Question; least favorite character in the cosmere and why?
By - LunaYoYo
Rayse. I'm not going to jump on the Fuck Moash train, because he's an asshole, but a well-written asshole. Rayse, however, is your stereotypical vengeful god bent on destroying the world.
I kinda like Odium for the simple fact that he'll straight up walk up to you, offer you a seat, and calmly explain to you that you're an obstacle and going to be destroyed.
A BIG issue with him is that we never see his plan. He wants to shatter the oathpact so that he's free to act, but what is he acting towards? He clearly wants to shatter/splinter the other shards, but why? Does he just want to destroy everything because that's what hatred begets? But Hatred is not destruction, that's ruin. In a massive void with nothing but Rayse, he can only hate himself. Seems like a shitty end-goal.
I mean he does say he's essentially trying to build armies to go to war with the other worlds in the cosmere, but we have no real indications as to why.
From what little info we have, he seemed to think war with other shards/worlds was inevitable. Whether that was because he wanted to start a war or he just assumed the others would start one against each other, including himself, we don’t know.
I think that's because Todium us gonna piggy back off those plans, and therefore we will see those plans eventually.
I like how he’s actually fairly incompetent but since he’s plugged into god, it sorta balances out.
I'm hoping we get more Rayse context in Dragonsteel, because I'm curious how an obviously evil asshole gets a shard.
The way Rayse was handled is nothing short of masterful. Just a true asshole--we get enough to hate him between OB and RoW, but you're right that he's not interesting. Meanwhile, he's the center of Hoid's attention even though we're getting hints that Rayse and Odium are not the same.
The getting killed and having all the well-established power of Odium combined with the well-realized psychology and philosophy of T? Truly terrifying.
If the shard bends your personality towards it's aspect over time it makes sense that he would be that way though. Also he serves the purpose of showing what a more clever thoughtful evildoer can do with the same power (Taravangian)
Why? Basically everything about him is annoying. :D
"only you can save me" said the stereotypical emo boy to the only girl he's ever met
Imo he is mental unstable tho, and I think more of him as a closet depressed psycho needy guy (he liked that vin didnt reject him from the start I guess)
>closet depressed psycho
This implies it was in the closet. He was just outright psycho.
He literally cuts himself whilst having a dinner-table discussion with his father.
Yeah I kinda forgot that lol u guys R right straight psycho
Literally useless. Straff is a piece of shit but at least he's instrumental to further the Vin/Elend relationship. Zane literally makes book 2 worse.
I think Zane mostly existed to foreshadow the earring revelation in book 3, and as credible threat to Vin individually (another mistborn to worry about). Fuck knows why we had so many parts of the book dedicated to him though.
Yeah, WoA is my least favorite Era 1 book exclusively because you have to listen to him whine for half the book.
Didn't like the character, but he did add a lot of tension. He was in a position to screw up EVERYONE's plans. He was the only Mistborn Straff had and a rebellious streak so he could have very easily screwed over Straff, but also had some hooks in Vin and had Atium so could just as easily screw over Vin/Eland. Given his unstable mind and own unclear motivations he could go either way.
You know what? I agree. I was trying to think because I feel like I like all the characters in the Cosmere, but Zane did feel... underwhelming? I didn't dislike him while I was reading it but I did feel like something was missing in his story.
That’s interesting. I was honestly bummed he died at the end of WoA. I really felt like he had a lot of room to improve and then Vin just says “Nah” lol.
Yeah, me too. I always felt like he was going to have some kind of redemption. So his end feels like an unfinished story. I really liked his interactions with Straff. I don't remember much but I do remember that they had this relationship where Straff acted like he wasn't afraid of him but he actually was, and being paranoid around him. I was actually surprised that it didn't end with him killing Straff.
Zane is the kinda guy who is posting non ironic Joker memes on Facebook and thinks "edgelord" is a personality.
Yeah, literally just made two books worse. They generally felt like a really terrible character.
Ha was looking for this from Chaos - happy to see it from Jof - have an upvote for the absolute no questions worst character in the cosmerverse.
I was *this close* from just not bothering with a "why". *Everyone knows why.*
I mean Gavilar seems to get a little worse with each new revelation. Up until OB he came across as an almost perfect king for the world he lived in, but starting in OB and cresting in RoW is this arrogant, power-hungry, selfish prick who's worse than Sadeas in many ways.
I think that’s on purpose though, slowly taking down the image of the great king and revealing him to be a big a-hole.
It echoes Dalinar as well we start out seeing them good then learn the bad. But Dalinar was able to over come that and Gavilar didn't.
If this were any author but Sanderson I'd be willing to bet a lot of money he molested Jasnah. As is, I'm pretty sure he did something else terrible to her that we'll find out about.
One thing i like about the Gavilar revels is they really do help to explain how he and Sadeas were so close despite him being such a clear foil to the version of Gavilar that Dalinar remembers and is trying to emulate.
Sadeas and Amaram did the best job at making me Dislike them, but that's what they were supposed to do.
"Least Favorite" would usually be somebody I think was written poorly and I cant think of any examples of that off the top of my head. I didnt like Marasi, Wax, or Siri at first, but they all grew on me, and I think that was spill-over from similar characters Id read elsewhere.
Venli is always acting like an annoying little sister. She’s jealous, conceited, power hungry, and whiney. Her actions and decision making skills are immature. I haven’t given up hope yet though!
I felt like Venli became more likeable in her Oathbringer appearances after meeting her briefly in WoK and WoR, but regressed significantly as a character in Rhythm of War. And that was supposed to be "her" book, but I found myself liking her less after having read it. I feel like I understand her a bit more but I do not like her and I did not particularly enjoy her sections. For RoW being THE Venli book, Navani stole her thunder in a big way.
I fully agree. Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar all have undesirable traits, but their flashbacks helped to explain why they are the way they are. For Venli though, I kept asking myself "Why are you like this?".
That's kinda the point imo. She's the younger sister who was jealous and odious to a fault. All she really wanted was approval or acknowledgement. Jaxlim having borderline dementia meant that venli didn't get much support in the phase of her life that was more volatile.
I can understand not liking her character, immature hotheads tilt me a lot and I strongly dislike various characters who are otherwise popular for that.
I just think there's still merit in showing how parental neglect despite no obvious Ill intent, can be twisted as such to someone who can't hear anything else.
I can see that. I suppose her flashback chapters didn't jive with me like the others did. I also liked Eshonai much more than Venli, so maybe I tuned it out because Venli's constant whining made it difficult to empathize with her.
Yeah eshonai does constantly outshine her. The plot is more moved by her afterall. Venli is mostly faffing around until ulim comes by and even then most of her work is done in subterfuge with our understanding of what her actions cause.
I took it to be intentional because that's the kind of person you become when that's all you can hear from people who care about you.
These words are accepted
She worked hard to live up to her mother's high expectations and never could. Meanwhile her free-spirited older sister is off exploring the wilderness (just like they're father, who wandered off and never returned), but everyone loves her. It's no wonder Venli grew up bitter toward her sister or that things spiraled out of control.
She's guilty of some terrible things, but you can see the little steps that took her there. And she's *trying* to do better, without much guidance.
Speaking of Navani, she kinda grinds my gears saying “I’m not a scholar” over and over. Not my least liked character, and she does so great by the end of ROW, but sometimes I can’t take her internal dialogue.
Imposter syndrome, reinforced by a significant person in your life telling you that you aren’t good enough, aren’t worthy, aren’t important...can become internalized pretty easily. That is an example of Navani’s brokenness, and I can see how that could grate on someone who doesn’t identify with that struggle - particularly when you look at all the evidence that she absolutely is a scholar, and a good one. But oftentimes we can’t see our own strengths or even view them as weaknesses, so her internal monologue seems very real and true to me.
I (and based on other comments I've read here, I'm not alone) related quite hard to Navani's dialogue. In STEM fields it's really easy to fall into the trap that you're not good enough or that you're not a "real scientist"
Impostor syndrome is a bitch
Oh, I loved that. There's a lot of imposter syndrome in my industry, and not so much anymore but when i first started, there was a lot of women being told in more words or less that they weren't as respectable or talented as their male counterparts. So I related a *lot* to her "I'm not good enough" inner thoughts and seeing how they came in part from Gavilar.
Venli's faults are actually why she's one of my favorite characters. She's so interesting! I love that we get a Radiant perspective that's not just immediately on the same team as everyone else, but who has her own ideas of freedom and her own complicated motivations.
Zane for sure. He easily could have been fixed a little by making Elend always aware of Zane's existence and giving the reader a clue during the first book in conversations between Vin and Elend. I don't think there are any hints about Zane in the first book but I don't remember too well, Braize and all. To me, Zane feels like he was crammed into the story and I didn't enjoy scenes with him too much because of that. His chapters were all right but his existence for the plot felt forced.
"Braize and all" killed me
But the point was that straff was making a personal strike force that no one else could know about, he definitely would trust his 'idiot don't with that info
Yes but Brando could've made it work. Like so: Zane is close (or simply on good terms) with Elend, but secretly scheming with Straff. Brando is good, he could've figured out specifics to make it work and deliver the same story. My main problem with Zane is how forced he feels. But that's just me.
Definitely Zane. The only genuine misfire I feel like Brando has done. I know Zane has *some* fans, but overall, I really wish Brandon could somehow go and rewrite this dumb character. His entire interactions with Vin are cringe and his motivations are like something out of a book writer by a poor romance writer.
I just finished Mistborn Era 1 and WoA was definitely the weakest of the three for me, and I couldn’t really put my finger on why until I’d had some time to process the entire trilogy.
Zane makes WoA infinitely worse than it should be. He’s such a terrible character that he brings Vin down with him.
Like, in book 1, I liked Vin a lot. By the end of WoA I downright hated her. Then by the end of HoA I liked her again. Zane drags her entire character through the mud.
But what really irks me about him is I can see how he COULD have worked! I think the dynamic between Zane and Elend could have been explored in an interesting way. But it’s really barely ever touched upon. It’s almost INCIDENTAL that they’re brothers, like, Zane didn’t need to be Straff’s illegitimate son, and his character would still be basically the same.
I actually thought well of Ascension was the best one...IF it wasn't for Zane, he single-handedly dragged the book lower in quality due to his sheer force of cringe. As it is, it loses out to the final empire for my favorite spot.
Well Vivenna was a little annoying for the first half of WB. Really took me to the end of the book to warm up to her. I mean, I could kinda sympathize but her naivete was a little rough to get through.
Same. I found her super annoying
Yeah, she really bothered me. Even after her rough time on the street, her growth still felt a little cheap. At the end of the book I thought she was cool, but still not very likeable.
Yeah exactly. I liked her more in OB. I'm curious to see more of her
You know this seems to be a pretty popular opinion from Warbreaker, but I always was on the other side of the fence. Lightsong was my favorite, like most everyone else, but Vivenna was a close second for me. She just felt so real, and also had the most interesting growth. She is pretty unlikable at the beginning, but I feel there was a lot of intent behind that which made her story so satisfying for me. Seeing someone who is cocky and thinks they know everything that is happening be proven so wrong, and then have to rebuild and rediscover who they are as a person from rock bottom was a fascinating character study. And her interactions with Vasher are the highlight of the whole book for me. She also is the character that I have the most anticipation in discovering what the hellnis happening with their story in Stormlight Archive. Really need to see her find Vasher and whoop his ass for ditching her lol.
I hate vivenna in warbreaker until the last 5th of the book. Honestly I skipped her chapters in the reread. Enjoy her now but awful for most of it
Yeah, haven't reread WB so far but I know I won't look forward to her chapters. But who knows, maybe I will like them more than in my first read since I know what happens.
Big agree, don't hate her or anything but she felt like such a nothing character to me when Lightsong and Siri's plotlines were so great, I was rolling my eyes everytime she had a chapter. Actually did like her in SA though at least.
Kenton from White Sand. I don’t feel like he has much of a personality and >!in the scene right after the whole rest of his group, including his father, was just murdered, he starts cracking jokes like nothing even happened.!<
I want to say that was a defense mechanism, but honestly thats probably better suited for Aarik than Kenton.
Also I think Brando agrees with you
Straff Venture for being a vile and despicable being. There is nothing good about him.
But that's how you're supposed to feel about him.
Unpopular opinion: probably Raoden. Even the most despicable villain like Straff Venture or a morally gray monster like Taravangian are at least interesting characters. I don't join in on fuck Moash calls because yeah he's an asshole but damn it if I'm not glued to the page whenever he's the PoV character. I always liken it back to Tywin Lannister. An abbhorent person but easily the most interesting character in the series. So I wouldn't say I "hate" characters even if they are truly despicable as long as they are interesting.
Raoden was just so flat and boring. He's a full blown Mary Sue and I just never even worried for him. I knew he would magically fix anything that came at him by just being so darn likable that the evil guys just don't want to hurt him. He took any tension from the story for me. Boring is always more unforgivable than evil in a character and Raoden was a snooze-fest.
That being said I did thoroughly enjoy Elantris and several of the characters, just wish Raoden struggled a bit more.
Sarene and Hrathen are what got me through Elantris. Raoden was just so... boring. Which is an astounding feat considering he literally has an affliction that prevents painful wounds from healing. His chapters were only bearable because of the characters surrounding him.
I just disliked the way any obstacle disappeared the second he tried anything. You shouldn't be able to charm a power hungry gang lord into giving up everything they worked for in five minutes
You didn’t buy Aanden reverting to dreamy artist so suddenly? Karata’s acceptance seemed appropriate and Shaor never came around...
Honestly not really. Not that the transition wasn't believable but more it was how it was presented. Raoden did the equivalent of "just don't be sad" to a depressed person. Like he walks in states the obvious that anyone would have thought of and boom everything is better. It's also weird that he figured out the chasm thing when no one else could for ten years. And he does it in like a few weeks
Yeah, the transition for Aanden is definitely questionable, I agree. The chasm line epiphany I think can be explained sufficiently with Sarene’s comment about the geographical origins of the Aons and the way he was basically the only post-Reod Elantrian to even attempt to solve the problem. Any pre-Reod Elantrians who might have understood and fixed the issue earlier were destroyed (or at least turned into Hoed) before they had time to deal with the changes it necessitated, and the post-Reod Elantrians were too busy playing zombie apocalypse.
Scrolled down to find this, maybe unfair being Sandersons first book but Raoden is the least interesting protagonist he's made.
People are gonna hate on me for this, but Lift. I could barely make it through her chapters in Words of Radiance because it felt like a violent change of tone from a deep, thematic fantasy epic to a goofy YA adventure with humor that was *funny because it was random*. She’s gotten a bit less annoying in each appearance, especially in RoW, but that first interlude was the fly in the soup that was the otherwise-excellent Words of Radiance. I know a lot of people on here really like Lift and that’s ok, just her character and humor/narration style really detract from what I like about the series.
Same, I tolerated her in the interlude, then started Edgedancer and couldn't get past the first non interlude chapter. She was more tolerable at the end of Oathbringer and in Rhythm of War, so there's maybe hope she'll continue to grow up and improve.
I really like Edgedancers as an order so I want to see more representation, but if it's Lift... Ehh.
Same. I like her in third person but not first person. Tried listening to edgedancer and had to just read the chapter summaries.
I don’t like her either. I know her “curse” is stay the same (with the mind of a child but she still ages, I think?). Her powers are cool and the food thing is neat but what I think is supposed to be her snark/pluck is just annoying af.
In RoW I think we start to see some self-awareness, but idk if she’s supposed to grow beyond that in the series and I can’t say I’m interested enough in her story to find out tbh.
You’re the second most right, after the top post about Zane.
I skip Lift chapters. Her humor is unbearable.
Venli and Kaladin's dad in Stormlight. His dad began to redeem himself a little bit in RoW but he has a real long way to go for me. Honestly, he just strikes me as an uptight asshole who doesn't get it. Venli, on the other hand, looked way worse through RoW than she had in OB. She just seemed childish, petty, and selfish.
Spook was probably the weakest overall character in Era 1 Mistborn for me. But any of the 2nd generation Kandra also are probably amongst my least liked characters because there wants and desires didn't really align all that well in my headcanon.
I tend to not "dislike" characters that are intentionally written as villains so long as I can get it. 2nd Generation Kandra were some of the weaker baddies in Mistborn.
Here's the thing about Lirin: from his perspective, his one lapse in his moral code (taking the spheres) led to both Tien and Kaladin getting drafted into the army and then killed in the war. Kaladin then returned as a Radiant, but psychologically shattered by years of enslavement. And then between OB and RoW, Lirin sees the role of Radiant visibly take its toll on Kaladin--to the point where retiring and becoming a surgeon/helping the mentally ill is absolutely the best choice for Kal.
Lirin could hear all the tales of Kaladin the bodyguard and Kaladin the hero, but all he actually saw was the absence of his son when he thought Kal was dead. Then he wasn't dead, just enslaved and traumatized. Then suffering from PTSD right in front of him. Then, finally, happy when not fighting.
All of that sets up the tragedy of Kaladin being forced back into the fight with the Siege of Urithiru. Lirin said horrendous, inexcusable things to his son during that moment but I think we can at least understand how a decent man would get to the point of making that mistake.
> And then between OB and RoW, Lirin sees the role of Radiant visibly take its toll on Kaladin--to the point where retiring and becoming a surgeon/helping the mentally ill is absolutely the best choice for Kal.
This is a very fair assessment. RoW is next on my re-read list before I finally move on to a new series for the next while so I'll bear that in mind next read through. The way Lirin treated his son really rubbed me the wrong way throughout the entirety of his "present day", so even if his mentality was shown at times, it felt overshadowed by how he consistently demeans his son, which was hard to overlook for me. But, I am open to looking at it through a different lens this next time through.
Sounds excellent. To be clear--his treatment of Kaladin is for sure bad, but I think it only becomes outright inexcusable after the occupation begins and he starts saying shit like "I have no son" and generally demeaning Kaladin's choices, as you mentioned.
Still, one of the biggest lessons that Stormlight has reinforced, I feel, is an attempt to understand why a person might feel the way they do--not excuse their actions, but comprehend their motivations. Even we can understand why Lirin was angry at Kaladin's choices, it doesn't absolve him for doing the wrong thing.
But I think the fact that he has realized his mistakes by the end of the book is a huge step--if we can give Dalinar some sympathy after committing war crimes because he's willing to change, I think we can give Lirin the chance to grow as well.
Oh don't get me wrong, he can redeem himself. It's very easy to pick on characters in SA because their arcs have *not* been completed. Lirin(hell even Moash)can have an interesting redemption(or villainous) arcs that would work for me. The characters I've noted aren't because they are villains or good guys, just because they didn't feel right as characters when I'm reading them. Moash is at least interesting. But Venli and Lirin were not only dislikable, but boring to boot from my perspective.
Still, they have plenty of time to make up for it. I *hated* the Shallan chapters until late book 2-early book 3, but I really enjoy them now.
I thought Spook's story in book 3 was really interesting, but I can agree with you on 1&2. I definitely agree on the gen 2 kandra though.
I'll give you that, his story in book 3(and his legend growing in Era 2) was pretty good.
I'm really hoping we get a real substantial Spook story down the line. We're likely to get at least something, but i can't help but feel like there's at least a novella worth of Spook story after he becomes Cosmere aware.
I'll never understand the Lirin hate. He was dealt a terrible hand, and still does everything in his power to help, and never hurt anyone, including enemies. He just wants the world to be a better place. He's a good man.
> He was dealt a terrible hand, and still does everything in his power to help, and never hurt anyone, including enemies.
Never hurt anyone except his own son by demeaning his choices and frequently putting his son down non stop. He might have meant well, but he was the one who chose to act the way he did and not support his son in a positive manner.
Because his son he loved was essentially dead, and all that was left was a person that went against everything he believed in. He toes the line in RoW with how he mistreats Kal at certain points, but it's because he has become the exact thing he spends his life opposing. That would be terrible to see as a father.
He indiscriminately crosses the line over and over again in RoW. Disowns his son at the time of one of his greatest needs.
Edit: I never said he wasn't a good man, but thankfully this is a thread about least likeable. He acts like a prick, refuses to see any other point of view, and consistently belittles his son. He did mean well for the most part and he is an ethical man. But he's also just not very likeable first read through on RoW. He's at a point in the story where he can make a very good character arc, but up to this point, he's certainly not likeable from my perspective.
He's pacifistic and non-interventionist to a ridiculous degree that makes him feel more like a caricature than a real person. Add to that him being a pretty big jerk to our protagonist, who is also his son, and I'd say the hate is pretty understandable.
Hahaha. I read that as meaning “the father of both Kaladin and Venli” at first b/c of the missing comma. Couldn’t figure out where you got the idea those two were half-siblings. Just had a talk with someone else about the impact commas can have, so this was especially apropos.
Awww I love Spook. I love that he’s this super awkward gangly teenager who kinda realizes he has super powers and just goes for it. You kinda don’t notice that he’s grown up a bit until he’s leaping through burning buildings.
I actually don't know if I don't like him other than I feel like he's kind of boring until book 3. Just felt like one of the weaker, less interesting characters in Mistborn. So I don't think I'm really being fair to Spook.
Sadeas and Ialai. Not because I dislike them. Quite the opposite in fact. I really liked them, and hate how they just got power crept out. Imagine how scary they could have been teamed up with Taravangian. There better be some serious consequences for the Kholins. I don't think there will be though
I haven't finished Bands of Mourning, but I REALLY don't like Wayne. His attitude is so often inappropriate given the situation, and I HATE how he treats Steris. The bit with the water tower at the beginning of the book was positively infuriating.
Lift, personally. Even though I don’t mind how “clean” sanderson’s books are, I struggle with Lift being a little too YA. Basically when I recommend the books to people Lift and lopen are the only ones in stormlight that I hope don’t put people off of the books
Who the hell doesn’t like Lopen?
Lopen is hysterical precisely because exactly zero people in the story think he's funny.
Meanwhile us readers applaud his antics. Even Sanderson gave him a hand.
Okay, dad, that's enough.
Sorry I guess I’m out on a limb here
I don't really like Lopen, I find him quite annoying most of the time. Not my humor.
Feel like it’s trying a little too hard. Maybe that’s his schtick but it just never hits for me personally.
I agree, Lift seems so out of place among all the other characters and really off putting to me.
I figured lopen was the kind of guy who takes nothing seriously because he's been beaten that much or its just his coping mechanism.
I’m a total Sanderson enjoyer so I don’t want to be critical of his writing, I just personally don’t enjoy lopen as much as his other characters. I like how accessible his works are to people of many ages, but Lopen feels a little more silly than I prefer. I get almost a “well written Jar-Jar” vibe from him lol
I want to be mad at this. Especially because I will now hear "Mee-sa The Lopen" EVERY. GD. TIME.
But it's a little too accurate for me to hate.
I’m kinda with you here. I get what Brando was going for but Lopen is a bit overdone sometimes.
Lift’s a kid though isn’t she just written to act like a kid? It’d feel so weird if she just acted like Dalinar all the time.
And disrespecting the Lopen? :(
I feel like she acts maybe too much like a kid from a Disney universe? She acts like child Aladdin the street urchin when we kind of expect a somewhat darker tone (people die, you don't meet princesses in the market, you get beaten or sold if you're caught stealing), and I have to wonder how someone can be right in the thick of it and read like a 'LoL xD I'M so RaNDom' tumblr blog. It might just be that the island she came from was a gentler place, but when there's kids like the boy with the injured foot who visits Ym, it just seems a bit strange for Lift to be so carefree.
I found Lopen a bit strange when he was introduced for the same reason; everyone else is depressed while this one guy is somehow special and can just go with the flow. Even Rock is resigned to dying there and he seems mentally strong. But perhaps Lopen would have changed if he were to somehow survive an actual bridge run. But I've never found his character annoying or jarring like with Lift.
The only time I've found this kind of character working in the Cosmere is with Wayne, since Era 2 Scadrial seems like it's gentle enough for the general populace to allow quirky people to survive and even thrive.
Lift irks because she's a stick in the mud for a series all about change. It's more jarring than other characters who struggle with change. Lift feels... Pointedly ignorant and I'm sure Brando has a good story to tell with her, but so far (esp her earlier appearances in ED and OB) she is irksome.
How far have you read?
Her resistance towards changing is absolutely appropriate in a series about change.
I enjoy her chapters when she's not just griping, but I do sympathize with people who don't enjoy her. Being specifically written a certain way doesn't automatically make that way entertaining or enjoyable.
I'm caught up and enjoyed her way more in RoW than the last 2. I agree it's appropriate but contend that it's jarring nonetheless.
Man, once I got chewed out because I mentioned that her use of awesome was too jarring because it’s modern slang.
Yes, I understand that it’s actually quite an old word. But now it is modern slang, and she is using it as such. It just feels too... off. And she constantly pulls me out of the story.
She’s getting better, and I like the direction her character development is going. And I like a lot of aspects of her character. I want to like her. But she still bugs me.
Awesome, is originally a religious word. With Lift's past it's no wonder she thinks she is awesome.
Perhaps this is an unpopular opinion, but I like when characters in a fantasy setting speak modern, colloquial English.
Although that applies to ALL characters. If just one character speaks that way, while everyone else speaks more formally, then yeah, it’s jarring.
But in general that’s something I like about Sanderson, his characters tend to speak in a modern, naturalistic style. Not every fantasy novel needs to have characters speaking pseudo-Elizabethan.
I don’t really care how they speak as long as it makes sense. I love Dresden Files; Harry speaks like a snarky jerk, and the different magical creatures speak in ways appropriate to their age and standing and whatnot.
But if one little girl randomly calls herself awesome and comes up with her own starvin’ slang, when there’s already a method of speaking that you’ve gotten used to, it’s off-putting.
To be fair, her slang is probably Reshi; we haven't seen much of the Isles or their culture, apart from a few upper-class representatives.
Ene from Elantris. Just no depth at all IMO. Wasn't a huge fan of the writing style of Elantris in general but storms she was painful.
I hate soooo much Venli, I couldn't stand reading her in the other books, I hated her in RoW, I couldn't stand her every time I saw a flashback chapter of her, the only time I could stand her was in the present moment in Urithriru, hardly tho, but yeah, i get that the idea of her was kinda like that, just like with Straff and Zane, i don't think the idea was hating her but disliking her, but...
Honestly, hated Vivenna. No problem with Azure though.
Eh... You just reminded me that after reading Warbreaker I must reread the whole Zahel's plot in SA, not mentioning the same thing with Ghostbloods after reading Mistborn... Dammit, I loved unraveling such a long books, but rereading the thing would be a nightmare. SA is not a good starting point, at last. one at least needs to stop after the first book and go through the rest of Cosmere...
Lirin. Self-righteous to a fault. Stereotypical disappointed dad character whose philosophy makes no sense and gets in Kaladin's way.
I loved Lirin, thought he augmented Kaladin's arc really well. Most authors right off the bat are like "okay I have a protagonist, their parents are dead." It's actually insane if you think about it how rare it is for main characters to have parents that are shown alive or impacted the MC's lives, considering how in real life our parents are our #1 influencers. But to each their own, of course.
So definitely fuck Moash, but he's such a great villain and interesting character! I love to hate him lol.
Do you have anything to add Fuck Moash Bot?
Definitely. Though I am curious if there is some redemption thing going on. I was kinda disappointed when Amaram, quite idealistic, just not having good moral ground, got transformed into a monster and died. I hope there will be some major change in Moash, an he will be one of the main good characters for some last 2 books.
Don't really think it's gonna happen though. Not while knowing Brando's style...
Maybe he will just turn good at the end of 10th book and die off right after doing something heroic
Or, knowing Brando, he will just do something *completely* unexpected, as any thing I considered predictable always turned upside down and sideways at the end
I wouldn't really like to see that. I'm tired of the popular love for redemption arcs these days. Moash hasn't presented himself as someone who is open to one, and I think it would seem forced or cliched with him. I'm not saying I don't think he could become less extreme, but I don't want to see him change his ideology or have any big heroic deeds.
I see 2 good possibilities for Moash. He burns out and goes 'home' essentially disappearing from the story while not fundamentally changing or he dies a villain (possibly willingly or semi-suicidally)
Amaram was one of my main disappointments in Oathbringer. Why build him up as such a grey character with high moral, but low ways of acting through, if you will just make a stereotypical villain? I really hoped he could become something better. The way he died feels just... bland.
Yeah... and there was some quote from Brando, like how much he wanted to expose the truly monstrous Amaram's self... And... I mean.... Mormons, they are Christians, right? How could he just write him off as a bad guy...
Every Lift chapter grates me. RoW was fine with her, but only because she was barely in it.
Yeah I’m not a fan of her either. I think the sections are well written in the POV of a child, which is part of the problem for me
As of now, it is a tie between Sadeas and Amaram for me.
To pirate from other media, "The deepest circle of Hell is reserved for betrayers and mutineers."
I *hate* the both of them for their trampling over the lives of others, the way they act as if the hopes, dream, and values of those people mean nothing in the face of their self-serving desires.
(Other characters, like Straff Venture, are close runners-up for similar reasons.)
Well, I am definitely sure that the majority of people here will choose Moash, Amaram and Sadeas, but am I the only one here who finds Lift annoying? I don't really get why people like her. Sure, her part in OB was remarkable, but I can't stand her. Her abrasiveness really grinds my gears. I mean, sure she is just a child, but damnation, I don't think I can tolerate her behavior.
She’s a kid who grew up on the streets and had a really rough life. She begs the Nightwatcher not to let her grow up because she always wants to be the girl her mother would remember. It’s heartbreaking. And much the same way Shallan’s personality fractured because of her upbringing, Lift forces herself to be as childish as possible so as not to have to face where she came from. I think she’s written super well
>Her abrasiveness really grinds my gears.
Sounds like you need some slicking Awesomeness.
Sounds like a stinking Lamespren to me
I’m kinda with you there. Her narration and humor style gave me a headache to read. She’s gotten a bit better as the series has gone on though and hopefully we’ll have some better context for her later on.
Wayne. His humor feels forced to me, and he's *always* joking. Comic relief is just annoying when there no relief from the comedy.
Also the "bandit who won't use a gun" is a pretty tired trope imo.
Agree. And also his obsession with Ranette (who is one of my favourites from era 2) and an entire chapter dedicated to how he finally got over his obsession just seemed entirely useless tbh.
Yeah. The Wayne pov chapters didn't really land for me either.
If you have a character whose whole concept is false-facing the world, it becomes that much more important to build up the inner core, the "deep waters" that perhaps only the reader ever truly sees. That way, when the inner core pokes up above the surface for air you get that "aha" moment of recognition which brings you closer to the character and reinforces the idea that they're a real person.
We never really get that moment with Wayne and as a result he feels like a hollow shell. He doesn't really have any core personality underpinning besides "doesn't like guns" and "funny man". Even his most dramatic moments don't expand things much beyond telling us *why* he doesn't like guns.
The part that made me really dislike him was when he ruined Wax's 1st marriage attempt with Steris.
What a fucking dick move
To me, Wayne is insufferable until he goes into a different persona. Who ever he’s faking as is waaaay more bearable than him.
I think Wayne's humor falls flat most of the time. Though I can write a lot of that off because it seems like everyone else in the story is pretty annoyed by him too. I still think he's an interesting character, just not a fan of his dialog.
In general, I think Sanderson tends to try a bit too hard with some of his "quirky comic relief" characters (Lopen, Wayne, Lift, etc). They can definitely be amusing at times, and I appreciate the deeper layers of character development that some have received, but oftentimes their antics are too silly/ridiculous to actually be believable as a real person, and not an artificial device.
Controversial pick, I know, but my dislike of Hoid is less about Hoid and more about how the fandom acts about him. I find Hoid to be uninteresting. I don't care about whatever scheme he has going on and of the forthcoming books Sanderson has talked about, I don't care at all about Dragonsteel. My dislike of Hoid would just be apathy, after all he rarely does anything except show up and be cryptic, but everyone talking about how interesting and mysterious he is just makes me dislike him more and more.
I wish I can upvote this a 100 times. He just feels like a side character to me, but the fandom treats him like the protagonist when we don't even know his (whole) backstory or future plans. His appearance all over cosmere just feels aimless. Hopefully, all of these will tie up nicely in the upcoming books.
100% agree. Hoid is funny and does some interesting things (I really enjoy his scenes in WoK) and I'm sure he will be more compelling in the future, but the fandom obsession with him is intolerable
I don’t remember WoR that well, but the way he shows up in OB to help Shallan and then RoW to help Kaladin seemed a little too out of nowhere (can’t think of how else to describe it). His interactions before were sparse and cryptic (and I liked it) but then when he began showing to basically guide these characters by the hand, it really cheapened the character for me.
Idk if there’s supposed to be a magical reason for the right time/right place (like a luck metal for allomancy) but the more i see him doing stuff like that the less excited i am to see him.
“X is struggling, I wonder how they’ll pull through.”
“X is better now, enlightened or resolved.”
Seriously. What is everyone's obsession with him?? He's fine as background character but sheesh.
> Hoid is less about Hoid and more about how the fandom acts about him.
Fandom is terrible. Always. Get enough people together and it always descends to madness.
* Doctor Who fans who are rabid about the best/worst doctor.
* Harry Potter is the most original book ever written!!!11!
* Buffy fans?
Hoid is best in small doses imo, as a kind of guarantee that what you're reading is going to be important in the overall cosmere, and a cool little easter egg for dedicated fans of the series. I don't think he's especially compelling by himself, though, and I'd like him more if we saw a liiittle bit more of what he's doing. It's hard to get excited about a character when I know it's gonna be 20 years until I find out absolutely anything about them.
Hoid in the early phases of the cosmere is the only person with any real knowledge. He is the stand in for Brandon similar to how many MCs are stand ins for the reader.
What most other readers you are prob referring to are looking at is how the universe works from the one character who seems to understand. He isn't just cryptic for its own sake considering that he has played a way more direct role on roshar than any other planet
10/10 Shallan. One of the worst characters ever put the page.
Shallan was pretty irritating in the first book, but she's grown on me since. I can get why you wouldn't like her, though.
Haha, I’m the other way around. I liked Shallan a lot in the first 2 books, but I really didn’t enjoy her chapters much after that, especially in RoW.
Same for me. She was okay in WoK, I loved her in WoR and it became irritating in OB. Eventually I kinda started to dislike her chapters in RoW and hope it will get better soon.
Maybe because I can't really identify with her split persona stuff. But especially RoW felt repetitive to me with "something happens and shallan hides"
Well, I got it the other way round... Well, at first I didn't know anything about her, only got the story unfolding, but after... WoR, I think, from an interesting position she went a bit down
I’m with you. I found Shallan witty and interesting, and I thought it was neat seeing her learn about the world. I could even go along with the Veil split because yeah, you’re getting into character, cool cool I get it. But then Radiant comes along and Shallan does nothing but whine about how she’s not Radiant and... yeah, it’s downhill from there.
Hopefully book 5 will be better. At least her story is interesting.
Yeah, this split was the thing that chilled her to me. Exactly the same with Veil - impersonating is good when you need acting, but when it transformed into some serious personality split, I didn't like it much
I got pretty tired of her personality shtick really fast. Veil was neat back when it was just an alter ego, but Radiant is just excessive and each new step is just... I don't know. It's just misery-porn.
It's the same with Kaladin. I like him, definitely my favorite character early on and his good moments are still amazing. But I can only read so many paragraphs about how miserable they are and how much they hate themselves. It's off-putting.
I like Shallan up until RoW and then it’s just... wtf mate get a grip
I can't wait for the 10th book and see how she realize that she killed Brandon
Ah yes, being physically and emotionally abused and manipulated your entire childhood. And when trying to face memories your mind literally forced you to forget, your personality completely shatters.
Duh just get a grip LMAO
For me, Shallan was some of the most obnoxious character writing in RoW. It felt like we lost all of the progress she made in Oathbringer for the first like 70% of the book. She was one of my favorite characters in the first three books, and in RoW she just devolved into this annoying one-note mess. Her chapters and Venli's flashback chapters were my least favorite parts of the book.
I don’t think she was physically abused, her brothers were, but it was always notes that her father never laid a finger on her and would beat the maids instead, apart from maybe one time.
I get the whole mental health part is important for some people but it wasn’t exciting or captivating. Felt like a necessary part you had to get through to get back to the Urithiru parts.
The last part when she got a grip was decent, but could have been a lot less dragged out and would have felt better.
She has DID or OSDD which can only be caused by early childhood trauma and lack of attachment to caretakers. So she had a traumatic childhood even if she wasn’t physically abused (which isn’t the only type of abuse).
Straff Venture is the most one dimensional villain we've gotten. He's evil to be evil.
Szeth, it’s ironic given my preferred Radiant order, but I just can’t stand his constant angst and self loathing and his situation is just too outlandish for me too sympathize with.
Moash. He’s the only one with a dedicated subreddit to let you know how most people feel about him. r/fuckmoash indeed.
I thought Kaladin's dad, Lirian? was annoying. Brandon could have that dialog down a whole lot, it was very redundant.
I dislike WOK flashback Kalidan. I don't really know why. I just want to punch him in the face. I'm on my third read through now and I gave myself permission to skip the flashbacks in WOK. The book improved.
Moash because fuck Moash
Because, fuck moash (figuratively)
Keep in mind I haven't read RoW, so I'm not sure if my current opinion would change. But, all mine are from SA.
The low-hanging fruits are Moash... and Tarvignan (I don't remember the correct spelling). Also, anytime Lift is onscreen, I can't stand her. I think it's because she's basically a child who refuses to grow up AND thinks she's better than half the adults- or at least enjoys being a pain in the ass.
What, when you were a teenager you didn't think that all the adults were dumb and that you understood everything about the world? Lift always strikes me as a very accurate kid, stuck in a world of adults and desperately wanting to remain like she was, rather than what she thinks/fears she might become.
Either Moash, Amaram or Sadeas 👎 i don't think i need to say why i don't like those traitors...
Of protagonists? Probably Adolin. Just... I was Shalladin type, and also I don't much like him. But it isn't that I hate him. The question is "least favorite..."
Most of the characters I really dislike I would put in the love to hate category for him. I really appreciate how well crafted his villains typically are and interesting. So my least favorite characters would be the generally forgettable ones. The people who show up enough that you should remember who they are but have either blended into a group like some of the less well developed members of Bridge 4 (although Dawnshard surprised me when he made me love Huio), or the various high princes and nobles who were in multiple scenes but were still a bit forgettable. Not that it's a bad thing it's inevitable but there are are the forgettable characters given how many he has.
Honor, not even entirely sure why, but he always stood out to me as dumb
A lot of you are going to kick my butt for this, but I could not *stand* Rysn when I read her POV. She seemed way too closed-minded and judgmental to be a worldly trader. I don’t doubt that she ended up being crucial to the plot, but her personality could have been a lot less grating.
Unpopular Opinion: My least favorite is Hoid. His antics don't resonate with me or his manner of speech/POV. I don't know, just doesn't fit for me... With that probably Lift too. I couldn't even pick up her Novella because I don't enjoy her chapters that much.
Nightblood. The character is funny and interesting, especially in Warbreaker. However, it is a bit too powerful and a bit of a Deus ex Machina in Rhythm of War.
SPOILERS ROW BELOW.
Need a connection severed? Hit it with Nightblood.
Chip a Honorblade? (!) Nightblood
Kill a Vessel? Nightblood
Probably Elend and Raoden for me. They’re both pretty flat characters. Shallan can be a little tiresome for me as well, but I understand her purpose.
Tien sucks and I'm glad he's dead.
I view Tien more as a mechanical part of the story than a character. He's Kaladin's motivation, rather than a living, breathing character.