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They have to sell it all now because they are barely covering costs. When it was $40k plus they were bringing in Surplus and could afford to sit on some of it, speculating it would increase in value.


They could also sell shares to cover costs back then.




Some of the miners are traded in the stock market. When valuations were high last year they could cover costs by issuing more shares.


Can we make profit mining at 20K BTC with a 12 kW solar panel? Asking for my friend.


No, because first you'd need the mining equipment, then you'd need to invert the DC to AC and then you'd need to either store excess energy or feed it back into the grid for a small payoff, and you would be drawing from the grid for 2/3 of the day so unless your provider has amazing rates you will be paying more than a pro miner is.


I suppose some kinds of batteries are cheap. 12kW x 24h = 288kWh storage for 24 hours' worth of sun. That gives you... about [$29 grand for lead-acid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_commercial_battery_types). Nope, not cheap at all.


And how many ASICS will 12kW run? My guess is not that many.


That 12kw solar panel will only net about 4kw. Unless they are factoring in the inefficiency into that number, and it’s actually a 50kw panel.


How to kill eutopia? With reality.


Most utility companies bank what you generate. Which is far more valuable then a payoff. Summer months I bank around 6 kwh which in turn is used in the winter. Haven't paid an electric bill in 4 years. Except the hookup fee which goes up every year.




you dont use gpus to mine bitcoin. they buy expensive asics that use a lot of electricity (bitcoin algo uses a lot of electricity to mine, even with more efficient machines)


Wtf even in this subreddit people still don't know this? We still have some noobs or buttcoiners still hanging around.


There's a lot more coins out there than BTC that are being mined though.


and NiceHash pays in bitcoin for ETH mining lol


Oh, the crypto and mining subs are filled with people who have no idea, but also think they understand.


The thing is, these things are all produced by the same groups of people.


untrue. plenty of idiots out there that still want to mine using GPUs. unprofitable, unlikely to hit anything unless in a pool but they dream big.


Some of them do. [Some of them use 3080s.](https://www.techpowerup.com/276554/ethereum-mining-farm-with-78-rtx-3080-graphics-cards-spotted) ASICS were hard to come by during the boom (and obscenely expensive) and miners used whatever they could find. This is why Nvidia began selling mining limited cards. Further, [with mining so profitable for Nvidia,](https://decrypt.co/93106/nvidia-crypto-mining-processor-revenue-slumps-77-24m-q4-2021) they rebalanced fab production. This meant supply constraints for consumer oriented cards, exacerbating existing pent-up demand and supply chain issues.


This is embarrassing at this point: ASICs are the only way you can make a cent mining BTC. GPUs are only effective when mining Eth.


You’re right. I thought we were discussing crypto mining, not Bitcoin specifically.


Sir, this is a Wendy's


Institutions use ASICs, and prevent anyone else from understanding how they work so that they can maintain market advantage. YOU use GPU's


So miners were holding when btc was 40k+ and they're dumping now at 20k


That is very strange. You'd think miners would be of the biggest bulls and believers of BTC long-term. Maybe they're forced to, to remain in operation considering rising costs of pretty much everything


That’s exactly it. They need to pay their bills and other costs each month. When BTC was double the price, they’d only need to sell half as much to keep the lights on.


Smartest answer


Yup this is most likely what’s happening. It’s not a losing of faith, it’s more operation costs.


also, the miners are likely confident it's going to get worse before it gets better. sell here to hedge against 10-13k,


I dumped all mine a few hours before it went from 30-20k. And I’m sure there were quite a few like me that seen the writing on the wall. My daily profits went from $30 a day to about $8 in the past year… I’ll keep mining for now, but it’s only making a bit more than what the electric bill is at this point. Also completely liquidated all BTC back when it was 50k+ and feeling good about that move.


Nice move. Everyone thought i was stupid selling at 50k and selling all my GPUs for 900 bucks in bulk (when they were going for around 1k individually)


And PoW operation costs as HIGH AF. PoS and other solutions can't get adopted soon enough. At the end of the day, these high electricity and maintenance costs are a burden to both Miners and Users. We gotta lower the costs.


They also have a huge upfront cost as the mining gear is extremly expensive, so they have to take profits to even break even because the mining gears days are numbered.


I read it costs $35k in electricity (US) to mine 1 bitcoin so it makes sense to dump under that price. I know it’s mined in blocks but that’s the average per


I’ve seen estimates closer to 16k for pure electricity costs


You might be right that may have been total cost after fees and everything


Sounds about right, this is why as a former miner I never recommend getting into mining. You’re just better off buying and holding.


Many of them were lending it for yield and likely brought some back home to sell, like Hut.


Lol HUT hasn’t sold any. What are you talking about?


They’re selling 4x as much tho


Everything is twice as much and bitcoins worth half what it was


I've been using my mining profits on runescape membership


The first time I heard about bitcoin was in 2011. My friends brother was botting runscape accounts and selling the accounts for bitcoin. Much better hashrate with shitty PC. This comment brought me full circle what a trip.


I sold rsgp in high school, 2012ish. Had people constantly charge back so I got into bitcoin, no more charge backs


Fuck yea that's what we call big buisness! Money flows one way


Upward Transfer of Wealth is Constant


Anyone remember Glider? I was running 8 accounts while I was at high school 😂


i sold my green h mask in 2010 for 200 btc (no i am not currently a millionaire).


Curious, when did you sell it?


I didn't, I lost it. forgot about it because funny internet money, zero'd my HDD before giving my old computer away, then remembered it when i saw an article about it reaching $25


I can trim your Bitcoin for free, I’m also doubling!


Fishing lvl?


Mining level?


Smithing lvl?




















I got perma banned when I was in the fishing guild because I tried to avoid the chat filter and write the clan forum url for my friend. All the fuckers in there reported me for a laugh.


Virginity level?






Grand wizard


Bought a GF yet?


Why do miners need to be the biggest bull? As long as their investment ROI is met, then they will keep on selling based on their own business plan. If they are the biggest bulls as you said, they would be better to just raise money to buy BTC directly instead like microstrategy


You're right. There's zero reason for it. People think that if they have a religious belief in crypto - others heavily invested in it must share it as well. That's nonsense. Miners are there for money, they got to pay the bills, loans, salaries and whatever else, so it's quite obvious that they will hold during the bull market and sell ASAP during the bear market, especially if the currency goes below a certain threshold.


If you are a megabull you borrow fiat against your mined stash at the top, hoping BTC goes even higher so you can sell for even more later and pocket the difference between the price increase and your interest payments. You're forced to stop doing this when Silvergate Bank is no longer willing to loan you even more money to keep paying the power company while prices are crashing. The miners were gambling on leverage during the boom times just like everyone else, and now it's coming back to bite them.


To me that does not strange at all. They are selling what they need to cover operational costs. Might be also good time to invest in new miners as their pricing tends to follow more on how much profit they can do in the next 6 months than what producing them costs.


Maybe most miners are just paper hands especially those working for companies.


>the obvious reason is that they need X amount of dollars to operate, so when price drop they need to sell more BTC to cover costs


Dropping the price of bitcoin further, lose lose


I think it is the opposite. Miners are the primary source of sell pressure, which is why Bitcoin rises immensely after each halving.


100% of production sold is alarming and miners are traditionally some of the biggest bulls, but this gives me the impression that due to the overarching economic conditions they foresee Bitcoin going much further down and selling in anticipation to purchase more. No one can predict the market with much accuracy, but if 100% of production has been sold then that definitely does raise some alarm bells. I guess it may be time for all of us to consider setting very optimistic limit orders.


It’s not strange at all, they just see which way the wind is blowing.


Bear market will probably be long. So they have to pay the bills


Most likely they are trying to make a run for it, selling off their equipment to places with cheaper electricity.


Miners already are using cheapest electricity . It's literally their job bro.


What possible source do you have for this besides wild speculation?


Or just taking 25% at 50k but now its 20k they're taking more BTC out to keep fiat revenue the same.. Kind of makes sense


I mine and have been since 2011. I started selling when it didn't hold 55k. My cost for mining BTC is under 14k. I really don't have much coin right now, but I am selling when I get enough.


They are one of us




They mastered buy high sell low.


Business is business. Bills must be payed


Will be interesting to see what happens if Bitcoin goes lower. If they're selling 100% of their holdings, it must mean that profit margins are slim to none, and we could see a shake-up among the miners as a lot would have to close up shop.


They aren't selling 100% of their holdings. They are selling 100% of minted Bitcoin from may. Just for clarification.


This is what happened in the last cycle, mining just got more centralised and the big players bought the little players equipment


But I thought everyone in Camp Bitcoin said PoW was the most decentralized it could be?? /s


its decentralized to blockstream


Does this one thing prove PoW isn't the most decentralised though? Not saying that it necessarily is, but all consensus mechanisms have their downsides.


No it doesn’t. BTC’s decentralization comes from the node validators, not the miners.


thats a false and dangerous narrative. if most hashrate comes from regulated mining-corps and they are forced by the government to start censoring transactions it doesn't matter how many nodes you have, the chain will be censored.


This is why PoW makes sense. The cost of maintaining the network ensures distribution. PoS holders are rewarded simply for holding creating more wealth. There is no point in selling when it costs nothing to hold and you just create more wealth. PoW fixes this issue by miners having to sell some of what they mine in order to pay for their costs of securing the network, and by doing so distributing wealth. This is the main issue with PoS as there is no incentive to actually do anything with the tokens that are created or distribute wealth because the people with the biggest wallets who are generating the most have no incentive to sell as they control/secure the networks with literally zero work. Old money loves Proof of stake. More in depth maths on PoS https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fbloc.2021.443966/full


Perhaps for initial distribution, but even then it's pretty inefficient at distribution because of economies of scale working as a centralizing factor for hashpower.


For an ASIC mined coin, yes. For an CPU mined coin, like Monero, no. See RandomX.


Correct. My argument was against sha256


It's why it doesn't because as the commenter above said, the big players buy the little players their equipment and it becomes more centralised. This is why a PoS based system that ensures stake pools don't get too big (like Cardano for example) make more sense.


> This is why a PoS based system that ensures stake pools don't get too big (like Cardano for example) make more sense. Can you not simply run multiple pools to counter this issue?


Not great as hashrate would centralize to rich mining entities who can afford these down markets.


Welcome to unregulated markets and their results.


The amount of people complaining about lack of regulation after losing some money is annoying af. What regulation do you even want? Should large miners have their property be seized and distributed to smaller fish?


bro no one is complaing he is just stating facts


Yes like the "unregulated" energy market, which is one of two input factors.


What do you mean "welcome"? BTC was meant to be regulated only by consensus, we all know this. Oh and if you want a bigger regulation joke, take a look at USA's SEC.


We are in the cryptocurrency sub, not the Bitcoin sub. And what something is ment to be, doesn’t guarantee that as a result. “Regulatet by consensus is still unregulated. And not, not all know that or understand that. Crypto and mining is filled with people who don’t know what they’re doing or the risks they’re taking. And I haven’t said anything about what I want or don’t want, so I don’t get what kinda defensive you’re on.


"Filled with people who don't know what they're doing" Do we need to regulate something just because people are stupid? It's just economic Darwinism in my opinion.


Yes because the government regulators aren’t ever like former and future employees of the companies they’re supposed to be regulating or anything.


Being unregulated isn't exactly the issue here


Absolutely nothing to do with regulation, and pad trolls will say shit like this


I would argue that's already the case. Mining equipment is so expensive that you fully need to commit to and know what you're doing.


Someone’s gotta pay that enormous electricity bill.


But what about the person mining under the FED building. He does not have to pay.


Oh no Anyway


Rising electricity cost and crash of BTC price. May eventually lead to many miners not running for a while till the prices pick back up since rather than mining at a loss, you can spend the money you would on electricity to buy BTC directly


Yep, but they wouldn't be selling if they were planning on buying near these levels any time soon. I personally sold 99% of my crypto a while ago and switched off my rigs once they became unprofitable, we've still got a way to drop before I buy back in.


It's likely that demand for mining hardware is currently very low, so some miners may buy some new mining hardware at a discount now.


Every comment is HOW DO THEY SELL MORE THAN 100%?! The chart is monthly production, in May they sold >100% which means they sold more bitcoin in May than they mined in May. They did this by selling bitcoin that they had mined in previous months but not yet sold. Hope this helps.


Hodl high, sell low


Just like the rest of us


But with profit


Na, you can still overpay for Asics or gpu's and then sell coin at bad time while paying high electricity There's ways to fail everywhere don't worry! 😢


Some profit better than no profit I guess


One of us! One of us!


This is the way.


So the usual


Miners need to pay for their businesses’ operating costs with their revenue which happens to be bitcoin💫


Miners have overheads to pay. In a bull market, they will sell less BTC because they are worth more to make pay day. In a bear market, they will have to sell more. Case in point, Miners, for better or worse, will enhance the bull or deepen the bear market.


Exactly. So what’s the problem for the bulls here? They forgot that little tiny detail


Correct, they understand the 2021 cycle is OVER. See you in 2024.


The 2021 cycle started in 2018 (three years earlier). So more like 2025 if history was to repeat, which would have us bottoming this year.


Which can be as soon as in a year, if you factor in the buildup to the halving.


2024 could be as soon as 1 year?


Well they do say the world moves faster nowadays. It's just not efficient to wait a whole year for a year.


As in the expected pump of 2024 might start early because a build up could happen leading up to the halving event


Correct, I meant the cycle.




Not this shit about halving having anything to do with the price again


When did you first buy crypto? Just curious.


First purchase ever was VEN in 2017 now VET.


On the flip side, PC parts are now cheaper/in stock


BTC mining is done by ASICs, not GPUs - price of BTC doesn't **directly** affect GPU availability any more (there are indirect correlations through ETH)


ASICs are electronics, they use silicon and are produced in wafer fabs and thus directly compete with other electronic devices such as GPUs.


The price of bitcoin affects the price of ethereum pretty directly.


I beg to differ, lots of GPU based rigs out there mining BTC. Sure, most of them have switched to ETH but before the crash you could make profit using regular GPUs


you can't mine bitcoin with a gpu and make a profit. it's not possible. they are far too inefficient at it.


You are being downvoted by ignoramuses. What you’re saying is correct.


What he is saying is wrong. Most people mine eth with gpus and the rest a bunch of different altcoins. You haven't been able to profitably mine btc with gpus since 2012-2014.


Unfortunately, this isn't a situation where you're being downvoted by the "echo chamber" of ignoramuses in a subreddit. What he's saying is most definitely not correct. This is easily verifiable. Edit: The fact this is getting downvoted says everything about the state of this subreddit.


This is probably bs and an attempt to mislead people to dump the coins they have mined so far so they can be bought by the sharks waiting. But you won't fool me, hodling.


This article and the comments are not supported with any facts. The reality is MPI is doing well, price to produce is 17340. Miners aren't doing shit but last week when they brought the price back up from dipping to 17300 where they would lose and out and suffer a chance to sell to a bigger miner. Also Miners don't sell too much. They have to have validation limits. They can only validate what up to the limit they have on hand. That being said the Miners who are still on predominantly grid power are the ones who are selling if anything just to cover higher electricity prices due to natural gas booming. Source :cryptoquant


How do you sell more than 100% of something? Are you implying they are selling their holdings now too?


Selling more than 100%?


From what it sounds like to me maybe they were selling everything they mined plus coins previously mined or at least previously held. That’s just my guess as the wording is odd.


More than 100% of their *production*


yeah, use your brain here you can do it buddy. if they have been selling 25-40% normally, that means they are keeping the rest, you following so far little guy? so now when they have expenses that remain the same or have increased, but btc is worth less, they need to sell more to cover costs, plus may also be hedging against lower profits. still with us champ? so they are dipping into their savings, all that extra btc they have been keeping up until now, and selling ALL of their currently mined coins, plus some of the old ones they had saved up. hopefully u/HansTilburg was able to follow along, maybe soon he’ll have a second neuron firing too, might even be able to get to the potty by himself.


Well the obvious reason is that they need X amount of dollars to operate, so when price drop they need to sell more BTC to cover costs


Miners: hold this bag


Usually miners start a dump, this time they got frontrunned by leverage traders and Defi-projects built like a house of cards. Wen Lambo? Not this year


How do you sell more than 100% of something?


Previously they were Not selling 100% of the btc they mined. That means every month they were adding btc to their own reserves. Now they are selling all the btc they mined last month plus some of the btc they had put away in their reserves.


Remember, kids: buy high, sell low.


Trying to cover that electricity bill


Hah, jokes on them. I still haven’t mined a single satoshi, so I’m not selling!


I mined a single Satoshi the other day and sold it at a 1% profit. Lambo incoming.


Hard to believe miners wouldn't have been taking big profits for the last two years. Pretty damned stupid of them really.


they were, just now theyre selling some of what they didnt sell before in addition to what they produce now. many save 20-50% or even more in case the market goes back up. now they see there isnt a reversal so everything is being sold.




how do you sell more than 100% of your production?


You have a surplus of bitcoin


You sell all of what you are producing plus some of what you have accumulated and stored away


If you have more than you are currently producing. You farm 2 potatos and sell 1 and hold on to the other. Next year you farm 2 potatos and sell both and that smelly 3rd potato.


Finally I can get a good graphics card for a decent price


I saw a story earlier where they were auctioning them off in large numbers to cover costs.


either my english is bad or im stupid. how do you sell more than 100% of your production?


You produce 100 units per year. For 5 years, you sell 40% of that production. At the end of that 5 years, you have 300 units. In year 6, you produce 100 units, but you sell 120, leaving you with 280. You sold 120% of production.


U produced x in a month, which is 100%. Aside, you have y from previous months. And you decide to sell x+y which is 100%*x+y%*y, greater than 100%*x


Wouldn't this mean that we have hit bottom of price?


Why would miners selling signal the bottom? If anything, it reveals those who believe in BTC the most are raising their white flags for some USD. Times are tough, bottom could very well be much lower.


It means we are at the true cost of bitcoin as far as network difficulty. If the price goes lower the network will have to become less secure for people to mine at a profit again.




That is precisely what he is saying. Because of the current number of miners, the network is too difficult to mine to earn a profit in terms of BTC earned for the same hashrate as what was profitable when BTC was worth more. In order for it to be profitable to mine again the difficulty must go down. The total network hashrate must decrease for that to happen, meaning the network security also goes down.


Does the cost affect the price?


More selling will further reduce the price.


The price is entirely made up anyway


It isn't good if this is happening. Supply outstripping demand. I remember in 2018, this is exactly what happened and it fell so low that a lot of miners just shut their rigs down. It only came back because institution bought billions of dollars. Now that even institutions are in trouble, you will see everyone flocking to Fiat and wait it out.


One of us one of us. Don’t worry too much about it? 🤣


More than 100%....I need more education apparently...


How do you sell more than 100% wish I could learn this trick


how the fuck can someone sell something more than 100%?


and the Ponzi scheme unravels.


What do you think is the consequence of this? What do you think is unraveling?


What about the other ponzi scheme? Where you “invest” in a company and buy “stocks” and hope they increase in value? That scheme has been going since the 1300s and no one has stopped it yet, despite people losing untold amounts of money and a few lucky ones raking in all the rewards :( :(