmy believed The Age of Men was inevitable as well so he hid in the shadows and left humanity to be lambs for the gods . I guess the sin of The Pygmy and Vendrick was apathy .


YukiColdsnow

I thought the Pygmy was put on the edge of the world (ringed city) by the lords?


Aftermath52

Not the Pygmy but his descendants. Also the lore of the ringed city is kind of nonsensical.


No_Nectarine8102

The sin of trying to resist fire I guess . The Pygmy tried to hide in the shadows in hopes that fire will fade and he and humanity will be dominant . He divided his soul and created humanity so that even if he was threatened , his creation would continue in his path . In his mind he is doing what was right , assuring the course of nature . Vendrick didn't know what "Linking of The Fire" , "Bringing Darkness" or "Taking The Throne" meant . He though by doing so he would become a true Monarch and he would save the world and he and his people would become the rightfull ruler . Both of them failed. Once died or disappeared before the realization , the other lived to see it .


MightilyOats2

>The Pygmy tried to hide in the shadows in hopes that fire will fade and he and humanity will be dominant That was literally the inevitable cycle of the world, until Gwyn fucked with everything so badly the world started to fall apart. He created a cycle, where there was meant to be a natural evolution/change, the same way the Age of Fire succeeded the Age of Ancients.


egotisticalstoic

Vendrick understood the curse and that it prevented humanity from ever truly coming into power. Humanity do not come into their power in an age of dark, because the linking of the fire and the undead curse drains us of humanity as the age of fire ends. He became hopeless and gave up.


dhoffnun

That furtive little shit


D_Tuba

Who?


theuntouchable2725

Both Vendrick and the 4 Kings of the Abyss (New Londo) almost have the same fate: being locked up. One did by choice, and the other were enforced.


GIlCAnjos

The First Sin *roll credits*


xGodofNothingx

Hmmm... I was going to say the desire for immortality to tie in with Seath but that fits Aldia more than Vendrick


santaclaws351

Tbh the whole dlc for dark souls 1 was because manus wanted his pendant back, so I could see it.


YourVeryOwnAids

Vendrick is human so I suppose The furtive pygmy. So easily forgotten. He did nothing wrong other than pursue being human. For all the faults that brings.


ihaveaproblem35

maybe it doesnt represent a sin and instead represents how humanity was effected because of the sins of the other gods, to the point where even a powerful king like vendrick becomes a shell of a man


santaclaws351

Yeah, but this whole “curse of want” thing is a major recurring idea in 2, it would make sense that want is what ties in to vendrick.


TheKaosElite

Well vendrick is sleeping with a fragment of manus so there’s at least a link between him and the 4th soul


hornwalker

….so easily forgotten….


Necromanticer

Vendrik's sin is the same as Gwyn, the monarch fighting fate.


shichimi-san

Getting all the crowns is one of my favorite things about a play through.


Volcano-SUN

Wasn't there even an effect when you had all crowns and you used one as your headpiece? I can't quite remember.


HairyAioli8886

If you got all 4 and went back to vendrik in the memory he’d reinforce the Kings crown meaning you can’t go hollow and you can’t get curse build up. It doesn’t go into NG+ though, which really sucks.


shichimi-san

The eternal life buff!


CaptainCornerCamper

*affects


OnionOfCatarina

Hum bro "sin of poison", "sin created by" etc Its not the definition of sin man, if you could actually say what sin the sunken king or the Ivory king did I would appreciate but from now I don't see any sin commuted by those 2 for example


No_Nectarine8102

I guess he should've said "The Sin of Bringing Poison" and "The Sin of Bringing Chaos" . It kinda works considering how Nito destroyed the dragons or how The Witch of Izalith tried to "create" life .


OnionOfCatarina

Yeah but what I criticize here is that he doesn't name the sin. If its greed like Vendrick or Wrath like Elana for example ok but he says sins but never name them so I have trouble agreeing with his theory, even if I think there's something behind it, if he try to make this more clear I think it would be very interesting.


c4ptm1dn1ght

Why does it need a name? Nito’s sin was releasing poison into the world. Gwyn’s sin was linking the first flame. Witch of Izalith’s sin was attempting to recreate the flame. This is Dark Souls, not Christianity, the sins don’t have to correlate to what you recognize as sin.


OnionOfCatarina

Simply because not all bad behavior is a sin. If he manages to link a sin to one of those old kings, it will really create a connection between this and Velka. But if you are calling a guy who worshipped a dragon a sinner, so you have to tell what sin he is guilty of ? Greed ? no. Envy ? probably. So for me as long as there is no clear sin named, I can't agree with his theory.


c4ptm1dn1ght

Maybe in the world of dark souls it is. Maybe greed and envy aren’t even considered sins. I’m not saying OP’s theory is correct, but to say it’s incorrect because it doesn’t match with your ideals of what constitutes a sin is just as wrong.


OnionOfCatarina

No sorry, but sins in the dark souls universe are sins in real life too. Greed, killing, betraying a covenant, pride etc. The conception of sins is the same. But it's true that a bad action can be considered a sin, in that sense, I agree with you


GypsyV3nom

Right, in this case "sin" is a perversion of the world's nature. Each Sinner tried to bend the world to their will, and each time, the world absolutely rejected their will and created something monstrous instead.


[deleted]

Each of Manus’s daughter represented a different aspect of him that drove them to covet power (want, wrath, etc…). But these are not the sin that is mentioned in the game The first sin is Gwyn linking the flame and the lost sinner is someone who also tried to relight the first flame There is only one sin in the dark souls universe and it is linking the first flame. You’re mixing and matching different pieces of the lore and calling all of it “sins”


c4ptm1dn1ght

There is more than one sin in DS lore; when you kill npc’s or invade someone you gain sin.


[deleted]

Yeah that’s true. Fair enough, I forgot about that


Fuckles665

That’s not what they’re about, but nice theory


AnyEnglishWord

Honestly, "you're wrong but nice theory" is probably the best that can be said of any attempt to explain Dark Souls.


[deleted]

*VaatiVidya has entered the chat*


orntorias

Yes and no. Dark souls games have a very clear story if you take the time to go through items and such. As well as taking note of the journey through the game itself. The random videos that started popping up on the internet take this knowledge, which is already in game. And elaborate the absolute fuck out of it with connections that are either already in the game or are super shaky interpretations of their own making. In essence, some of the lore videos are actually contradictory to what the game is telling you.


TheSoundofNo

What are they about then


Comrade_Jacob

They don't represent sin, but OP is correct that each crown corresponds to the 4 greats souls. My understanding of it is that a crown is pretty much a Lordvessel... Vendrick says something about how stronger the flame, the deeper the shadow. When you collect all the crowns, during the cutscene the combined crown has this light radiating from the top of it, and I can't find it but I'm pretty sure a message pops up saying a strong heat radiates from the crown... And the result? You can't go hollow. Strong flame, deep shadow.


Arterra

That was such a neat final reward that is frustratingly taken away almost immediately since at that point you are basically ready for the next NG cycle. What’s the point of an everlasting crown if it doesn’t last forever?


BurningSpaceMan

Narratively that's why your character is there.


noah9942

The effect should stay. Though it's nice if you pvp and don't want to run out of effigies.


AllStoriesAreTrue

It allows you to tackle "what lies beyond the scope of light, beyond the reach of dark" since you are beyond the curse. You wont go hollow like Vendrik and can remain as a ruler without bending to the need to relink the fire or fall into darkness. We're shown that the world is cyclical like this throughout the story, but the crown allows us to step outside of the cycle. The dark souls story could've ended there with the cycle broken in this way. Mechanically in the game though it kinda sucks. At this point I have a ton of effigies, badass gear, have done the hardest fights in the game, and *now* I don't need to worry about being hollow? The fuck am I supposed to do with that?


Arterra

look good


No_Nectarine8102

No that massage doesn't appear . They aren't a lord vessel since they aren't required to store souls , link the fire or take the throne . They have the souls of the kings but I guess what OP meant was that each crown represents the deeds of the kings and the kings' deeds parallel The Lords . They didn't inherite the souls , they are just ,in a way, a reflection of The Original 4 Lords . Not literally but symbolically .


SeawyZorensun

I mean there are paralels for sure...


[deleted]

Parallels to what? The post doesn’t make sense, it’s mostly word salad.


SeawyZorensun

Paralels between the themes of the crowns and their DLCs to the three Lords of DS1


No_Nectarine8102

Elaborate why it doesn't please .


[deleted]

1 the crown of the sunken king being connected to a “sin of poison” made by grave lord nito doesn’t make any sense. Sinh was always poisonous and Shulva became a poisonous area because Yorgh went down there and put a spear through Sinh (this released all the toxic shit from the dragon and it spread throughout the area) 2 Old Iron King was killed by the smelter demon (summoned by Eygil). After his death a demon possessed his body and transformed him into the boss you fight. He was not killed and transformed by the crown 3 The Ivory king and his kingdom are there as a defense against the chaos created by the witch of izalith, they do not in any way represent the witch or what she did. They did not try and recreate her flame, they were fighting against the chaos created and left behind by the witch herself. The witch of Izalith is most likely represented by the lost sinner. The lost sinner is supposedly locked up for trying to recreate the first flame. Yes, there are four crowns or lords (not 3. OP left out Vendrick) in every souls game but the rest of it doesn’t really make sense


No_Nectarine8102

1. Perhaps but how a dragon is consumed with poison ? And I guess the sin isn't poison itself but the act of bringing poison to the world , whether intentional or not . 2. Translation error , The Old Iron King was not killed by smelted demon , he was killed by Ichorous Earth . A demon resembling a minotaur . The demon , who bears a soul of his own , killed and possessed The Iron King's Soul . 3. The Ivory King did not build his kingdom in order to gaurd the flame . No citizen would live directly above it ! He found the flame after he built his kingdom . He tried to contain the flame with his soul but failed , it corrupted him and his knights . Alsanna froze Eluem Loyce in hopes that it would contain it . The Ivory King didn't intentionally bring Chaos but he brought Chaos nonetheless .


[deleted]

Those are good points.but I disagree about a few things: 1. The Sunken king and his crown did not do anything to bring poison into Shulva. Yorgh speared sinh, who is a dragon that breathes poison and fire, and this resulted in crippling sinh and his poison magic (or whatever) infecting the area. Has nothing to do with the crown. Also, Nito is the god of death and disease, disease is represented in-game by toxicity (not poison) 2. Old Iron King became ichorous earth after sinking below the lava and meeting a creature who “must not be named”. There are many theories about who that creature is, my theory is that he ordered Eygil to use chaos magic to increase the production of iron without losing resources. This resulted in the overproduction of iron that was added to the castle and caused it to sink. This also resulted in the creation of the smelter demons, one of which killed the old iron king. Finally, after dying his body was pulled under the lava and possessed by a demon “which must not be named”. That’s the boss demon you fight at the end of the level. I’ve never seen anything about it resembling a Minotaur though EDIT: Old Iron King found a scepter that allowed him to mass produce iron out of nothing, eygon didn’t do that but i think eygon did accidentally create the smelter demons. 3. You’re right the ivory king’s kingdom was there before the witch created the flame of chaos. But he didn’t bring anything into the world, he was fighting against something trying to come into this world and became corrupted. He’s closer to Artorias than the witch of izalith (who is represented by the lost sinner)


noah9942

Why wouldn't the dragon have poison? We've seen drakes shoot fire and lightning, seathe had magic and curse, Kalameet deals physical and magical damage with his breath attack (which is the ds1 equivalent of dark damage).


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Toxic and poison are two different things. Sinh is a dragon whose breath is a poison and fire weapon. Nito used toxic miasma to weaken the ancient dragons because he is the god of death and disease. Toxic and poison are different things in these games The crowns don’t cure you from the curse, it just keeps you from hollowing any further. After vendrick gives you his blessing, if you’re wearing a crown and you die then the crown will hollow instead of you Also Manus split his soul and gave it to his daughters so how could vendrick have the Pygmy’s lord soul?


[deleted]

I’ve never seen a connection between gwyn and OIK. He was possessed by a demon after he was killed by smelter demon. The old chaos is not destroyed after you beat the ivory king because you can still travel there in-game to fight charred loyce knights. Beating the ivory king saves his soul and you can keep going back to save the souls of loyce knights, if I remember right.


[deleted]

The sin and the crowns are not related. The game is called “Scholar of the first sin” because Aldia refers to the act of starting the age of fire as a sin (and OP pointed this out) but that doesn’t mean that each lord represents a certain type of sin.


No_Nectarine8102

"Scholar of The First Sin" is not the reasoning behind the theory . What each lord's actions and deeds brough is the basis .


[deleted]

In DS2 vanilla, the four bearers of lord souls are connected to DS1: Rotten/Nito, Sinner/Chaos, Freja/Seath, Old Iron King/Four Kings. Nito and Chaos each bear their own lord soul. Seath and Four Kings each have a fragment of Gwyn’s soul. In SOTFS, the four crowns are connected to Manus through his four daughters. Each daughter possesses a shard of Manus’ lord soul (manus is the furtive Pygmy). That is the only connection between the crowns and the lord souls that I know of, and I don’t really see any parallels between the DS2 kings and the Lords in DS1 (Witch, Gwyn, Nito, Pygmy)


--TreeTreeTree--

And what does all of them together mean? The sin of the furtive Pygmy?


No_Nectarine8102

Apathy . He divided parts of his soul into humanity and gave it to hollows . His legacy is now able to see the fading of the flame . He then left the rest of his soul to The Pygmy Lords and he hid in the shadows . But humanity was cursed into Linking The Flame and The Pygmies were unknowingly imprisoned in The Ringed City . His legacy was lost and ruined . He did nothing and Vendrick does nothing now .


MaleficTekX

I don’t get Nito’s other than he can inflict poison


guardian_owl

Nito's contribution to the war with the dragon was to "[unleash] a miasma of death and disease" against them. Presumably Sinh did not get a full blast of Nito's miasma, enough to make Sinh very sick, but not enough to kill him. So he fled to underground and hibernated to heal, but Sinh can't heal enough to overcome the miasma, just enough to keep from dying. Then the fool Sir Yorgh popped that big balloon of death with his spear and Sinh "[spewed] forth the poison that had long brewed within him, blanketing the city in a miasmic cloud." (Yorgh's Ring).


theuntouchable2725

The Iron King wasn't transformed into a Fire Beast. It was a Fire Salamander that consumed the Iron King's soul and grew in size and power. I don't know if I agree/disagree with anything else. Time to think. It's nice to see that people give a damn about this game and its lore. <3


Clarrington

This is the first time I've heard this theory, honestly.


theuntouchable2725

Yeah it's because people tend to skip through the most important part of the Iron King's Soul: "possessed by things that lurk below." What lurks below, you might ask. If it was Dark Souls III, I'd say demons (Demon from Below) but since the fire of the Iron Keep is made of Iron, and not Chaos, only the Fire Salamanders meet the criteria. Unless there's a thing we never get to encounter through-out the game.


YukiColdsnow

so Vendrick is the king of dark, easily forgotten


ArcadianGh0st

Love the cycle theory (how each king in ds2 represents a Lord soul in ds1) it's such a clever lore note.


SoufDakotas

The kings dont represent each of the ds1 lords really the old ones do since they are all relatwd to them, have their souls and some have similar lore or appearance, sinner is witch of izalith, rotten is nito, freja is seath and oik is gwyn. Vendrick could represent pygmy i guess but so could aldia but because of the little knowledge on pygmy and the fact the dark soul isnt in ds1,2 or the main game of 3 leaves all of it up to interpretation


No_Nectarine8102

He didn't say that the kings represent the old lords . He said how they paralleled the old lords in their deeds .


SoufDakotas

Ye i saw that but not really each of the lords of ds1 their sins are in different characters which are aldia as seath sinner as witch and idk about nito or pygmy and gwyns sin cant be replicated since it was making humanity a fleeting form


[deleted]

Nope


YourVeryOwnAids

The story of DS2 may be more tangential than the others, but I actually love it for the context it provides. we get told that "this land" is in a constant flux of rebirth and death, ever shifting lands, and warped time. 2 is just another cycle, and it's really cool to see how the world deals with not being the first or last cycle. The cycle in the middle is very human, and very morose. In 1 everyone is waiting for a prophecy. In 3 everyone is just kinda waiting for the end. In 2 everyone is just trying to exists. Unlike 1-3 the kingdom is ruled by man. The primary goal of the dlc is to legitimately break the curse. Even hinting towards the nature of the curse, as something tied to the physical nature of the soul. Very good.


Brunaz_29

These are the kind of things I love from Dark Souls 2


LoneKraken

Cool theory but incorrect.


No_Nectarine8102

Why ?


DeansALT

"the sin of poison" What does that even mean? It's completely vapid. its a fun theory but Cmon man that's such a reach its unbelievable. Nito didn't even commit a sin we just rolled up and killed him as a means to an end, if anything he was the only one with a lord soul actually doing his job. The old Iron king was killed by a demon built by his personal pyromancer so if anything he has more in common with the witch than he does with Gwyn. And ivory king quite literally 1v1ed the chaos, that's more gwyn like than anything else given the history of the black knights from DS1. The more you think about literally any of it the less it makes sense. Besides, The great old ones we kill throughout the course of the regular DS2 story is already a direct allegory for the lord souls, why would they do that twice? TLDR: the more I read this the more holes I find my brain pokes into it and there's basically zero evidence to support it.


GamerY7

the crowns were the actual '4 great souls' all along, when I realised I kinda became gigglishly happy


MattressSt0re

I don’t get how that’s possible when they chosen undead used them to link the flame in DS1 though


GamerY7

it's not much about linking the fire in ds2 but more about getting rid of the curse


egotisticalstoic

Seems like linking the fire doesn't consume the souls, it just spreads them back out into the world. There's plenty of references in the games to souls from older cycles. The coming of the first flame, and subsequent linkings of the flame, seem analogous to the big bang. The world is stagnant and dead, and then bang, big explosion, life is scattered across the world.


AscendantComic

ooooo sinh is poisoned because of Nito ?


MightilyOats2

Gwyn's first sin was putting the circle of fire around the Dark Soul, thereby altering the nature of reality and dooming the world. Linking the fire is small potatoes compared to that.


AnotherTakenUsername

DS2 has lore??